OK I don't get "wound allocation"

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

I don't get how this is supposed to work. It's supposed to be this great secret art where you play the shell game with wounds and save models, and apparently Black Templars are supposed to be better at it than most. But I don't get how it all breaks down. I was reading this article (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Art_of_Wound_Allocation) which I'll quote directly for my questions, cause it makes the most sense to me, but it still makes little sense.

 

"Fifth Edition brought about a new little rule in accordance to wound allocation. Basically it states that you must allocate wounds to individual groups of models that are armed in exactly the same way (this means the same weapons, wargear, and armour value among models). These units are called "complex units" and the precise rules for them can be found in the Main Rulebook (page 25). This little rule can come in handy when faced against units of enemies that use overkill to take out our Templars..."

 

So I have to allocate wounds to the individual groups of models with all the same wargear. Does that mean if I take five wounds in combat, and I have a squad of 3 bolters, 1 Las Cannon and 1 Plasma Gun that if I give one wound to the Las Cannon, I give them all to the Las Cannon? He's the only one armed that way.

 

"The trick to this art is making sure you have different kinds of units in one squad. For example, in a 10 man squad I could have a very complex unit:

 

1 with Powerfist

1 with melta, flamer or plasma

4 with cc weapons

2 with bolters

1 neophyte with a shotgun

1 neophyte with a cc weapon and pistol

 

This gives us an optimized 6 groups! That means that we can allocate the armour ignoring wounds to models like the neophytes individually and make the most out of your units.

 

Say the above unit took 18 regular wounds and 3 Power Weapon hits... You would allocate one power weapon hit to the shotgun neophyte, then one regular wound each to the rest of the squad, then another power weapon to the neophyte then another regular each, then the last power weapon hit to the poor neophyte. This means that the neophyte will really be dead (taking all 3 power weapon hits) and then each other model takes 2 saves... And the beauty of this is that at least they take their armor saves, instead of losing three models. "

 

How the heck do you give all three rending wounds to one model? Is it because it's a certain type of wound so it follows the rule that wounds have to be given to models armed the same? How can you give wounds to different members of a complex squad if wounds have to be given to miniatures with the same wargear? I've read and reread the rule, and it doesn't make sense. The way I was taught is that you can't give a second wound to a model until everyone in a squad has taken a wound. But that seems to conflict with what is, to me, a very clumsily-worded rule. The rule as worded doesn't make sense to me, is the core of my problem, I guess. Under the way I was taught, the above scenario makes more sense, but what I was taught (can't give a second wound to a model until everything in the squad takes a wound) contradicts to the "same wargear" wording of the complex unit rule. Can someone spell this in plain English? I understand what he did, cause he had enough wounds to give out to his squad and come back and put the PW wounds on his Neo, and that makes sense with what I was taught about wound alocation, but I can't reconcile it with the wording of the "complex unit" rule in the WH40kRB. I get the playing Duck, Duck Goose with wounds bit, I don't get the wording of the rule.

[Morollan]

There's a sticky at the top of the OR forum that you might find helpful

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=241696

[Morollan]

1 with Powerfist

1 with melta, flamer or plasma

4 with cc weapons

2 with bolters

1 neophyte with a shotgun

1 neophyte with a cc weapon and pistol

 

This gives us an optimized 6 groups! That means that we can allocate the armour ignoring wounds to models like the neophytes individually and make the most out of your units.

 

Say the above unit took 18 regular wounds and 3 Power Weapon hits... You would allocate one power weapon hit to the shotgun neophyte, then one regular wound each to the rest of the squad, then another power weapon to the neophyte then another regular each, then the last power weapon hit to the poor neophyte. This means that the neophyte will really be dead (taking all 3 power weapon hits) and then each other model takes 2 saves... And the beauty of this is that at least they take their armor saves, instead of losing three models. "

 

Basic situation is that you have 10 models and 21 wounds to allocate. You must allocate 1 wound to each model before a 2nd wound can be allocated to any model. So using your example you would need to allocate 2 wounds per model and one model takes 3. You might* do this as follows (R = regular wound, P = power weapon):

 

