Combi Weapons

[Black Mage 257]

create 24" no go zones.

Seriously? where does this idea come from? Is anyone seriously going to say, "Oh my. A tact squad with a MM and plasma gun in a rhino... thats it... I cant go within 24" of that." Even if you had 3 x 10 man unit in rhino with melta + combi melta and MM I would still drive my damn LR at you (with smoke) because I know when your transports pop I will get 30 kills and all of your troops in one go. Odds are you wont pop a LR even with 3 MM and even if you do it wont stop my assault on you.

 

If you use 3-4 of these units, they'll me a lot more effective than a bunch of attack bikes. It's what I do, and it's effective.

 

Sorry guys, not trying to be rude or that but I think the initial topic was about why combi-weapons are popular, not so much about the denial zones and melta bunkers effectiveness. Should probably stick to that before we get struck by Mod related Lightning ;)

[Atlantic]

I'm not a huge fan of combi weapons. I use a few here and there, mostly in the form of a combi melta, but it is a one use item.

 

Even more so, you have a 33% chance of it missing outright and that is before you ever try to roll to wound or for armour penetration.

 

With a powerfist or power weapon, you will get a minimum of two attempts to hit, each time you are in combat.

 

I agree that combat is not ideal for tactical marines, but you are much more likely to pop a tank by shooting it with a melta gun and charging it with a power fist and krak grenades than you are by shooting it with your one use combi melta and a melta gun.

 

Now before you go and say "Hey that squad has a multi melta too!" I ask the question how often do you have to move that tac squad? I'm sure you aren't shooting it more than a couple times per game.

 

In one combat phase your powerfist will probably pay for itself. Your combi melta *might* pay for itself if you have better luck than I do.

 

 

The bigger issue here is not the effectiveness of power weapons, power fists, and combi weapons. Tactical squads just aren't that good on their own. They could use some tweakage.

[ShinyRhino]

I agree that combat is not ideal for tactical marines, but you are much more likely to pop a tank by shooting it with a melta gun and charging it with a power fist and krak grenades than you are by shooting it with your one use combi melta and a melta gun.

 

I think you might find this to be incorrect, especially against AV12+ or vehicles that moved, or both.

[Atlantic]

That just isn't possible.

 

If you go combi melta, melta gun, you are only getting two shots both of which have an innate 33% chance of missing outright. One of which can only be shot once for the duration of the game. Then you have to pen or glance and roll well. This entirely doable, but less reliable than melta gun + pfist.

 

If you go melta, plus power fist, plus 9 krak grenades you have many more opportunities to get it done. On the charge alone you will get 3 swings on your power fist that follow a melta shot. Most of the time you are going to need 4's to hit. I'm not a math expert, but you are probably going to hit it 1.5 times with your power fist and 4.5 times with krak grenades. You are going to also be hitting rear armour. Most rear armour is a 10. So you have a 50% chance to glance or pen with your krak grenades and a 66% chance of penning with your power fist.

 

Weight of numbers will carry the day. Especially if you get lucky and immobilized the thing with your melta shot.

 

This is the same reason twin linked assault cannons are so effective against armour. You have 4 opportunities to get something done rather than one lascannon shot.

[Mysticaria]

That just isn't possible.

 

If you go combi melta, melta gun, you are only getting two shots both of which have an innate 33% chance of missing outright. One of which can only be shot once for the duration of the game. Then you have to pen or glance and roll well. This entirely doable, but less reliable than melta gun + pfist.

 

If you go melta, plus power fist, plus 9 krak grenades you have many more opportunities to get it done. On the charge alone you will get 3 swings on your power fist that follow a melta shot. Most of the time you are going to need 4's to hit. I'm not a math expert, but you are probably going to hit it 1.5 times with your power fist and 4.5 times with krak grenades. You are going to also be hitting rear armour. Most rear armour is a 10. So you have a 50% chance to glance or pen with your krak grenades and a 66% chance of penning with your power fist.

 

Weight of numbers will carry the day. Especially if you get lucky and immobilized the thing with your melta shot.

 

This is the same reason twin linked assault cannons are so effective against armour. You have 4 opportunities to get something done rather than one lascannon shot.

