Steel Wings - Fourth attempt. New stuff added!

[Aqui]

Another double post :P

 

I've updated the second post to reflect ideas suggested/mulled over the last week. Still a fair way to go, but I honestly think that this is the best version of the Steel Wings (and indeed any of my DIY's), that I have done so far.

 

Comments etc are as ever welcome :P

[Dosjetka]

Oh! A new IA by Aquilanus! Definitely something I'll read soon :D

 

Ludovic

[Aqui]

Oh! A new IA by Aquilanus! Definitely something I'll read soon ;)

 

Ludovic

 

Hopefully this attempt is better than the other versions :lol:

 

I've added a few bits, and I know I should add more, but it's been a long day <_<

 

Any C+C? :ermm:

[Aqui]

Having had a flash of inspiration today, I've added a fair bit more about the Steel Wings and their involvement in the (mis)fortunes in an other. This will be reflected in another thread I have at some point today ;)

 

C+C welcome :tu:

[Machine God]

@Aquilanus - I read your story between the Steel Wing and the Bahltimyr Raiders.

 

So the Battle of Ghiberti is not well known within the ranks of the Steel Wings.

[Aqui]

@Aquilanus - I read your story between the Steel Wing and the Bahltimyr Raiders.

 

So the Battle of Ghiberti is not well known within the ranks of the Steel Wings.

 

Exactly.. It's set sometime before, and whilst there will be survivors (Hubros being one), the newer recruits won't know of it. Even a lot of the survivors who were there won't know specifics, if anything the truth has been...changed. That the Rayvens betrayed them and were left planet side. The actual truth is much different. The Rayvens were Loyal to the Emperor at the time, but were desperate to claim their victory to prove their worth to their parent Chapter (Raven Guard). Their own actions, in the end, proved the Raven Guards' point. That they were unstable and unworthy to carry the Geneseed of Corvus Corax.

 

It's going to be an event that leaves a bad mark on their honour, and something that the Reavers are hell bound to extract revenge for.

[Aqui]

Talk about threadomancy! ;)

 

I've been thinking about all of my IA's and I honestly think that it's way past time that I got at least one completed.

 

I've re-read what I have and whilst I'm okay with it generally, I honestly feel that there is still something missing. I've thought about their organisation, and I'm seriously considering having them adopt a Clan based structure much like their Parent Chapter. For that I would have Hubros and any other characters I've written about in my story about them be in one Clan (one that effectively has the "Iron Wing" element - the others would have other ideas, although I'm not sure what...yet), and then write about the others generally in this IA. Is this an idea that appeals or has merit? I'm okay with them being Codex adherent, but I'd go the extra mile and create ten or so Clans if it was justified. Any thoughts?

 

I still have a few details to add in from what I've "established" in the aforementioned story, but I'll do that later today. I suppose this post is mainly to kick my backside into getting motivated again :lol:

[Demus Ragnok]

I decided that my Iron Hands successor uses a mix of codex and clan structure. All recruits come into the chapter in a common pool. Neophytes serve in the tenth thru sixth companies as per the codex. Once initiates are well rounded in the ways of war they are chosen to serve in one of the battle companies. How the company assignments are made I haven't decided yet. Anyway, my chapter has five battle companies that mirror the clan companies, each one unique and each with its own veteran units rather than all vets being assigned to the first company and then attached to other companies per deployment. Edited January 4, 2013 by Demus Ragnok

[Aqui]

Thanks for the reply :P

 

I was considering what you had mentioned about there being a "central pool" for recruits, but I wanted my Chapter of insular Marines to be even more insular and each Clan/Company to keep to themselves.

 

Since my last post, I've been thinking about having an organisation that is a mix of Iron Hand and Space Wolves - i.e. all Clans are based on the same planet and are all located within on Fortress, but each Clan has their own "space" or territory and that they rarely intermingle. Recruitment is made specifically for their Clan. Whilst they are effectively independent, there might be circumstances that might require a fighting force made up of more than one Clan. That way, I could have each Clan take on a different "flavour", but be able to use units from more than one Clan in my actual army ^_^

 

I'm quite a buzz with an idea that (literally) popped into my head. Definitely not going to sleep now!

[Ecritter]

It works but the big question you'll have to answer is .... why. Always put a why when you do something different.

 

Oh, and 5 independent companies with vets, reserves and scouts .... sounds very familiar.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ecritter

[Aqui]

It works but the big question you'll have to answer is .... why. Always put a why when you do something different.

 

Long time no see Ecritter :P

 

Good point. I suppose why might be down to the fact that the population of Petracco are scattered, and are rarely willing to deal with others. If my Chapter were to try to mix recruits from different settlements as I had previously envisioned, there would be a reluctance, if not down right refusal to work together. Simplest answer - don't mix them. I had also envisioned having each Clan having an "aspect" or "flavour" attached to them. What that might be, I honestly don't know yet.

