Lascannon/Missile Launcher Dread vs Rifleman Dread

[appiah4]

I keep looking at the two and I really fail to see how and why anyone would actually go for the Rifleman Dread. 4 TL S7 AP4 shots vs 1 TL S9 shot and 1 S8 shot? The Rifleman looks terrible for shooting at anything better than AV12 (and actually not that hot at shooting AV12 either) and anything with MEQ or better armor. OK I get it, it pops transports with AV11/AV10 but even my crappy bolters can glance an AV10 transport to halt at 24". Why is this thing so popular? The Lascannon/Missile dreadnought is so much more versatile and useful.. What am I missing?

[DarkGuard]

Price and reliability. You are missing the very points of a Rifleman. The Rifleman pops transport reliably and for a low price. Bolters do not pop AV10 unless it's a last result. And against AV11 (a lot of that in the various Marines lists) they do nothing. Rifleman, on the other hand, handle them superbly. You can fire them at AV12, but as you've said they become more of a suppression tool there. AV12 is commonly dealt with any missiles in the army, and AV12+ by lascannons and meltaguns.

 

So the idea is, your opponent has lots of vehicles on the board, many are transports. What's better? The 4 TL-S7 shots? Or the one TL-S9 shot and the S8 shot. The Rifleman hits more consistently. More hits = pens. More pens= higher chance to do something like wreck or immobilize the transport. The latter option is subpar against AV11, probably better at AV12, but then you're looking at melta for AV13-14. Small niche of targets there. It's also 20pts more expensive than a Rifleman. 20pts is a couple of combi-weapons on Tactical squads, or 4 on Sternguard. And multiple that across a couple or even three Rifleman, and that's a lot of points spent on a subpar choice.

 

The TL-LC/ML choice is still a good choice, and is used because people may not have access to a Rifleman either through Codex (Black Templars, Dark Angels), are parts to make one. It is by no means bad. It can deal with a wide range of armour and can even at a pinch deal with infantry (though that well). However, for versatility I'm afraid it's beaten hands down by the Typhoon, which can mince infantry and threaten armour well for only 90pts, that's a 55pt saving, quite a lot. And it's more mobile.

 

The thing is, the Rifleman is popular, and would only be popular on a whole variety of sites and actual gaming lists if it was good. And it is. In a mech orientated edition that has a ton of light vehicles often carrying units inside it is the king at taking them down. People take it for reliability and cheapness, two very good reasons. You don't use them against AV13+, and rarely AV12. You don't use them against Marines unless there's no other targets. Sometimes versatility isn't worth it's price, and for the points I'd much rather take a Rifleman than the TL-LC/ML, for taking down transports it's about quantity and not quality.

[appiah4]

I think everyone is missing the point that you can only fire at a SINGLE transport with all your 4 TL S7 shots.

 

Will your 4 TL S7 shots bring down the AV11 transport?

 

Hell yeah.

 

But so will 1 TL S9 and 1 S8. Statistically, they aren't all that different. But my TL S9 and S8 has a chance at popping AV13 and even AV14. Yours does jack against anything with AV13+ or with Power Armor or better.

 

Let me run the numbers;

 

The Dreadnought has WS 4 so hits on 3+, the opponent has AV11. With 4 TL S7 shots you get 3,55 hits, but only 1,185 penetrates due to penning with 5+. With 1 TL S9 alone I get 0,889 hits and 0,593 penetrates due to penning at 3+. With the added S8 shot I get 0,667 hits and 0,333 penetrates due to penning at 4+, for a total of 0,926.

 

So it's 1,185 pens vs 0,926 pens a round we're talking about.

 

Oh, let me not forget; you also get 0,592 glances while I get 0,259 glances, both if which are pretty much useless. So there's nothing terribly interesting there either.

 

So I'm losing out on 0,25 penetrates against a transport but getting a chance to glance or penetrate AV13 or AV14 tanks. How is that not better?