The problem is when you need 6+ to hit against AV12, 13, 14.... then what? Krak grenades are useless. Powerfist only really helps in scenarios where the squad is already doing ok, like against rhinos or trukks. Combimelta helps in situations where the squad is seriously outclassed, like against an ironclad dread or a land raider, and provides a significant boost in ability in those situations for very small percentage of points.

 

It's all about capability. A combi-weapon simply adds more "capability" to a squad than a powerfist or power weapon does. Powerweapons and Powerfists are good and can boost the squad, but they can't really make the difference between losing and winning. They can make losing badly into losing less badly or turn winning into winning more, but they don't change the equation. Meanwhile, the right combi-weapon in a squad can actually change the targets that a tactical squad can engage, and can change the missions that it can undertake.

 

Please please please remember that in this context, you can't look at the squad in a vacuum. This goes for the no-go-zone bunkers as well. Just taking a single tactical squad with a couple plasmaguns and a multimelta UNSUPPORTED is probably going to be suicide. However, when it is properly SUPPORTED, like with a nearby dread, or a nearby vindicator, or a nearby terminator squad... it really isn't very suicidal and it really does create a no-go zone... much more than a squad with 1 special weapon and a powerfist.

 

-Myst

[Atlantic]

I agree with what you are saying.

 

I also think alot of this is list dependent. For example, if you are using Vulkan add those combi meltas and all the other melta and flamer weapons you can find.

 

But, I don't see myself punching AV 12 armour that I need a 6 to hit all that often. Land Raiders can be a pain, but there is so much redundancy in most lists they aren't really *that* hard to pop.

 

I also agree that Combi weapons are cool and add utility to the squad. However, I do not agree they are more effective than a power fist or power weapon. Given they are a one use item, they are not worth the points unless you have some cool way to make them twin linked or special in another regard.

 

Now if they were changed so that they could be fired more often, sign me up. I'll give my sergeant one and a powerfist!

[ShinyRhino]

You ahve to compare apples to apples, though.

The situation is this:

 

2 melta shots, followed by 10 krak grenades

OR

1 meltashot, followed by 3 powerfist attacks and 9 krak grenades.

 

The 2 melta shot scenario results in 1.32 hits in the shooting phase, and .91 percent chance to cause an effect with the hit(s) against AV10.

The 10 krak grenades hit 5 times against AV10 that moved 6" or less, with a .50 chance to have an effect per hit.

The meltas end up causing 1.2012 effects, and the kraks 2.5. All told, 3.7 effects.

 

The other scenario results in .66 melta hits with a .91 chance to affect = .6006

Powerfist is 1.5 hits with .83 chance to affect = 1.245

Kraks are 4.5 hits with .5 chance to affect = 2.25

All told, 4.0956 effects.

 

The problem is that as AV and/or speed increases, the heavy lifters in the second squad scenario (powerfist/kraks) have diminishing returns, whereas that 1.2012 melta effects from Squad One diminish at a lesser rate due to the S8+2d6 and constant .66 to hit, and they're doubly as effective as the lone melta in Squad Two.

 

The best solution is to take both a combimelta and a powerfist on a sergeant, but who wants to increase the cost of a Sergeant by 200%?

[Atlantic]

Yah forget that.

[Oppressor]

If everyone is so concerned about shooting ability, and not with assault because of chapter tactics, would that also make meltabombs worthwhile? 15points gets you a combi-melta and melta bombs and since they are multiple use and you are just trying to leave combat anyway, an extra 8+2D6 attack for after the combo-melta is wasted can only help I would think.

[Bannus]

To steer the topic a bit back on topic:

 

Most players prefer to use the special weapon/combi-weapon of the same type (i.e. flamer w/combi-flamer; plasma gun w/ combi-plasma; meltagun w/combi-melta).

 

Does anyone prefer to mix it up at all? Any combos work well for you?

[fivepointedstar]

In my tactical unit I haven't use combi weapons mainly cause my sgt with PF, and stormbolter work just fine. And like GC08 said I use to support with lots of firepower. I prefer to saturate my enemy with bolter rounds, and then if they manage to survive then last ditch effort either walk backward, and fire, or enter CCQ with any non-MEQ units.

[Mysticaria]

I agree with what you are saying.

 

I also think alot of this is list dependent. For example, if you are using Vulkan add those combi meltas and all the other melta and flamer weapons you can find.

