Long Fangs vs Vindicators?

[Jaredbleu]

Which and why?

[maverik_girl]

Which and why?

Without stating the obvious? well... Long Fangs are more versatile, more weapon options, being able to split fire. Vindicators have to be placed carefully to have it pay back it's points in a game. I'm horrible with a scatter dice, but once that Vindi hits it's brutal.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

SUPPORT choices generally do a few things:

 

Tough, and/or

Shooty.

 

Tough comes in the form of good AV, like the front armour of Preds and Vindis.

Whilst Fangs are easily able to get cover, they are in small units and are therefore 'not tough'**.

 

This flows into army list totality. Your opponent will have X anti-infantry [AI] weapons and Y anti-tank [AT] weapons. Ideally, you build your force so that it overwhelms one weapon type, and leaves the other near useless, or at least very inefficient.

This is the idea of "Meching up" and having oodles of transports. Why? Because pretty much every unit has small arms [which are for AI] and so by taking transports, you are effectively taking those guns out of the game until either your opponent has deMeched you, by blowing up your transports, or until you decide to dismount - which is giving you the initiative as you are deciding how the battle is being fought.

 

If you go all Mech, Bolters, etc. are doing sweet nothing, or if you go Foot, then Las cannons and Melta guns are getting a lower return for their investment.

 

** So whilst Fangs are not tough, imo anyway, if you have a Foot list, then they do become tough, as your foe already has a full plate of Infantry to eat, and you are giving him seconds B)

Overwhelming his small arms, or Saturating.

 

Similarly, even though Preds & Vindis ARE tough due to AV13, if you only have one or two pieces of Armour on the table [assuming a 1500+ pts game], you are giving him too little to do, and so your Armour will get shut down and/or destroyed pretty easily.

Underwhelming his AT weaponry.

 

+++

 

Shooting.

 

Vindicators are really an AI unit, though can do a spot of AT as needs be. Therefore, as Missile Fangs are the premiere Fang unit, in both bang-for-buck and flexibility, the comparison is really between Missile Fangs and, say, an AutoLas Pred. Whilst Missile Fangs can do AI fairly well, it is their ability to pop transports that is the priority of their work, generally speaking.

 

Now Vindicators certainly are fun and dangerous, and I think are a very good learning tool for Marine players. But whilst they have the same stats on their chassis as a Predator, they give up some of that toughness for two reasons ~ firstly they expose their flimsier AV11 as they approach the enemy and secondly they come into the dreaded MELTA range of the enemy. By use, Vindis are less tough than Predators.

 

That being said, if you can keep you Vindi back, screened with even Rhinos and otherwise safe, perhaps as a counter-attacking unit, it can both kill many enemy infantry but perhaps even more so, bring these two factors to your list; intimidation and wasted resources [your enemies']. The cannon intimidates your foe into not going near it, given you table control. This wins games as much as simply killing your opponent's units. Once your foe has tasted this s10 5" template, he will make the Vindi a priority, either spending a lot of long range AT [LRAT] in the hope of knocking it out, and this could be better spent on shake/stun'ing your Rhinos, for instance, or it becomes a lure, as your opponent tries to get meltas within MELTA range, or Monstrous Creatures within assault range, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the Long Fangs are much simpler. They just shoot. Whilst they are not tough, per se, because they are usually 12" from your table edge, your opponent's small arms fire isn't going to bother them much and so he either ignores them with his long range guns, or starts using LRAT on the Fangs. It is generally better for you that he is trying to kill one infantry model with a Las cannon who easily gets cover, for example, than a Rhino.

 

+++

 

In summary, imo, this is the ranking of SW SUPPORT choices.

Fangs > Preds > Vindis.

 

Also remember Typhoons, Rifledreads and LL from Runepriests :)

 

There is a reason why Missile Fangs are so prevalent in Tournament lists, and why they get spammed. They are the best support unit in the Dex. However, that doesn't mean the others are bad. But if your buddies are not competitive, spamming Missile Fangs will make games less fun, so be relevant to your gaming circle.

 

As a Templar player, I have used both Vindis and Preds a lot, as I don't get a Devastator unit. They work and are good. They also teach you new tactics and techniques that Devastators do not.

 

So it all depends on your circle of friends, what you want from the hobby and how many dollars you have to fritter away ;)

[Orphus]

A vindi is a horrible choice on an open field, also, Long Fangs can have a longer range depending what you give them. Long Fangs in a razorback I think are slightly more survivable then a vidni in open ground because if i had long fangs they would be baking up something much more nasty.