 

The TL-LC/ML choice is still a good choice, and is used because people may not have access to a Rifleman either through Codex (Black Templars, Dark Angels), are parts to make one. It is by no means bad. It can deal with a wide range of armour and can even at a pinch deal with infantry (though that well). However, for versatility I'm afraid it's beaten hands down by the Typhoon, which can mince infantry and threaten armour well for only 90pts, that's a 55pt saving, quite a lot. And it's more mobile.

 

The thing is, the Rifleman is popular, and would only be popular on a whole variety of sites and actual gaming lists if it was good. And it is. In a mech orientated edition that has a ton of light vehicles often carrying units inside it is the king at taking them down. People take it for reliability and cheapness, two very good reasons. You don't use them against AV13+, and rarely AV12. You don't use them against Marines unless there's no other targets. Sometimes versatility isn't worth it's price, and for the points I'd much rather take a Rifleman than the TL-LC/ML, for taking down transports it's about quantity and not quality.

 

The Typhoon will go down to even massed Bolter fire, and Internet-Wisdom is not exactly always true. I see a lot of things on a lot of lists on the net that I think are not good (Vindicators are a good example), so that proves nothing, in my opinion.

[greatcrusade08]

please god no mathhammer.. my dice never roll statistically or even come up with averages, so mathhammer means jack.

 

the most important factor for me is boredom, every time i see a pair of riflemen i roll my eyes in disgust.. its like people cant even think for themselves anymore.

it gets right on my nipples if im honest.

give change a chance, be unique, you might like it.

[Chengar Qordath]

Oh, let me not forget; you also get 0,592 glances while I get 0,259 glances, both if which are pretty much useless. So there's nothing terribly interesting there either.

Glances are far from useless; an immobilized transport isn't very good at transporting anything, and against you average Razorback, or other light vehicles with a single good weapon, destroying that weapon is equally big. Even shaken/stunned can keep the vehicle from moving/shooting, which can be useful sometimes; a glance on a Vindicator's side armor means one more turn before it unleashes its pieplate of doom.

 

As for why its so popular, on top of low price and reliability, the Rifleman is a great light-vehicle buster, and light vehicle spam is a fairly popular list concept. Also bears mentioning that not every opponent you're going to face comes with a 3+ armor save on their infantry.

[appiah4]

Oh, let me not forget; you also get 0,592 glances while I get 0,259 glances, both if which are pretty much useless. So there's nothing terribly interesting there either.

Glances are far from useless; an immobilized transport isn't very good at transporting anything, and against you average Razorback, or other light vehicles with a single good weapon, destroying that weapon is equally big. Even shaken/stunned can keep the vehicle from moving/shooting, which can be useful sometimes; a glance on a Vindicator's side armor means one more turn before it unleashes its pieplate of doom.

 

As for why its so popular, on top of low price and reliability, the Rifleman is a great light-vehicle buster, and light vehicle spam is a fairly popular list concept. Also bears mentioning that not every opponent you're going to face comes with a 3+ armor save on their infantry.

 

Which is all good and fine until you realize that the 0,25 extra glances will only be useful on a 4+ which means a 0,125 useful glance advantage per turn of shooting. This much of an extra glance chance is not worth the effort to type all the words above. Yes glances can be useful but the number of useful glances you get from 4 shots compared to 2 shots are completely negligable.

[JamesI]

The main thing for the rifleman is the low points cost. It is much cheaper than a TL-LC dread.

 

Personally I prefer a Predator with auto/las over both of them (except for Grey Knights, rifleman dreads are awesome for GKs)

[Chengar Qordath]

Oh, let me not forget; you also get 0,592 glances while I get 0,259 glances, both if which are pretty much useless. So there's nothing terribly interesting there either.

Glances are far from useless; an immobilized transport isn't very good at transporting anything, and against you average Razorback, or other light vehicles with a single good weapon, destroying that weapon is equally big. Even shaken/stunned can keep the vehicle from moving/shooting, which can be useful sometimes; a glance on a Vindicator's side armor means one more turn before it unleashes its pieplate of doom.

 

As for why its so popular, on top of low price and reliability, the Rifleman is a great light-vehicle buster, and light vehicle spam is a fairly popular list concept. Also bears mentioning that not every opponent you're going to face comes with a 3+ armor save on their infantry.

