Herald of Titan?

[shortysl]

Hello to one and all!

 

I'm literally brand new to the Grey Knights, having not even managed to play a game yet but i've noticed a number of discussions in the forums about Brotherhood Champions. Now, i love the idea of Purifiers but i pretty much hate the idea of Brotherhood Champions, and i've noticed that the Titan's Herald rule allows a Brotherhood Champion and any unit he has joined to re-roll failed to-hit rolls on the turn they charge into combat. This seems to clash however, with the Brotherhood Champions unit type; Infantry. I know they are bracketed as being characters, but they do not have the Independent Character special rule, so my question is; how do they work? Am i supposed to take a 1 wound H.Q all on his own and watch as he gets shot to pieces because he counts as a unit in his own right? And if he can't join another unit, why does Titan's Herald suggest that he can? Help please.

[RedemptionNL]

Note that Brotherhood Champions are Independent Characters, and thus can join other units just fine. Only Crowe, a cross between a Purifier and a Brotherhood Champion, has to fight in his lonesome due to his Daemon sword.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I think you are confusing Crowe with Brotherhood Champions. The normal Champion is an Indepedent Character but Crowe is also a Brotherhood Champion but doesn't have Indepedent Character but he really is a one man army if you know that his Cleansing Flame is Rending on a 4+. He becomes dirty to hordes.

[shortysl]

Ok, i missed the fact that Brotherhood Champions are IC's but Crowe also has the Herald of Titan rule. Oversight perhaps on GW's part?

[RedemptionNL]

It still gives Crowe re-roll failed to hit in the turn he charged.

[MayorDaley]

@Elric the Silvercoat, I'm just wondering how Crowe's cleansing flame is rending? Is it because he rends on a 4+? Cleansing flame is a psy attack, not a close combat attack. By that logic he would get to re-roll to hit on his cleansing flame as well right?

 

I just have never heard of Crowe being this standout is all.

[Valerian]

I think you are confusing Crowe with Brotherhood Champions. The normal Champion is an Indepedent Character but Crowe is also a Brotherhood Champion but doesn't have Indepedent Character but he really is a one man army if you know that his Cleansing Flame is Rending on a 4+. He becomes dirty to hordes.

 

Neither his Psychic Powers nor his shooting attacks are Rending, just his close combat attacks.

 

Valerian

[Darkmagi]

Actually per the GK FAQ:

 

Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close

combat attack? (p31)

A: A close combat attack.

 

And per Crowes "Master Swordsman" rule all his Close Combat attacks rend on a 4+, therefore his cleansing flame rends on a 4+

[RedemptionNL]

Hmm, by RAW that actually seems right. Although it does seem cheesy that Crowe's Cleansing Flame ignores armour saves just because he's good with a sword. Of course, on the other hand, as Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack, units like Dark Eldar Wyches would get their invulnerable save against it.

[Chengar Qordath]

Well, maybe the demon sword he uses gives his Cleansing Flame a little extra firepower, and he is very strong willed, which probably makes him an above-average psyker.

[Gentlemanloser]

units like Dark Eldar Wyches would get their invulnerable save against it.

 

Bad wording/rule writing from GW strikes again! ^_^

 

CF states that "Armour Saves can be taken as normal." But doesn't mention Cover/Invulnerable saves.

 

By RAW, you wouldn't be able to take an Invulnerable save versus a CF wound.

 

Now if they had said "saves can be taken as normal"...

[Morollan]

units like Dark Eldar Wyches would get their invulnerable save against it.

 

Bad wording/rule writing from GW strikes again! ^_^

 

CF states that "Armour Saves can be taken as normal." But doesn't mention Cover/Invulnerable saves.

 

By RAW, you wouldn't be able to take an Invulnerable save versus a CF wound.

 

Now if they had said "saves can be taken as normal"...

 

Nothing in the CF rules prevents you from taking an invulnerable save though as permission to do so is granted by the general rules of 40K.

 

BRB Pg20

"Invulnerable saves...may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound"

[Chengar Qordath]

And cover saves are already handled by the fact that it's a close combat attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah Cover saves are covered, but if you can only take Armour saves as normal, that must mean you can't take Invulernable saves as normal, right? ^_^

 

And Codex > BRB.

 

Edit: This is *nothing* I'd ever argue, merely another (tounge-in-cheek) example of the shoddy rules writing our codex suffers from that could have been *quite* easily tightened up before release...

[RedemptionNL]

Re: Cleansing Flame and Master Swordsman.

 

Technically, Cleansing Flame isn't a 'to Wound roll', it just causes a wound on a 4+. Master Swordsman states:

His (Crowe's) close combat attacks have the Rending special rule, and will rend on a to Wound roll of 4 or more.

 

As there is no 'to Wound roll', which is a Strength versus Toughness roll, you can't rend on it.

