Nikea retcon

[Gree]

Nikea is the bit of the heresy that really doesn't make sense.

 

1k Sons had to stop using powers of the warp but Space Wolves didn't?

 

Oh course, the Alfather needed to maintain the capability to counter a threat from any of his sons.

 

As his executioner and leading a Legion that already recognised the threat poised by the Maleficarum, Russ both needed and could be trusted to retain a residual capability.

 

Well, I’ve seen people claim that the Wolves got special treatment in using psykers, but so far I’ve seen no evidence or any piece of fluff stating that. Meanwhile we do have statements from Collected Visions pointing out that the Emperor was adamant on that no Astartes should use psychic powers and that not even the Primarchs are allowed to use any psychic abilities they might have.

[The 13th Goat]

The Emperor was adamant on that no Astartes should use psychic powers and that not even the Primarchs are allowed to use any psychic abilities they might have.

 

Meaning Magnus had to relay on his secondary abilities, like.... being red and..... looking like a pirate?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Emperor was adamant on that no Astartes should use psychic powers and that not even the Primarchs are allowed to use any psychic abilities they might have.

 

Meaning Magnus had to relay on his secondary abilities, like.... being red and..... looking like a pirate?

 

Being a genetic superman capable of crushing men in the palm of his hand, out-thinking computers in a heartbeat, charimsa in spades and leading his armies in the Great Crusade...you know, like the other 17 Primarchs did.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

Nikea is the bit of the heresy that really doesn't make sense.

 

1k Sons had to stop using powers of the warp but Space Wolves didn't?

 

Oh course, the Alfather needed to maintain the capability to counter a threat from any of his sons.

 

As his executioner and leading a Legion that already recognised the threat poised by the Maleficarum, Russ both needed and could be trusted to retain a residual capability.

 

Well, I’ve seen people claim that the Wolves got special treatment in using psykers, but so far I’ve seen no evidence or any piece of fluff stating that. Meanwhile we do have statements from Collected Visions pointing out that the Emperor was adamant on that no Astartes should use psychic powers and that not even the Primarchs are allowed to use any psychic abilities they might have.

 

I see no reason for the continued insistance on what Collected Visions says regarding the Edict of Nikaea. Prospero Burns is the most recent relase with direct quotes of the decree set by the Emperor at Nikaea. We have the Emperor's exact words and they were the dismantling of the Librarius and Librariums. This is no longer the sweeping generalization of what was replayed in Collected Visions but a focused ban on Magnus and his Librarius programs.

[Kol Saresk]

You have to remember, one of the Wolves' own Rune Priests spoke in support of the edict. They didn't think of themselves as drawing on the warp for power.They thought that they drew from Fenris. So they didn't see themselves as the same as the other Librarians. So in their own way, they were traitors too, albeit ignorant traitors.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

You have to remember, one of the Wolves' own Rune Priests spoke in support of the edict. They didn't think of themselves as drawing on the warp for power.They thought that they drew from Fenris. So they didn't see themselves as the same as the other Librarians. So in their own way, they were traitors too, albeit ignorant traitors.

 

That's because they weren't Librarians, but Rune Priests - totally different thing - doh ^_^

 

Next thing is you'll be claiming Wolf Priests are Chaplains... er or Apothercaries...

 

On a more serious note, given the augmentation of the VI with Custodes and Null Maidens for the action on Prospero, isn't is just also possible that the Alfather was quite happy to turn a political eye to the retention of a psychic capability within the VI Legion because it was outside the Librarian experiment?

[Gree]

I see no reason for the continued insistance on what Collected Visions says regarding the Edict of Nikaea.

 

Why not? We have seen nothing contradicting it.

 

Prospero Burns is the most recent relase with direct quotes of the decree set by the Emperor at Nikaea. We have the Emperor's exact words and they were the dismantling of the Librarius and Librariums. This is no longer the sweeping generalization of what was replayed in Collected Visions but a focused ban on Magnus and his Librarius programs.

