Psyker Plausibility Question

[Brother Frater]

Without giving away too much information, I have a question relating to my own Index Astartes chapter.

 

I have a fairly strong narrative in mind. My chapter starts as Codex, but takes part in a devastating crusade action against a rogue alpha level psyker. Its a joint crusade, but the final action is offered to my chapter (supervised by the =I= of course) as both a test and an honor. They are victorious, but it devastates them, and the only survivors are the reserve 4th, 9th, 10th companies, and less than a dozen chapter HQ officers and librarians who took part in the final action. The Chapter Master does not survive, and more Librarians do than other officers.

 

The chapter is never the same, and undergoes a complete restructuring -- librarians take the role of senior HQ. They develop a very shadowy and close tie with the Ordo Hereticus.

 

SO, here's my question.

 

What I want is to have my chapter become witch hunters (no problem so far), but I want them to:

 

1) be led by Librarians, who take HQ counts-as command roles (is that okay?)

2) even more contentious, be led at a squad level by low-level psyker-sergeants (with very minimal powers -- just enough to detect psykers) as often as regular sergeant-marines. They are highly specialized, and this is just one of many manifestations.

3) most problematic yet, to recruit from an ordo hereticus gifted homeworld rich with psyker candidates. A feral world with a strong shaman cult theme, who battle for the right to be tested by the star men of the Ordo Hereticus (but now my chapter takes that role).

 

So ... what do you think of that? Can I do that? And if not, what do I need to alter to make it work?

 

Thanks,

 

Brother Frater.

[UltraWorldWolves]

Well at the point of having psykers as leaders in squads is a bit over the top. It could work sense they can only detect psykers. Again It could work and it would be quite unique. But you have to remember that psykers are few and far between so try and come up with some sort of slightly warp touched world. Oh and before I forget welcome to the team ;) .

[Octavulg]

1) be led by Librarians, who take HQ counts-as command roles (is that okay?)

 

The Blood Ravens do it (or at least did it at one point in the past).

 

It'd be a dangerous practice - psykers are open to corruption. Furthermore, the two roles are separate in other chapters, which does suggest that they both may require some dedication to get right.

 

2) even more contentious, be led at a squad level by low-level psyker-sergeants (with very minimal powers -- just enough to detect psykers) as often as regular sergeant-marines. They are highly specialized, and this is just one of many manifestations.

 

That's a lot of psykers. Like, a lot. Also, minimally-powered psykers get eaten by the Emperor because they're dangerous - they're vulnerable to the Warp and too weak to protect themselves from it.

 

3) most problematic yet, to recruit from an ordo hereticus gifted homeworld rich with psyker candidates. A feral world with a strong shaman cult theme, who battle for the right to be tested by the star men of the Ordo Hereticus (but now my chapter takes that role).

 

A world rich in psykers doesn't sound like the sort of thing whatever agency possessed it would just give away.

[Conn Eremon]

1) be led by Librarians, who take HQ counts-as command roles (is that okay?)

2) even more contentious, be led at a squad level by low-level psyker-sergeants (with very minimal powers -- just enough to detect psykers) as often as regular sergeant-marines. They are highly specialized, and this is just one of many manifestations.

3) most problematic yet, to recruit from an ordo hereticus gifted homeworld rich with psyker candidates. A feral world with a strong shaman cult theme, who battle for the right to be tested by the star men of the Ordo Hereticus (but now my chapter takes that role).

 

1) Sure. All the Marine codexes I can think of have at least one psyker HQ. Just refluff them to be not simply Head Librarians, but Chapter Masters, Captains, etc.

 

2) Fluffwise . . . eh? Octavulg's points mirror my own in this point. Tabletop-wise, I see no problem with just saying they are psykers, but rules-wise just plain Sergeants. Refluff their abilities as psyker powers rather than just charismatic leadership, and you're done, no need to change the rules or anything.

 

3) Being gifted a world from the Ordo Hereticus? That just doesn't sound very plausible to me. From what I understand, some worlds can be ceded to Marines during their creation process. Maybe some pen-pushers listed your Chapter as taking this world because it happens to be suitable in temperament and location, without much knowledge on the world beyond "unclaimed Feral world in X subsector." Afterwards, when the newborn Chapter arrives to stake their claim, the Inquisition makes it known that they have had their eye on the world for some time due to its abnormally high generation of psykers. Rather than disputing the Chapter's claim, they strike up a deal towards mutual benefit.

 

If it were me, I'd have the Crusade occur at the beginning of their formation, when most of the command structure is mostly borrowed Marines from whichever parent Chapter. Being dropped down to three companies, while just a minor Chapter (if it's not a Founding Chapter, or one of GW's flag Chapter, it's minor in comparison), is huge. Bells striking the final toll huge. Having it that early, when the Chapter is small to begin with and already in full swing of heavy recruiting, it's a tad more understandable, and you'd have a fledgling Chapter bereft of guidance just waiting to be shaped by this new world and the recruits its given.

