Lascannon/Missile Launcher Dread vs Rifleman Dread

[minigun762]

TLLC/TLAC: three shots all twin linked & same range. You can shoot at AV14 but the TLAC is wasted. Someone may math hammer this out, but I'm guessing you'll lose some AV:10 and maybe AV:11 killing power, but pick up some AV:12-13 potentcy, but AV:11 may very well go up too.

 

Lets see, assuming BS4 and no cover saves I come up with this:

 

2x TLAC

AV10 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 2.37 damage results

AV11 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 1.78 damage results

AV12 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV13 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 0.59 damage results

AV14 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 0 damage results

TLAC + TLLC

AV10 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 2.07 damage results

AV11 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 1.63 damage results

AV12 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV13 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 0.74 damage results

AV14 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 0.30 damage results

 

Assuming I did my math right (feel free to double check it) the two autocannons are superior on light targets, the same on AV12 and weaker on heavy targets compared to autocannon/lascannon mix. In all cases, the difference is fairly minor and I would call the two loadouts equivalent.

 

You pay more for the TLLC/TLAC version but then again you do get AP2 instead of AP4.

[Ming]

However all the discussion goes, be reminded for utility that most of the SM's opponents are rocking out with AV13+ on their primary vehicles now (anything newcron, for example), so having your stationary dread capable to pen AV13 is almost a requirement unless you have it covered elsewhere.

[KhorneHunter57x]

You pay more for the TLLC/TLAC version but then again you do get AP2 instead of AP4.

Combined with the S > 8. Useful against Nobz, Paladins, 'Nid Warriors, and other T4 Multi-wounds.

[DarkGuard]

You pay more for the TLLC/TLAC version but then again you do get AP2 instead of AP4.

Combined with the S > 8. Useful against Nobz, Paladins, 'Nid Warriors, and other T4 Multi-wounds.

 

But it's only one shot, so not so helpful. Best used for whittling down or finishing off stragglers. Start with krak missile volley from Devs/Typhoons and then snipe.

 

The TLLC/TLAC is intriguing me, not sure if I can justify its points cost though.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I'm not advocating that the TLLC/TLAC Dreadnought be taken as your primary method of dealing with such units, but that the upgrade would be useful in said scenarios. It has about the same effectiveness against the primary targets of the 2xTLAC Dreadnought (as indicated by minigun earlier in the thread) yet offers additional capability against tougher targets. Once its primary targets are neutralized, it offers greater flexability against other "hard" targets. The loss of a shot does weaken it against more fragile infantry, but it is better against targets that are tougher than the 2xTLAC's primary targets.

 

Is the TLLC/TLAC Dreadnought for everyone? No. Does it cover the same range of targets as the 2xTLAC? Yes. Should it be your primary method of dealing with harder targets? Of course not. But does it offer a bit more versatility than the 2xTLAC (for about 15% more points)? Yes, and I think it has merit because of that.

[Captain Idaho]

It's an interesting proposition. It seems to operate in a similar manner (i.e. It's strength being versatility) to the Assault Cannon/Autocannon, though opposite ends of the spectrum. The Assault Cannon/Autocannon variant puts out more shots but it's optimum range is short, so is a genuine strategic choice to make.

[DerekLee688]

The decrease in AV10 is neglegable. But anything to raise AV 13 is good. Keep in mind we're not inventing new units, but new roles in an army. This unit is still fire support but with a tiny bit more versitility in targets that can be reasonabl taken down. It would be sweet if TLLC/TLAC dread just stun locked a big/fast target while melta races to it.

[Ming]

Notice how we can't have TL MM....

[greatcrusade08]

Notice how we can't have TL MM....

 

if we could, everyone and thier mums would load up a couple in drop pods for anti-tank.