1 with Powerfist - R,R

1 with melta, flamer or plasma - R,R

4 with cc weapons - R,R,R,R,R,R,R,R

2 with bolters - P,P,P,R,R

1 neophyte with a shotgun - R,R

1 neophyte with a cc weapon and pistol - R,R

 

The bit that seems to get many people is that after wounds are allocated you roll saves in groups. So in this case you would roll saves as follows:

 

1 with Powerfist - 2 x 3+

1 with melta, flamer or plasma - 2 x 3+

4 with cc weapons - 8 x 3+

2 with bolters - 2 x 3+, 3 x no save

1 neophyte with a shotgun - 2 x 3+

1 neophyte with a cc weapon and pistol - 2 x 3+

 

Any failed saves in one group do not carry over into other groups even if the first group is wiped out. So the 2 x 3+ and 3 x no save allocated to the group of 2 would wipe that group out easily but cannot damage any of the other groups.

 

Hope this helps

 

*note that this is not necessarily an ideal allocation, just meant to illustrate a point

[Frosty the Pyro]

There's a sticky at the top of the OR forum that you might find helpful

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=241696

 

Indeed. :tu:

 

 

 

 

But yeah you apply wounds to MODELS, you THEN take saves within "like groups." like groups being the same wargear bit, and then unsaved wounds from thos like groups are used to remove casualties in each like group.

 

So that is how you reconcile it with the complex unit rules, they are about different steps or the process. The complex unit rules are about the taking saves and removing casualty steps.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Always nice for me to get a refresher by reading how it works. It bugs me when people try to be sneaky and roll everything at once (like when 9 Tsons rapid fire on 5 complex marines), and only want to allocate when it benefits them (nob bikers)

 

I sincerely hope that this goes away in the next edition, but I'll stop there before I start something ^.~

[Brother Saturnus]

So if I had a command squad ( champion, x2 power weapons, a flamer, and apocothary) and received 4 regular wounds and 2 power weapon wounds would my champion if given 2 power weapon wounds and died with the first one, failing his INV save, would nullify the second powerweapon wound?

 

Also now I'm confused as to how to allocate wounds to my independent character if he's not in base contact, is he treated as a part of the complex unit? Or is he effectively invulnerable until he gets into base.

 

I'm going back to the rules book as I type, but please clarify. I've been doing it wrong!

[greatcrusade08]

So if I had a command squad ( champion, x2 power weapons, a flamer, and apocothary) and received 4 regular wounds and 2 power weapon wounds would my champion if given 2 power weapon wounds and died with the first one, failing his INV save, would nullify the second powerweapon wound?

 

Thats correct

although technically there isnt a first or second save, he forms a group of one for wound allocation, and that group has to take 2 PW saves.. the same result would happen if the flamer guy was to take the two PW saves (that he cant save against anyway).. both Pw wounds would be put onto his 'group' and cause two unsaved wounds.. as his group is only one man, only one man dies

 

Also now I'm confused as to how to allocate wounds to my independent character if he's not in base contact, is he treated as a part of the complex unit? Or is he effectively invulnerable until he gets into base.

ICs form thier own units when in combat, anything in base contact or 2" (assuming not in combat with your unit) can strike at him, with all wounds being taken by him alone

[Morollan]

Also now I'm confused as to how to allocate wounds to my independent character if he's not in base contact, is he treated as a part of the complex unit? Or is he effectively invulnerable until he gets into base.

ICs form thier own units when in combat, anything in base contact or 2" (assuming not in combat with your unit) can strike at him, with all wounds being taken by him alone

 

We'd always played that you had to be in base contact with an IC to attack him because the IC rules say that he has to be in base contact to attack someone ans we assumed it worked both ways. Reading the assault rules again though, it looks like you're right. You learn something every day!

[Valerian]

Also now I'm confused as to how to allocate wounds to my independent character if he's not in base contact, is he treated as a part of the complex unit? Or is he effectively invulnerable until he gets into base.

ICs form thier own units when in combat, anything in base contact or 2" (assuming not in combat with your unit) can strike at him, with all wounds being taken by him alone

 

We'd always played that you had to be in base contact with an IC to attack him because the IC rules say that he has to be in base contact to attack someone ans we assumed it worked both ways. Reading the assault rules again though, it looks like you're right. You learn something every day!

