Warband size and ship transportation options

[minigun762]

There are two questions that I can't seem to find good answers to.

 

The first is trying to determine how big the average warband of Chaos Marines really is. To be clear, I'm using the term warband in its most generic and inclusive definition. With loyalists, we have the various groupings (squad, company, chapter etc) which gives us an approximate idea of strength but we don't have reliable methods to do that with Chaos forces.

 

The second is related to the first, how are these warbands traveling around? Do they each have their own fleet of ships or maybe just a single ship. Do they "own" the ships or are they paying another faction to taxi them around. How many Marines can you fit on a ship, again we have rough numbers for loyalist but do those hold true for Chaos?

 

Its Chaos so I could just say that everything is possible, but I prefer more concrete answers or examples.

[A D-B]

There are two questions that I can't seem to find good answers to.

 

The first is trying to determine how big the average warband of Chaos Marines really is. To be clear, I'm using the term warband in its most generic and inclusive definition. With loyalists, we have the various groupings (squad, company, chapter etc) which gives us an approximate idea of strength but we don't have reliable methods to do that with Chaos forces.

 

The second is related to the first, how are these warbands traveling around? Do they each have their own fleet of ships or maybe just a single ship. Do they "own" the ships or are they paying another faction to taxi them around. How many Marines can you fit on a ship, again we have rough numbers for loyalist but do those hold true for Chaos?

 

Its Chaos so I could just say that everything is possible, but I prefer more concrete answers or examples.

 

I'd venture the closest you'll get is that a "generic" warband has "some" Marines around from the Heresy, "some" recruited since then, and has "some" ships from their parent Legion, with "some" more stolen, and they'll number between a few hundred and a few thousand Marines. But you're probably not going to get answers to satisfy you on this, dude. That's because these are the fundamental questions behind every single player's collection, and their army. It's entirely down to personal choice. There's not going to be averages, really, or anything that stands out as more common than anything else.

 

I'm actually surprised someone with as much Chaos lore as yourself would even think there'd be concrete averages for this kind of thing. I don't mean that as an insult (because, well, it's not insulting), but the fact this is the Very Stuff entirely down to individual armies and warbands is what makes it impossible to answer. You'll find occasional one-line references here and there, such as "Word Bearer Hosts are generally the same size a Chapter" or whatever the exact sentence is, but they're often in increasingly outdated IA articles that reflect the fluff poorly in the rules they offer, and are rewritten through the Heresy series. (F'rex, Word Bearer Chapters are between a few hundred and a few thousand Marines - albeit ten thousand years ago).

 

I suspect that the next Codex: Chaos Space Marines will explain this better.

[minigun762]

I'm actually surprised someone with as much Chaos lore as yourself would even think there'd be concrete averages for this kind of thing. I don't mean that as an insult (because, well, it's not insulting), but the fact this is the Very Stuff entirely down to individual armies and warbands is what makes it impossible to answer.

 

That is a very fair point and one I have considered before. Its the most likely answer to be sure, its just not the answer I want. <_<

[totgeboren]

This varies immensely. Some renegade warbands might just have a single frigate, with room for no more marines and gear than you find in your average 40k army, whilst other, especially Legion-affiliated forces number many times the strength of a Chapter.

Legions like the Black Legion, the Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers all retain control of many of their Battle Barges and Cruisers from the Great Crusade, whilst Chapters who turn whole will take their Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges with them.

 

For example, in Dark Creed, the Word Bearers launch a massive assault on an imperial system, setting out with 13 (I think) 'Battleships'. I just skimmed a few pages of the book, but I didn't find how many of them were Battleships, Grand Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers or Cruisers, but it is safe to say they were not all 'Battleships' as BFG defines them.

3-4 cruisers is a substantial force in 40k, so the above 13 ships is a really big armada, and I guess the only time larger forces than this amass is during the Black Crusades.

 

In the chaos codex, the story where Huron captures a Space Wolf Strike Cruiser is portrayed as a big event. He had his own Battle Barge, and what seems to be mainly frigates and maybe some Strike Cruisers, and he is a fairly big player.

 

When a small number of marines defect, I assume they simply size control of a minor vessel and fly of into the sunset/Eye of Terror. Also, in Execution Hour (I think) a human nurgle-dedicated captain of a heavy cruiser had some plague marine bodyguards, though he is still the captain, so having ships hire their services to chaos marines might not be entirely unreasonable.

[The Colossus]

About 25,005.5 marines. Although that was just me taking the smallest warband I could conceive of (a lord and two five man squads) and angrons Armageddon server horde and finding the midpoint. If you had to have a number on it, I'd say between a loyalist company and 3 loyalist chapters worth of marines. As an average.

 

Having said all this, I don't personally agree with there being any sort of "standard chaos space marine warband", with each one being different to another, save for them all including traitor/renegade space marines.

