What to buy next.

[DarkGuard]

It was just an honest question, a lot of your statements just seemed to be "compared to heavy bolter stats" etc, I was just wondering if you'd used them and how you found.

 

If I'm being honest I don't use Whirlwinds, and I'm going off one shot weapons a bit, so would prefer a dakka pred. But I still feel there are situations where the Whirlwind would be more beneficial. Also, I'm pretty Orks don't have so many outflankers or fast anti-tank to get round cover and hit the Whirlwind's side armour, so that could be worth considering for the OP.

 

My own comment was for Rhinos and a Drop Pod, but I also like to give every unit a chance, no matter what others said. If I didn't I wouldn't be using Honour Guard and 10 man Tactical Terminator squads, two of my favourite units.

[Oppressor]

That's what I meant by ignore them under a blanket statement.

 

But yeah, Ithink the whirlwind would actually perform worse against orks because it would then be only wounding half the models it's pieplate is lucky enough to cover. If other people are getting better scatters than I did or are playig against people that don't spread their troops out, I can see it doing better. My experience with it versus Mikey is that it was pretty much a waste as he had his troops spread out, and so many of them that losing 2-5 at a time from the whirlwind was nothing.

 

The whirlwind really really really needs better missiles.

[meatball]

@ Opressor: I think you have expectations that the whirlwind should perform similarly to a vindicator i.e. lay a big template and many models die. That is not the whirlwind's point in a marine army as they do not kill models by the numbers. Whirlwinds are used to force pinning checks and dislodge units off objectives not kill them outright.

 

ON: Versus Orks, whirlwinds work due to the fact that you may fire at backfield lootas and if their numbers won't provide them with fearless, you have a chance of pinning them. If the Orks decide to mechanise then they have a max of 12 models in a trukk.If the trukk is removed from play all you have to do is kill two models and they are susceptible to pinning.

 

However, the most important piece of advice I can give is not to custom build your army to defeat his army. Especially if he is your mate, you both want to have fun and this means winning some, loosing some. You would not wat your mate to hate playing you just because he knows he stands little chance to your blast/ template heavy army.

[MagicMan]

I dunno... At smaller points levels, its entirely reasonable to load up on flamers/whirlwinds if you're fighting horde Orks.

[Oppressor]

@ Opressor: I think you have expectations that the whirlwind should perform similarly to a vindicator i.e. lay a big template and many models die. That is not the whirlwind's point in a marine army as they do not kill models by the numbers. Whirlwinds are used to force pinning checks and dislodge units off objectives not kill them outright.

I don't see how a pieplate only lobbing artillery piece can not be viewed as supposed to to able to lay waste to chunks of infantry. Pinning is only an rules bonus. You cannot dislodge units if you pin them. You cannot dislodge units if you fail to kill enough of them. If you want to rout units you send in flamers assault weapons and troops.

 

ON: Versus Orks, whirlwinds work due to the fact that you may fire at backfield lootas and if their numbers won't provide them with fearless, you have a chance of pinning them. If the Orks decide to mechanise then they have a max of 12 models in a trukk.If the trukk is removed from play all you have to do is kill two models and they are susceptible to pinning.

Pinning is wortheless if they aren't dead or running off the board, it's a stay of execution. If orks mechanize then a whirlwind is still worthless because it can't reliable hurt their vehicles and their squad sizes are now small enough to not be worth giant pie plates since everything else in your army can waste a 12boy squad onec their trukk is destroyed.

 

However, the most important piece of advice I can give is not to custom build your army to defeat his army. Especially if he is your mate, you both want to have fun and this means winning some, loosing some. You would not wat your mate to hate playing you just because he knows he stands little chance to your blast/ template heavy army.

This is soo true and awesome. It really is what we should be focusing on. It is exactly why I also suggest razorbacks and land speeders.

[Tranc]

I just wanted to chime in and say my Whirlwind is usually a strong performer for me. It's been a game winner for me against Eldar, Tau & Imperial Guard. Against marine equivalent armies it may under perform, but I think it would be an asset against Orks. Pinning is not worthless, because a pinned Ork unit can't advance and you really want to keep them at arms length (or several arms lengths).

[DarkGuard]

Ork units are Fearless if 11 models and over (?) though, so the pinning won't work on them until they are reduced to below that number. Often by the time they're at a number they are pinned they are commonly below half strength or near to that and so it would be better to just use mass removal tools. So blasts and/or RoF. The Whirlwind, dakka pred and TFC are all contenders for this, and all have some use outside of playing Orks, depending on strategy and army being played.