 

No, that is not an explicit contradiction. We saw a proclamation, but we never saw the elaboration on it. Rulings are much more than a single line. But where are the direct quotes in Prospero Burns? Upon re-reading it I can’t find any and Kaspar Hawser is not present at the proclamation. A Thousand Sons contains a line from the Emperor, but we don’t see if the Emperor elaborates at all on it as the chapter is immediately cut off for dramatic effect.

 

Although I would note that it’s explicitly noted in Collected Visions that the Council of Nikea was intended to resolve the Librarian crisis and that the main duty of it was to prosecute Magnus and his Librarius programs.

 

The fact that no psychic powers could be employed was something that was also mentioned that was added on to the ruling.

 

Of course if you are taking the latest novel as a source then you have Russ attacking Magnus despite Horus already annhilating the loyalists as Istvaan V.

 

On a more serious note, given the augmentation of the VI with Custodes and Null Maidens for the action on Prospero, isn't is just also possible that the Alfather was quite happy to turn a political eye to the retention of a psychic capability within the VI Legion because it was outside the Librarian experiment?

 

Or perhaps the Wolves were very good at hiding their indiscretions?

[Grimtooth]

I see no reason for the continued insistance on what Collected Visions says regarding the Edict of Nikaea.

 

Why not? We have seen nothing contradicting it.

 

Prospero Burns is the most recent relase with direct quotes of the decree set by the Emperor at Nikaea. We have the Emperor's exact words and they were the dismantling of the Librarius and Librariums. This is no longer the sweeping generalization of what was replayed in Collected Visions but a focused ban on Magnus and his Librarius programs.

 

No, that is not an explicit contradiction. We saw a proclamation, but we never saw the elaboration on it. Rulings are much more than a single line. But where are the direct quotes in Prospero Burns? Upon re-reading it I can’t find any and Kaspar Hawser is not present at the proclamation. A Thousand Sons contains a line from the Emperor, but we don’t see if the Emperor elaborates at all on it as the chapter is immediately cut off for dramatic effect.

 

Although I would note that it’s explicitly noted in Collected Visions that the Council of Nikea was intended to resolve the Librarian crisis and that the main duty of it was to prosecute Magnus and his Librarius programs.

 

The fact that no psychic powers could be employed was something that was also mentioned that was added on to the ruling.

 

Of course if you are taking the latest novel as a source then you have Russ attacking Magnus despite Horus already annhilating the loyalists as Istvaan V.

 

On a more serious note, given the augmentation of the VI with Custodes and Null Maidens for the action on Prospero, isn't is just also possible that the Alfather was quite happy to turn a political eye to the retention of a psychic capability within the VI Legion because it was outside the Librarian experiment?

 

Or perhaps the Wolves were very good at hiding their indiscretions?

 

Yea, my bad it was A Thousand Sons where the Emperor proclaims his ruling and it was directly focused on the Librarius and the Librarians. This included his warning as to anyone that would disobey his order.

 

As much as people want to equate librarians to rune priests, they are not the same and were not banned under the decree. At no time were the rune priests ever a product of Magnus' librarium project and never did the SW have a Librarius.

 

Considering there is no canon, past or present, for any sanction being passed on the SW you have to take into consideration that they were exempt from the edict or they were sanctioned psykers by the Emperor.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As much as people want to equate librarians to rune priests, they are not the same and were not banned under the decree. At no time were the rune priests ever a product of Magnus' librarium project and never did the SW have a Librarius.

Well, the Storm Seers of the White Scars were banned under the Decree, and they had far more in common with the Rune Priests than the White Scars.

 

Considering there is no canon, past or present, for any sanction being passed on the SW you have to take into consideration that they were exempt from the edict or they were sanctioned psykers by the Emperor.

 

That's because all previous canon only involved the Sorcerors being outlawed, not the Librarium program, so the Legions other than the Thousand Sons weren't affected. It's only since the Collected Visions that the change has been brought in, which, by the way, has the Emperor clearly stating that "no Astartes shall use psychic abilities".