 

what id like to see is dual assault cannon, that will show those silly riflemen a thing or two

[Captain Idaho]

My suggestion is halfway there ;)

 

Seriously though, a dual Assault Cannon is worth more than double a single Assault Cannon so I would be worried the thing would be either prohibitively expensive or would overshadow other options. Of course it could be appropriately costed by GW, but then after the Grey Knights fiasco I doubt it very much! ;)

[DerekLee688]

Dual TLMM in a vulcan drop pod army? *drool* I'd rather have dual Plasma cannon, not enough options for plasma cannons: not on pred, razorback, terminators, land speeders, or land raiders.

 

I'm wishing for TL-cyclone or Typhoon launchers. Think we should completely phase out autocannons if we can't swap out the ammo or have Anti-air/skimmer for them. Do our elite warriors need cheap ammo based weapons? Outnumbered and unsupported we have to make due with hand me down Imperial Guard weapons? I say hand me down because they figured out how to do alot more than we can do with them.

[spartan249]

My suggestion is halfway there :P

 

Seriously though, a dual Assault Cannon is worth more than double a single Assault Cannon so I would be worried the thing would be either prohibitively expensive or would overshadow other options. Of course it could be appropriately costed by GW, but then after the Grey Knights fiasco I doubt it very much! :)

 

Hmm... what was that new FW thing called, the Contemptor Mortis Pattern? Oh yeah, that thing with the equivalent of 3 Assault Cannons? I'm definitely fumbling with my belt buckle as we speak~

[appiah4]

TLLC/TLAC: three shots all twin linked & same range. You can shoot at AV14 but the TLAC is wasted. Someone may math hammer this out, but I'm guessing you'll lose some AV:10 and maybe AV:11 killing power, but pick up some AV:12-13 potentcy, but AV:11 may very well go up too.

 

Lets see, assuming BS4 and no cover saves I come up with this:

 

2x TLAC

AV10 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 2.37 damage results

AV11 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 1.78 damage results

AV12 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV13 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 0.59 damage results

AV14 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 0 damage results

TLAC + TLLC

AV10 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 2.07 damage results

AV11 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 1.63 damage results

AV12 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV13 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 0.74 damage results

AV14 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 0.30 damage results

 

Assuming I did my math right (feel free to double check it) the two autocannons are superior on light targets, the same on AV12 and weaker on heavy targets compared to autocannon/lascannon mix. In all cases, the difference is fairly minor and I would call the two loadouts equivalent.

 

You pay more for the TLLC/TLAC version but then again you do get AP2 instead of AP4.

 

Care to add the TLLC + ML to that as well?

[king tiger 101]

Ok, to take the thread almost completely OT and put on my Super-Otaku hat:

 

If we're going to quibble by comparing what the Rifleman's armament is to the dread version, then I'll point out that we should actually be calling this the "Defender" pattern dreadnought:

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i389/jchen101/Defender-1.jpg

as the Defender Destroid from Macross (subsequently morphed by Harmony Gold into Robotech, and then copied by FASA as the basis for the Rifleman) was armed with: 2-barrel Erlikon 78mm automatic cannon Type 966 PFG Contraves set (aka "Contraves II") x 2 (200 rounds ammunition each).

 

Which happens to fit the description of 2 twin-linked autocannons quite nicely. ;

This ^^, riflemen dreads don't exist, only defender dreads

 

Oh and to someone who said DA don't have access to them, they do, and to allot more variants, its called a mortis

[breng77]

On the original topic most of this has been mentioned.

 

Rifleman are as good or slightly better against the most common armor values 10 11 12

 

They are better at killing an infantry wih a 4+ save or worse. Assuming they are not all grouped up.

 

Against marines they are slightly worse if the marines are in the open. But better against marines in cover.

 

It is a cheaper unit.

 

It has a bigger upside. The argument has been made that on average the two options are similar. However a rifleman can penetrate a vehicle 4 times. Lc/ml cannot.