 

But, I don't see myself punching AV 12 armour that I need a 6 to hit all that often. Land Raiders can be a pain, but there is so much redundancy in most lists they aren't really *that* hard to pop.

 

I also agree that Combi weapons are cool and add utility to the squad. However, I do not agree they are more effective than a power fist or power weapon. Given they are a one use item, they are not worth the points unless you have some cool way to make them twin linked or special in another regard.

 

Now if they were changed so that they could be fired more often, sign me up. I'll give my sergeant one and a powerfist!

 

I didn't say they were more effective. I said they "add capability" to the squad. They don't need to be twin linked if they are the same type as the squad already has. It still doubles the squads chance to have an effect with that weapon on that turn. Most times you get to shoot once at close range and then you are in combat so firing only once isn't always a disadvantage. At the end of the day, if I can make my 200 point squad more effective and able to engage more targets effectively for only 10 points I'm going to do it.

 

-Myst

[WeaponAdept]

If you ignore the dice, combi weapons LOOK much much cooler....

[Brother Tual]

Yuck. A tactical squads' worth is not how well it kills armour. Melta or powerfist is not a good choice if your intention is to kill armour. A PF is only good to kill T4 multiple wound models. Anything higher than this is a waste of the ENTIRE unit. Get MM attack bikes or whatever. Do the job properly and stop using 200+ points to get the same results as a 50 point unit. This is why Tacticals are not favoured. They dont do what other codex can do because people use them incorrectly. People understand you dont put a 5 man tactical squad in combat with a fist (essentially 2 significant attacks) yet they dont see the same in pitting essentially 2 attacks against armour.

 

My belief is your unit should be armed to take on the role they do best. Not to change it. A combi weapon - plasma or flamer - adds to the primary role and is always supported by the whole. Bolters kill terminators. Bolters dont kill tanks. PF is a good option but over costed if you consider the primary role of a tactical squad. In saying that if I had to choose between Combi melta and fist or Combi flamer and fist I would choose the latter. I will always get support from within the unit. I will always feel like the plebs are adding to the whole.

[Black Mage 257]

If you ignore the dice, combi weapons LOOK much much cooler....

 

Well said ^_^

[Mysticaria]

The OP asked Why people are taking Combi-weapons...

 

So if you came here to say why combiweapons are bad... or why you don't take them... start another thread because this isn't the place. You are not helping the conversation, and in fact are preventing the OP from getting his question answered. If you want to say why you think people are taking combi-weapons, then this is the place.

 

-Myst

[Bannus]

The OP asked Why people are taking Combi-weapons...

 

So if you came here to say why combiweapons are bad... or why you don't take them... start another thread because this isn't the place. You are not helping the conversation, and in fact are preventing the OP from getting his question answered. If you want to say why you think people are taking combi-weapons, then this is the place.

 

-Myst

This could then give the OP the wrong impression.

 

He is asking why take combi-weapons on Sergeants. He wants to know about the reasons to take them since he admitted to having never thought about doing it before.

 

With only one side of the argument, he may get the impression that they truly are the bee's knees - only to be disappointed when he uses them on the tabletop because no one told him about the potential drawbacks. When someone is asking about a tactic they have never contemplated before, it is best to get all of the pros AND cons of that tactic - right?

 

As long as the information is constructive, dissenting opinions are valid.

 

Here is a question to get the ball rolling again: I have never understood equipping a Sergeant with a combi-plasma (and no power weapon/fist). Wouldn't it be better to equip him with a plasma pistol and bolter instead? After all, the plasma pistol doesn't run out of ammo.

[Kierdale]

At the moment I don't have any in my tactical squads but after getting back into the game a decade since my last battle and finding them this popular I am sorely tempted to get out the knife and convert some onto my sergeants.

I do have one on each of my scout sergeants since it's the only way to get a special weapon into their squads...and I doubt they'll be needed more than once (lack of opportunity/squishiness of scouts). As others have mentioned, a combi-flamer is a guaranteed hit and that's hard not to be tempted by!

[JamesI]

Here is a question to get the ball rolling again: I have never understood equipping a Sergeant with a combi-plasma (and no power weapon/fist). Wouldn't it be better to equip him with a plasma pistol and bolter instead? After all, the plasma pistol doesn't run out of ammo.

I wouldn't use a combi-plasma without a powerfist first. For basically the reason you stated.