 

My 50 pence.

[Brother Ambroz]

In my fluff I haven't yet decided on how large my actual chaos marine force will be. It's heavily augmented by armored brigades, renegade guardsman and dark mech. Mine survives mainly from their base of operations, a large moon just outside imperial space, haven to all sorts of pirates, xenos and traitors. It thrives on it's trade of slaves and with the profits from that, they create warmachines and weapons. The ships are theirs, either stolen, repaired or crafted by dark mech. Still working on alot of it but I think it fits the Night Lords pretty well.

[minigun762]

For example, in Dark Creed, the Word Bearers launch a massive assault on an imperial system, setting out with 13 (I think) 'Battleships'. I just skimmed a few pages of the book, but I didn't find how many of them were Battleships, Grand Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers or Cruisers, but it is safe to say they were not all 'Battleships' as BFG defines them.

3-4 cruisers is a substantial force in 40k, so the above 13 ships is a really big armada, and I guess the only time larger forces than this amass is during the Black Crusades.

 

I remember that part because it stuck out to me as a pretty massive concentration of marines and naval power, especially from a single legion. 13 Capitol ships is a significant force and while I can't remember the exact number of Marines involved, I believe it hovered around 8,000-10,000. From a loyalist perspective, that would represent the combined naval power of 3-4 full chapters with twice that many chapter's worth of marines.

 

And while I can't point to a particular line in the book, I never got the sense that the force above represented the bulk or majority of what the Word Bearers had access to. Add to that the fact that the Word Bearers themselves admit to being outmanned by the Black Legion 10:1 (I believe) and we're starting to get some truly massive numbers of ships and marines.

 

Maybe that would have been a better way to phrase the question. Not looking for an average number but talking about CSM warbands in terms of the threat they represent to the Imperium. How a raiding force differs in strength and composition compared to a black crusade fleet.

[Excessus]

The first is trying to determine how big the average warband of Chaos Marines really is. To be clear, I'm using the term warband in its most generic and inclusive definition. With loyalists, we have the various groupings (squad, company, chapter etc) which gives us an approximate idea of strength but we don't have reliable methods to do that with Chaos forces.

Well, I think you answered your own question there really. A warband is either of these things(well, maybe not squad...then again, why not?) and up to a crusade I guess. The first war for Armageddon would be Angron's "warband" assaulting a planet, while in my standard 1750p game there are around forty marines present(well, it's Alpha Legion, forty marines the opponent can actually SEE!). Though in my fluff they operate from Ghorstangrad and can most likely call up some reinforcements if necessary...

 

The second is related to the first, how are these warbands traveling around? Do they each have their own fleet of ships or maybe just a single ship. Do they "own" the ships or are they paying another faction to taxi them around. How many Marines can you fit on a ship, again we have rough numbers for loyalist but do those hold true for Chaos?

My warband, cell #379, most likely have a mish-mash of ships they have collected, everything from "original" Alpha Legion ships from pre-heresy, to Emperor's Sword's ships taken over at the battle for Ghorstangrad and much newer built vessels, both "acquired" from loyalists and built by the dark mechanicum...

 

 

So the answer to both your questions is probably: "Yes"... ;)

[Trevak Dal]

My Nightblades are remnants of the Death Shadows, my particular warband has 1 ship under their control (a Strike Cruiser w/Reflex Shielding)

 

My World Eater warband get taxied about. Due to personal history between the two commanders, my World Eaters often take the field as support elements of my Nightblades, but they aren't taxied by the Nightblades. They had a few raiders, but they just fell apart due to crew death. They are at the same battles, fighting for the same side.

[Kol Saresk]

I want a Planetkiller for my fleet. So now I have to think of a way to rob the Black Legion. :ph34r:

[Warsmith Aznable]

Since we've started talking about our own warbands, I reckon mine as a "reinforced company", with 10-15 squads of Iron Hounds with several "lesser warbands" (squad sized) attached to them to make it so I can play a variety of lists. Roughly about two hundred fighting men strong at any given time, maybe a little more. I see the main force occupying the best areas of the vessel, with the mercenaries and cultists staking claim and making little strongholds in the deep and hidden parts of the ship. Who knows what I might find hiding in a long forgotten storeroom? Just the other day, while tracing wires to fix a dodgy comm connection, a tech crew stumbled upon an old storage facilty that had something called a Decimator Siege Engines stowed away. Tzeentch Himself alone knows what may emerge from the dark corners of the ship when the next codex comes out...