 

It's not concrete changing the organisation from Codex to IH/SW style, but I thought I'd work a few details out and see if I can come up with something worthwhile.

[Ecritter]

Recruits are chosen from the best warriors among humanity. Naturally this makes death and feral worlds prized recruitment grounds, as such harsh and primal conditions produce the best warriors. However hive worlds are considered the ideal source of potential recruits, the populace of the lower levels composed of some of the most murderous scum in the human Imperium. Whole gangs of hive scum are sometimes hunted down and captured for recruitment. Among the most valued traits in a recruit are aggression and psychotic-level killer instinct.

 

To me, that sounds like all recruits are asocial, if not completely antisocial, at best. I don't see any of them willing to work together before being 'taken' as recruits. I think the Conditioning Process takes care of all that. So I don't see that as being a good reason.

 

I know this is something cool and something you want, so how about this:

 

- Each of the 5 companies are geographically separated and recruit from the region they're in. (need a good geo reason for this)

- Conditioning doesn't get rid of everything, so over many years of being apart and recruiting from different pools .. the Chapter has basically developed as 5 mini-Chapters (kinka like I did with the Sons)

- I think that will work for you.

[Machine God]

@Aquilanus - So are the Steel Wings still doing the flying about thing?

 

If so they most surely would come into contact with the other fortresses unless it was a Very big planet.

 

Maybe loads of volcanic vents under the seas and volcanic island chains that created turbulent winds and thermals that separated each fortress civilisation, thus making interfacing of the various fortresses difficult at best?

 

How about this for your floating/flying Fortress-Monastery a gothic styled version of the Cloud Base from Captain Scarlet?

Edited January 4, 2013 by Scion of Ferrus

[Aqui]

It's been a while! (yet again)

 

Having had a few things happen with my actual Steel Wing army, I thought that once again I should try to progress with their fluff.  How successful I am with this remains to be seen...

 

Scion of Ferrus:  Sorry for not replying sooner.  You have made some valid points and something I'm pondering at the moment.  I'm not sure whether to have a static Fortress Monastery, or whether to have something similar to what you've mentioned, although something more akin to the Avengers than Captain Scarlett (although of course it can be argued that the Cloud base heavily influenced the Avengers' own )

 

 

In any case, I've made an adjustment to this section of the fluff.  What do you all think?

 

The call to Petracco

Whilst the citizens of Petracco assumed that they had been abandoned, their pleas for help had not fallen upon deaf ears. The situation report had been mused over, considered and passed along many sections of the Administratum. Bureaucracy had pushed a resolution to the planets' ultimate fate to history. However, after many years, it finally came to light again, and a small contingent of Iron Hands lead by Veteran Sergeant Nishrai were asked to investigate. The Clan council had nearly rejected the request outright, feeling that the fate of that world should be decided by others. But after seeing the natural resources that the planet had been stripped of, it was decided to investigate further to see if that world still had anything left to offer. The landing party had, upon arrival in the Thunderhawk, been mildly amused by the rival factions squabbling, but were impressed that they put aside their differences to attack them. Once their intentions were known, a full accounting of the Petracco's history was heard. After seeing the world, one that revered technology in a way reminiscent of the Omnisiah, Nishrai advised the Clan leaders, that should a new successor Chapter be made, that it should be based here.  His words did not fall upon deaf ears, and that it was on the Tenth Founding, the Steel Wings were born, with Nishrai and a select few as the Training Cadre and commanding officers.

 

There was however, an underlying reason for selecting Nishrai to be the Chapters' first Master.  For many years Nishrai was the most vocal of a number of Marines who felt strongly about the extent the Iron Hands are going to to purge all weakness from themselves.  Whilst those of a similar view point agreed that bionics were useful in making themselves stronger, they also felt that the Chapter at large was rejecting the most important part of their heritage - their gene legacy.  Those who felt this way had petitioned many times to the Council to be heard, but were ignored.  Nishrai himself had been passed over for promotion to many times simply because of his beliefs. 

 

Once the Marines had formally arrived on Petracco, an assembly was called, during which it was established that the Steel Wings would follow what they considered to be the "true" path their Primarch had in mind for them.

 

 

 

I don't think I should add too much more as I want to step away from this being all about Nishrai, but his views did make a significant mark upon the Chapter (and as a Dreadnought still has considerable influence) and therefore should have something of note in the IA.