[minigun762]

*Added TLLC/ML combo to table*

 

Lets see, assuming BS4 and no cover saves I come up with this:

 

2x TLAC

AV10 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 2.37 damage results

AV11 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 1.78 damage results

AV12 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV13 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 0.59 damage results

AV14 = 4 shots = 3.56 hits = 0 damage results

TLAC + TLLC

AV10 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 2.07 damage results

AV11 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 1.63 damage results

AV12 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV13 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 0.74 damage results

AV14 = 3 shots = 2.67 hits = 0.30 damage results

TLLC + ML

AV10 = 2 shots = 1.55 hits = 1.44 damage results

AV11 = 2 shots = 1.55 hits = 1.18 damage results

AV12 = 2 shots = 1.55 hits = 0.92 damage results

AV13 = 2 shots = 1.55 hits = 0.66 damage results

AV14 = 2 shots = 1.55 hits = 0.41 damage results

 

TLLC and ML are outperformed by both loadouts across the board. The saving grace of this setup is the ability to hurt AV14 compared to 2x TLAC and ability to insta-kill T4 models or put wounds on most MCs. Really the lack of a TL'd ML hurts this combo.

[Validar]

I'd urge people to remember that you can spread a lot of melta all over the board with your marines (speeders, tacticals, sternguards to name a few) and melta will handle that armor 13-14 like a boss. I think this is what makes the rifleman so rad :)

[Brother Tual]

are we opening this thread upto any variants? Because honestly there are better options for dreads and better variants for the roles defined.

[Paulochromis]

Hey Brother Tual, don't let the title stop you from contributing.

 

I only have a single dread at the moment (two others donated to my son's count as DA army).

I'm looking to repair this deficiency, and with money too tight to mention, was considering cheap bodies (AoBR) and spare Aegis quad-autocannon arms.

If there are superior combos, maybe I need to look at the GW kits instead.

So, any and all insight welcomed.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Brother Tual]

to be honest it depends on what you want from your dread and what else you have in your list. in saying that, most people employ a dread to compensate a weakness, be it mobile weapons or combat.

 

 

my three favourites...

 

 

The first, close range :

assault cannon and heavy flamer. you have the true generalist build able to move with and support your infantry perfectly. a tact squad with a dread as close support is a perfect team. the dread will hold off those stupid dca or incubii just by being in charge range. The obvious downside is range, but as I said, if you want a close support dread, this is your best build.

 

The next, medium range :

assault cannon and ML. What? yes the ML over the autocannon or 'heavy gunner' because this version has ability against all targets. The assault cannon can follow the ML from frag mode to krak mode. You get ability vs clumped infantry, MC's and all armour values.

 

the last, Assault

you cant go past the ironclad with Melta gun, heavy flamer and hunter killer missiles with a drop pod. Damn expensive compared to a riflemen but when you consider the ability of this dread over a riflemen. The bonuses are obvious.. rear armour for one, same number of shots (even the HF has a chance on rear armour) with meltagun giving a huge boost over normal weaponry. If you want to wreck a mech list. Grab this.

 

I dont think a dread is best suited to long range shooting. GK dreads are a little different but for codex marines long range weaponry is not difficult to source at cheaper cost.

 

The TLAC is very underwhelming in all honesty. Str 7 despite the 2 or 4 shots is not going to provide solid results other than against AV10 or 11. Most targets of this AV are transports with a basic cost of not much. Most players using mech dont expect to have a transport live the whole game and normally bank on using multiple hulls to counter the fraility of these card board boxes. Every decent MC has 3+ so the autocannon is a poor choice as anti MC and who cares if you can kill 4 orks on a 2+? Heavy bolters are almost just as good and alot more spamable and cheaper.

 

The TLLC suffers from the same problems as the TLAC. I accept it has a healthy range but in all seriousness you can get 2 lascannons on 5 sternguard for less.

 

I dont rate long range dreads for codex marines.

[appiah4]

TLLC and ML are outperformed by both loadouts across the board. The saving grace of this setup is the ability to hurt AV14 compared to 2x TLAC and ability to insta-kill T4 models or put wounds on most MCs. Really the lack of a TL'd ML hurts this combo.