 

Come to think of it, that's exactly what I did for fully half the Chapters I intend to write some IA's for, the Emerald Tigers and Imperial Dragons. Maybe I like that idea too much. Ehh, oh well. I find it hard to advise or criticize without taking the idea and changing it to more suit my tastes. Ignore it if it doesn't suit your own tastes.

[Dosjetka]

I can only second what has already been said. I personally don't really like the whole "more-psykers-than-other-Chapters" idea, probably due to the fact that I've seen it too many times and every time it as failed miserable.

 

Ludovic

[NightrawenII]

Disclaimer: I'm aware of the order of replies, it's on purpose...

 

1) be led by Librarians, who take HQ counts-as command roles (is that okay?)

 

The Blood Ravens do it (or at least did it at one point in the past).

 

It'd be a dangerous practice - psykers are open to corruption. Furthermore, the two roles are separate in other chapters, which does suggest that they both may require some dedication to get right.

It's rare, but not unknown, for Librarians to lead companies of Blood Ravens. Though, they do that because of legacy of Great Father (exact opposite of this chapter).

 

Actually, there is short-story in one of Warhammer Monthly magazines, where it's sort of explained. Basically, the Librarian, or any psyker for that matter, has to be very very careful, because he might be unconsciously influenced and thus manipulated into certain actions. In other words, he has to be sure, his ideas are really his own and not someone or rather something else's.

 

Without giving away too much information, I have a question relating to my own Index Astartes chapter.

 

I have a fairly strong narrative in mind. My chapter starts as Codex, but takes part in a devastating crusade action against a rogue alpha level psyker. Its a joint crusade, but the final action is offered to my chapter (supervised by the =I= of course) as both a test and an honor. They are victorious, but it devastates them, and the only survivors are the reserve 4th, 9th, 10th companies, and less than a dozen chapter HQ officers and librarians who took part in the final action. The Chapter Master does not survive, and more Librarians do than other officers.

 

The chapter is never the same, and undergoes a complete restructuring -- librarians take the role of senior HQ. They develop a very shadowy and close tie with the Ordo Hereticus.

Unfortunately, this strong narrative is over(ab)used cliché here in Liber. Just look around. :D

 

Second, the (rogue) alpha psykers are as common as chaste daemonette. Yeah, you guess it right, not very. ;) The Orks, Rebels, Lost and Damned are far common and immediate threat.

 

2) even more contentious, be led at a squad level by low-level psyker-sergeants (with very minimal powers -- just enough to detect psykers) as often as regular sergeant-marines. They are highly specialized, and this is just one of many manifestations.

Detection of psyker is almost impossible (if and when he actively hides his gift), unless you look directly into his mind... Which is like sticking your *cough* fingers into meat-grinder - not very smart.

 

3) most problematic yet, to recruit from an ordo hereticus gifted homeworld rich with psyker candidates. A feral world with a strong shaman cult theme, who battle for the right to be tested by the star men of the Ordo Hereticus (but now my chapter takes that role).

Ordo Hereticus doesn't own worlds. They are FBI, not government office. And such planet would be almost definitely given to Grey Knights, via Black Ships.

 

 

~NightrawenII.

[Lysimachus]

It's unlikely for any Imperial organization to just give away a planet that regularly produces stable psykers, even to the Astartes.

 

The only way I could see this (i.e. a Chapter that have a high number of psykers due to the nature of their home world's inhabitants) working is if 1) they got to it first before anyone else knew about it and 2) they're probably not telling anyone about it now either.

 

I figure they'd know that most people don't trust psykers and would have to keep things quiet. Maybe the squad level Libbys would only have fairly minor abilities; a little bit of prescience rather than throwing bolts of lightning that take out Baneblades? :angry:

 

As far as the Libby-Captains go, perhaps you could make it that each Company is officially led by a (non psychic) Captain as normal but also has a Libby permanently assigned too. As far as anyone on the outside knows, their command structure is standard Codex, but behind the scenes the Captain is actually subordinate to the Libby? Same for Chapter Master and Chief Librarian.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Unfortunately, this strong narrative is over(ab)used cliché here in Liber. Just look around. :angry:

 

Second, the (rogue) alpha psykers are as common as chaste daemonette. Yeah, you guess it right, not very. :devil: The Orks, Rebels, Lost and Damned are far common and immediate threat.

 

~NightrawenII.

 

So on the one hand you chastise the original poster for using something that is very common (to the point of being trite, if you'll forgive a paraphrase) and on the other you chastise them for something actually original that could very well explain the devastation of the chapter? I do agree that the 'brotherhood of psykers' thing is way over-used, by the way, but to point this out and then suggest that the enemy should be changed to one that is, IMO, also way over-used seems a little problematic.