 

Just to clarify this further, somebody does have to be in base contact with the IC, otherwise he is essentially invulnerable. Assuming a model is, however, in base contact with the IC, then that model and any other models from the same unit within 2" can attack the IC.

 

Clear as mud yet?

 

Valerian

[JamesI]

Also now I'm confused as to how to allocate wounds to my independent character if he's not in base contact, is he treated as a part of the complex unit? Or is he effectively invulnerable until he gets into base.

ICs form thier own units when in combat, anything in base contact or 2" (assuming not in combat with your unit) can strike at him, with all wounds being taken by him alone

 

We'd always played that you had to be in base contact with an IC to attack him because the IC rules say that he has to be in base contact to attack someone ans we assumed it worked both ways. Reading the assault rules again though, it looks like you're right. You learn something every day!

 

Just to clarify this further, somebody does have to be in base contact with the IC, otherwise he is essentially invulnerable. Assuming a model is, however, in base contact with the IC, then that model and any other models from the same unit within 2" can attack the IC.

 

Clear as mud yet?

 

Valerian

Well, actually its slightly more complex than that. If someone is in base with the IC, they and anyone within 2 inches of that person from the same unit, who is not in base with someone else, can attack the IC.

[Arikel]

The ic has to be in base to base with the unit to attack or to be attacked. Any member of the unit within 2 inches of the model who is in base to base with the ic can attack the ic, unless they are in base to base with a different unit but not in base to base with the IC. Just figured I would sum it up. So yes putting a ic in the back will make him invulnerable, but he can't attack either.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The ic has to be in base to base with the unit to attack or to be attacked. Any member of the unit within 2 inches of the model who is in base to base with the ic can attack the ic, unless they are in base to base with a different unit but not in base to base with the IC. Just figured I would sum it up. So yes putting a ic in the back will make him invulnerable, but he can't attack either.

 

 

It should be noted that it is VERY dificult to "put" an IC in the back due to the IC specific rules for reacting to assualts and pile in (namely that the IC moves first to atempt to get into BtB if at all posible)

[Valerian]

The ic has to be in base to base with the unit to attack or to be attacked. Any member of the unit within 2 inches of the model who is in base to base with the ic can attack the ic, unless they are in base to base with a different unit but not in base to base with the IC. Just figured I would sum it up. So yes putting a ic in the back will make him invulnerable, but he can't attack either.

 

 

It should be noted that it is VERY dificult to "put" an IC in the back due to the IC specific rules for reacting to assualts and pile in (namely that the IC moves first to atempt to get into BtB if at all posible)

 

It should also be noted that those rules only apply when receiving a charge, and not when conducting one yourself.

[nurglez]

they also made an update in the rulebook faq that an IC can displace a squad member if that is the only way for the IC to get into base contact with the enemy.

 

edit:

 

Q: An Independent Character attached to a unit that is

reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move,

must move before other friendly models to attempt to

get in base contact with an enemy. What happens if

the Independent Character is blocked from getting to

enemy models by friendly models around him? (p49)

A: If it is possible to move friendly models out of the

way to make space for the Independent Character then

they must move first. Followed by the Independent

Character and finally the rest of the unit can move. If

the Independent Character is still unable to make it

into base contact he must move as close to the enemy

as possible.

Psykers

[Leonaides]

Not quite - if the friendly models who are in the way are already locked then they cannot move. You cant remove one from B-to-B and replace him with the character... It is possible, and sometimes advantageous, to avoid combat with a Character in this manner. Picture a ring of sternguard marines surrounding Lysander - if you can contact all of those marines so that Lysander cannot fit his base through, you dont have to fight him and can just beat them up in combat without having to fight him that round.

[Arikel]

It's not so likely with a marine squad but with big squads of orks and possibly IG it could happen. I once had a 30 man ork squad broken and swept into oblivion before my friend could get the warboss at the back of it in place to attack me;). After that battle he decided his commander should lead from the front, as a proper example to his lessers.

[Northstar]

Now Aren't you just glad you don't play fantasy?

[Northstar]

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