[Khine]

A vindi is a horrible choice on an open field, also, Long Fangs can have a longer range depending what you give them. Long Fangs in a razorback I think are slightly more survivable then a vidni in open ground because if i had long fangs they would be baking up something much more nasty.

 

What about if your running a Runepriest in a rhino who is casting storm caller as it runs up along side your vindi though? Or better yet, sai Rune priest who joins a decked out iron priest unit in a rhino

[Brother Seraphion]

In smaller point games Vindi's can be worth taking cause your opponent is less likely to have lots of Anti Armor weapons which means the Vindi should survive longer however, Long Fangs are more survivable due to the extra hits and deaths they can take and still function as a effective unit

[Forté]

Depends on your fluff a little too. I'm doing a Bjorn Stormwolf force for example and the intimidation value of the Vindi fits perfectly.

 

That and I think it appeals to the old Ork player in me that want to go BOOOOOOMMMMM!!!! As I remove half a large swarm unit in one shot.

 

As the Tamplar put it though, its not worth using unless you have other mech targets for your opponent.

[Max_Dammit]

I love my vindy, its a scare factor that drives right beside my thundermount, and people think its more scary than my S10 thunderhammer :D so it gets more attention than my thundermounts, I use it purely as a mind game distraction.

[Orphus]

A vindi is a horrible choice on an open field, also, Long Fangs can have a longer range depending what you give them. Long Fangs in a razorback I think are slightly more survivable then a vidni in open ground because if i had long fangs they would be baking up something much more nasty.

 

What about if your running a Runepriest in a rhino who is casting storm caller as it runs up along side your vindi though? Or better yet, sai Rune priest who joins a decked out iron priest unit in a rhino

Well unless the RP is sparse with everything else that alot of investment for a fair bit of risk. I'm not a mech crazy person so that idea automatically doesn't appeal to me. I think long fangs would be better in that way but that's just me.

[Grovsnus]

I actually use both.

Vindis are great to put fear in your opponent.

For the fangs, how don't want to put fire on two targets?

Vindis tend to work best fealded when you have more dangarus targets for your opponent.

For fangs i have had best results when using two or more packs.

Making the opponent unable to hide from them.

Regards G

[Raensleyar]

SUPPORT choices generally do a few things:

 

Tough, and/or

Shooty.

 

Tough comes in the form of good AV, like the front armour of Preds and Vindis.

Whilst Fangs are easily able to get cover, they are in small units and are therefore 'not tough'**.

 

This flows into army list totality. Your opponent will have X anti-infantry [AI] weapons and Y anti-tank [AT] weapons. Ideally, you build your force so that it overwhelms one weapon type, and leaves the other near useless, or at least very inefficient.

This is the idea of "Meching up" and having oodles of transports. Why? Because pretty much every unit has small arms [which are for AI] and so by taking transports, you are effectively taking those guns out of the game until either your opponent has deMeched you, by blowing up your transports, or until you decide to dismount - which is giving you the initiative as you are deciding how the battle is being fought.

 

If you go all Mech, Bolters, etc. are doing sweet nothing, or if you go Foot, then Las cannons and Melta guns are getting a lower return for their investment.

 

** So whilst Fangs are not tough, imo anyway, if you have a Foot list, then they do become tough, as your foe already has a full plate of Infantry to eat, and you are giving him seconds <_<

Overwhelming his small arms, or Saturating.

 

Similarly, even though Preds & Vindis ARE tough due to AV13, if you only have one or two pieces of Armour on the table [assuming a 1500+ pts game], you are giving him too little to do, and so your Armour will get shut down and/or destroyed pretty easily.

Underwhelming his AT weaponry.

 

Thanks for this great explanation. This is something new players, like myself, fail to consider. I usually make the mistake of not giving my opponent enough threats ... i.e., 1 vindicator, 1 small unit of Long Fangs, etc. and they usually get chewed up good as he focuses on them piece by piece.

[Wolfsbane]

Long Fangs = 5 missiles

Vindicator = 1 pie plate

 

With long fangs you can tailor them to the situation, missiles is kinda the default, but if you know you're going up against a horde army heavy bolters are a great option. Up against a foot slogger army with decent saves, plasma cannons. Apoc game bring lascannons to the fight. They can also have a razorback so they get a nice LoS blocker, transportation, and an extra gun. Not to mention you can always add a wolfguard to the squad with a cyclone if you have enough WG in the army.

