Combi Weapons

[Black Mage 257]

I've noticed recently a massive spike in the use of combi-weapons in tactical squads, I've noticed a few army list comments mentioning removing power weapons or other add-ons and changing them for a Combi-melta or Plasma for example.

 

There's nothing wrong with that I can see the potential benefit of carrying such a weapon but personally I'm more likely to stick to Power Weapons and Fists, that is unless I can have my mind changed on the idea of combi-weapons in tactical squads.

 

I personally play with quite a few tactical squads and usually rely on Sternguard in a drop pod in most lists as they are possibly one of my favourite units in 40k, adding combi-weapons (usually 3-4 at least) especially at such short range arrival makes them quite effective at tank popping as well as being able to rely on the various ammo types, this lets them fufill a number of useful roles on the battlefield, but for tacticals I just don''t see it. It's a very different set up and use, I can only add one combi and I can only have one assault weapon, I feel even if they were to arrive in the same manner a combi weapon probably isn't that useful an addition, as I don't like the idea of wasting the entirety of a squads shooting on 1-2 weapons unless no other option is available to me and at such close range and being unable to assault means that I'm more than likely going to take advantage of rapid firing. Tank popping in my lists is generally left to my other units unless I'm in a dire situation.

 

Also removing the power weapons/fists for combi-weapons just strikes me as weird, I generally don't take tacticals without a Power Weapon/Fist because I feel they need the extra punch (I tend to shoot first and ask questions later and then do combat after that) but that's neither here nor there.

 

So I was just wondering if I could get some opinions/thoughts from people who do use them and how effective they are, I just need some convincing before I try it out.

 

Thanks

BM257

[Lachdannan]

I don't use many, but on one of my tactical squads, I have a sgt with power fist, combi-melta, another marine with a melta gun, and then a multimelta. I reasoning for it I suppose, is that it gives me an extra shot at approaching armour. The amount of 1's I roll for melta weapons shouldn't be possible, so I need all the help I can get.

 

Like you, I always give my sgt's either a power weapon or a power fist, just makes sense to me, and looks cool to boot.

[King Willy]

I think the idea is it's more points effecient, Tacs a generally meh in close combat so save the points on a ccw and chuck in an extra special weapon shot since most people seem to only get a single round of shooting, no one really uses them to shoot 24 inch.

[Black Mage 257]

Apologies for posting in the wrong place. <_<

[ShinyRhino]

For me it's about Tac Sergeants being largely gimp in melee. A power weapon is almost useless for a Tac Sergeant. Against an Marine opponent, half your swings will miss, and half again will fail to wound. It's not any sort of deterrent to enemy units.

A powerfist is slightly better, since it wounds reliably and can be used against AV targets. But it's expensive, and you may never end up swinging it.

 

Tac Squads are shooty units, and shooty units deserve shooty upgrades. The way the WS/BS tables work, Marines are actually better in the Shooting phase because it's always 3+ to hit, whereas in melee it can be anything from 3+ to 5+.

 

Folks like combiweapons because they provide a level of redundancy to the squad's special weapon, which typically only fires once or twice per game. Nothing feels worse than lining up that perfect shot with a meltagun...and whiffing. The ride-along combimelta doubles the chances you'll knock down what needs knocking down.

Plasma is more about the extra wounds. A TDA squad landing in front of your unit is scary, and you're unlikely to kill enough of them to save yourself with just one plasmagun. The combi doubles your output fo that phase, and a 5-man TDA squad suddenly can become a 1-man TDA squad. That rampaging Trygon can take a max of 2 of its 6 wounds from just a plasmagun, but you can eat 4/6 by using the combi alongside. The last two wounds can be threatened by bolter shells. You have no idea how many times I've taken down Daemon Princes with a volley of plasma and bolter shells.

 

I personally find the combiflamer a little lacking, but that's largely because of the weak profile of the weapon, and the limited range of a template. You really have to be moving forward with a Tac Squad if you plan to apply flamers, and that's not typically how I work my Tacs against things that are vulnerable to templates (Orks, Nid gribblies, etc).

[Guest Bucelufe]

Also if you don't take 10 man tactical squads using combi weapons is the only way of getting a special weapon into the combat squad (albeit a 1 shot wonder)

[Bannus]

Apologies for posting in the wrong place. ;)

No apology necessary. I moved it here because I believe you will get a better response here.

 

I personally find the combiflamer a little lacking, but that's largely because of the weak profile of the weapon, and the limited range of a template. You really have to be moving forward with a Tac Squad if you plan to apply flamers, and that's not typically how I work my Tacs against things that are vulnerable to templates (Orks, Nid gribblies, etc).