 

@oppressor. thanks for clarifying.

[Muctar]

So the razorback and a whirlwind. My roomie also has expressed the desire to create a evil sunz biker gang. Do I counter this eventuality with devastators?

For the OP:

 

I would buy the razorback kits for the same reasons previously mentioned, and a pod for your dreadnought. Giving your army more mobility and dynamic deployment options will help you against any player you face, including your friend's orks.

 

In relation to the debate that most of the thread has been about:I've never used a whirlwind before but I can see its merits, especially against orks.

 

As for devastators I think they are always a good buy when starting to build an army. Four missile launchers is a great all-rounder that you can never go wrong with, but you can experiment with the other weapons as well to find out what you like best.

[DarkGuard]

I second the Devs as well actually. Though I find it best to view the box as a "Heavy weapons set" rather than a "Devs set". Combined with the masses of missile launchers you're likely to procure from Tactical squad boxes, plus the different heavy weapons options you may want to use on Tacticals, don't be afraid to use the missile launchers from your Tactical squads for Devs and the Dev weapons in Tactical squads. But regardless of whether you use it as a Dev squad or not, it's a fantastic buy for getting those weapons, plus a power fist for upgrading your other squads.

[Sons of the Forge]

I play WhirlWinds and Devs ALOT they make up 99% of all my Heavy Support that I own besides a single TFC and to be honest I dont miss nor wish for either a predator, vindi or raider because the Heavy Support I have does quite well plus a WW looks cool and because its never played so much I find being able to fire without LoS can be quite annoying for enemy players. Overal I highly rate WWs and Devs Missile Launchers and Plasma cannons.

[Oppressor]

OP, do yourself a favor and save yourself some money. Don't buy a whirlwind. Take any of the other options that anyone has posted. They will be far more usefull versus more armies including orks. If the whirlwind gets some lovin next codex then go for it, but as it is now, it is not a good next purchase for you. Later on in your army building if you want to pick one up just because to round out your collection in general and use in who cares who wins games, go for it, but not as someone just starting out looking for reliable purchases that will support them in all their pursuits.

[Warp Wraith]

First off, thanks for the replies guys. Now, my next question is how should I arm my tac squads? I have two vanilla reach squads, but it seems the "normal" tac squads have a truckload of guns. Should I specialize each squad or spread the gear around/should I buy more tac squads? I'm dead set on getting the razorback and drop pod, so this is the final post before I order them. If anyone has any misgivings about these this is the time. Thanks for the immense amount of space marine love!

[DarkGuard]

I prefer to focus my Tactical squads when I equip them, but only to an extent. That extent is giving the Sergeant a combi-weapon (and combi-weapon only) that matches the special weapon they carry. Most of the time, due to staying in Rhinos, limited game turns and possibility of being charged etc you'll only fire your special weapon once or twice, and so therefore the one-shot combi isn't that bad a deal, especially as in that one critical game turn it near doubles the output of the Tactical squad (as the special is typically where a lot of their killing power comes from).

 

What special they have though, is defined through their role. While Tactical Marines can be used as your main hard-hitting units, that's not really their purpose. Rather, they are better as support units for the elite units in your army. Therefore, equip them with a special that fills in any weaknesses in your army. Lacking anti-infantry, take the flamer. Need more anti-tank, then take the meltagun. Or need a bit of both and/or dedicated anti-elite, take the plasma gun. And then combi to match. I find that following this really helps make Tacticals useful in the army rather than 400pt tax to play the game.

 

However, they should also be versatile, though this is best in their heavy weapon. A lot of the time you'll be moving them to get the most out of your special, so won't be able to fire the heavy. Therefore, make the heavy do something they can't. Meltaguns? Gives them a missile launcher or plasma cannon for range and some anti-infantry (suppose you could include heavy bolter as well). Flamers? Pick the missile launcher or multi-melta for anti-tank. There are some exceptions of course. Plasma goes well with pretty much any heavy weapon, although it is perfect with multi-meltas. Same range, broad range of targets but also similar targets, it's a great combo. Also long-range means its good for objective camping squads alongside longer-ranged weapons.

 

The big thing to keep in mind, especially when deciding a transport, is whether you want them to combat squad or not. If you will always do so, then you need to fit that into your game plan, especially for KP missions, and make sure your heavy weapon is ranged (ie. no MM). Other than that you don't need to worry about special/heavy synergy much. If you never want to combat squad (so in Rhino) then you need to really think about the synergy, you need to get the most out of it. For example MM Tactical squads tend to always stay together, and want to push forward, often coupled with flamers and plasmas for range of targets.

