Feel No Pain versus Vulnerable to Templates

[ShinyRhino]

If a unit that is Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates also possesses Feel No Pain, how do you determine the saves available?

 

For example, let's say a Tyraind Ripper Swarm has FNP (they can get that from one of the big bugs, right?). A unit of Marine Devastators fires frag missiles at the Rippers, landing a total of ten hits. Those ten hits translate to eight wounds.

Rippers get no armor save against AP6 frag missiles, so all eight wounds are doubled to 16...or are they?

 

The wording for FNP states that the Rippers can make a roll for each unsaved wound. The rules for Vulnerable state that each unsaved wound is doubled. Do the Rippers make 8 FNP rolls, and each resulting success reduces the wound total by one, and the remiander are doubled? Or do the Rippers make 16 FNP rolls?

 

My head says they make 16 FNP rolls because both rules use "unsaved" and FNP is never defined as a "save".

[JamesI]

I would say 8 FNPs, with the number of wounds left after FNP doubled.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

My head says they make 16 FNP rolls because both rules use "unsaved" and FNP is never defined as a "save".

My gut agrees with your head. FNP only works on unsaved wounds. Of course, that's logic and not rules so my answer might change once I check it out.

[falldown]

I am pretty sure the 8 wounds become 16 before fnp. This is because all 8 are unsaved prior to fnp kicking in.

[Seahawk]

This is my simplified order for how this works:

 

1. Suffer wounds, allocate, etc.

2. Roll saves.

3. Any unsaved wound has any modifiers added.

4. Feel No Pain may be rolled for.

 

You get the number of unsaved wounds after you roll for saves and before you roll for Feel No Pain. Feel No Pain is not a save in any sense and is used when you have produced unsaved wounds. You can't get unsaved wounds until after you roll to save.

 

I'd say the 8 turns to 16 before Feel No Pain is rolled for.

[Morollan]

Isn't it statistically the same in any event? On average you either get 16 saves at 4+ (8 wounds) or 8 saves at 4+ that are then doubled (8 wounds).

[JamesI]

Isn't it statistically the same in any event? On average you either get 16 saves at 4+ (8 wounds) or 8 saves at 4+ that are then doubled (8 wounds).

well, the average is the same, but dice are fickle things.

[Morollan]

Isn't it statistically the same in any event? On average you either get 16 saves at 4+ (8 wounds) or 8 saves at 4+ that are then doubled (8 wounds).

well, the average is the same, but dice are fickle things.

 

True but I'm just not sure if it's really worthwhile arguing on whether you double something before you half it or half something before you double it. :D

[Spacefrisian]

The wounds only double when an actuall wound has been done, not before any saves of any kind are made... eg.

 

Hit > wounding

Saves > Feel no pain

Count number of wounds > wounds doubled due to vulnerable to blast

[Morollan]

FNP is not a saving throw though and occurs on suffering an unsaved wound.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Feel No Pain, on p75 of the Rulebook, says "...if a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..." My emphasis. Vulnerable To Blasts/Templates, on p76, says ..."each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds." Again, my emphasis. Feel No Pain is never referred to as a save, not even in the fluff which states that the "injury is ignored", not saved. The swarm has suffered an unsaved wound so VTB/T doubles the unsaved wounds, then Feel No Pain allows you to roll for which ones can be ignored.

 

Ergo, a Ripper Swarm taking eight unsaved wounds from Frag missiles, per the OP example, has those wounds doubled to sixteen and then rolls for Feel No Pain.

[Seahawk]

Exactly, as has already been stated above, FNP is not a save and is only allowed for "unsaved" wounds. You can only have "unsaved" wounds after you have already rolled for all saves.

 

@Morollan - Is there a point? Sure. If the dice are off by one, it can easily result in a difference. 8 wounds + 5 fail = 10 wounds. 16 dice + 9 fail = 9 wounds. Or, say you fail 7/8, that means 14 wounds, but if you fail 7/16, that's only 7. Big difference. If someone saw their first roll as the 7/8 fails, they might then go on to say "Oh wait, I need to take another 8 saves because of double wounds, yes..." in an effort to beat the odds. "Statistically", they'd get 4 saves, meaning only 11 wounds suffered instead of 14 again.