Odd, I like the combi-flamer because I hate the idea of spending points on a weapon - then have it miss the target. Flamers don't miss. But then again, my most challenging opponent is my own dice. :D

[Ming]

Since power fisted-sergeants cannot get an extra attack, I like them with combiflamers. Easy enough to just "mag-lock" an old flamer pistol to a sergeant for the wyswig situations...overall if and when my tac squad gets into assault, it is because I'm doing the charging. That combi- flamer plus the squads other special weapon (meltagun or flamer) and bolt pistols means I can get some wounds in before the charge. I can see where a combi-melta would be more useful if your opponents are packed in metal boxes or trukks - allowing a tac squad 2 melta shots to pop the transport before charging the former occupants...so yeah, combi-weapons can be very useful. But it can be easy to go overboard with them, and again they are just one-shot.

[DarkGuard]

As others have said Tactical squads aren't great in CC. They're decent at shooting though, and this is made possible largely to their weapons upgrades. Many complain about having to take a special and heavy then pass up on combis and say Tacticals suck. They don't. As has been said the special is on average normal shot once or twice a game, the combi makes them more deadly for that one turn, really adding to their killing power. And it's cheaper than any of the melee upgrades.

 

IMO, good Tactical squads are focused in shooting by taking a special weapon with a matching combi, and then add their versatility by heavy weapons. Think of it that way, if you have 3 squads with power fists, they're subpar in combat. Even with the fist. Take combis instead, and they're good at shooting, more or less the same in CC, and you've saved 45pts, which is quite a few points.

[Oppressor]

Some math versus meq for CC armed Sgt.

 

Sgt with PF charging: 3 attacks, 4+ to hit and a 2+ to wound.

3 x .5 x .833333 = 1.249999999999 wounds.

 

Sgt with PW charging: 4 attacks, 4+ to hit and a 4+ to wound.

4 x .5 x .5 = 1 wounds.

 

Sgt with Chainsword charging: 4 attacks, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound and 1/3 to not save.

4 x .5 x .5 x .33333333 = .33333333 wounds.

 

 

Sgt with PF being charged: 2 x .5 x .833333 = .83333333 wounds.

 

Sgt with PW being charged: 3 x .5 x .5 = .75 wounds.

 

Sgt with Chainsword being charged: 3 x .5 x .5 x .333333 = .25 wounds.

 

 

 

Some math versus meq for Combi-weapon armed Sgt.

 

Sgt with combi-melta hits on 3+, wounds on 2+ for .555555555 wounds.

 

Sgt with combi-plasma (24") hits on 3+, wounds on 2+ for .55555555 wounds.

Sgt with combi-plasma (12") 2 hits on 3+, 2 wounds on 2+ for 1.11111111 wounds.

 

Sgt with combi-flamer autohits, half of those fail to wound, .3333333 of those fail their saves.

 

 

 

My guess it that people like the combi weapons because they hit vehicles that moved on a 3+ and are only 10 points. Otherwise, they don't really outperform powerweapons or powerfists. I think that people are too scared to assault with marines to begin with nowadays, and that also leads to the desire to shoot over assault. I will not say that basic marines are assault specialists extrodinaire, but they are far from slouches in CC, they are after all, the standard or benchmark in the game.

[Black Mage 257]

I personally find the combiflamer a little lacking, but that's largely because of the weak profile of the weapon, and the limited range of a template. You really have to be moving forward with a Tac Squad if you plan to apply flamers, and that's not typically how I work my Tacs against things that are vulnerable to templates (Orks, Nid gribblies, etc).

Odd, I like the combi-flamer because I hate the idea of spending points on a weapon - then have it miss the target. Flamers don't miss. But then again, my most challenging opponent is my own dice. ;)

 

This is exactly why I rarely or never buy combi-weapons :P

 

I've used Kombi-Flamers for Orks due to the obvious BS issue with Orks and the fact that I don't need to roll :P

 

I'd like to point out, I'm not a maths hammer kinda guy, I don't look at the game in that mind set (although I understand the benefit of doing so), but I can see your valid point in the numbers there Oppressor and I agree people are more afraid to assault with basic marines these days but at the end of the day they are more than capable of handling themselves and adding a Power weapon/fist can only add to the fun.

 

Although DarkGuard and ShinyRhino have raised some valid points on adding to your assault weapon and that makes a lot of sense to me, I tend to look at one-shot weapons with a bit of disdain due to my natural luck (or lack thereof) but I think I will give them a try, even in just one or two squads to see the result.