[appiah4]

Here is a question to get the ball rolling again: I have never understood equipping a Sergeant with a combi-plasma (and no power weapon/fist). Wouldn't it be better to equip him with a plasma pistol and bolter instead? After all, the plasma pistol doesn't run out of ammo.

I wouldn't use a combi-plasma without a powerfist first. For basically the reason you stated.

 

To be fair, a Power Fist is 2 swings of an S8 No Armor Save weapon that hits on 4+ vs WS4 infantry and autokills T4. It's a poor choice against against moving armor. The enemy gets retaliation.

 

A Combi-Plasma is 2 S7 AP2 (basically No Armor Save) weapon that hits on 3+ vs any infantry and wounds on 2+ against T4. Moving or not, you have a chance to penetrate/glance any armor. The enemy gets no retaliation.

 

The argument is, CP is one use, the PF is not. My argument is that, in my experience, Tactical Squads rarely get to swing a PF more than once, and when/if they do, that means they probably didn't need it in the first place, they would have won anyway. 1 Power Fist can't change the outcome of an assault.

 

1 CP by itself isn't a big deal maybe, but if you couple it with the squad special Pg, then you get 4 S7 AP2 shots at 3+ to hit, that's 3 wounds on average. That, for 20 pts, for me is a better deal than 2 swings of the PF for 25 pts.

[DarkGuard]

Here is a question to get the ball rolling again: I have never understood equipping a Sergeant with a combi-plasma (and no power weapon/fist). Wouldn't it be better to equip him with a plasma pistol and bolter instead? After all, the plasma pistol doesn't run out of ammo.

 

Points cost. A combi-plasma is 5pts less than a plasma pistol, and so is cheaper. Of course, the plasma pistol has unlimited ammo as well, but the odds are that you're only likely to fire it once or twice in the game. At 12" the combi-plasma fires twice (once), while the plasma pistol must be at that range, so in the end the shots end up being rather similar. In that one turn it doubles the unit's plasma output, which is valuable in taking down many elite units. Often 3 shots won't cut it, even over a sustained period, but 4 shots will, and for the cheaper option you still have a bolt pistol for charging and the boltgun for after firing it.

 

By reverse, I don't understand equipping a combi-plasma on a power fist Sergeant. Again, by the merit of the plasma pistol not running out of ammo the very fact that the Sergeant has a power fist is irrelevant, he doesn't get the +1A for two weapons but that doesn't influence the pistol having unlimited ammo. Also, the pistol allows him to fire a plasma shot and charge in with his power fist, the combi-plasma doesn't.

 

By this merit, I feel that if you're using the plasma pistol you need to at least pair it with a CCW or power weapon to get the most out of it, otherwise due to points cost and the reality of only really being able to get one or two shots from it, you may be better off with the combi-plasma.

[Mysticaria]

What Darkguard said and...

 

Plasmapistol is significantly overpriced (should be 5 points in my opinion) and isn't really useful outside of a dedicated assault squad that wants to charge no matter what. Tactical marines don't want to charge everything all the time, they often like to rapid fire, and even in those cases where they do want to charge something they aren't in need of a plasmapistol. And... If you were of that mindset to charge first and ask questions later, you should take the combi-melta instead. It's 5 points cheaper, has better AP, higher strength, better against vehicles, (is sometimes even twinlinked), and adds the same number of attacks to a powerfist that a plasmapistol does.

 

The purpose of the plasmagun squad is to have the "potential" to fire 2 plasmaguns in one turn. For 10 points you can make a unit (often a combat squad) pretty good at shooting for one turn, able to target light vehicles, MCs, heavy infantry, and light infantry. Meanwhile, the powerfist doesn't really add any ability to target anything new... the squad is still mediocre in shooting and mediocre in assault.

 

Combiweapons have "potential" until they are used. Once they are used, the potential is converted (or kinetic), it influences the game, and then is gone. However, as long as the weapon hasn't been used, it's effect on the game is constant. Chess players know a lot about "potential" and how pieces affect a game not by what they are currently doing but by what they can potentially be doing, and it's a topic that I think is often overlooked in warhammer which is at its heart a very similar tactics/strategy game. Units influence a game with their actual influence and their potential influence. Outflanking genestealers, Snikrot/Zagstrukk, landspeeders within 24" of an objective... they have an effect on the game not by what they are doing at the moment, but by what they threaten to do. Combi-weapons have this same effect on the game. If they are looked at as "one-shot weapons" they don't look that good, but if you look at what adding them to a unit does to that unit's "potential" then they look really good. When you compare that increase in potential to their point cost... about 5% of the total cost of the squad... they look even better. I'm convinced that people who discount combiweapons as "one-shot" and "overpriced" don't really think about potential the same way I do.