[Grimtooth]

As much as people want to equate librarians to rune priests, they are not the same and were not banned under the decree. At no time were the rune priests ever a product of Magnus' librarium project and never did the SW have a Librarius.

Well, the Storm Seers of the White Scars were banned under the Decree, and they had far more in common with the Rune Priests than the White Scars.

 

Considering there is no canon, past or present, for any sanction being passed on the SW you have to take into consideration that they were exempt from the edict or they were sanctioned psykers by the Emperor.

 

That's because all previous canon only involved the Sorcerors being outlawed, not the Librarium program, so the Legions other than the Thousand Sons weren't affected. It's only since the Collected Visions that the change has been brought in, which, by the way, has the Emperor clearly stating that "no Astartes shall use psychic abilities".

 

Storm Seers are librarians. They were established in the White Scars by Magnus' Librarius program and were under the Librarium, hence why they faced the same fate as the other librarians. The White Scar that speaks in the delegation is indeed a librarian, with the training of a librarian, and thus "tainted" by Magnus.

 

And the canon has been changed yet again in A Thousand Sons with the decree being solely focused on Librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium, ergo, anything that was influenced/tainted/touched by Magnus.

[Jim Shady]

That's because all previous canon only involved the Sorcerors being outlawed, not the Librarium program, so the Legions other than the Thousand Sons weren't affected. It's only since the Collected Visions that the change has been brought in, which, by the way, has the Emperor clearly stating that "no Astartes shall use psychic abilities".

 

They both thought they were a conduit for channeling the "magiks" from the SW/WS homeworlds of Fenris and Chogoris, via the charms etc they wore. So, in a way they were ignorant of the warp and it's reach on the galaxy. They were hypocrite's but had good intentions at heart. Shame, they seem to been manipulated by Chaos and probably, more specifically, Tzeentch.

[Gree]

Yea, my bad it was A Thousand Sons where the Emperor proclaims his ruling and it was directly focused on the Librarius and the Librarians. This included his warning as to anyone that would disobey his order.

 

Yes, and so does Collected Visions include that. But it also contains a section on which the Emperor also clarifies his intent. That does not mean that was retconned in A Thousand Sons, simply that no mention was made. Laws are more than a single word. Documents have to be drawn up, things clarified, etc, etc.

 

Considering there is no canon, past or present, for any sanction being passed on the SW you have to take into consideration that they were exempt from the edict or they were sanctioned psykers by the Emperor.

 

Well we already have the Emperor’s law as presented in Collected Visions. No psykers. Period. We have no fluff explicitly contradicting that unless you care to cite some?

 

I can pull up evidence of the Edict of Nikaea being a bit more ranging than just getting rid of the Librarius. From Flight of the Eisenstein:

 

‘Gifted.’ Dorn made the word a growl. ‘I know the kinds of “gifts” that the Sisterhood come seeking. Have you brought a mind-witch aboard my fortress, Death Guard? Does this remembrancer bear the mark of the psyker?’ He grimaced. ‘I was there at Nikaea when the Emperor himself censured the use of these warp-spawned powers for the good of the Imperium! I will not allow such forces to run unchecked among my warriors!’

‘She is no witch, lord,’ Garro retorted. ‘If anything, her gift is that she has felt the Emperor’s touch more keenly than any one of us!’ The tremor in his voice drew Qruze’s attention and the Luna Wolf came closer.”

 

A rather odd statement for Dorn to make considering that the person in question is not even an Astartes.

 

From Outcast Dead:

 

‘Golovko was a killer of psykers, a gaoler and executioner all in one. His presence within the Whispering Tower was decreed by the new strictures laid down after the great conclave on Nikaea, and Ibn Khaldun suppressed a spike of resentment at its hypocrisy. Bitterness would only cloud his perceptions, and this was a time for clarity like no other.”

 

Again, something rather odd if only the Librarians were affected. To clarified, Golovko is a normal human that operates with the Telepathica. So already we have indication that the Edict covers a bit more than just the Librarians.

 

And the canon has been changed yet again in A Thousand Sons with the decree being solely focused on Librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium, ergo, anything that was influenced/tainted/touched by Magnus.