 

Which is all good and fine until you realize that the 0,25 extra glances will only be useful on a 4+ which means a 0,125 useful glance advantage per turn of shooting. This much of an extra glance chance is not worth the effort to type all the words above. Yes glances can be useful but the number of useful glances you get from 4 shots compared to 2 shots are completely negligable.

Sometimes that .125 is the difference between immobilizing a Rhino full of Khorne Berzerkers on the first turn and letting them get close enough to charge your lines. Math-hammer is nice and all, but a 40k is about a lot more than statistical averages.

 

Also, I'll repeat that shaken isn't useless, just less impressive than some of the other results. Stopping a vehicle (and if it's a transport, any passengers in the transport) from shooting can be a useful benefit. A single shaken result won't be a game changer, but less enemy shooting = fewer casualties = more shooting on your next turn.

[dswanick]

Nah, here's the real reason a Dread with 2 TLACs rules :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v_vtPB4uLDA/ThPM6bFanqI/AAAAAAAAABE/jehelnwyGco/s1600/RiflemanBattleTech.jpg

[maturin]

+1 Internets to dswanick!

 

<_<

 

 

 

 

EDIT (to make my post relevant):

 

Appiah, by your own mathhammer you've calculated that the Rifleman gets more pens than TLLC/ML - not by much, true, - but as others have said the Rifleman is much cheaper. There's a lot to be said for that.

 

Though to make my post even more schizophrenic - I agree with GC08 on boring stuff. But for some reason, Riflemen don't seem to be that popular around here. Maybe it has to do with the relative scarcity of C:SM armies in my meta.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

What about a PC / ML as an alternative to the TL-LC / ML?

 

It's the same price as the Rifle Dread, and while a downgrade vs light armor, its an upgrade vs infantry so I believe it is much more versatile in that regard. You do lose 12" on the Plasma Cannon however that is mitigated by the fact that it moves and shoots. I feel like this build could potentially really come into its own when being wielded by a Venerable Dreadnought...

 

I know points are a major issue and for points / efficiency the Rifle Dread can't be beat... however I feel it's worth it to explore alternatives.

[minigun762]

As far as it being boring to field rifleman dreads, I think the easiest answer is to not spam exact copies of your units, especially something like a dreadnought that is supposed to be unique within the chapter.

 

I'd much rather see a LC/ML dread and a rifleman dread next to each other then two of either. This way you can have your cake and blast it to hell too.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with GC08, don't mathhammer it, please don't. Let me tell you, with two dice rolls you're not likely to reliably do much against a tank. With 4 twin-linked ones you are. Single lascannons are bad because one bad roll cancels them out. Rifleman are good because they have so many dice to throw. They are reliable. I take them to take down light vehicles, I take different units for heavy vehicles. Therefore, I'm fine paying less for a better and more reliable light vehicle hunter.

 

Typhoons go down to bolter fire? Yes, once bolters are in range. Typhoons, played properly, should almost never be in that range. They're cheaper, mobile enough to escape bolters, and IMO just better for their points than TL-LC/ML Dreads. Internet wisdom isn't everything, but then Vindicators are actually good tanks if used properly. And I'd much rather take a Vindicator over a LC/ML Dread. Stronger, more likely to pen a tank, more versatile, and if used properly more durable. And cheaper.

[Sons of the Forge]

What about a PC / ML

 

I can say hand on heart I have had greater success with that combo on my dread then what used to be my riflemen (now a PC/ML dread). Personally as people have stated riflemen are very common I mean why have all the same units. I enjoy having more PC in my list being the plasma nut I am plus I already run ML Devs and PC Devs so feel I have enough S8 S7 shots to take out transports and on another plus cant beat fragging enemies to death.

[Excubitor]

Since Dreadnoughts in some lists make up the vast majority of my transport-busting ability I've tried out a few different loadouts and one I quite like is the TL-Auto+TL-Las build. Same as the ML/TL-las in price, but for me far more reliable in accuracy and in damage caused. Still love my rifleman dreads, but I'm finding myself throwing in more las love now too.

