Honour Guard

[Captain Idaho]

It's been a long time coming, but I have enough free time for a short window to do some writing, so I wanted get started on an article giving advice on the use of Honour Guard in a Space Marines army.

 

Now, I would like to make it clear, I might very well hold this article until 6th edition hits, so it can be as up to date and relevant as possible. Doesn't mean I won't get it done before then, just that I want to amend it first.

 

As I'm at work I won't be able to write anything indepth on here myself right now, but I would like to see what other people think is key to using this army, the type of army they work in and the variants in their use (like 4 models + Master ranging up to optimum sized builds and even extreme ends of the spectrum like Calgar, 8 Honour Guard and a drop pod!).

 

Not to all; don't turn it into a debate whether you think the unit is worthwhile in an army, as that isn't the purpose of the thread.

 

Cheers all.

[Brother Tual]

hey mate. first off we have the obvious. chapter master. we have the big dog himself and then kantor + generic dudes. i have only used hg with the big dog in my list. i run 4 hg because thats what you get in the box and will most likely be the common build.

 

so with the above in mind i am playing a mid point levrl game (1k to 1500) otherwise i am running terminators instead of hg. i use hg to save on cost. i save primarily on transport cost. marneus will be in pa because i dont have a lr on the table. i wont put marneus with hg because at this points level marneus is more than enough for anything bar the most extreme builds which you dont often see due to points restriction.

 

marneus will ride with a demi tact squad with dual flamer in a razor. my hg become a counter strike unit rather than front liners. i will have them in a raxor back - tllc- if i have spare points (i like to spam hb at 1000) and possibly cassius with them to absorb the big hits and drastically increase their kill ratio. obviously i stay away from walkers but anything else that gets past marneus is fair game.

 

my unit..

chapter champion (basic)

banner bearer with relic blade

2 x basic.

 

i stack all the upgrades because i dont reduce my attacks due to the model already having the banner and i get to stack wounds with an obvious model to save. giving the rb to the champ only gives you two other models before something expensive goes and i prefer to stack multiple ap2 on the champ than instant loose two guys. i dont really miss the higher ws if i have a chaplain in the unit.

[Captain Idaho]

Very interesting concept there matey. Typical of yourself actually; a thinking man's use of Honour Guard. I normally go all out to maximise their damage output potential with regards to putting a Relic Blade on the Champion, increasing their survival odds by using the Master's Storm Shield to take hits (a truely double edged sword).

 

Also interesting in how you use them. By making sure the Master (Calgar in your case) is elsewhere; they aren't wasted hanging back in a counter attack role as the points investment are so much reduced. I might try it that way actually, as I've never broken from my usual method of running the unit.

[white raven]

I love honour guard, never tried em for a long time until i read a previous tactica by a well known poster on the B&C :down:

 

For me thier biggest weakness is other cc troops especially with the vast quantity of power weapon attacks in the game, on the charge the amount of power weapon attacks even a champ and a couple of guard and a banner is able to throw out is utterly scary and can tear through almost anything.

 

I would normally run them with a counts as Khan, it means sacrificing a hq slot but i find it well worth it that +1 I from furious charge meaning im going before things like standard marines and little nids which makes a huge difference, moonfang and hit and run are just gravy.

 

Very much a very glass cannon lack of inv save means they cant take the hits, even with a captain with storm shield, id usually run a small squad in a razorback and try to keep em behind one of my other tanks as a counter-assault unit for my gunline, once in position the razor can offer further fire support and the honour guard are ready to jump out and mash face where necessary

 

one thing i havent been able to clarify is a relic balde s6 or s7 with furious charge? the entry says resolved at S6 so dont normally run a relic blade on champ

 

Biggest feeling i have on honour guard they need to obliterate whatever they hit while the 2+ artificer can shrug off standard attacks quite well the moment they come up against the tougher stuff you need to be wary.

 

Have had a lot of sucess in my crimson fists with these guys, counter-assault to protect the sternguard using a stubborn tac squad if necessary to tie up the attacker to ensure the charge, and pedro means even more attacks

[DarkGuard]

Well I run the Idaho Pattern squad, so I'm sure Idaho could cover them better than me ^_^.

 

Obviously relic blade/storm shield Captain for 5 S6 attacks (on charge), plus 3++ to absorb power weapons. High initiative to clear some models out at I5. And then 1 Chapter Champion with relic blade, one guy with Chapter Banner, and 3 normal guys. 25 attacks, 5 at S6, so will level most squads.