 

Finally, if your squad is sitting back, or even if you have a squad pushing forward its nice to have options. I run with a combi-melta/meltagun/plasma cannon squad in a Rhino and a combi-plasma/plasma gun/lascannon squad with a las/plas Razorback. I fully expect to run the former as a forward unit, hence the Rhino, meaning I don't have to combat squad them to fit them in the Rhino. The latter can always operate as a 10 man squad at range, and so I expect to not put them in the Razorback. But in games where it's beneficial for me (ie. not KPs and lots of objectives), I can combat squad both effectively. What I'm saying is it's best to leave yourself the option to effectively combat squad or not, so if taking a Rhino make sure they can do well going forward as a whole, when taking a Razorback make sure they can do well sitting back as a whole.

 

That pretty much covers all the guns you'll get in the box and Dev squad. A note on combat weapons, Tactical Marines aren't combat units, they don't do well there, and it's often better to spend points on shooty upgrades for them and left over points elsewhere. But, in some units it can work (power fist assisting melta in taking down tanks), while in armies that trade out combat tactics (preventing Tactical squads from running away from combat), it can be handy as you're likely to be stuck in combat for a while, especially in Stubborn lists. So special weapons are defined by what else is in your list (commonly, it can work the other way around). Heavy weapons are typically defined by the special weapons and any transport you have. Combat weapons are defined slightly be role, slightly by HQ choices.

 

But if in doubt, there's nothing wrong with the basic Tactical squad flamer and missile launcher. It may be better to slowly add the other weapons as you encounter something new, or need something else done, slowly tweaking your list to get the most out of them. If you can, I'd recommend making up all the special and heavy weapon options you can, giving you the ability to swap them in and out. And if you find you don't use some, they can be used in Command squads, Sternguard and Dev squads instead.

[Oppressor]

Pretty much what Darkguard said with the only exception being don't worry about special weapons or upgrading your sgts based off of what you said you have and will be buying. Later on as you buy more stuff that will come in handy but right now you do not have the pieces to make that stuff, so I would concentrate on the heavy weapons since you do have the ability to freely change out those.

 

Because of that I would definately suggest another tactical squad because then you actually have more bodies to model with other or all your heavy weapons and be able to switch them out as you want or need to. Between the devastator squad and the actual tactical squad, you will also have more sgt upgrade options and special weapons options as well.

[Warp Wraith]

All right, here is my tentative buylist:

x1 Razorback

x1 Drop Pod

x1 Tactical Terminator squad

x1 Tactical squad

x1 Devastator squad

 

What do you guys think?

[DarkGuard]

Looks fine to me. With the Termintor squad I'd make one up as a cyclone missile launcher, 2 as power fist and storm bolters, and 2 as a chainfist and storm bolter. Reason being you already have a Sergeant in the Black Reach set, and there were not chainfists in that set. Then, if you can get your hands on another CML, it's rather easy to stick it on top of a random storm bolter model and you have a 10 man Terminator squad with 2 chainfists and 2 CMLs, good unit with good firepower, combat ability, ability to handle hordes, light tanks, heavy tanks etc.

 

Don't glue the top of the Razorback so you can swap between a Rhino and Razorback.

 

And make the rest up normally, remember to look on the Dev squad not as a Dev squad, but as a heavy weapons kit.

[Oppressor]

I think the list looks good. The devastators and tactical squad will give you more bodies and options to model different weapons, the razorback and drop pod give you more tactical choices and manueverability, and I actually like tactical terminators, they're a good unit IMO.

[circus1943]

What kind of tops does a Razorback use? I bought a Rhino before I read this thread. I got some other great advice from here on what to buy next aswell! My friend also plays Orks. The other guy play Imperial Guard.

[DarkGuard]

Same top as the Pred, just inverted. The Pred side of the top has a raised bit for the weapon to go on and a grill, the Razorback one is flat and has two tiny hatch doors. It's one piece, that fits on the top of the Rhino chassis where the Rhino top hatch does. So glue the Rhino hatch doors together but not to the hull, and you can swap out. And, if you don't use sponsons, you can even use it as a with the right weapons, and as has been said, a Whirlwind.

[circus1943]

Ah, cool! Thanks. :)

[VoteForPedro]

Bit late to the party here but my thoughts are:

 

1: As mentioned above, avoid list tailoring. If anything else, you'll likely get an itch to play other players and then your tailored anti Ork force won't be a lot of use. Which brings me to...

2: Whirlwinds are a bit lacking when it comes to Heavy Support choices. They are half ok at one job (killing mass clumped up infantry) and a bit rubbish at everything else. Personally I would prefer choices that can perform a few tasks, which brings me to (there is a theme here!)