 

One of my main reasons for asking this was to expand on something in the marine books I've just never touched on in all my years playing marines, the sudden spike in popularity made me interested and after all variety is the spice of life.

 

Anyhoo I'll turn on the old Auspex once I get a game in with my marines tomorrow night I'll post my findings to you guys on this matter asap. :P

[Oppressor]

Statiscally, for the same points as a powerfist, a combi-weapon (melta or plasma) and power weapon seems like a very good combination.

[DarkGuard]

Mathhammer isn't everything, it doesn't take into account luck of the individual. I'll tell you my Mathhammer for a Tactical squad. Most likely been charged, so 2A. One misses, that's standard. Then I roll 1. Nearly every single time. 25pts, and it sits there and flails at nothing for ages. You can't tell me its bad tactics because it's a combat weapon in assault.

 

So for the 50pts I was spending I was maybe killing 1 or 2 Marines extra over time. Not worth it. I went for combi-flamers (at the time), and then it was worth it. I was getting more hits, and it was letting my squad be more damaging in their turn. And for those who haven't tried it, Vulkan makes combi-flamer/flamer/MM squads hit hard, I've taken out whole units of Marines of that config. Oh, and 30pts saved for more things, always good.

 

With combi-weapons, they're good in any list build. IMO combat weapons are only really worth it in Chapter Tactic builds, particularly Stubborn builds. You can't choose to fail away or out of assault, and in the latter case it's unlikely you'll ever run, so having a combat weapon is near needed to make sure you actually hurt the enemy for shooting for.

 

The thing, most people don't use Tactical squads that offensively unless they're shooting. The power weapon or fist is nearly always there for insurance. And for it's price and what it does and protects against, it's not worth it. Combi-weapons makes the Tactical squad better in the phase that they will more likely be attacking in, shooting. So IMO combis are more essential than combat weapons, which are points fillers (and therefore don't make it in my lists due to WYSIWYG).

[Mysticaria]

Statiscally, for the same points as a powerfist, a combi-weapon (melta or plasma) and power weapon seems like a very good combination.

Except a combiweapon with a power weapon actually makes the power-weapon worse. Not something I usually like to do.

 

Let's look at it this way:

You pay 170 points minimum for a squad that has bolters, 1 heavy weapon, and 1 special weapon. In combat, the addition of a power weapon or powerfist is likely to not make very much difference. Possibly 25% boost to the squads output? However, if you take a combi-weapon you DOUBLE the number of special weapons that the squad can fire in that phase for 100% boost in special weapon shooting.

 

OR... look at it this way:

In situations where the tactical squad is winning... against light infantry maybe... neither combi-weapons nor power weapons makes much of a difference

In situations where the tactical squad is losing... against TEQ, tanks, heavy infantry... the combiweapon makes MORE of a difference than a power weapon/fist

 

Finally...

You get to decide how to use your squad when you build the army. If you put a flamer and combi-flamer into a squad with a missile launcher and a rhino... in an army with a librarian with avenger, you've now got a squad with three flame templates that can ride forward in a rhino. If you put a plasmagun and combiplasma in a squad with a multimelta in a rhino, you've got a really scary midfield squad that actually can put out some decent shooting that can reliably go after MCs, Rhinos, TEQ, and other targets that tactical squads don't normally go after. Powerweapon and Powerfist do not add capability to go after these types of units...

 

-Myst

[Muctar]

With combi-weapons, they're good in any list build. IMO combat weapons are only really worth it in Chapter Tactic builds, particularly Stubborn builds. You can't choose to fail away or out of assault, and in the latter case it's unlikely you'll ever run, so having a combat weapon is near needed to make sure you actually hurt the enemy for shooting for.

Well said. From my experience you want to have tacticals rapid firing as much as possible along with the addition of your special weapon. With a combi added to that you're making the squad even more effective at doing what it is good at doing. In my experience with Vulkan lists this is doubly true, since the combis you'll take are affected by the Chapter Tactics. I also agree that a power fist is a useful addition in Chapter Tactics armies because it does add a lot to the squad since you can't get out of assault. Both the PF and combis are great when rapid firing and possibly getting assaulted by the remnants of what you shot at, and remain great with those extra shooting and CC attacks when you need to charge.

 

Overall I say either leave the sergeant naked upgrade-wise if you need to save points or take the PF and combi to match the squad's special.