 

Of course, keep away from mass power weapon and low AP attacks.

 

I tend to use them as either a counter-attack unit behind my frontline or a spearhead unit, rooting out enemy troop units and even Hammernators etc in my DoubleGuard list (thanks to Null Zone). They do do well alongside Sternguard, Sternguard weakening enemy units and the Honour Guard finishing them off/protecting them.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

If you are keeping the unit hanging back as a counter charge unit, it does give you an opportunity to use Orbital Bombardment, a skill that otherwise could be wasted for the Chapter Master...I guess it all depends on how mobile he needs to be at the time

[darrkespur]

I love my Pedro + 4 honour guard (RB on champion) combination. It's not so much points that it dominates the list, but it gives my shooty army a really nice counter-assault unit and has been brutal in a lot of games. Trick with Pedro is to leave him behind the transport first turn. If there's a target of opportunity, his orbital bombardment can be an amazing asset and has really surprised a lot of people (best result was two wolf guard squads and a long fang squad - killed a few models in each and the long fangs and one wolf guard squad ran off the board). If there's nothing to fire at, he can hop back in the transport as normal.

 

I really do like my honour guard. If the rumoured 5++ in close combat from power swords happens in sixth, they'll be even better.

[Brother Tual]

I am no master in their use. I loved them in 4th ed and continued using them because I believe they are some mighty fine models.

 

I dont fully agree with

Master's Storm Shield to take hits

as a tactical consideration in their use. Your opponent allocates attacks in combat and can easily allocate power weapon wounds just as easily to your master as to your HG. This was one of the primary reasons that prompted me to put marneus elsewhere. People were just giving up on trying to kill him in combat but killed all of his guard. This reduced my win margin but also left marneus naked after assault. A 5 man tactical squad has the same issue however is much cheaper and often overlooked as a threat so the reward in allocating power weapon wounds on tactical marines as opposed to allocating on expensive models is not there.

 

Taking a wound from a lascannon on your master is not worth the risk. The ONLY weapon is plasma and these often come in multiples (multiples of rapid fire) and makes it difficult to allocate a meaningful amount of these wounds on your 3++ as a single HG lost is a good portion of your fighting strength.

 

 

I find Cassius is the best character to run with HG. You can actually allocate any weapon against him and not loose him. He can save your guys from a rouge lascannon and live. A 4++ is not THAT bad. He also boosts combat ability significantly as most of your attacks are WS4. He is relatively cheap as well. A very good addition and well worth the consideration. With my above config if you are dropped down to Cassius and one HG (most likely the banner bearer with RB) you get a boost in T against shooting as you now take on T6 from Cassius(Majority highest). You might think this is only a slight advantage, and it is, but to get here you have only lost 3 wounds. It is not un-common. In addition you have probably really hurt your opponent and this last increase in defense (Last hoorah) is often late in the game where this change becomes more significant and often tips the balance (4 tacticals from a 10 man squad late turns etc) beyond hope for your enemy. It is these little things that gets you that fine edge in your gaming and people dont see it coming.

[Mysticaria]

I find Cassius is the best character to run with HG. You can actually allocate any weapon against him and not loose him. He can save your guys from a rouge lascannon and live. A 4++ is not THAT bad. He also boosts combat ability significantly as most of your attacks are WS4. He is relatively cheap as well. A very good addition and well worth the consideration. With my above config if you are dropped down to Cassius and one HG (most likely the banner bearer with RB) you get a boost in T against shooting as you now take on T6 from Cassius(Majority highest). You might think this is only a slight advantage, and it is, but to get here you have only lost 3 wounds. It is not un-common. In addition you have probably really hurt your opponent and this last increase in defense (Last hoorah) is often late in the game where this change becomes more significant and often tips the balance (4 tacticals from a 10 man squad late turns etc) beyond hope for your enemy. It is these little things that gets you that fine edge in your gaming and people dont see it coming.

I like this. Put the Master with another unit to make 2 significant threats. Honorguard re-rolling hits sounds really good and Cassius is pretty cheap. You are giving up Null Zone... er... a Librarian to get this, so that may be a consideration.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

I am no master in their use. I loved them in 4th ed and continued using them because I believe they are some mighty fine models.