 

No, that was already present. The "No psykers at all" was something clarified by the Emperor as well. A Thousand Sons simply did not mention it, but that does not mean it has been changed. If anything Outcast Dead has special anti-psyker agents with non-Astartes specifically as a result of the Edict, let alone non-Astartes.

 

No punishment was passed on the Wolves, and there might be some consideration to your point of view, the same is true for the opposite view. It may simply be that the Wolves were good at hiding their indiscretions.

 

But then again Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons have been contradicted by The Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost, in which the message of Magnus clearly taking place after Istvaan V and when news of Horus’s treachery spread to all, making Russ’s statements about Horus being loyal look very odd indeed, unless Russ was taking orders from a known traitor.

[Vaasaren]

I know we are all questioning ultimately why the emperor said it was the best outcome... the only one where he could achieve a stalemate and we have heard questions like well why didn't he just prevent Horus becoming warmaster all along.. and the outcomes i have come up with... assuming the emperor will die regardless are along the lines of

 

 

Perhaps a less able or charismatic primarch is warmaster... (Just picking one out of the hat) say the Lion.. and Guileman (pardon spelling) dies.. he was vital in the rebuilding of the astartes and the restructuring when all was done...

or Perhaps Sanguinius is made war master is corrupted and ALL the primarchs follow him..

or Dorn is made warmaster and terra would have fallen

 

things could have been worse...

 

just my two cent

[Grimtooth]

Yea, my bad it was A Thousand Sons where the Emperor proclaims his ruling and it was directly focused on the Librarius and the Librarians. This included his warning as to anyone that would disobey his order.

 

Yes, and so does Collected Visions include that. But it also contains a section on which the Emperor also clarifies his intent. That does not mean that was retconned in A Thousand Sons, simply that no mention was made. Laws are more than a single word. Documents have to be drawn up, things clarified, etc, etc.

 

Considering there is no canon, past or present, for any sanction being passed on the SW you have to take into consideration that they were exempt from the edict or they were sanctioned psykers by the Emperor.

 

Well we already have the Emperor’s law as presented in Collected Visions. No psykers. Period. We have no fluff explicitly contradicting that unless you care to cite some?

 

I can pull up evidence of the Edict of Nikaea being a bit more ranging than just getting rid of the Librarius. From Flight of the Eisenstein:

 

‘Gifted.’ Dorn made the word a growl. ‘I know the kinds of “gifts” that the Sisterhood come seeking. Have you brought a mind-witch aboard my fortress, Death Guard? Does this remembrancer bear the mark of the psyker?’ He grimaced. ‘I was there at Nikaea when the Emperor himself censured the use of these warp-spawned powers for the good of the Imperium! I will not allow such forces to run unchecked among my warriors!’

‘She is no witch, lord,’ Garro retorted. ‘If anything, her gift is that she has felt the Emperor’s touch more keenly than any one of us!’ The tremor in his voice drew Qruze’s attention and the Luna Wolf came closer.”

 

A rather odd statement for Dorn to make considering that the person in question is not even an Astartes.

 

From Outcast Dead:

 

‘Golovko was a killer of psykers, a gaoler and executioner all in one. His presence within the Whispering Tower was decreed by the new strictures laid down after the great conclave on Nikaea, and Ibn Khaldun suppressed a spike of resentment at its hypocrisy. Bitterness would only cloud his perceptions, and this was a time for clarity like no other.”

 

Again, something rather odd if only the Librarians were affected. To clarified, Golovko is a normal human that operates with the Telepathica. So already we have indication that the Edict covers a bit more than just the Librarians.

 

And the canon has been changed yet again in A Thousand Sons with the decree being solely focused on Librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium, ergo, anything that was influenced/tainted/touched by Magnus.

 

No, that was already present. The "No psykers at all" was something clarified by the Emperor as well. A Thousand Sons simply did not mention it, but that does not mean it has been changed. If anything Outcast Dead has special anti-psyker agents with non-Astartes specifically as a result of the Edict, let alone non-Astartes.