3: Predators! The stock standard Predator at 85 points with Autocannon and Heavy Bolters will both kill infantry well and has decent odds at annoying light armour. These things rock. I would avoid the Lascannon options though as they get crazy expensive.

 

For Tac marines you cannot go too far wrong with the basic Flamer and Missile launcher. It's free, it's good. If you have a need to take lascannons Tactical marines do this much cheaper than Devastators. If you are thinking of combat squading the backfield heavy weapon a Razorback becomes more appealing potentially than a Rhino.

 

For reference, my 1500 all comers list is:

 

HQ

Pedro Kantor

 

Elite

 

10 Sternguard

Power Fist, 2 Lascannons, combi meltas, Rhino

 

Troops

 

Tactical Squad

Power Fist, Multi Melta, Melta Gun, Rhino

Tactical Squad

Power Fist, Multi Melta, Melta Gun, Rhino

 

Fast Attack

 

Land Speeder Typhoon, Heavy Bolter

Land Speeder Typhoon, Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy Support

 

Devastator Squad (5) 4 Missile Launchers

 

Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

 

(As an easy swap sometimes I drop Pedro for a basic Librarian and then grab a Lascannon/Plasma Gun Razorback for the Devastator Squad which is very handy for Dawn of War missions.)

[Warp Wraith]

Out of curiosity, what is classified as "light" armor?

[Warp Wraith]

Bit late to the party here but my thoughts are:

 

1: As mentioned above, avoid list tailoring. If anything else, you'll likely get an itch to play other players and then your tailored anti Ork force won't be a lot of use. Which brings me to...

2: Whirlwinds are a bit lacking when it comes to Heavy Support choices. They are half ok at one job (killing mass clumped up infantry) and a bit rubbish at everything else. Personally I would prefer choices that can perform a few tasks, which brings me to (there is a theme here!)

3: Predators! The stock standard Predator at 85 points with Autocannon and Heavy Bolters will both kill infantry well and has decent odds at annoying light armour. These things rock. I would avoid the Lascannon options though as they get crazy expensive.

 

For Tac marines you cannot go too far wrong with the basic Flamer and Missile launcher. It's free, it's good. If you have a need to take lascannons Tactical marines do this much cheaper than Devastators. If you are thinking of combat squading the backfield heavy weapon a Razorback becomes more appealing potentially than a Rhino.

 

For reference, my 1500 all comers list is:

 

HQ

Pedro Kantor

 

Elite

 

10 Sternguard

Power Fist, 2 Lascannons, combi meltas, Rhino

 

Troops

 

Tactical Squad

Power Fist, Multi Melta, Melta Gun, Rhino

Tactical Squad

Power Fist, Multi Melta, Melta Gun, Rhino

 

Fast Attack

 

Land Speeder Typhoon, Heavy Bolter

Land Speeder Typhoon, Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy Support

 

Devastator Squad (5) 4 Missile Launchers

 

Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

 

(As an easy swap sometimes I drop Pedro for a basic Librarian and then grab a Lascannon/Plasma Gun Razorback for the Devastator Squad which is very handy for Dawn of War missions.)

Personally, I don't think my buylist would creatre a tailored anti-ork force.

[DarkGuard]

Out of curiosity, what is classified as "light" armor?

 

It depends on who you're listening to and a little of your own definition. For me, light armour is AV10-11. These values because these are the values of which an autocannon (S7) and possibly assault cannon (S6) can reliably expect to penetrate. At AV12+ these weapons struggle and become ineffective.

 

Also bear in mind that something which has better armour on the front, may be a light armour vehicle at the side or rear, one example is the Vindicator, which needs dedicated anti-tank at the front like melta, but mere anti-transport (anti-light armour) on the rear or side.

[IronDragon66]

I didnt read all the posts....just the first ones, but heres my theory on army building.....

- For years i always tried to write up an army and then buy those models.....never could get the exact army written up that i wanted though. So now I just buy whatever models i think are cool, and keep doing that. Then when i have enough models to fill the propper force organization slots I play. I loose alot at first, but im always playing with models that i love and have put alot of time into, and then i just updeate my army based on how good/bad I do. I do make my armies more fluff based than "tactic" based though :)

 

- For example: I just started a Raptor army, just ordered the new Tartaros Terminators, a Contemptor Rifleman Dreadnought, and 5 Iron Armor Forgeworld marines. Are these the best to order tactically? no. But I love the way the look, so Ill just go from there :P

 

IronDragon66