 

I dont fully agree with

Master's Storm Shield to take hits

as a tactical consideration in their use. Your opponent allocates attacks in combat and can easily allocate power weapon wounds just as easily to your master as to your HG. This was one of the primary reasons that prompted me to put marneus elsewhere. People were just giving up on trying to kill him in combat but killed all of his guard. This reduced my win margin but also left marneus naked after assault. A 5 man tactical squad has the same issue however is much cheaper and often overlooked as a threat so the reward in allocating power weapon wounds on tactical marines as opposed to allocating on expensive models is not there.

 

Taking a wound from a lascannon on your master is not worth the risk. The ONLY weapon is plasma and these often come in multiples (multiples of rapid fire) and makes it difficult to allocate a meaningful amount of these wounds on your 3++ as a single HG lost is a good portion of your fighting strength.

 

 

I find Cassius is the best character to run with HG. You can actually allocate any weapon against him and not loose him. He can save your guys from a rouge lascannon and live. A 4++ is not THAT bad. He also boosts combat ability significantly as most of your attacks are WS4. He is relatively cheap as well. A very good addition and well worth the consideration. With my above config if you are dropped down to Cassius and one HG (most likely the banner bearer with RB) you get a boost in T against shooting as you now take on T6 from Cassius(Majority highest). You might think this is only a slight advantage, and it is, but to get here you have only lost 3 wounds. It is not un-common. In addition you have probably really hurt your opponent and this last increase in defense (Last hoorah) is often late in the game where this change becomes more significant and often tips the balance (4 tacticals from a 10 man squad late turns etc) beyond hope for your enemy. It is these little things that gets you that fine edge in your gaming and people dont see it coming.

 

Which is why the movement phase is so critical to a successful Honour Guard charge. Nearest to nearest means that if their power weapon model is exposed, you make sure the Chapter Master is nearest to them. If not then make sure someone else is slightly nearer to another model. Position the Chapter Master teasingly infront of enemy power weapon models if you haven't quite got the 6" charge range with him specifically. Once the Chapter Master and only the Chapter Master is in B2B with the power weapon the power weapon has to attack him. Of course a wily opponent will hide them inside the squad making it harder, but in my experience most people make their Sergeants lead the squad, placing them at the front, so I've never found it hard there.

 

And obviously you don't risk your Master against ID weapons, I'd much rather lose an Honour Guard than the CM.

 

I like the Cassius idea with Honour Guard, I may have to try it. I do fear it is overkill against most squads with the banner and re-rolls, ideally you want to inflict a lot of damage but enough to make them run or die in the first turn, then finish them off in theirs. Cassius in the unit would most likely floor most units. The increase in survivability is interesting. Against plasma weapons etc it's obviously lower thanks to one less wound and a worst invulnerable save, which isn't bad as you say. And obviously it's higher against high strength weapons thanks to T6, though less chance to save initially. The main thing to remember with Cassius is that with his 2 wounds you've only got that one ablative wound, although you may be more willing to sacrifice that last wound than with a Master. Also, no model removal at I5, so most units will be hitting at high strength, although Cassius' combination of IC status, T6, 3+ save and FnP will make him more resistant in combat than either the Honour Guard or the CM. Being at least 45pts cheaper is handy as well.

 

It's an interesting choice to say the least, and I have no doubt that it would be a good choice. But as Myst has pointed up you use up all your slots, meaning you can't get a Null Zone Libby (which can really help the Honour Guard take down elite units if they have to) and of course no psychic defense. Also, your CM is in another role that he may not be best suited for. Certainly an option that you've have to build into the list. The good thing about the CM is that he can be integral to the unit beyond unlocking them in the HQ section. Maybe not in lower point games is what I suppose I'm trying to say.

[Brother Tual]

I get unit model placement within the unit but you dont always get to charge. Not only that but you have to be EXACT with your range estimates. 1/2" can make all the difference and is risky. I dont discount it though and if you have a 3++ in the unit than this is definately the way you should be using it.

 

I do fear it is overkill against most squads with the banner and re-rolls, ideally you want to inflict a lot of damage but enough to make them run or die in the first turn, then finish them off in theirs.