 

Yeah but like you said the TLLC/ML dreadnought is more versatile than the TLLC/TLAC: It can fire templates to deal with infantry, puts out instant-gib shots against MEQ/TEQ and can reliably wound MCs while damaging AV14 pretty much every other round.

 

That said, the ML on the Dreadnought should probably be upgraded to a Cyclone ML..

[breng77]

The TLAC is very underwhelming in all honesty. Str 7 despite the 2 or 4 shots is not going to provide solid results other than against AV10 or 11. Most targets of this AV are transports with a basic cost of not much. Most players using mech dont expect to have a transport live the whole game and normally bank on using multiple hulls to counter the fraility of these card board boxes. Every decent MC has 3+ so the autocannon is a poor choice as anti MC and who cares if you can kill 4 orks on a 2+? Heavy bolters are almost just as good and alot more spamable and cheaper.

 

The fact that people are running multiple AV 10 and 11 hulls is why the TLAC dread is so good. If I have 3 (or 6) of these guys I can effectively deal with most of my opponents transports (at worst stun lock them). I'm actually just the opposite of you I don't really rate CC dreads for Codex marines (or close range dreads for that matter) dreads survive well at long range because it is hard for people to hurt AV 12 especially if you get cover, at close range it is very easy to melta dreads to death. Further more if they are foot slogging they are easier to ignore because of the lack of range they posses. You mention the Iron Clad getting rear armor. What opponent is going to let you drop in behind them (often on turn 1)? And as you mentioned, so you get rear armor on a vehicle (usually a transport) and pop it...then the dread dies and you just paid a boatload of points to kill a 35 -90 point vehicle...

[DarkGuard]

Brother Taul, I'm going to have to disagree with you and say Dreads aren't that suited for frontline combat. 2 attacks at WS4 does not inspire confidence in assault, and chances are a Dread on the frontline with a DCCW will get in assault, and therefore stay there for some time. And then of course there is the melta problem. This edition is full of mech forces, which mean armies stock up on meltas and melta equivalents. These tend to be short ranged though, so a long-ranged Dread can stay clear of them, whereas a close ranged or even midfield Dread will be susceptible. As breng77 said, it's harder for enemies to deal with Dreads at range due to AV12.

 

As breng77 said many people run AV10 and 11 hulls. Reason being many people run Marine armies, that revolve around those hulls. Against Dark Eldar and Orks they're still good against their transports, and are very handy against Dark Eldar for stripping away FnP. Of course, as you've said they're less impressive against AV12, but that's more of a metagame issue. If you're metagame has a lot of AV12+ vehicles, then Rifleman aren't going to be much use at all, missile launchers will be more the order of the day.

 

I'm not going to say that your Dread configs you posted are bad, because they're not. I just don't think they are superior to the Rifleman, which has some brilliant points efficiency built in, although against the right targets. I'd much rather take a Rifleman than them as I'm likely to face lots of Marine armies. Your builds, IMO, are some of the best builds you can make with Dreads out of the box. Autocannons can be hard to get hold of and/or convert, and this does put some people off. Your builds all use the Dread's weapons it comes with, and so for those unwilling to hunt down autocannons they are solid builds, along with the ML/TL-LC Dread, which does have an advantage over the ML/AC because of its range.

[Brother Tual]

There are three target types in 40k - Infantry, MC and tanks.

 

 

The autocannon is the heavy bolter of AT heavy weapons. For the same range bracket we have a Lascannon, Missile launcher and Autocannon. The Autocannon is limited more than the other two weapons. The riflemen is an internet dread.

 

Iron Clad getting rear armor

Short range tanks are often deployed far forward. I will DS behind them. Other tanks mostly have weaker side armour. You can always get this. Dropping the AV by 1 or 2 is a significant increase in your odds of getting to the damage table and now that Russ's come in squadrons... You do know I dont have to use a dread to kill a rhino.. I have other units that do this better for less cost but if I go for a rhino (more likely a LR) I will target the unit with the MM specifically. People are less likely to run or allocate extra resources to this attack despite the low chance of killing this threat. Happy days for my dread. Even if the dread dies, its one turn of 5 that the unit hasnt moved towards an objective. Its in a rhino for a reason and that reason is not to sit still.