 

The Vindicator does one thing, it goes BOOM! It does it well, but if you're playing an agile opponent or play with lots of cover it becomes less and less useful. I've had games where he never shot an enemy and I've had games there he was MVP. He does have a fear factor built into him. If you want to play a Vindicator I would suggest having one along with a squad of Long Fangs/Rifledread/something big and shooty. That way your opponent has to choose which fire lane he wants to be in, 5 missiles or a painful pie plate. The vindicator in my opinion is a lot less forgiving with placement. If he's placed poorly he will never see action, placed properly and he's going to blow some troops up.

 

Just my opinion wolf brother.

[Karack Blackstone]

A Vindi can be shut down by receiving a 1 on the glance or pen chart.

 

Long Fangs can fire so long as there is at least one LF with a HW still standing, and not having moved in the movement phase of that turn.

 

I run both, however there's tactics for each. There's a great deal of thought out on the net as to what to take and how to run it. LF's are great in cover, and often paired with some sort of Razorback if points allow. The answer really depends on what the rest of your list is like, and what works best for the role you need to fill. LF's tend to be better for number of shots; Vindi's are great for munching troops out of the fight if one can catch them under the right circumstances.

 

Edit; clarified thought.

[Stormbrow II]

Glancing hits.

 

Long Fangs don't suffer from them while Vindis do. Due to the 24" range of the Demolisher Cannon the Vindi is more likely to (a) get in range of enemy guns/units that are going to cut through its AV 13 and (;) expose it's much weaker AV 11 side armour which both mean you take glancing hits and are unable to shoot next turn.

 

Long Fangs, when deployed further back, are out of range of much of the enemy's return fire and can continue to wail on people even after they've taken hits and lost a few models. Yes, they are susceptible to anti-infantry fire and being tarpitted in close combat but they take the focus off your other units moving into midfield. Which is where the combat units want to be.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Thanks for this great explanation. This is something new players, like myself, fail to consider. I usually make the mistake of not giving my opponent enough threats ... i.e., 1 vindicator, 1 small unit of Long Fangs, etc. and they usually get chewed up good as he focuses on them piece by piece.

 

Glad to have been of help :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

Glancing hits.

 

Long Fangs don't suffer from them while Vindis do. Due to the 24" range of the Demolisher Cannon the Vindi is more likely to (a) get in range of enemy guns/units that are going to cut through its AV 13 and (B) expose it's much weaker AV 11 side armour which both mean you take glancing hits and are unable to shoot next turn.

 

Long Fangs, when deployed further back, are out of range of much of the enemy's return fire and can continue to wail on people even after they've taken hits and lost a few models. Yes, they are susceptible to anti-infantry fire and being tarpitted in close combat but they take the focus off your other units moving into midfield. Which is where the combat units want to be.

 

I'm venturing into the Fang as this subject is close to my heart. I've often poo-pooed Vindicators as noise makers, since often they end up achieving little because they get shot to pieces.

 

However, having had this vehicle used against me recently I must say the Vindicator is difficult to hurt at range when there are multiple mechanised threats to deal with at range too. There isn't too much that likes to be be hit by a S10 AP2 template, for sure. Paladins laugh at Long Fangs and their puny Missiles (I've seen it before, a horrific Space Wolf - Long Fang Razor Spam that ate my own army the game previous then went on to lose badly to an army with lots of 2+ save, 2 wound models. 1 Vindicator makes all the difference.

 

It's a similar story when firing at any elite unit really; splat them with a Vindicator and laugh at them!

 

Ok, Long Fangs are pretty darn good due to their cheap costs, but the key issue is one of mechanised spam. You take Vindicators to distract people away from the other vehicles, many of which are squishier.

 

Any way, Long Fangs being as cheap as they are, why can't you have both!

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I used two Vindi's to kill three LF packs a couple of weeks ago. I was playing my BA... *ducks*

I prefer the LF's for the echoed response "5 Missiles are more shots than 1 pie plate is". It's that simple for me. Plus, I'm a firm believer of the two vindis are better than one philosophy. Target priority is huge in this game, and it only took me two years to learn that... Being able to split fire if needed is also huge.

 

End of Line

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Two Long Fang units and a Vindicator.

 

Two Long Fang units allow you to set up a response to any situation 3 Missile Launchers, a Lascannon the other unit being 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Plasma Cannons with a Vindi...seriously who really wants to rush that?