 

Comments etc as usual are welcome

[Octavulg]

Raised as a Chapter of the Tenth Founding, the Steel Wings come from the world known as Petracco, in Sigmentuum [insert name]. The world has been a member of the Imperium for Millennia, being previously a world valued for it's Ore and other resources. Over time, those resources were exhausted, resulting in the Scions of Mars to leave.

Aquilanus, you normally spell and gramm just fine. So what the hell is this? Sigmentuum? "being previously a world"? "Resulting in the Scions of Mars to leave"? You sound like an unctuous bazaar merchant.

The mining of those resources caused great amounts of pollution, the Natives having to live high in settlements built into the very rock of Mountain ranges.

Capitalize proper nouns. Ore, millenia, scions, natives, mountain, and hundreds are not proper nouns.

 

Old Petracco Stuff:

After seeing the world, one that revered technology in a way reminiscent of the Omnisiah, the commanding officer of the Party, Nishrai advised the Clan leaders, that should a new successor Chapter be made, that it should be based here. They agreed, and that it was on the Tenth Founding, the Steel Wings were born, with Nishrai and a select few as the Training Cadre and commanding officers.

I'd dial it back to being a bit less authoritative - after all, we're not really sure who picks home worlds.

 

New Petracco Stuff:

There was however, an underlying reason for selecting Nishrai to be the Chapters' first Master. For many years Nishrai was the most vocal of a number of Marines who felt strongly about the extent the Iron Hands are going to to purge all weakness from themselves. Whilst those of a similar view point agreed that bionics were useful in making themselves stronger, they also felt that the Chapter at large was rejecting the most important part of their heritage - their gene legacy. Those who felt this way had petitioned many times to the Council to be heard, but were ignored. Nishrai himself had been passed over for promotion to many times simply because of his beliefs.

Which is why, of course, he was the first choice to lead a new chapter. Because malcontents people don't respect are always popular.

Once the Marines had formally arrived on Petracco, an assembly was called, during which it was established that the Steel Wings would follow what they considered to be the "true" path their Primarch had in mind for them.

And all the other Marines went along with this, because...

 

Seriously. Malcontent gets chapter doesn't work as an idea for many very good reasons.

The Steel Wings were at their Founding a Codex adherent Chapter, and continue to be mainly so to this day.

Why? The Iron Hands aren't.

However, over time, the formation of the Second Company into what is known as the Iron Wing was deemed necessary to take advantage of the flying and mechanical skills of many Marines. Whilst all Marines have above basic knowledge on repairing and constructing equipment, such as the Bolter, there are some whose skills are legendary. Those who show such skill are entered into the Second Company. Competition for consideration of entry is fierce, and the Iron Wing are shown as an example to the Chapter - a spiritual and physical union of devotion to both the Emperor and the Omnisiah. Members of the Iron Wing are always taken to a battle, for many a battle has been won due to their bravery and inspirational piloting.

The Ironwing is a DA armored company.

Whilst the Steel Wings realised that they had in effect destroyed their Cousinly Chapter, they rationalised that the Bahltimyr Rayvens were not to be trusted due to their origins. After receiving and processing the official report, the High Lords of Terra have given no official Edict on the matter and was consigned to history.

This should all be a sidebar. Though, frankly, it's not very interesting as-is. It matters to the Ravens, not to the Wings.

 

Also, if you continue spelling Ravens with a "y", I will do something unpleasant to you.

These creatures have been compared to beasts of Terran legend, carried on the thermal currents, spewing great jets of foul liquids, their physiology adapted to absorbing massive amounts of pollutants in the lower atmosphere of the planet. Candidates are also selected because of their aptitude with machinery. Whilst some of the erstwhile candidates prove themselves in the air, the machines they fly allow others to prove their worth as well.

Ditch the dragons.

 

* * *

 

What are you looking for out of the chapter? What themes do you want to explore? Etc.

[Aqui]

 

Raised as a Chapter of the Tenth Founding, the Steel Wings come from the world known as Petracco, in Sigmentuum [insert name]. The world has been a member of the Imperium for Millennia, being previously a world valued for it's Ore and other resources. Over time, those resources were exhausted, resulting in the Scions of Mars to leave.

Aquilanus, you normally spell and gramm just fine. So what the hell is this? Sigmentuum? "being previously a world"? "Resulting in the Scions of Mars to leave"? You sound like an unctuous bazaar merchant.

 

The mining of those resources caused great amounts of pollution, the Natives having to live high in settlements built into the very rock of Mountain ranges.

Capitalize proper nouns. Ore, millenia, scions, natives, mountain, and hundreds are not proper nouns.