 

Surely the whole point of this is to personalise a chapter; to give them a story that separates them from the herd so to speak? What better way than to have them fight an uncommon enemy rather than have being A.N Other chapter slogging it out against the Orks or a straight fight against Chaos. If the OP does decide to bring in some Chaotic elements into the enemy, a rogue psyker is a great way to do it, IMO.

 

Maybe I'm biased though because I have plans to (eventually, when time and money permit) build an army representing a PDF twisted into the service of a rogue Planetary Governor who, after dabbling in arcane lore that she doesn't really understand, 'spontaneously' (so far as she knows, in reality gifted by Slaanesh) develops psychic ability.

[Brother Frater]

Woah!

 

Rich feedback! I love it! So, I have read all your feedback, and I admit that I see many flaws in my original thinking. Some you have opened my eyes to, and some I realized last night as I sat and wrote it out with pen and paper by candlelight before bed (somehow, pen and paper writing seems to help clarify my thought). I accept the criticisms contained above wholeheartedly :)

 

Okay so how do .. I proceed here .. Okay first:

 

Well at the point of having psykers as leaders in squads is a bit over the top. It could work sense they can only detect psykers. Again It could work and it would be quite unique. But you have to remember that psykers are few and far between so try and come up with some sort of slightly warp touched world. Oh and before I forget welcome to the team.

Thank you for the welcome! I've been lurking for a loooong time ;) Okay, now ...

 

The Blood Ravens do it (or at least did it at one point in the past).

 

It'd be a dangerous practice - psykers are open to corruption. Furthermore, the two roles are separate in other chapters, which does suggest that they both may require some dedication to get right.

Good to know that it at least is done, or was. The idea behind the Librarian leadership is twofold: #1, since the chapter was so depleted, they are required to pull 'double duty' as it were. It was meant to be temporary and to revert back to codex, but with the changed structure of the chapter, and the fact that the Librarium then comprised at least 50% of the chapter leadership, it was not seen as so necessary to revert the structure back to codex; #2 while psykers are open to corruption, are they not also better candidates for defeating enemy psykers than are non-psykers? A regular marine can just as easily shoot/eviscerate an enemy psyker, but the librarian-marine can also guard against his warp-powered onslaughts, no?

 

Okay, now, on to the tough love stuff. As regards the marine-sergeants, yes, I agree, this is too much. There couldn't possibly be that many psykers in the chapter, not without attracting some unwanted attention from the OH, OM, or other chapters. I did have another idea, though, that might just accomodate this -- its possible that only the first company was organized like this after the crusade, and thus only the first company retained this organization, and that I represent only the first company on the table-top (I'll toy with this idea throughout the day).

 

Anyway, for sure, I need to change this facet. Yes, absolutely.

 

3) Being gifted a world from the Ordo Hereticus? That just doesn't sound very plausible to me. From what I understand, some worlds can be ceded to Marines during their creation process. Maybe some pen-pushers listed your Chapter as taking this world because it happens to be suitable in temperament and location, without much knowledge on the world beyond "unclaimed Feral world in X subsector." Afterwards, when the newborn Chapter arrives to stake their claim, the Inquisition makes it known that they have had their eye on the world for some time due to its abnormally high generation of psykers. Rather than disputing the Chapter's claim, they strike up a deal towards mutual benefit.

As for the homeworld, that, too, was just ridiculous. They would never give such a valuable asset away, especially not to a new chapter, and especially not to an understrength, crippled chapter. That's just crazy. I think the homeworld idea was one too many different ideas, and rather than making the chapter unique, made them smack of fantasy. I may just drop the homeworld idea entirely -- I like the idea of them taking a homeworld in order to rebuild, but I no longer like the idea of the psyker rich homeworld.

 

Unfortunately, this strong narrative is over(ab)used cliché here in Liber. Just look around.

 

Second, the (rogue) alpha psykers are as common as chaste daemonette. Yeah, you guess it right, not very. The Orks, Rebels, Lost and Damned are far common and immediate threat.

Ouch. I wont lie, that stings. I appreciate it, though. A strong, smart nudge into the light of sense. I'm not keen to rethink the idea, though. Perhaps I could down-grade the power of the prime enemy. But I do like the idea of this villain being warp-sensitive -- otherwise, what could cause my chapter to specialize in witch hunting?

 

Detection of psyker is almost impossible (if and when he actively hides his gift), unless you look directly into his mind... Which is like sticking your *cough* fingers into meat-grinder - not very smart.

I see. I did not know this. Hm, tell me more?

 

As far as the Libby-Captains go, perhaps you could make it that each Company is officially led by a (non psychic) Captain as normal but also has a Libby permanently assigned too. As far as anyone on the outside knows, their command structure is standard Codex, but behind the scenes the Captain is actually subordinate to the Libby? Same for Chapter Master and Chief Librarian.