[Gentlemanloser]

If "suffer one wound on a roll of 4+" isn't a 'to wound' roll, then how does CF cause damage?

 

Edit:

 

Under Rending;

 

"any roll to wound of a 6 automatically causes a wound, regardless of the target's Toughness"

 

And Sniper;

 

"Sniper hits wound on a roll of 4+"

 

(Sniper Weapons are also all rending weapons, and never use a 'To Wound' roll, as they never check versus a targets Toughness)

 

And Poisoned Weapons;

 

"they always wound on a fixed number"

 

Poisoned Wepaons can also be Rending Weapons.

 

You don't have to roll Strength versus Toughness to qualify for rending, or to be classed as a 'to wound' roll.

[Morollan]

Re: Cleansing Flame and Master Swordsman.

 

Technically, Cleansing Flame isn't a 'to Wound roll', it just causes a wound on a 4+. Master Swordsman states:

His (Crowe's) close combat attacks have the Rending special rule, and will rend on a to Wound roll of 4 or more.

 

As there is no 'to Wound roll', which is a Strength versus Toughness roll, you can't rend on it.

 

It's a fixed value to wound but it is still a roll to wound. Similar to poison weapons.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Re: Cleansing Flame and Master Swordsman.

 

Technically, Cleansing Flame isn't a 'to Wound roll', it just causes a wound on a 4+. Master Swordsman states:

His (Crowe's) close combat attacks have the Rending special rule, and will rend on a to Wound roll of 4 or more.

 

As there is no 'to Wound roll', which is a Strength versus Toughness roll, you can't rend on it.

 

It's a fixed value to wound but it is still a roll to wound. Similar to poison weapons.

I am with people that think that Crowe's Cleansing Flame rends is OP. Because it is and because its a close combat attack the Wyches will get the Inv Save because they get a Inv Save in close combat or against close combat attacks.

[DK1]

Taken the words literal I think it would rend and ing inv svs. In the old codex psybolt ammo in storm bolters ignored inv svs. so did psycannon and incinerators.

[Morollan]

Taken the words literal I think it would rend and ing inv svs.

 

/facepalm

 

For the last time. It does not ignore invulnerable saves.

 

BRB Pg20

"Invulnerable saves...may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound"

 

Unless you can show me the section of the Cleansing Flames rules that specifically states that invulnerable saves may not be taken then they can. End of.

[DK1]

Taken the words literal I think it would rend and ing inv svs.

 

/facepalm

 

For the last time. It does not ignore invulnerable saves.

 

BRB Pg20

"Invulnerable saves...may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound"

 

Unless you can show me the section of the Cleansing Flames rules that specifically states that invulnerable saves may not be taken then they can. End of.

 

looking at it that way, does that mean in the old daemonhunter codex the psy weapons ing inv svs, does that mean they could be taken anyway?

[Morollan]

Taken the words literal I think it would rend and ing inv svs.

 

/facepalm

 

For the last time. It does not ignore invulnerable saves.

 

BRB Pg20

"Invulnerable saves...may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound"

 

Unless you can show me the section of the Cleansing Flames rules that specifically states that invulnerable saves may not be taken then they can. End of.

 

looking at it that way, does that mean in the old daemonhunter codex the psy weapons ing inv svs, does that mean they could be taken anyway?

 

The 4th edition daemonhunters codex specifically said that psycannon ignored invulnerable saves. This codex does not.

[DK1]

well true. what about rending, I know its the to wound or take a wound diffrence but it sounds like its a hair line diffrence that could be played both ways, would make him worth his pts if he didnt make purifiers troops

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Taken the words literal I think it would rend and ing inv svs.

 

/facepalm

 

For the last time. It does not ignore invulnerable saves.

 

BRB Pg20

"Invulnerable saves...may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound"

 

Unless you can show me the section of the Cleansing Flames rules that specifically states that invulnerable saves may not be taken then they can. End of.

 

looking at it that way, does that mean in the old daemonhunter codex the psy weapons ing inv svs, does that mean they could be taken anyway?

 

The 4th edition daemonhunters codex specifically said that psycannon ignored invulnerable saves. This codex does not.

I agree that it you can take Inv Save against it. It needs to say that its ignores Inv Saves for it to ignore the Inv Save. The only reason it says you can take Armour Save from it so people knew it didn't ignore Armour Saves.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

well true. what about rending, I know its the to wound or take a wound diffrence but it sounds like its a hair line diffrence that could be played both ways, would make him worth his pts if he didnt make purifiers troops

The roll you do in the Cleansing Flame is a to wound roll and a close combat attack (per the FAQ). Crowe's close combat attacks Rend on a 4+, so by what was said in the FAQ and Master Swordsman, Cleansing Flame wounds and Rends on a 4+.