 

Old Petracco Stuff:

>After seeing the world, one that revered technology in a way reminiscent of the Omnisiah, the commanding officer of the Party, Nishrai advised the Clan leaders, that should a new successor Chapter be made, that it should be based here. They agreed, and that it was on the Tenth Founding, the Steel Wings were born, with Nishrai and a select few as the Training Cadre and commanding officers.

I'd dial it back to being a bit less authoritative - after all, we're not really sure who picks home worlds.

 

New Petracco Stuff:

There was however, an underlying reason for selecting Nishrai to be the Chapters' first Master. For many years Nishrai was the most vocal of a number of Marines who felt strongly about the extent the Iron Hands are going to to purge all weakness from themselves. Whilst those of a similar view point agreed that bionics were useful in making themselves stronger, they also felt that the Chapter at large was rejecting the most important part of their heritage - their gene legacy. Those who felt this way had petitioned many times to the Council to be heard, but were ignored. Nishrai himself had been passed over for promotion to many times simply because of his beliefs.

Which is why, of course, he was the first choice to lead a new chapter. Because malcontents people don't respect are always popular.

Once the Marines had formally arrived on Petracco, an assembly was called, during which it was established that the Steel Wings would follow what they considered to be the "true" path their Primarch had in mind for them.

And all the other Marines went along with this, because...

 

Seriously. Malcontent gets chapter doesn't work as an idea for many very good reasons.

The Steel Wings were at their Founding a Codex adherent Chapter, and continue to be mainly so to this day.

Why? The Iron Hands aren't.

However, over time, the formation of the Second Company into what is known as the Iron Wing was deemed necessary to take advantage of the flying and mechanical skills of many Marines. Whilst all Marines have above basic knowledge on repairing and constructing equipment, such as the Bolter, there are some whose skills are legendary. Those who show such skill are entered into the Second Company. Competition for consideration of entry is fierce, and the Iron Wing are shown as an example to the Chapter - a spiritual and physical union of devotion to both the Emperor and the Omnisiah. Members of the Iron Wing are always taken to a battle, for many a battle has been won due to their bravery and inspirational piloting.

The Ironwing is a DA armored company.

Whilst the Steel Wings realised that they had in effect destroyed their Cousinly Chapter, they rationalised that the Bahltimyr Rayvens were not to be trusted due to their origins. After receiving and processing the official report, the High Lords of Terra have given no official Edict on the matter and was consigned to history.

This should all be a sidebar. Though, frankly, it's not very interesting as-is. It matters to the Ravens, not to the Wings.

 

Also, if you continue spelling Ravens with a "y", I will do something unpleasant to you.

These creatures have been compared to beasts of Terran legend, carried on the thermal currents, spewing great jets of foul liquids, their physiology adapted to absorbing massive amounts of pollutants in the lower atmosphere of the planet. Candidates are also selected because of their aptitude with machinery. Whilst some of the erstwhile candidates prove themselves in the air, the machines they fly allow others to prove their worth as well.

Ditch the dragons.

 

* * *

 

What are you looking for out of the chapter? What themes do you want to explore? Etc.

 

 

 

Not sure if what follows makes any sense and hopefully isn't snippy or defensive, but I'm in a lot of pain at the moment and not quite in the right frame of mind to be...logical or objecive (painkillers have rather fogged what little sense I have at the moment)  I realise what you've posted is to try to help, but as you might understand, more than a few nerves are a little raw at the moment :blink:

 

I would have answered each point individually, but with the upgrade, I've had difficulty in retaining multiple quotes without it getting...fractured.

 

First point - "Sigmentuum" is a spelling mistake, one that I had noticed before, but failed to pick up again   The structure of the other sentence is rather naff admittedly, but for the moment the gist is (slightly) more important to me than the wording.  Same with the capitalisation.  It will be addressed however

 

Regarding Nishrai's dubious promotion - It does seem wrong to "promote" someone who is a malcontent, but I wanted the Steel Wings to question their Parent Chapters ideals, and had figured that their leader would be the one who "started" it.  I suppose I could get Nishrai to be one who toes the line, until he becomes Chapter Master and then something makes him think different.  Not sure how that transition would occur though.  The others would follow because they have similar views.  I had brought the matter up in the Iron Hands thread in Index Astartes, and had been of the understanding that because of the Sons of Medusa affair (which admittedly happens after the Steel Wings formation), the Iron Hands would eject those who thought differently.  How "realistic" my example would be will depend on how convincingly I can write it...

 

The Clan structure is in part because of the Medusan mindset.  I could have just had them adopt a similar structure, but then that would mean that the 'Wings would just be Iron Hands in different colours.  I'd have to justify their change of structure I admit, but then because of the way the Petraccan's are literally split, I suppose I could leave it as it is.  Not sure at the moment - I could be sold on either way.  Having said that there are other Chapters who don't follow their Parents organisation.  Admittedly I can't think of any at present...