[Gideon999]

I like to run mine with one TL autocannon, and one DCCW. the twin linked nature of the autocannon means you can still get those transports, but means that if something gets close you can crump it but good as well. I run two for redundancy and the seem to work quite well for an all comers list.

 

That being said I field mine with a pair of typhoons and a pair of 5 ML long fang squads so Im not hurting for long range firepower.

[DerekLee688]

Typhoons eat it when vs. Riflemen, but because of meta, this may not be a problem. The thing about rifleman, they really caught on when GK's got blessed hull S:8 riflemen that could get scoring using certain HQ's. I figure they had to boost GK riflemen because GK can't take 4xML devestators, 5xML long fangs, combi-preds, Multi Melta Attack bikes, regular bikes with Combi-melta/2xMG/MMAB, HF/MM Land speeders, Vulcan, or typhoons.

 

Codex players said hey, I can run those too without changing dex. However, since C:SM has come out, vehicles have gotten tougher, IG air cav is fast and AV12, GK have blessed hull, Necrons have AV12 shielding, etc.(I can give at least one reson per new codex); in truth S:8 AP:3 weapons are becoming the hottest things. GK paladins instant death, Instant death MEQ, Nidzilla only has 3+ armor save, more dreads are stalking the battlefields, etc.(I can name at least two per codex) C:SM rifleman has become victim of codex creep, the proof is how likely a GK rifleman will survive being stunlocked and in return stunlock and kill a C:SM rifleman.

 

I figure sucessful (competive/otherwise) C:SM players don't use riflemen as their primary Anti tank. They have S:8, S:9, and melta. Keep using TLLC/ML to kill riflemen and have fun.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Nah, here's the real reason a Dread with 2 TLACs rules :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v_vtPB4uLDA/ThPM6bFanqI/AAAAAAAAABE/jehelnwyGco/s1600/RiflemanBattleTech.jpg

 

 

Except the BattleTech Rifleman had a heavy laser and an AC-5 in each arm, which would best be represented in 40k by a TL-LC and a TL-AC. Which may be roughly the middle ground between the two options discussed.

 

Being no tactics and mathhammer-nerd, has anyone ever considered that option? Would it make sense, be useful or anything? At first glance, it loosk interesting, with three transport-popping TL shots and still a a chance against heavy armour.

[minigun762]

which would best be represented in 40k by a TL-LC and a TL-AC. Which may be roughly the middle ground between the two options discussed.

 

Being no tactics and mathhammer-nerd, has anyone ever considered that option? Would it make sense, be useful or anything? At first glance, it loosk interesting, with three transport-popping TL shots and still a a chance against heavy armour.

 

I think its a good compromise though you will have to resist the temptation to take pot shots at AV13+ or 2+ armor save units. The weapons have enough overlap that the main targets (AV10-12) will be the same but don't get the "spammy" feeling of using the same weapon on each arm.

[IronDragon66]

Nah, here's the real reason a Dread with 2 TLACs rules :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v_vtPB4uLDA/ThPM6bFanqI/AAAAAAAAABE/jehelnwyGco/s1600/RiflemanBattleTech.jpg

 

 

Yeah im totally going to have to agree here......

- the reason why a rifleman dread is so good, is cause 4 cannons is just totally badace ;)

[DarkGuard]

Typhoons eat it when vs. Riflemen, but because of meta, this may not be a problem. The thing about rifleman, they really caught on when GK's got blessed hull S:8 riflemen that could get scoring using certain HQ's. I figure they had to boost GK riflemen because GK can't take 4xML devestators, 5xML long fangs, combi-preds, Multi Melta Attack bikes, regular bikes with Combi-melta/2xMG/MMAB, HF/MM Land speeders, Vulcan, or typhoons.