Ideal yes, hard to gauge though. Like I said, I am no master and this is boarding on knife edge 'estimation' as one poor round or one above average round nmakes or breaks this... and it doent have to be only your dice behaving... I always go for over kill so I dont bounce when I roll a bunch of 1's and 2's. The low model count mitigates the otherwise 'top' end (re-roll hit with + Attacks and all power weapons etc) and doesnt push this unit into the 'win more' arena but into the reliable arena. If you can evaluate combat well, by all means landing the right amount of force to break in your opponents turn is mostly far superior (with the only exception being if you are locked within range of multiple enemy combat units where breaking combat and moving away in consolidation puts you out of range... but this is a very rare situation)

[Stormshadow]

First of all, let me just say that I have never played with honor guard and will thus refrain from giving advice on the matter, but allow me to ponder…

 

There weakness is the lack of invulnerable save, making them weaker than terminators. It takes 30 Power Weapon attacks at WS4 and S4 to kill 5 Terminators with Storm Shields, that is 7,5 Honor Guards on the assault. Let’s say 7 is enough if we also attach a HQ. If that HQ is a Librarian we get a 5++, but the Terminators are already dead before they strike back. However, if those terminators have Lightning Claws, they will take 3,75 Honor Guards with them as they die. In this specific circumstance it would be better to ad Khan for I5 rather than a Librarian for 5++. If they are themselves assaulted or assault a unit with I5 or I6 the 5++ would often serve them better.

 

My personal dilemma is to figure out when it is better to take Honor Guards instead of terminators. The advantages I can see Honor Guard having is that they can be taken for less than 200 pts and that hay have power armor allowing them to fill a Land Raider or unlock more razorbacks to the army.

 

Calgar and Khan in a LR with one Honor Guard, and two additional three man squads of Honor Guards in Razorbacks with a command squad on bikes for some portable cover saves comes to mind…

[Captain Idaho]

Well that sort of thing would be what I cover in the article. Basically, you wouldn't take Honour Guard to go head to head with an enemy elite death-star or uber unit, in a similar way you wouldn't use 5 Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators to assault a 30 strong Ork Boyz squad.

 

Anyways. Great stuff guys, I'll be sure to cover as much of the varied alternative approachs to Honour Guard usage as I can.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'd definitely like to read it.

[Bannus]

I'd definitely look forward to reading it.

[Validar]

I am working a bit on an honour guard myself, even trying to make up some rules that'd help them along rulewise (I know this is the wrong board for that; It is mainly about adding some characters to the squad, apothecary, techmarine, lexicanum, etc.)

 

Reading all this with great interrest, keep writing!

[Captain Idaho]

Thanks for the interest everyone!

[Crimson Templar]

Captain Idaho - I am very excited that you are going ahead with this project. I just started painting my honour guard today, after having owned them for a couple of years and never using them.

[VoteForPedro]

Looking forward to this, I use Pedro quite a bit and never have much luck using Honor Guard squads. I must confess to have wished that Pedro was a Captain not a Chapter Master so I could take a standard Command Squad!

[Jaigo]

I am curious if HG would work well in a list with a CM, or even Calgar, and have a Vanguard vet squad along with Shrike,

the fleet rule would really help.

Though it is not an cheap option.

[alex567]

Looking forward to it!

[Captain Idaho]

Glad everyone is anticipating my master piece! :D

 

As everyone has probably noticed, I'm still awaiting the 6th edition rules to finalise my series of opinion dressed as fact in relation to using Honour Guard.

[Lysere]

I don't know if anyone has brought it up but the auxiliary grenade launcher can be a pretty fun piece of equipment. I know it might be a bit pricey, but when you can fire it and your bolter (which they all have) you can get some pretty solid firepower. Have yet to try it but I have a 5 man hg with a somewhat fluffy focus and 2 of them have the grenade launcher for some extra shooting firepower.

 

You could also throw them in a drop pod with Lysander and get a pretty scary alpha strike unit. Obviously you would need to support them well or they'd just die the next turn but 10 bolters with re-roll and 10 frag or krak grenades could do some serious damage. And you still have an array of power weapons for the next turn. Or drop one to two guys and put a Libby in there with force dome to give them an extra save.

 

Mainly just throwing out a few ideas though.

[DarkGuard]

The one issue I see with that is that if you're firing your bolter you're not charging, which is the Honour Guard's main focus. And if you start throwing grenades around on the charge there's a chance the people you're charging will disappear, resulting in a failed charge, or maybe making your Chapter Master have to charge the nearest goon (nearest to nearest) instead of being able to charge the power weapon. Most of the time I'm content with just my bolt pistols before the charge, because most of their damage comes from combat.

[Captain Idaho]

It's best for a Drop Pod army I'm thinking. It's the angle I am going for anyway. ;)