 

Iron Wing - I know feth all about the Dark Angels until recently (and even now not that much) and had come up with the name over twenty years ago when I first came up with them (back when they were one of the missing Legions and had "Aquilanus" who had literal Steel Wings,  as their Primarch but I digress...).  So that was a pure coincidence.  I might rename the Second Company, I might not.

 

The bit about the Bahltimyr Rayvens would most likely have been a side bar, but I was never much of an expert in the use of BBcode before the upgrade.  I didn't want to mess with the format just yet in case it went wrong.  And the "y" stays

 

The "Dragons" aren't actually as such (as in they aren't what we'd associate as Dragons), I don't have a description in my own mind yet, much less written or typed, except they're big, nasty, ugly and view the humans as food, but I wanted a non-human menace that harry the various Hives that in part force the Petraccans to create something that flies to keep said nasties away from their homes.

 

Themes that I want to explore:

 

Overall theme for Planet - "Renaissance" style World.  Clunky machinery that barely works at the start.  Gets better over time (although not to an extent that the Ad Mech blow a gasket over).  World is fethed up because of the vast amounts of mining, refining etc that the Ad Mech had seen fit to do.  Natives were little more than slaves when under their control - then with no warning whatsoever, they leave, leaving the natives with nothing.  This leaves them with a bitter taste in their mouth and the remnants of a world that they can't repair or leave.  Rumours of a "perfect unpolluted area of land" abound by all and sundry, but  are a fabricated lie to give the peoples hope.

 

Suspicion - Ad Mech abandoned them, the Imperium could give a rat's arse (although the plea for help was lost in the vast bureaucracy for 4-800 years).  The natives are suspicious of each other - the fliers gives each Hive a chance to try to gain more space by invading/harrying others.  Each Hive wants to claim the untouched land before the others.  Added to this, when the Iron Hands arrive, they unite for the first time that their history tells them.  The Steel Wings are allied to the Ad Mech, but not the extent of the IH themselves.  They retain this partnership because it obviously has its advantages, but also it allow them to keep any eye on them, "Keep your friends close...etc")  Because of the Petraccan mindset, they are suspicious of everyone (hence the reason they had issues with the Rayvens - who also distrust everyone, but even more so)

 

Again, apologies if there is any...snippiness in there I have read it a couple of times to weed anything out

Edited February 13, 2013 by Aquilanus

[Octavulg]

Snippiness is entertaining, Aquilanus, as long as it's clever. And right.

 

First point - "Sigmentuum" is a spelling mistake, one that I had noticed before, but failed to pick up again dry.png The structure of the other sentence is rather naff admittedly, but for the moment the gist is (slightly) more important to me than the wording. Same with the capitalisation. It will be addressed however smile.png

 

I'm sure it will be addressed. It's just weird to me that this has spelling mistakes when your posts rarely do. Hell, your hopped-up-on-painkillers reply had fewer mistakes.

 

Just think of it as me thinking you have standards.

 

Regarding Nishrai's dubious promotion - It does seem wrong to "promote" someone who is a malcontent, but I wanted the Steel Wings to question their Parent Chapters ideals, and had figured that their leader would be the one who "started" it. I suppose I could get Nishrai to be one who toes the line, until he becomes Chapter Master and then something makes him think different. Not sure how that transition would occur though. The others would follow because they have similar views. I had brought the matter up in the Iron Hands thread in Index Astartes, and had been of the understanding that because of the Sons of Medusa affair (which admittedly happens after the Steel Wings formation), the Iron Hands would eject those who thought differently. How "realistic" my example would be will depend on how convincingly I can write it...

 

Honestly, the Sons of Medusa thing is kind of bad writing (those Iron Hands are so notoriously tolerant of differences of opinion), and it even goes on at length about how this was an exception and nobody liked it.

 

What aspect of the ideals do you want to be questioned, exactly? What form do you want that questioning to take?

 

To a certain extent, you don't need to explain a practice so long as it's logical and it's well integrated into the IA.

 

The Clan structure is in part because of the Medusan mindset. I could have just had them adopt a similar structure, but then that would mean that the 'Wings would just be Iron Hands in different colours. I'd have to justify their change of structure I admit, but then because of the way the Petraccan's are literally split, I suppose I could leave it as it is. Not sure at the moment - I could be sold on either way. Having said that there are other Chapters who don't follow their Parents organisation. Admittedly I can't think of any at present...

 

Black Templars?

 

I've always seen it as likely there are two ways the Iron Hands select a training cadre - they compete, and the best Clan provides it. Or they choose representatives from several or all clans.