 

No punishment was passed on the Wolves, and there might be some consideration to your point of view, the same is true for the opposite view. It may simply be that the Wolves were good at hiding their indiscretions.

 

But then again Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons have been contradicted by The Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost, in which the message of Magnus clearly taking place after Istvaan V and when news of Horus’s treachery spread to all, making Russ’s statements about Horus being loyal look very odd indeed, unless Russ was taking orders from a known traitor.

 

Your Dorn quote actually hurts your argument more then it helps.

 

1. Dorn was one of the original primarchs against the Librarian project.

2. When he mentions the pskyer remambrancer, he speaks about the Silent Sisterhood whose founding and mission predate the Edict of Nikea.

3. When he mentions the Edict of Nikea he specifically mentions that they will not be in his warriors ala librarians in his Legion.

[Gree]

Your Dorn quote actually hurts your argument more then it helps.

 

Hardly.

 

2. When he mentions the pskyer remambrancer, he speaks about the Silent Sisterhood whose founding and mission predate the Edict of Nikea.

 

And then he mentions Nikaea is refrence to her. Then why does he mention Nikaea then?

 

"Oh, because I wanted to mention it because I felt like it. No reason. It's not really relevant at all. Totatlly seperate. I swear."

 

3. When he mentions the Edict of Nikea he specifically mentions that they will not be in his warriors ala librarians in his Legion.

 

An odd thing to say, considering he was talking about a normal human psyker being present amoung his Legion, when suspededly the Edict was only concerned with the Librarians.

[dragon950]

I'm betting that the SW were carefull how they used their powers. Even if they believe that their powers came from elements of fenris, they were still psychic based powers, something the custodes would not allow them to use. The only time we see them using the powers is when they are alone or during the battle on prospero, where there are hundreds of psychers already using them. The only psychers sanctioned by the emperor were soul bound ones or navigators.

 

I'm sure that the demons didn't bring about nikea, they may have just seen it coming and used it for their own purposes. On a side note; anyone else find it funny how a DEMON snuck into the council of nikea, the only place in the galaxy that has the most powerful humanish psychers and started exerting psychic control over space marines and custodes without anyone noticing?

[Aegnor]

Just had a different thought re: Nikea. Do we know for certain the Emperor was even there? Everyone saw him, but we've established that what people see when they see the Emperor is psychic projection. Maybe what everyone saw at Nikea was a projection by Malcador? He was strangely mute for much of the Council - I have to go back and recheck the scene. But there were

daemons running around the edges of the scene without being detected

, lots of people acting all kinds of shifty, etc etc.

 

We know the Emperor wasn't yet stuck fighting the war within the Webway, but also that he was extremely loathe to leave his labs after he retired from the Crusade. Did he entrust this to Malcador, and perhaps to a couple of the Primarchs who were onside? There seemed to be a very genuine concern that Magnus might make a fight of it at Nikea - perhaps Malcador et al prevailed on him not to go in person.

 

There's a connection between Malcador and the Emperor that has never been fully explained. I can only think of the one example where they've ever both appeared together - the chastisement of the Word Bearers - and even there the Emperor only appeared as a last resort.

[The 13th Goat]

The only psychers sanctioned by the emperor were soul bound ones or navigators.

 

That's something to pick up on. How do we know the trials on Fenris to become a Rune Priest arn't some sort of Soul Binding process? If the Emperor saw the Wolves process and sanctioned it due to it's binding qualities, that could explain it.

 

So, after Nikea the Emperor set out representatives to help dissolve the Legion's librariums. The Wolves strong belief in the World Magic of Fenris acts like some sort of shackle of their powers, and the processes of becoming a Rune Priest so extream any weak willed individuals are weeded out. Upon hearing this, the Emperor decideds to let the Wolves keep their Rune Priests, just in case they are needed. The distinction he draws is thus; the Thousand Sons are not shackled by superstition, and so are unafraid to venture forth into the warp. The Wolves by comparison subconciously tie their power with the concept of Fenris, the belief making them safer if albiet less powerful than their free roaming cousins.