[Oppressor]

The reason I said that statiscally I can see that for the cost of a powerfist, a combi-weapon (melta or plasma) and a power weapon seem like a very good combination is because it leads to being better at shooting alone in those shooting phases you want or need that extra combi-weapons fire, and better assaulting at all times with the power weapon. With combat tactics, this suggestion is sound as you can always try to leave combat against things a power weapon will not help against and fire the combi-weapon (and any other weapons) at those things (if you didn't get the chance to to begin with) and you get better wounds in close combat either way with a power weapon. In other words, you would still be avoidin close combat with things you cannot hurt in close combat anyway, but you can now do more damage against things you can hurt in close combat as well as shooting thanks to both the power weapon and the combi-melta or plasma. I would therefore suggest a combi-melta or plasma and a powersword over a powerfist or other combination as it is both statiscally and tactically sound.

 

In the absence of combat tactics, I would suggest a powerfist, as you need a weapon that can threaten as much as possible in close combat you can no longer leave nearly at will.

[Black Mage 257]

Sounds sad to say but I'm delighted with how well this topic has taken off :P

 

I think personally for me it's just I've always relied on PW/Pf's in squads, it seemed unnatural to take them and against some opponents I hate losing the edge a PW/PF can bring to the table. Although with the mention of combat tactics I now agree with the use of combi-weapons, I never really thought to use them in that way (I generally don't retreat much, (heroic last stand kinda guy ;))

 

I've personally never used Vulkan, although I've seen on various tables just how effective he can be, I simply don't use special characters that often and if I do it's generally ones that tie in with my chapter. (I play Angels of Absolution (Dark Angels Successor)) but I use the vanilla codex more often as I hate not having sternguard, so I only use my DA codex for events which I can bring their characters to bear (Belial etc).

 

I'm going to move the topic askew a slight bit though and ask about how to set up a tactical squad with combi's, as far as I can see the more popular builds are to take the same combi-weapon as the special weapon in the team. For example:

 

7 Tactical Marines w/Bolters

1 Tactical Marine w/Melta

1 Tactical Marine w/Multi-Melta

1 Tactical Sergeant w/Combi-Melta

 

I don't have my book to hand (I'm at work..... bad I know :P) but I think this would be around the 180-200 range in points, also I'd probably add a rhino on top of this for obvious mobility purposes. I was just wondering if anyone had tried any different set ups besides matching weapons and if they found them to be effective?

[Brother Tual]

Interesting.

 

The reason why PF love has dropped is because everyone else got better in assault. Even guard have some neat little tricks...

 

Example - 10 tactical marines with fist V 10 PAGK (daemon hunters) in combat yielded roughly the same kill rate. Not so any more. Your old BA and SW were only slightly better but now with mass furious charge + FNP gimmicks and mixed in mini characters these two armies fear not the humble PF 10 man tactical squad and it has died as a result.

 

Marines have very limited combat ability in the current versions. I would say they have only one combat unit without named IC's adding to the base stateline. TH terminators and even these are questionable. Outside of terminators only Ironclads really resemble a combat unit. marines still can do combat, but you are going to be looking at your champions to provide these results. Not your Vet sergeant anymore. Heck, even scouts out shine tactical marines in combat!

 

Marine combat ability comes from IC's - Marneus and Lysander being the kings closely followed by Shrike and The Khan. Supporting these guys in combat can only be achieved by a select few. Mostly your terminators with assault marines coming a close second in the case of shrike. HG can support your combat monsters but are hard to get on the table unless you run Marneus or a generic chapter master with RB and SS. I havent forgotten about Vulcan or your generic RB/SS captain but these are not as good as the two top dogs ruling this current dex. Your budget combat guys will be either a libby with might or Cassius.

 

4th ed had honour guard being smuggled into units as unit upgrades. This worked well and provided a nice back up making basic marines viable in combat. Things like Vet sergeant with PF/PW supported by HG and IC with PW amounted to a decent amount of kills per turn. It outshone some other assault based armies such as BT and SW. These armies are now too good at killing MEQ. Since 5th ed most internet lists have been phasing out the tactical squad and the PF upgrade that goes with them in favour for more AV and big guns. Less bodies and more hulls.

 

***************************************

Basic unit if you are not worried about kill points

10 marines - CombiFlamer + Flamer + ML in HB razor.

+ combat IC in low points because you wont have TH/SS in LR etc. (Ie you wont have a dedicated combat unit)

 

Otherwise switch razor for rhino.