 

If you do the first, you're OK. But I'd still expect relatively self-sufficient companies, for example.

 

Iron Wing - I know feth all about the Dark Angels until recently (and even now not that much) and had come up with the name over twenty years ago when I first came up with them (back when they were one of the missing Legions and had "Aquilanus" who had literal Steel Wings, as their Primarch but I digress...). So that was a pure coincidence. I might rename the Second Company, I might not.

 

It's also a little weird to have Iron Wings in the Steel Wings. Iron's usually seen as weaker than steel...

 

The bit about the Bahltimyr Rayvens would most likely have been a side bar, but I was never much of an expert in the use of BBcode before the upgrade. I didn't want to mess with the format just yet in case it went wrong. And the "y" stays tongue.png

 

Spelling it with a Y makes you look like an idiotic teenager who's trying to get the skinny Goth chick at high school to like him. You're a bad and terrible person. I hope your painkillers turn into Chiclets.

 

The "Dragons" aren't actually as such (as in they aren't what we'd associate as Dragons), I don't have a description in my own mind yet, much less written or typed, except they're big, nasty, ugly and view the humans as food, but I wanted a non-human menace that harry the various Hives that in part force the Petraccans to create something that flies to keep said nasties away from their homes.[/quot]

 

Then don't call them "Draco" anything.

 

Also, why would you want to fight flying creatures in the air? Flying creatures are usually quite vulnerable on the ground. Nets and axes will do the job better than a plane will.

 

Regarding the themes you mention:

 

Keep in mind that the Iron Hands are already psychotically suspicious and standoffish.

 

I don't know that either theme's entirely coming across as yet. Also, how do the initiates handle it when they find out there's no promised land?

[Aqui]

Snippiness is entertaining, Aquilanus, as long as it's clever. And right.

 

First point - "Sigmentuum" is a spelling mistake, one that I had noticed before, but failed to pick up again dry.png The structure of the other sentence is rather naff admittedly, but for the moment the gist is (slightly) more important to me than the wording. Same with the capitalisation. It will be addressed however smile.png

I'm sure it will be addressed. It's just weird to me that this has spelling mistakes when your posts rarely do. Hell, your hopped-up-on-painkillers reply had fewer mistakes.

 

Just think of it as me thinking you have standards.

 

Regarding Nishrai's dubious promotion - It does seem wrong to "promote" someone who is a malcontent, but I wanted the Steel Wings to question their Parent Chapters ideals, and had figured that their leader would be the one who "started" it. I suppose I could get Nishrai to be one who toes the line, until he becomes Chapter Master and then something makes him think different. Not sure how that transition would occur though. The others would follow because they have similar views. I had brought the matter up in the Iron Hands thread in Index Astartes, and had been of the understanding that because of the Sons of Medusa affair (which admittedly happens after the Steel Wings formation), the Iron Hands would eject those who thought differently. How "realistic" my example would be will depend on how convincingly I can write it...

Honestly, the Sons of Medusa thing is kind of bad writing (those Iron Hands are so notoriously tolerant of differences of opinion), and it even goes on at length about how this was an exception and nobody liked it.

 

What aspect of the ideals do you want to be questioned, exactly? What form do you want that questioning to take?

 

To a certain extent, you don't need to explain a practice so long as it's logical and it's well integrated into the IA.

 

The Clan structure is in part because of the Medusan mindset. I could have just had them adopt a similar structure, but then that would mean that the 'Wings would just be Iron Hands in different colours. I'd have to justify their change of structure I admit, but then because of the way the Petraccan's are literally split, I suppose I could leave it as it is. Not sure at the moment - I could be sold on either way. Having said that there are other Chapters who don't follow their Parents organisation. Admittedly I can't think of any at present...

Black Templars?

 

I've always seen it as likely there are two ways the Iron Hands select a training cadre - they compete, and the best Clan provides it. Or they choose representatives from several or all clans.

 

If you do the first, you're OK. But I'd still expect relatively self-sufficient companies, for example.

 

Iron Wing - I know feth all about the Dark Angels until recently (and even now not that much) and had come up with the name over twenty years ago when I first came up with them (back when they were one of the missing Legions and had "Aquilanus" who had literal Steel Wings, as their Primarch but I digress...). So that was a pure coincidence. I might rename the Second Company, I might not.

It's also a little weird to have Iron Wings in the Steel Wings. Iron's usually seen as weaker than steel...

 

The bit about the Bahltimyr Rayvens would most likely have been a side bar, but I was never much of an expert in the use of BBcode before the upgrade. I didn't want to mess with the format just yet in case it went wrong. And the "y" stays tongue.png

Spelling it with a Y makes you look like an idiotic teenager who's trying to get the skinny Goth chick at high school to like him. You're a bad and terrible person. I hope your painkillers turn into Chiclets.

