Lascannon/Missile Launcher Dread vs Rifleman Dread

[breng77]

Brother tual you do know that Meq is more than just nilla marines. Plenty of BA, sw, and gk players run 5 or more razorbacks. I'll agree that the drop pod dread is a bigger threat when it comes in. For that one turn. But a dead dread is a much lower threat than a live one. Also for cc dreads the problem is that they are negated when their cc arm is destroyed or if they are immobilized. There is nothing wrong with them but the rifleman is also good.

[Captain Idaho]

He does make a good argument though!

 

I must say, my Dreadnoughts armed for close assault actions die a lot quicker, which to me tells me they are a threat to opponents.

 

Riflemen Dreads... Not sure what to make of them. S7 doesn't work very well for me, even for my Necrons and their Barges (which get more shots). However, I have seen a friend of mine use two to decimate Eldar by stun locking or what have you.

 

Still, I enjoy fiercer firepower so don't care for a weapon systems designed to be so inconclusive. Give me something which is more decisive!

[DarkGuard]

No, no, can't agree with you Brother Taul, sorry. And just so you know, my current Marine army isn't using a Rifleman Dread, and hasn't for some time, preferring Typhoons and quad-ML Devs. But I'm still going to defend the Rifleman Dread, because I feel you're being a bit harsh on it.

 

The autocannon is the heavy bolter of AT heavy weapons. For the same range bracket we have a Lascannon, Missile launcher and Autocannon. The Autocannon is limited more than the other two weapons. The riflemen is an internet dread.

 

It also has more shots than both, and is cheaper than the lascannon. Limited is one word I'd use. Focussed is another. Focussed on light tanks, which are run a lot. And internet Dread? Not really. Lots of people mention it on the internet, so what? The important thing or the results it produces for people in their games. I've found it works well against it's intended targets.

 

As far as anti AV10 or 11, a rhino has never been an issue for me to kill. I suppose if you find them hard to kill, then a riflemen might do you well. As far as I am concerned the autocannon is a limited weapon unable to extend to anything beyond AV11. If you need these self imposed restrictions to force your target priority then I dont think a riflemen or two will help you.

 

Self-imposed restrictions? Taking a Rifleman doesn't make you a bad player because you prefer your units to be focussed. I prefer my units to be versatile personally, but there was a time I focussed them and it's just as viable and hard to master as versatile. You need to apply each unit properly, and if you don't do so well enough then you get reduced returns. Personally I think playing with those restrictions helps with target priority and application of correct force. Nothing wrong with those restrictions, provided your play style and list compensates for them.

 

Considering a MEQ opponent, they are unlikely to have more than 3 rhinos or razors because no one spams tactical marines. Auxilary to these tanks will be predators, landraiders and dreads. Some people use speeders but not all. Once 3 rhinoes have died your riflemen is useless. Why? 3+ saves. Unless you have other weapons to force troops into cover your opponent has no reason to hug cover. Cover is beautiful because it slows movement. Why limit yourself to only rhinoes as targets? You do realise you are saying an autocannon is a good MEQ killer. It is neither AP3 or str8 so it restricts marine protection (Armour saves or FNP) by no measure at all. I would rather take a plasma cannon or assault cannon vs MEQ. seriously.

 

OK, I'm confused, when did I say an autocannon was a good Marine killer? I didn't, I'd ask you not to put words in my mouth thank you very much. My entire post related to transports. You think I don't know the autocannon isn't good against Preds, Land Raider, Dreads etc? I have missile launchers and melta for them. And I know they aren't great against Marines, as in the 3+ save guys. I have plasma gun squad, Sternguard, Honour Guard for them. The autocannon is good against Marine armies in that it knocks out their transports. Some people do spam Marines, some spam Land Speeders, and side armour shots on Vindicators are possible. And even if it's 3 transports I want to know they're dead in or near my opponent's deployment zone with reliability. I agree though, plasma weaponry is preferable against power armour. Assault cannon isn't. You're riding on luck there, I'd still prefer the autocannon there as the range and extra strength helps get units out of their transports so that the plasma cannons can actually be used.