 

In my second IA I placed them in a stolen Battle Barge, because I figured this could fit all their auxiliary units and extra vehicles with a breathing room. Since then I've thought this was a little "inside the box". I think BFG narrowed down what was available because of the need to narrow things down to make a workable game, and this affected how we as players think about it. Chaos Marines could fly around in whatever they got their hands on, and the sky is no limit when it comes to what we could imagine if we felt like it. Not that it makes any difference to the table top, but in my eventual third attempt at a decent IA for the good old Iron Hounds I might write something very different than "stole a Battle Barge from the Word Bearers."

[TheDarkApostle]

For my Word Bearers Host (warband) I have them set up over three main vessels. One Styx class heavy cruiser, one Devastation class cruiser and two Murder class cruisers. The Styx cruiser being the flagship of course.

 

Now I haven't really thought of the actual numerical size of the warband at all but I figure with these four ships they can get around and one of the ships can even break off from the main bulk for a planetary raid or to participate in something else (Legio Arena of Deaths for example) while still "feeling right" with the main fluff. Which is also the reason I've chosen those specific cruiser classes.

 

The Styx being primarily armed with several launch bays really gives you that feel of a flagship spearheading a planetary invasion and dropping the bulk of the force on the planet below.

 

The Devastation cruiser following the same principle making it an ideal ship to break of from the main "fleet" to do it's own thing being armed with several launch bays as well (AoDs as cited earlier.)

 

And finally the two Murder cruisers hanging back and providing fire support / making sure the skies are clear for the Styx cruiser.

 

Since I've recently decided to add a smaller band of Sanctified to my Word Bearers I'm going to give them a cruiser of their own as well, they feel like they should be organised enough to be able to "acquire" their own means of transportation.

 

Apart from these four, soon to be five, "major" vessels of course there would be a handful of raiders and smaller escorts and whatnot they would have picked up along the way.

 

Now giving some thought to the actual numbers of my warband while writing the post I suppose a good 300-350 marines for the Word Bearer host feel good in my gut. With an extra maybe 50-70 marines for the Sanctified host? Small enough to be a lesser warband which would not attract too much attention while still being enough to not be wiped out too easily during a campaign or two. Adding a few hosts of Daemons to that and it's a sizeable force you can have some fun with while still not being too "over the top" if you catch my drift.

 

Like a warband running around with 5 Planetkillers and a dozen Battleships and Grand Cruisers :P

 

My two cents on the topic at least.

 

TDA

[Kol Saresk]

*snip

 

Like a warband running around with 5 Planetkillers and a dozen Battleships and Grand Cruisers :P

 

*snip

But but but but but but but but but...... Can I at least get a space hulk loaded up with torpedoe tubes then?

[Olis]

But but but but but but but but but...... Can I at least get a space hulk loaded up with torpedoe tubes then?

 

You can have one made from nothing but torpedo tubes. Nothing else. The gods have spoken. :P

[Hellios]

My Tzeentch Warband has no ships (It uses the webway!) and if we don't count rubrics then it has 18 marines :P

[Hyaenidae]

Ah hell, why not? I'll pitch my army as an example of a Marine-short Warband. My Ironbound are what remains of a once loyal Iron Hands Successor that was nearly annihilated by the Dark Mechanicus. Barely 50 Marines are still alive at this point, though 19 carry on in the half life of a dreadnought. The Ironbound are more concerned with conducting daemonic bio-mechanical experiments on mortals and themselves, or building Daemonic Engines (yeah, I have to own one of those new Decimators, lol. Fit my army too well) and suffer from multiple personality disorder, so rarely leave their Daemon-Forge (former chapter monestary) except to sell their wares, or collect more raw mortal material to work on. The only time they'll move out together is when the Gods speak of ancient Tech or STC's to pillage. Lack of a better word, they are both mad scientists and custodians of their corrupted home. They don't bother with recruiting aspirants, and only take in other Astartes rarely (usually because such adoptees are quickly cornered, tortured, and experimented upon themselves). Their ships range from the utterly Daemonic, freshly created in the Daemon-Forge's orbital Flesh Docks, to the stolen and heavily modified; the size of the fleet depends on what has been made recently, and what has been sold to other warbands.

 

In conclusion, I have barely more than half of a Company of Astartes, but make up for it with skitarri, Siege Engines, Titans, and other daemonic machines to fill out my ranks to apocalyptic levels. My fleet size ranges from miniscule to monstorous, depending on what's on hand.

[Warsmith Aznable]

orbital Flesh Docks

 

Must. Not. Make. Slaneeshi. Joke. :)

[Hyaenidae]

orbital Flesh Docks

 

Must. Not. Make. Slaneeshi. Joke. :)

 

Giggity.

[Kol Saresk]

I always knew Family Guy was tainted by the warp. Explains why it's so addicting.

[Azekai]

My Warp Locusts make heavy use of space hulks, infesting their bowels and forcing the rancid vessels through the warp through daemonic compacts and the will of Father Nurgle. These great bloated ships are always surrounded by landers, tow-boats, and small gunships, swarming about like voracious parasites.