[Oppressor]

Sounds sad to say but I'm delighted with how well this topic has taken off ^_^

 

I think personally for me it's just I've always relied on PW/Pf's in squads, it seemed unnatural to take them and against some opponents I hate losing the edge a PW/PF can bring to the table. Although with the mention of combat tactics I now agree with the use of combi-weapons, I never really thought to use them in that way (I generally don't retreat much, (heroic last stand kinda guy ;))

 

I've personally never used Vulkan, although I've seen on various tables just how effective he can be, I simply don't use special characters that often and if I do it's generally ones that tie in with my chapter. (I play Angels of Absolution (Dark Angels Successor)) but I use the vanilla codex more often as I hate not having sternguard, so I only use my DA codex for events which I can bring their characters to bear (Belial etc).

 

I'm going to move the topic askew a slight bit though and ask about how to set up a tactical squad with combi's, as far as I can see the more popular builds are to take the same combi-weapon as the special weapon in the team. For example:

 

7 Tactical Marines w/Bolters

1 Tactical Marine w/Melta

1 Tactical Marine w/Multi-Melta

1 Tactical Sergeant w/Combi-Melta

 

I don't have my book to hand (I'm at work..... bad I know :P) but I think this would be around the 180-200 range in points, also I'd probably add a rhino on top of this for obvious mobility purposes. I was just wondering if anyone had tried any different set ups besides matching weapons and if they found them to be effective?

 

 

If you are going to be using Vulkan, I would not recomend a combi-weapon on your sgts. You should take a powerfist on them as you do not have combat tactics to leave close combat. If you simply must take a combi-weapon, take one in addition to a powerfist.

 

 

As far as squad loadouts, plasma gun and multimelta is a popular choice as the weapon ranges match each other and bolters. They rush up to midfield in a rhino and create 24" no go zones.

[Brother Tual]

create 24" no go zones.

Seriously? where does this idea come from? Is anyone seriously going to say, "Oh my. A tact squad with a MM and plasma gun in a rhino... thats it... I cant go within 24" of that." Even if you had 3 x 10 man unit in rhino with melta + combi melta and MM I would still drive my damn LR at you (with smoke) because I know when your transports pop I will get 30 kills and all of your troops in one go. Odds are you wont pop a LR even with 3 MM and even if you do it wont stop my assault on you.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah the 'area denial/metla bunkers' has been discussed to death.. personally i think the idea is poorly thought out and suicidally implemented..

 

yeah heres a 250 point tac squad in a rhino, im gunna sit here and try and shoot vehciles with my one multi-melta..

Qs:

how long does the average rhino last in game?

how much threat does a single MM carry?

why spend 250+ points on a job that a 50pt MM attack bike does better

 

tactical squads should be support units, forget the special ccws IMO

[evilturkeyofdoom]

I used to shy away from one use weapons. I still don’t use HK missiles but I do use combi weapons.

 

I’m always interested in reducing my chances of failure. I want a unit to do what I want it to do

 

Most people appear to Mathhammer out the average result of killing something E.g. Two meltaguns should kill 1.1 marines out in the open. I prefer to work out what the chance of failure is that my unit won’t do what I intend.

 

For example, If I want to kill an AV13 tank, one melta gun will fail to do anything if within 6 inches quite often. You have a 2/6 (33%) chance of missing and if you do hit a 17% chance of not getting through the armour. Unless I have nothing better to do I wouldn’t want to waste a unit on a 50-50 chance of doing something.

 

The chance of both melta guns missing is 4/36 (11%). For 5 points I have tripled my chances of not missing.

If I do hit with both, great, My chance of not getting through the armour is 3%.

 

If I can substantially improve my ability for a few points I will.

 

I’m not saying you should use a 200 point to tactical squad to kill a tank, I think two attack bikes does it better, but if I did I would give it two meltaguns.

[Muctar]

In large games of 2000-2500 points i've run 4 tacticals in rhinos, two with meltagun and combimelta, the other two with flamer and combiflamer. The meltas usually supported hammernators since the meltas were effective against those targets the termies would target. The flamers were used against the lighter troops. Its effective as the tacticals are still doing what they do best: shooting.

[appiah4]

The PW/PF upgrades have become less and less useful as the number of armies/units a tactical squad can beat in assault became less and less numerous.

 

Hence, increasing shooting synergy became more important.

[appiah4]

create 24" no go zones.

Seriously? where does this idea come from? Is anyone seriously going to say, "Oh my. A tact squad with a MM and plasma gun in a rhino... thats it... I cant go within 24" of that." Even if you had 3 x 10 man unit in rhino with melta + combi melta and MM I would still drive my damn LR at you (with smoke) because I know when your transports pop I will get 30 kills and all of your troops in one go. Odds are you wont pop a LR even with 3 MM and even if you do it wont stop my assault on you.

 

If you use 3-4 of these units, they'll me a lot more effective than a bunch of attack bikes. It's what I do, and it's effective.