 

Codex players said hey, I can run those too without changing dex. However, since C:SM has come out, vehicles have gotten tougher, IG air cav is fast and AV12, GK have blessed hull, Necrons have AV12 shielding, etc.(I can give at least one reson per new codex); in truth S:8 AP:3 weapons are becoming the hottest things. GK paladins instant death, Instant death MEQ, Nidzilla only has 3+ armor save, more dreads are stalking the battlefields, etc.(I can name at least two per codex) C:SM rifleman has become victim of codex creep, the proof is how likely a GK rifleman will survive being stunlocked and in return stunlock and kill a C:SM rifleman.

 

I figure sucessful (competive/otherwise) C:SM players don't use riflemen as their primary Anti tank. They have S:8, S:9, and melta. Keep using TLLC/ML to kill riflemen and have fun.

 

But a lot of players still use MEQ, and only one MEQ army has anti-suppression in it.

 

You're right, compared to the vast majority of new armies, S8 is the better option, and I run ML Devs and Typhoons as my prime ranged anti-tank. But Rifleman are still very good in MEQ dominated areas, I suppose it depends on your meta.

[pyroknight]

Nah, here's the real reason a Dread with 2 TLACs rules :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v_vtPB4uLDA/ThPM6bFanqI/AAAAAAAAABE/jehelnwyGco/s1600/RiflemanBattleTech.jpg

Except the BattleTech Rifleman had a heavy laser and an AC-5 in each arm, which would best be represented in 40k by a TL-LC and a TL-AC. Which may be roughly the middle ground between the two options discussed.

 

There is more than one variant of the Battletech Rifleman. While the original had a large laser and Autocannon on each arm, some of them do have 2 autocannons on each arm. I think the look also contributed to the popularization of the name.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Except the BattleTech Rifleman had a heavy laser and an AC-5 in each arm, which would best be represented in 40k by a TL-LC and a TL-AC. Which may be roughly the middle ground between the two options discussed.

Which is why I use Twin Las/Twin Auto Dreadnoughts. It's better against heavy armor/heavy infantry (for those days you end up facing Death/Logan/Draigowing, multiple Land Raiders, and when you end up killing off all of their squishy stuff/have a "kill it NOW!" moment with Thunderwolf Cav and the like).

 

 

There is more than one variant of the Battletech Rifleman. While the original had a large laser and Autocannon on each arm, some of them do have 2 autocannons on each arm.

Yep, the IIC 2.

[maturin]

Ok, to take the thread almost completely OT and put on my Super-Otaku hat:

 

If we're going to quibble by comparing what the Rifleman's armament is to the dread version, then I'll point out that we should actually be calling this the "Defender" pattern dreadnought:

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i389/jchen101/Defender-1.jpg

as the Defender Destroid from Macross (subsequently morphed by Harmony Gold into Robotech, and then copied by FASA as the basis for the Rifleman) was armed with: 2-barrel Erlikon 78mm automatic cannon Type 966 PFG Contraves set (aka "Contraves II") x 2 (200 rounds ammunition each).

 

Which happens to fit the description of 2 twin-linked autocannons quite nicely. :)

 

 

I haven't tried a TLLC/TLAC dread; can anyone comment on effectiveness vs. in the increased price? I'm not sure the extra points spent on the TLLC is worth it...

[DerekLee688]

TLLC/TLAC: three shots all twin linked & same range. You can shoot at AV14 but the TLAC is wasted. Someone may math hammer this out, but I'm guessing you'll lose some AV:10 and maybe AV:11 killing power, but pick up some AV:12-13 potentcy, but AV:11 may very well go up too. If you are going after soft targets, for whatever reason, the TLLC will do better vs MEQ/TEQ/GKpaladins. Lasscannons and Powerfists are both useful upgrades but usually some of the most expensive, meaning you need to know what you're doing with them. Is that going to be the only Lascannon shot in your army or will you try to double up on "cheaper" ones like Tac. squad, combi-pred(s), or razorback(s).

 

I try to have multiples of at least two anti-armor weapons: typhoons or ML in general, and fast melta. I'm either going to win a shoot-out with orks/nids or have to rush a IG parking lot, necron phalanx, or corner a tau hammerhead. Got to out range the choppy and out maneuver the shooty. <-- take this as my change to the age old saying "dakka the choppy and chop the dakka.