 

MEQ have a hell of alot of access to longrange AT. Missiles in every unit, lascannons on every tank etc... Why do I need to sourch low end AT from my dreads? A dread is hardly more survivable from a missle at range than a MM at close range. The difference is risk for my opponent. If that MM fails. Hulk smash. Against most xenos ask them what they fear most.. a riflemen lurking in ruins or a dread infront of their lines. Ask a MEQ player the same question, you will get the same response. You will see alot more movement (or panic) in response everytime. Have you ever considered that if your riflemen are living longer than dreads it might be because your opponent has focused more on the dreads because they are stronger?

 

True, missiles in 200+pt units that normally want to go forward, lascannons on 75pt AV11 chassis or 100+pt Preds. Low end AT? Yes, it is. But low end anti-transport? Not really, it's quite top end afterall. And when I last played an opponent with Dreads I was quite happy to see everyone of them was footslogging with short ranged weapons. Meant they couldn't touch my transports for most the game, made them easier to avoid and I could deal with them at my leisure, they did nothing in the end. Rifleman Dreads though would have posed a bigger problem by getting my men out of their transports. And AV12 holds up as well to a S8 shot than a S8 AP1, 2D6 armour pen shot? I don't agree with it. Perhaps the reason why Rifleman live longer isn't because closer Dreads are stronger, but because closer Dreads are just easier to kill.

 

 

Its a funny claim, dreads arent for front line combat... A dread with an assault cannon and heavy flamer following up with assault is a punishment. Nothing else can do that. The low number of attacks of a dread is weak. I agree. The value in a dread in combat comes from str10 and AV12. Most units have a single upgrade character. Most players dont upgrade this character. Even if they do, they are no better off than a dread in combat except they can break and run. Most players hide IC's in units. Very rarely do you see IC's outside of units. This is where a dread shines. You can get into combat and you can target that IC. You only need one wound to land and you score the kill. What happens after that is of little concern. At worst the unit kills your dread without the support of the IC for future combats saving your tactical marines from your enemy, at best you punch through that unit one body at a time holding it up for the entire game. Sorry if you only have 2 scoring units because this one isnt going anywhere. Fist or not.

 

And once you hit the IC and wound they also will normally have an invulnerable save. I've had a Dread sitting in combat trying to kill a Chaplain and failing for four wounds of combat because of limited attacks and admittedly poor rolls. S10 is good, AV12 in combat is good, don't get me wrong. And an assault cannon and heavy flamer Dread is good for whittling down numbers before assault. But Dreads tarpit and get tarpitted in assault. Normally they're in combat for ages and don't do much damage. Or at least that's my experience. And the problem is getting them there. Footslogging Dreads need to get there first, and I find they often get left behind by a Rhino advance, or punished by my opponent's long-range anti-tank. And while I agree the assault cannon and heavy flamer is good for clearing away some units, it isn't great against all. It may well put a lot of wounds on Marines, but most of those wounds will allow saves, so it does have diminishing returns vs Marines.

 

Again, I'm not saying any of your Dread builds are bad. What I am saying is I think you're too overly critical of the Rifleman. It may be a bit of an internet fad, but for good reason. It being limited is of course bad. It being bad in assault is also bad. But it's cheapness, range and reliability are all very good points in its favour. It's commonly used because it does a good job against a target that people see a lot on the board, and even if there are only three Rhinos on my opponent's side, the Rifleman is a pro at knocking them out before they can deliver their cargo to where they want to be. Due to its focussed role though you cannot take it in a vacuum. Your army has to be able to cover its weaknesses. Missile launchers and lascannons are good additions to help with the bigger transports, as are melta weapons. Plasma on other units will also be good in helping you take apart the occupants. In an army where it fits in, the Rifleman is a very good addition.

[Brother Tual]

Good post DG,

 

I didnt think I was being harsh, just accurate. A riflemen has a place in 'some' lists. I think you can sourch the same results, if not better, elsewhere in the codex for a reduced cost. I think you can do soo much more with a dread than to stick two 'average' weapons on it.