 

Though there are only about 120 marines in the warband, their numbers are bolstered by a number of powerful daemonic entities and machines that shadow them in the warp, waiting on the edge of reality for the chance to pour forth and despoil. The Locusts are more than happy to give other chaos forces a lift, though only the most desperate are willing to take them up on their offer.

[Hyaenidae]

My Warp Locusts make heavy use of space hulks, infesting their bowels and forcing the rancid vessels through the warp through daemonic compacts and the will of Father Nurgle. These great bloated ships are always surrounded by landers, tow-boats, and small gunships, swarming about like voracious parasites.

 

Though there are only about 120 marines in the warband, their numbers are bolstered by a number of powerful daemonic entities and machines that shadow them in the warp, waiting on the edge of reality for the chance to pour forth and despoil. The Locusts are more than happy to give other chaos forces a lift, though only the most desperate are willing to take them up on their offer.

 

Nifty idea. I like that.

[Kol Saresk]

My Warp Locusts make heavy use of space hulks, infesting their bowels and forcing the rancid vessels through the warp through daemonic compacts and the will of Father Nurgle. These great bloated ships are always surrounded by landers, tow-boats, and small gunships, swarming about like voracious parasites.

 

Though there are only about 120 marines in the warband, their numbers are bolstered by a number of powerful daemonic entities and machines that shadow them in the warp, waiting on the edge of reality for the chance to pour forth and despoil. The Locusts are more than happy to give other chaos forces a lift, though only the most desperate are willing to take them up on their offer.

Thank the warp for bug spray and sulfur water.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

I'd imagine chaos spacefaring vessels are similar to amphibious assault ships in the way that the marines are a small fraction of the navy crew needed to run normal operations.

 

My own "warband" as an example, the Impossible Fortress contains about 500 "civilian" magi (most of which own/operation kiosks in what might as well be a ship pretending to be a galaxy artifact black market, 500 actual crew members, 50 Rubricae and about 20 sorcerers (including Ahriman).

 

When you can teleport wherever you want (not just talking about Tsons), the only need for your ship is a place to hold your treasure.

 

Even though most legion fellas are probably mad in the head, I am sure they are capable of operating like Astartes and probably want their space between slaughtering.. Personal quarters comes to mind.. So I bet the troop capacity is about like the loyalists. I also imagine that most ships are stolen or borrowed, if they aren't "original".

[totgeboren]

A nifty side effect of people talking about their own warbands is that we get a glimpse of how the 'average' warband actually gets around, since these warbands are as close to an average selection as you can get (seeing as the numbers and specifics of the warbands you want to sample only exists inside our heads).

 

My own warband, the Word Bearers of the 7th Host, commanded by Dark Apostle Orias are at the head of a powerful armada. The flagship is the Will of the Gods, a Despoiler class battleship, and also acts as the base of operations for the Host. The Styx class heavy cruiser Hand of Erebus is a relatively recent addition to the Host, being given as reward from its namesake for deeds I will not go into here. The ancient Hastur, a Devestation class cruiser, acts as a strike cruiser, its speed and versatility making it incredibly useful as a raiding vessel.

The armada is bolstered by 4 more cruisers of different configurations, whose crew mainly consists of humans with a few Word Bearer overseers, and a dozen escorts.

 

So all in all, the 7th Host number slightly more than a loyalist chapter, but as their loyalist counterparts, they seldom deploy all their forces en mass.

 

So, really, my warband is comparable in strength to the average Space Marine chapter, maybe slightly larger. But then again, they have substantial human and armour support, in addition to seeding rebellions on the planets they intend to attack.

[Kraull the Rampager]

I personally make a 'standard' size for different warband idea's I have. Being between 3-4k in an army list.

 

My Night Lord's warband, being roughly 100 marines in total is just over 3000 points. I've only given them a single heresy-era Cruiser (not had that much thought in regards to transport to be honest).

However, my World Eater's use a 6k army list, and reach just over 100 marines, with loads of war machines and daemon engines.

 

This isn't to say that the average size would be 100 marines. I've made 3-4k lists with only 27 marines. And even 2000 point lists with 122 marines (these are usually for fun lists)

 

In regards to making massive warbands, I see it more as one Chaos warlord beating down on a whole bunch of others and making the weaker ones work for him. So as a Chaos warlord beats more and more bigger and bigger warbands into submission...his warband grows, whether through attracting those who see him as more powerful or offering an ultimatum to those who lost some warband war.."Join me or die" kinda thing.

 

That's how I tend to make a 'general' size warband. When I wanna get a big bigger, I simply make several with different beliefs and backgrounds (quickly thought up) and add them together...making the strongest the war-leader.