 

In the end, just like Fortune/Null Zone etc, it's best just to roll all the dice so there's no finangling of rules to try to get an advantage. That, or just being consistent in always doing it one way, all the time. I personally like rolling more dice like a fool, so I'll happily take the 16 as prescribed <_<

[Morollan]

@Morollan - Is there a point? Sure. If the dice are off by one, it can easily result in a difference.

 

It can go either way though so I would just say decide beforehand what way you are doing it and stick to it.

[JamesI]

In the end, just like Fortune/Null Zone etc, it's best just to roll all the dice so there's no finangling of rules to try to get an advantage.

Like Fortune/Null Zone, I think the difference in answers is minor enough to just do whatever my opponent favored. Though I would try to clarify the issue before the game if I thought it could be an issue.

 

We have 2 things that happen on an unsaved wound (doubling and FNP). I see nothing that indicates 1 takes priority of the other, so really, whichever solution is fine by me.

[Jacinda]

Being statistically equivalent, I would not worry about it to much. I would let my opponent pick what he prefers.

If you want to be an arse ....

Both happen on unsaved wounds and since there is no given order we apply then simultaneously. 8 unsaved wounds mean 8 FNP rolls and 16 total wounds. Those additional 8 wounds from vulnerability to templates do not allow a save (as it would be a second save on the one unsaved wound that caused it) thus not able to be ignored by FNP.

[Seahawk]

Interesting thought, and to make it hardlined that makes good sense.

[Legatus]

wounding -> saves -> FnP -> vulnerability to blast templates

 

 

The term "unsaved wounds" does not refer to the wounds a model actually has taken from its profile, it refers to the value just after the regular saves have been made.

 

I.e. a model vulnerable to blast templates would make normal saves, and those wounds that were not saved are then counted as "unsaved wounds". That amount is then doubled, and the doubled amount is removed from the model's wound stat. No wounds are removed before the doubling had taken place, so the "unsaved wounds" were not wounds that the mode had actually removed from its profile.

 

A model with FnP does not have to remove wounds from its stat line before making the FnP save. It makes FnP saves for the "unsaved wounds", and those not prevented by FnP are then actually removed from the model's stat line.

 

Basically:

 

Vulnerable to blast templates --> each "unsaved wound" will remove two wounds instead of one

 

Feel no Pain --> "unsaved wounds" can still be prevented from removing a wound

 

 

Since the 'Feel no Pain' affects "unsaved wounds", and not "wounds that are removed from the models stat line", the FnP save would apply before vulnerability to blast templates.

 

1. Saves are made.

 

2. FnP can prevent "unsaved wounds" from removing wounds

 

3. Each "unsaved wound" that is not prevented from removing a wound will remove two instead of one if the model is vulnerable to blast templates

[Frosty the Pyro]

I would judge feal no pain happens after vulnerable to blasts. Though to be honest both rules react to unsaved wounds there is no true priority, generaly in other games when faced with a situation like that we let the person who owns the units with the rules decide, if the rules are an interaction between two players the active player decides (aka the one whose turn it currently is).

 

As a note the difference between the two is if you roll FnP before the doubling, then you are rolling LESS dice, and therefor more likely to have extreme values such as preventing all wounds, or having all wounds doubled. If you roll after you are rolling MORE dice, and the more dice you roll the more likely you are to get median values.

 

Not that it realy matters much, I cant think of a single reason a nid player would ever use rippers, they are just realy that bad. And i cant think of a way that scarabs can get FnP (though i havnt fine tooth combed the necron dex yet). Nurglings maybe? I would need to check the deamon dex they are not nearby.

 

To legatus, i am fairly sure that vulnerable to blast/template does its doubling BEFORE remove casualty phase (when wounds are removed from the profile), as if it wasnt, then the instant death/vulnerable to blast doubling would NOT ocure (and we know that it does), and wounds would automaticly stack in groups of two, making the rule useless agaisnt single wound models (not that i can think of any single wound swarms), and cause overflow waste against any sort of model with an odd number of wounds. Esentialy that would be like 4th ed tyranids implant attack.