 

The "Dragons" aren't actually as such (as in they aren't what we'd associate as Dragons), I don't have a description in my own mind yet, much less written or typed, except they're big, nasty, ugly and view the humans as food, but I wanted a non-human menace that harry the various Hives that in part force the Petraccans to create something that flies to keep said nasties away from their homes.[/quot]

 

Then don't call them "Draco" anything.

 

Also, why would you want to fight flying creatures in the air? Flying creatures are usually quite vulnerable on the ground. Nets and axes will do the job better than a plane will.

 

Regarding the themes you mention:

 

Keep in mind that the Iron Hands are already psychotically suspicious and standoffish.

 

I don't know that either theme's entirely coming across as yet. Also, how do the initiates handle it when they find out there's no promised land?

 

Standards?  That was your first mistake

 

Regarding the "ideals" - I want the Steel Wings to come to the conclusion that the Iron Hands are wrong.  Abandoning the flesh in favour of the Machine (capitals because I mean it to encapsulate the Omnissiah and what that means) and distancing themselves from their genetic legacy (which to them is their true strength) to them is wrong.  "Augmentation" and replacing broken body parts when it is needed is fine and dandy.  But they feel that Ferrus Manus' teachings are being deliberately miss-taught.  I had thought of the Chapter finding something that brings them to that conclusion, but then I figured that the Iron Hands themselves would demand such an artifact (or document etc).  Perhaps they do find something, something that then puts them at odds with their "parent"?

 

Regarding how a training cadre is selected - the question I asked in the IH topic implies that it would be more likely to take from across the clans (at least if Nishrai was a malcontent - any and all similar thinking Marines would be sent with him).  I'll have to think about this in more detail, but I suppose it would be easier to think about that once I have other things worked out first.

 

Iron Wing - I suppose I could find a more suitable name for it.  As for spelling Ravens with a y and the threat of chicklets, a far more effective (and topical, at least in the UK) would be to wish anything with beef in it has horse in instead   Digressing again...

 

I have no intention of using "Draco" or anything related.  That word reminds me of either an Inquisitor, or a jumped up little wizard...   No. Just, No.  But I had figured (but fail to mention in the draft ) that there is a distinct lack of livestock in the Hives, so whilst the creatures hunt humans, they are themselves are hunted once the technology is reliable enough.  Dangerous to undertake, but a large slab of meat is temptation enough if you're hungry.

 

Thus far the natives (not initiates) haven't found out there is no "promised land".  Whilst the vehicles are able to fly a fair distance, lack of range has made it impossible to survey the entire planet (partially because the powers that be deliberately suppress the technology that would solve the problem to perpetrate the lie ), and the natural suspicion of the other Hives amongst those who know no different) means that they wouldn't share this information, even if it were true.

 

I may have to strip everything out and redo it.  I can see what I want, but I can't get it down on the screen :(  Frustrating as I honestly thought I was a lot closer this time...

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Regarding the "ideals" - I want the Steel Wings to come to the conclusion that the Iron Hands are wrong. Abandoning the flesh in favour of the Machine (capitals because I mean it to encapsulate the Omnissiah and what that means) and distancing themselves from their genetic legacy (which to them is their true strength) to them is wrong. "Augmentation" and replacing broken body parts when it is needed is fine and dandy. But they feel that Ferrus Manus' teachings are being deliberately miss-taught. I had thought of the Chapter finding something that brings them to that conclusion, but then I figured that the Iron Hands themselves would demand such an artifact (or document etc). Perhaps they do find something, something that then puts them at odds with their "parent"?

Well, there's the bit where Ferrus didn't replace his own flesh with bionics. There was a discussion about this recently, actually. I just can't remember where.

 

I don't know that you need an explanation, so much as a well-thought through outcome.

Regarding how a training cadre is selected - the question I asked in the IH topic implies that it would be more likely to take from across the clans (at least if Nishrai was a malcontent - any and all similar thinking Marines would be sent with him). I'll have to think about this in more detail, but I suppose it would be easier to think about that once I have other things worked out first.

Getting to found a new Chapter is an honorable and noble occasion, though. Using it as a dumping ground for malcontents seems weird.

 

Plus, like I said - the Iron Hands are intolerant dicks...except apparently when it comes to the very core of their beliefs, when they're polite and agree to get along. Seems a bit inconsistent, IMO.

I have no intention of using "Draco" or anything related. That word reminds me of either an Inquisitor, or a jumped up little wizard... dry.png No. Just, No. But I had figured (but fail to mention in the draft dry.png ) that there is a distinct lack of livestock in the Hives, so whilst the creatures hunt humans, they are themselves are hunted once the technology is reliable enough. Dangerous to undertake, but a large slab of meat is temptation enough if you're hungry.