I both like and dislike this idea. It allows me to do what I want, but it makes my chapter into some kind of wussy secret-hiding sitting-in-dark-corners non-proud bunch of shadow men.

 

The thing is that I really liked the idea of having them change their perception of librarians, especially after it was the librarium that earned them their victory.

 

Okay, its time for work. I'm going to digest all of this wonderful feedback, all of it appreciated very much!

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

some kind of wussy secret-hiding sitting-in-dark-corners non-proud bunch of shadow men.

 

The First Legion says hi. Having secrets doesn't have to mean weakness.

[Lysimachus]

I both like and dislike this idea. It allows me to do what I want, but it makes my chapter into some kind of wussy secret-hiding sitting-in-dark-corners non-proud bunch of shadow men.

 

Not trying to sound like an ass, but I don't walk down the middle of the road challenging buses to play chicken, am I a wuss? ;)

 

Remember, the Imperium is massively powerful, so much so that if it decides your Chapter, any Chapter, is dangerous it will crush it. Maybe your Chapter just views their abilities with pragmatism instead of (potentially foolish) pride, knowing what the opinion of the greater Imperium will be?

 

Anyway, it's just a suggestion to try and help make the idea work, if you don't like it no worries! <_<

[Dosjetka]

The First Legion says hi. Having secrets doesn't have to mean weakness.

Depends on your point of view and on what kind of weakness you're talking about, but I agree that it can be done and has been done.

 

Ludovic

[Demus Ragnok]

My only knowledge of the ][ is from the Eisenhorn trilogy, so my back ground may be limited. However, I get the feeling that the Ordo Hereticus aka "Witch Hunters" would be chocked full of puritanical types that really don't care much for psykers in gerneral especially amoung the astartes. But the ][ seems a far flung lose knit bunch so anything is possible.

[NightrawenII]

Surely the whole point of this is to personalise a chapter; to give them a personality that separates them from the herd so to speak? What a cheap excuse to have them fight an special enemy just to show how special they are. ;)

There, fixed for you.

Túrin Turambar was not interesting character, because he fought Glaurung and killed him.

 

Unfortunately, this strong narrative is over(ab)used cliché here in Liber. Just look around.

 

Second, the (rogue) alpha psykers are as common as chaste daemonette. Yeah, you guess it right, not very. The Orks, Rebels, Lost and Damned are far common and immediate threat.

Ouch. I wont lie, that stings. I appreciate it, though. A strong, smart nudge into the light of sense. I'm not keen to rethink the idea, though. Perhaps I could down-grade the power of the prime enemy. But I do like the idea of this villain being warp-sensitive -- otherwise, what could cause my chapter to specialize in witch hunting?

Culexus Temple assassins want a few words with you... :P

 

Hatred towards psykers could be result of philosophy or belief. Alternatively, they could actively seek the fights with followers of Tzeentch, Sorcerers and Xenos psykers, but there lies danger in fighting fire with fire.

 

Detection of psyker is almost impossible (if and when he actively hides his gift), unless you look directly into his mind... Which is like sticking your *cough* fingers into meat-grinder - not very smart.

I see. I did not know this. Hm, tell me more?

There isn't much to say.

The psyker doesn't have "psyker" written on his forehead and mind-probe requires skill/experience/training - it's difficult and dangerous. In fact, it's possible to lie to psyker without danger of being discovered. Ciaphas Cain is one such example and there are others.

 

 

~NightrawenII.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

There, fixed for you.

Túrin Turambar was not interesting character, because he fought Glaurung and killed him.

 

Right. I would certainly like to hear more about A.N.Other chapter fighting A.N Other Waagh rather than a chapter fighting an uncommon enemy to it's great detriment. The first one sounds way more interesting.

[Dosjetka]

*snif* Phew! This place stinks with sarcasm :D

 

To the OP: I would suggest you forget the alpha-level psyker and instead replace him with a whole group of low-level psykers channel their power through a daemon construct or a poweful psyker which makes the threat more believable (to me anyway) but just as dangerous? Maybe, if you choose to channel all that raw Warp power through a psyker, then you could say that he got destroyed and in the resulting catastrophe, a small-ish Warp gate opened? Just some food for thought.

 

Ludovic

[NightrawenII]

There, fixed for you.

Túrin Turambar was not interesting character, because he fought Glaurung and killed him.

 

Right. I would certainly like to hear more about A.N.Other chapter fighting A.N Other Waagh rather than a chapter fighting an uncommon enemy to it's great detriment. The first one sounds way more interesting.

You are in wrong room, my friend. *points* Short Stories forum is this way. Liber Astartes is place for development of Chapters/Warbands. Chapter =/= single battle or short story.

 

 

~NightrawenII.