 

-Myst

[Hellios]

I'm going to assume a list that isn't built on tactical squads here... a couple for mandatory troops but not units that are considered the key to everything...

 

I think the problem with tacticals (and assault squads) is that people over simplify them and say "Only any good at shooting..." Tactical squads however are not shooty units (In the same way assault squads are not choppy units!) and are in fact support units.

 

Rather than playing to their 'strengths' which are lacking they should play to their 'weaknesses' or should I say their lack of. Then they should play against their enemies weaknesses. Tacticals might not be great in combat but I think they would do better in combat point for point against fire warriors than out shooting them. On the other hand they might want to shoot Dark Eldar Wyches... They are pants at destroying armour but people often put tank busting weapons in them... Why? So when they NEED that tank busted they have a few more options... Having something to do while sitting on the back of the board out of the action is also nice.

 

The upgrades are always a topic of debate and it depends on what the rest of your list consists of and how you play it. My Dark Angels list has 3 tactical squads at 1,500pts but it plays in a different way to my other marine armies and doesn't have any power fists in the tactical squads, My tacticals are more passive in this list adding fire power from a distance and not in my front line. While my Minotaurs list has my tactical squads right up close and personal supporting combat units, although the tacticals might not always been in combat themselves.

 

 

As for combi-weapons... If you have the points and if your sergeant isn't taking a close combat upgrade or you are pimping him out with all the trimmings including a fist then a combi-flamer isn't bad. It should hit enough MEQ to have a chance of doing some harm and it really will hurt soft infantry. As with the other upgrades it depends on what you are going to do and you play against. Plasma and Melta-combies are more of a 'HAIL MARY' game plan... Which can save your ass with luck but you can't count on them. They are however useful in a squad with a dedicated purpose. If I step away from tactical squads for a second suicide LSS melta scouts can always use an extra shot to help make sure they do their job and once they have tried... one way or another that might be it for them so the loss of the combi-melta isn't huge but blowing up a land raider before it moves could be!

 

It is like assault marines being bad in combat... I don't see assault in this case to mean close combat but to mean to attack in an agressive manner. People will say Ork boyz will mess up assault marines... Maybe they will but I've found that that an assault squad with two flamers will soften most units a bit and if another squad happens to be adding bolter fire you then have a weakened opponent that the assault marines should be able to finish off. Tactical marines and Assault marines shouldn't be working alone, they are not strong enough for that but the strength is that they do not fold the second they are caught alone.

[Kronk]

I think the idea is it's more points effecient, Tacs a generally meh in close combat so save the points on a ccw and chuck in an extra special weapon shot since most people seem to only get a single round of shooting, no one really uses them to shoot 24 inch.

 

For this exact reason! :D

 

After finally realizing that tactical squads are to support your assault units, I switched to giving the sergeants a combi-whatever to match the special weapon in the squad. If the special weapon is a flamer, he gets a combi flamer, and so on.

 

A power weapon and or power fist is still fine, but my opinion is that your tactical squads are only for mopping up deminished units or units that are weaker in assault.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

To steer the topic a bit back on topic:

 

Most players prefer to use the special weapon/combi-weapon of the same type (i.e. flamer w/combi-flamer; plasma gun w/ combi-plasma; meltagun w/combi-melta).

 

Does anyone prefer to mix it up at all? Any combos work well for you?

 

 

I haven't played much with them, but I run my Tactical Squads with multi-melta, flamer, combi-melta. The combi is an "last ditch" weapon if I've fired everything else and that tank still hasn't died. Generally the flamer works better for me because it works with the bolters that are the main weapon of the Tacticals. Of course the combi is just another bolter unless I really need that shot.

 

I've thought about taking a meltagun, but bolters don't hurt armour, and generally I don't need my 200 points of Tactical squad firing at a 35 point transport. That's what I have riflemen and land speeders for.