You called them Draco Majoris...

Thus far the natives (not initiates) haven't found out there is no "promised land". Whilst the vehicles are able to fly a fair distance, lack of range has made it impossible to survey the entire planet (partially because the powers that be deliberately suppress the technology that would solve the problem to perpetrate the lie ), and the natural suspicion of the other Hives amongst those who know no different) means that they wouldn't share this information, even if it were true.

Yeeeees. But how do the INITIATES handle finding that out? Seems like it might be a pretty big deal to them.

 

And has the belief permeated the chapter at all?

I may have to strip everything out and redo it. I can see what I want, but I can't get it down on the screen Frustrating as I honestly thought I was a lot closer this time...

Outlines, dear boy. Outlines. They're magical things.

[Aqui]

 

Regarding the "ideals" - I want the Steel Wings to come to the conclusion that the Iron Hands are wrong. Abandoning the flesh in favour of the Machine (capitals because I mean it to encapsulate the Omnissiah and what that means) and distancing themselves from their genetic legacy (which to them is their true strength) to them is wrong. "Augmentation" and replacing broken body parts when it is needed is fine and dandy. But they feel that Ferrus Manus' teachings are being deliberately miss-taught. I had thought of the Chapter finding something that brings them to that conclusion, but then I figured that the Iron Hands themselves would demand such an artifact (or document etc). Perhaps they do find something, something that then puts them at odds with their "parent"?

Well, there's the bit where Ferrus didn't replace his own flesh with bionics. There was a discussion about this recently, actually. I just can't remember where.

 

I don't know that you need an explanation, so much as a well-thought through outcome.

>>Regarding how a training cadre is selected - the question I asked in the IH topic implies that it would be more likely to take from across the clans (at least if Nishrai was a malcontent - any and all similar thinking Marines would be sent with him). I'll have to think about this in more detail, but I suppose it would be easier to think about that once I have other things worked out first.

Getting to found a new Chapter is an honorable and noble occasion, though. Using it as a dumping ground for malcontents seems weird.

 

Plus, like I said - the Iron Hands are intolerant dicks...except apparently when it comes to the very core of their beliefs, when they're polite and agree to get along. Seems a bit inconsistent, IMO.

I have no intention of using "Draco" or anything related. That word reminds me of either an Inquisitor, or a jumped up little wizard... dry.png No. Just, No. But I had figured (but fail to mention in the draft dry.png ) that there is a distinct lack of livestock in the Hives, so whilst the creatures hunt humans, they are themselves are hunted once the technology is reliable enough. Dangerous to undertake, but a large slab of meat is temptation enough if you're hungry.

You called them Draco Majoris...

Thus far the natives (not initiates) haven't found out there is no "promised land". Whilst the vehicles are able to fly a fair distance, lack of range has made it impossible to survey the entire planet (partially because the powers that be deliberately suppress the technology that would solve the problem to perpetrate the lie ), and the natural suspicion of the other Hives amongst those who know no different) means that they wouldn't share this information, even if it were true.

Yeeeees. But how do the INITIATES handle finding that out? Seems like it might be a pretty big deal to them.

 

And has the belief permeated the chapter at all?

I may have to strip everything out and redo it. I can see what I want, but I can't get it down on the screen Frustrating as I honestly thought I was a lot closer this time...

Outlines, dear boy. Outlines. They're magical things.

 

 

 

I did didn't I...ugh.  That'll be purged in a bit Draco Maligna...must have been sleep deprived when I typed that

 

I hadn't considered the impact the truth would have on the initiates.  Not sure what the outcome would be to be honest.  Either it would be something else that adds to their cynicism, or perhaps it results in them realising that there truly no such thing as "paradise", that life is pants, deal with it.  Only belief in the Emperor matters?

 

Perhaps ultimately the revelation that there never was any paradise land only makes the Initiate/Marine realise that such dreams are (useless - need a better term, wasteful?  a distraction from a greater purpose?  That dreams such as that are irrelevant, and that humanity should work to ensure that humanity has a tomorrow - and that THAT should be the "dream", not a wishy washy idea like untainted land?)

 

Outlines...hmm. 

 

Edit:  Have made a few changes (i.e. about the Draco and a few typos).  It has meant that the BBCode has had to be purged as well as it wouldn't let me edit it otherwise.  Not important for now, but it'll get proper formatting eventually.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Aquilanus

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BBCode for section headings is unnecessary anyway, frankly. Makes it harder to have leftsidebars, too.

 

Anyway. Ponder. And outline, I think. But ponder for sure.