 

To me there must be a balance.. I like armies that are jacks of all trades... they tend to do well for me and my dice like them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I'm venturing into the Fang as this subject is close to my heart. I've often poo-pooed Vindicators as noise makers, since often they end up achieving little because they get shot to pieces.

 

However, having had this vehicle used against me recently I must say the Vindicator is difficult to hurt at range when there are multiple mechanised threats to deal with at range too. There isn't too much that likes to be be hit by a S10 AP2 template, for sure. Paladins laugh at Long Fangs and their puny Missiles (I've seen it before, a terrific Space Wolf - Long Fang Razor Spam that ate my own army the game previous then went on to lose badly to an army with lots of 2+ save, 2 wound models. 1 Vindicator makes all the difference.

 

It's a similar story when firing at any elite unit really; splat them with a Vindicator and laugh at them!

 

Ok, Long Fangs are pretty darn good due to their cheap costs, but the key issue is one of mechanised spam. You take Vindicators to distract people away from the other vehicles, many of which are squishier.

 

Any way, Long Fangs being as cheap as they are, why can't you have both!

 

If you can force your opponent to shoot at the front AV, and not venture into MELTA and Monster assault range, the amount of shooting the Vindi can soak up can really impair your opponent's ability to deal with the rest of the force.

 

Having tempo in your tactics can really get the most out of your units. For example, rushing forwards with a unit [be it Thunderwolves, Vindi, etc.] just because it can mess up something is really playing into your opponents plans.

 

I think the post that really crystallised this for me was Darkseer's posts on a tournament whilst using a LR Phobos [whose Las cannons get poo-pooed when compared to Hurricane bolters or Flamestorm cannons] and Wolfguard Termies, who also are not seen as a hardcore unit. The way he used them was just tip-top, and it was all to do with tempo.

[eyeslikethunder]

I found the vindicator very good when i used it a tournament (due to comp reasons originally I must admit) But I found it served me well. In the games(BT and orcs) i needed it less it worked as good distraction taking away firepower from the rest of my army and in the games i needed it(twc SW, GK) I found if shielded by rhinos and razorbacks it got the job done. I also had 2 squads of LF's 4 gh packs in transports 2 RP

[Tamwulf]

Long Fangs. All the way. I can't imagine taking a Vindicator in any army by itself. Might as well paint a huge bulls eye on it. It'll attract all the long range shooting/anti-tank your opponent can muster.

 

5 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers costs 19% more in points then a Vindicator. 5 Missile Launchers have a better chance of destroying enemy anything (infantry or armor) at 48". 5 Small blast templates will tag more models then one large blast template, 5 S8 shots have a better chance of hitting and destroying armor then a single shot, 24" range, scattering large template.

 

One lucky shot will neuter/destroy the Vindicator. Much, much harder to do the same to Long Fangs. Long Fangs at least have a chance to do something in close combat. A Vindicator will blow up or at the very least get shaken/stunned.

 

The best way to field Vindicators is in a mechanized list with 2-3 Vindis, or 1 Vindi flanked with Rhinos/Preds. Or by fielding the Shield Breaker squad of 3 Vindicators.

[JamesI]

I love my Vindicators. I try to never use just 1, almost always 2 if I take them.

 

But, if I was a Space Wolf Player, it would be Long Fangs easily. Just an amazing unit. The ability to split fire, the ability to have more than 4 heavy weapons. The only area they lack is in the ability to take meatshields.

[Miktain]

Any list I make from 1500 - 2000 points has two full Long Fang squads with 5 missile launchers, and one naked Vindicator. Under 1500 point lists don't get the Vindicator usually, but I never lose my two Long Fang squads.

 

EDIT: I know people say it's a major target to take one Vindicator, but hey.... Those units have to shoot at something, it may as well be something with 13 front armor. If it saves my other units, Im cool with that.

[Ash Tekka]

I've never taken a vindicator beforeI always run 2 packs of long fangs. 3 packs seems to be overkill and I can never find a good spot for deployment.

 

I've always skipped the vindi because I thought it couldn't move and fire in the same turn. Am I right on that?

[Miktain]

I've never taken a vindicator beforeI always run 2 packs of long fangs. 3 packs seems to be overkill and I can never find a good spot for deployment.

 

I've always skipped the vindi because I thought it couldn't move and fire in the same turn. Am I right on that?

Can move 6" and fire or 12" and not fire.