 

I see the value in a riflemen. 48" range being the only kicker but it comes at the cost of not being a 'dread' and more of a gun platform at worst or a tank at best. The reason why I dont rate them in general is not because they are poor themselves, I dont rate them for what you get compared to what you could have.

 

Breng, I know you know razor spam is an idea, csm can do it too. GK have the stronger build out of all MEQ but it is hardly the most difficult list type to face. Small units in weak armour has its obvious flaws. I dare say you would be better off with predators (las + Auto) over the riflemen in any arena if you were this way inclined. The only issue may be if you have maxed out your HS slots. I much prefer to get my elites up close and personal.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks Brother Taul, yours was also a good post, was incredibly hard to debate against. ;)

 

I think here it's six of one, half a dozen of the other (I believe that's an appropriate phrase here). I do agree with you that I prefer the look of normal Dreads, not Rifleman. I feel Dreads should ideally be close up, showering the enemy with a hail of bullets and fire while crushing them in CC. But the Dread that always performed the best for me was a Rifleman. Of course, I felt that fielding two was a bit silly from a fluff perspective, and so now I only field one at most, and that's only if I need it after my Typhoons and Devs etc.

 

I think part me fielding it as a Rifleman is because I didn't want to Pod Dreads in, and I didn't want to run them alongside Rhinos, I wanted them active at the beginning of the game. So for me the cheapest way to do this was the Rifleman, and it worked out well. Now it's not working out as well, and that's fine. I may use it again, I may not, but at the moment I'm enjoying my missile launchers. :P

[breng77]

Breng, I know you know razor spam is an idea, csm can do it too. GK have the stronger build out of all MEQ but it is hardly the most difficult list type to face. Small units in weak armour has its obvious flaws. I dare say you would be better off with predators (las + Auto) over the riflemen in any arena if you were this way inclined. The only issue may be if you have maxed out your HS slots. I much prefer to get my elites up close and personal.

 

I disagree on the Auto-las preds. They have a harder time getting all 3 guns to get line of site, They are not twin-linked, cannot move and fire all 3 guns only 1, have worse side armor, cannot assault(not that the dread is good in the assault but tying things up serves a purpose), and are more expensive. Auto las running 5 to 10 points more I believe. Assuming that the Pred does not move, it is only slightly better against armor than the Rifleman.

 

NOw if your particular build does not fit them that is fine, but that hardly makes them bad. Razor Spam is not horrible to face in many armies, but the GK version is quite strong these days (Cotaez + henchmen + Rifleman w/ psybolts.)

[DarkGuard]

Actually breng combi-preds run at 5pts less than Rifleman Dreads, but I agree with all you say, Rifleman have some distinctive advantages over them, twin-linked shots, ability to move and fire at full effect and being able to tie up units in combat being the biggest.

 

But combi-preds have better points as well. Placement means at most times only front armour will be shown, which is bigger than a preds, higher strength shots, more weapon systems to take more weapon destroyed results, and can't be tied up. Also faster movement speed if needed to redeploy.

[minigun762]

Its odd to me that people point to the autocannon and say its a jack of all trades weapon. I don't think thats the case, especially not when compared against a missile launcher. The autocannon is a niche weapon, busting AV10-12 and in previous editions that niche wasn't nearly as important as it is now. I know people curse math-hammer up and down but it does give you the hard numbers about the likelyhood of a particular event and the numbers support rifleman dreads being awesome.

 

That said, dreads are flexible enough that they serve as a great way to fill in gaps in your army. The best dread configuration is the one that best fills your needs on the battlefield and because codex marines have a wide variety of long range anti-tank weapons, the rifleman isn't as valuable as it would be in another army, such as Chaos (assuming it was sane...).

[Brother Tual]

breng, sorry, i was talking about a riflemen stationary in cover and a pred stationary in cover. you can always swivel in the shooting phase and line up your target so you get max firepower.

 

if you compare mobile riflemen to a pred, then yes. the dread is better. however a mobile dread is not likely to be in cover so you might as well be up close and increase the threat to your opponent and use a different dread.