 

The fact that people are running multiple AV 10 and 11 hulls is why the TLAC dread is so good

 

As far as anti AV10 or 11, a rhino has never been an issue for me to kill. I suppose if you find them hard to kill, then a riflemen might do you well. As far as I am concerned the autocannon is a limited weapon unable to extend to anything beyond AV11. If you need these self imposed restrictions to force your target priority then I dont think a riflemen or two will help you.

 

 

 

I'd much rather take a Rifleman than them as I'm likely to face lots of Marine armies.

 

Considering a MEQ opponent, they are unlikely to have more than 3 rhinos or razors because no one spams tactical marines. Auxilary to these tanks will be predators, landraiders and dreads. Some people use speeders but not all. Once 3 rhinoes have died your riflemen is useless. Why? 3+ saves. Unless you have other weapons to force troops into cover your opponent has no reason to hug cover. Cover is beautiful because it slows movement. Why limit yourself to only rhinoes as targets? You do realise you are saying an autocannon is a good MEQ killer. It is neither AP3 or str8 so it restricts marine protection (Armour saves or FNP) by no measure at all. I would rather take a plasma cannon or assault cannon vs MEQ. seriously.

 

 

 

 

dreads survive well at long range because it is hard for people to hurt AV 12 especially if you get cover, at close range it is very easy to melta dreads to death.

 

MEQ have a hell of alot of access to longrange AT. Missiles in every unit, lascannons on every tank etc... Why do I need to sourch low end AT from my dreads? A dread is hardly more survivable from a missle at range than a MM at close range. The difference is risk for my opponent. If that MM fails. Hulk smash. Against most xenos ask them what they fear most.. a riflemen lurking in ruins or a dread infront of their lines. Ask a MEQ player the same question, you will get the same response. You will see alot more movement (or panic) in response everytime. Have you ever considered that if your riflemen are living longer than dreads it might be because your opponent has focused more on the dreads because they are stronger?

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you and say Dreads aren't that suited for frontline combat

Its a funny claim, dreads arent for front line combat... A dread with an assault cannon and heavy flamer following up with assault is a punishment. Nothing else can do that. The low number of attacks of a dread is weak. I agree. The value in a dread in combat comes from str10 and AV12. Most units have a single upgrade character. Most players dont upgrade this character. Even if they do, they are no better off than a dread in combat except they can break and run. Most players hide IC's in units. Very rarely do you see IC's outside of units. This is where a dread shines. You can get into combat and you can target that IC. You only need one wound to land and you score the kill. What happens after that is of little concern. At worst the unit kills your dread without the support of the IC for future combats saving your tactical marines from your enemy, at best you punch through that unit one body at a time holding it up for the entire game. Sorry if you only have 2 scoring units because this one isnt going anywhere. Fist or not.

[minigun762]

If you're metagame has a lot of AV12+ vehicles, then Rifleman aren't going to be much use at all, missile launchers will be more the order of the day.

 

Just to be clear, autocannons still beat missile launchers when you're targetting AV12.

 

1 ML @ BS4 = 0.667 hits @ S8 = 0.334 damage results (0.22 pens + 0.11 glance)

 

2 AC @ BS4 = 1.334 hits @ S7 = 0.444 damage results (0.22 pens + 0.22 glance)

 

The missile launchers advantages over the autocannon are its two fire modes, S8 for instant kills and AP3 for killing MEQ + MCs but point for point the autocannon is better for killing light-medium armor.

 

That said, I can agree with the arguement that codex marines don't really need to use rifleman because typhoons, razorbacks, predators and heavy weapons in tac squads all cover the long range firepower niche pretty well.