 

Does that theory make any sense to you guys?

[dragon950]

Eh, it sounds like your explaining the reason all grey knights are psychers rather than why the sw rune priest still use their psychic powers. To be honest there just isn't enough information so far on if the rune priest still use their psychic powers in the open or if they are just sneaky.

 

Speaking of which, if the current horrible lore that ward writes is true, why was an enitre space marine chapter allowed to be made up of psychers. I can't remember all of the story, but did the emperor allow it to be made and reverse his decision on psychers or did malcador go rouge and decide that it was the best.

[Billuriye]

Speaking of which, if the current horrible lore that ward writes is true, why was an enitre space marine chapter allowed to be made up of psychers. I can't remember all of the story, but did the emperor allow it to be made and reverse his decision on psychers or did malcador go rouge and decide that it was the best.

 

GK project is after Nikea. Emperor fully sanctioned it.

[Perrin]

Just had a different thought re: Nikea. Do we know for certain the Emperor was even there? Everyone saw him, but we've established that what people see when they see the Emperor is psychic projection. Maybe what everyone saw at Nikea was a projection by Malcador? He was strangely mute for much of the Council - I have to go back and recheck the scene. But there were

daemons running around the edges of the scene without being detected

, lots of people acting all kinds of shifty, etc etc.

 

We know the Emperor wasn't yet stuck fighting the war within the Webway, but also that he was extremely loathe to leave his labs after he retired from the Crusade. Did he entrust this to Malcador, and perhaps to a couple of the Primarchs who were onside? There seemed to be a very genuine concern that Magnus might make a fight of it at Nikea - perhaps Malcador et al prevailed on him not to go in person.

 

There's a connection between Malcador and the Emperor that has never been fully explained. I can only think of the one example where they've ever both appeared together - the chastisement of the Word Bearers - and even there the Emperor only appeared as a last resort.

 

Malcador does make a speach iirc, and on the way to the arena/courtroom Ahriman describes it from a distance as a huge pillar of burning psychic light towering into the sky, or something like that. Theres more stuff about the Emperors burning golden psychic aura later on when Ahriman first sees him i think.

[Aegnor]

Sorry, my post was unclear. I meant the Emperor was, strangly,pretty much mute for the entire council - if I recall correctly, he sat there stony faced, still and silent for almost the entire thing, until he made his pronouncement at the end. He left the heavy lifting to other primarches etc. That's part of why I was asking the question/raising the conspiracy theory. :P

[Perrin]

Sorry, my post was unclear. I meant the Emperor was, strangly,pretty much mute for the entire council - if I recall correctly, he sat there stony faced, still and silent for almost the entire thing, until he made his pronouncement at the end. He left the heavy lifting to other primarches etc. That's part of why I was asking the question/raising the conspiracy theory. ^_^

Oh right ^_^ Yeah that is true, and again like you said about the Word Bearers being told off, it does seem like it would have been a lot quicker for the Emperor to have made a speech or given orders than doing it through Malcador.. hmmm...

[Chaplain ChonkE]

The Emperor was there and giving a proper chastisement via mental mojo to His son Magnus. I doubt Malcador could pull that one off. He turned to smoke after sitting on the Golden Throne for a day; Magnus was built to sit on the chair for eternity and thrive. Malcador is just an exceptional human who has joined the Emperor along for His ride. Malc's has exceptional psychic talent and seems to be a just and moral man; The Emperor likely needs such voices to keep from BURN MAIM KILLing stuff when in a foul temper.

 

I think in Thousand Sons it is speculated that Malcador is only alive because the Emperor *wants* him alive so I think the Emperor feeds him psychic vitality. In that same passage I think it is mentioned that no rejuvenat treatments could keep someone alive for so long. The old legends of the warrior with "Golden Eyes" that pop up in WH40K lore never make mention of some old crony hanging around but that wouldnt surprise me either when you have genetic superfreaks and his E-ness thumping on the overlord of that period.