Ultra Marine Retcon

[pueriexdeus]

I'll say the story is pretty good, but this is defiantly a massive retcon of UM history. Not even the current C:SM or BRB mentions anything about the events in this book. I'll be interested to see how GW alters the UM historical timeline in their V6 Codi.

[MadDoc]

It not being mentioned before doesn't make it a retcon, just new information. Also, the battle at Calth isn't new, its been mentioned in the background before. ;) Not sure how anything in Know No Fear is a retcon... ;)

[Legatus]

The battle as described in 'Know no Fear' is indeed very different than the accounts given in the Index Astartes of the Word Bearers or the one in the Collected Visions book. The latter had described the battle in some detail, and almost nothing of the events described there actually happened in 'Know no Fear'. Aside from the events of the battle itself, the outcome is also slightly different, since the Ultramarines suffered a lot more casualties than previously mentioned. The battle was also now set at the beginning of the Heresy, where earlier sources had described that the Ultramarines had only learned at the very last moment of the treachery.

 

Not sure how anything in Know No Fear is a retcon...

These in particular are very different here (KNF) than the description from the Collected Visions book (CV):

 

- In CV, Guilliman rallies the surviving ships and leads his smaller fleet in several hit and run attacks against the vastly larger Word Bearers fleet, ultimately driving them off. In KNF,

Guilliman only undertakes one single boarding action with a small honour guard, retaking the orbital defense grid and winning the battle

.

 

- In CV, Guilliman is able to re-establish contact with the isolated pockets of resisting Ultramarines on the ground, giving them instructions and coordinating an effective defense, until ultimately defeating the Word Bearers on the ground. In KNF,

Guilliman only coordinates briefly with Ventanus on the ground, telling him to attack one Word Bearers installation. The Battle is ultimately won by the Mechanicus, which is able to regain control over the planetary defense grid. The Ultramarines are instrumental in taking back the defense grid, but it is those defense systems that are then used to defeat the Word Bearers, not a head to head battle of the two Legions

.

 

- In CV, Lorgar is in command of the Word Bearers fleet. In KNF,

he is not, instead being somewhere else within Ultramar and preparing another action

.

 

- In CV, it had been the sole intention of the Word Bearers to completely destroy the Ultramarines, which they cannot accomplish. In KNF,

they have a lot of secondary objectives, such as crippling the Ultramarines to take them out of the picture for several years or to summon a galaxy wide storm to prevent loyal Legions from communicating and travelling. They achieve those objectives, so KNF comes close to actually retconning it into a victory for the Word Bearers

.

 

- In earlier sources, the losses of the Ultramarines during the Heresy had been negligible, and neither the IA:WB article nor the CV account of the Battle for Calth had described grave casualties. In KNF, the Ultramarines are severely hit, losing not only 3/4 of their fleet but also at least half of their warriors, probably more.

 

- In all earlier sources, Ultramar consists of eight worlds, and a Chapter is a 1,000 men string sub unit of a Legion, later being used as the model for the new "Chapter" formations of the Second Founding. In KNF, Ultramar consists of 500 worlds, and a Chapter is a 10,000 strong formation.

[Gree]

- In CV, Lorgar is in command of the Word Bearers fleet. In KNF,

he is not, instead being somewhere else within Ultramar and preparing another action

.

 

I may have missed this but is there any part in the novel that specifally says that Lorgar is not present leading them.

 

- In earlier sources, the losses of the Ultramarines during the Heresy had been negligible, and neither the IA:WB article nor the CV account of the Battle for Calth had described grave casualties. In KNF, the Ultramarines are severely hit, losing not only 3/4 of their fleet but also at least half of their warriors, probably more.

 

In Collected Visions Guilliman described a ‘’mortal blow’’ being delivered to his Legion and “tens of thousands” of casualties killed by the Word Bearers orbital bombardment. Granted I guess tens of thousands of casualties could be interpreted to mean PDF troopers, but I think the intent is obvious.

[The Emperor's Champion]

- In all earlier sources, Ultramar consists of eight worlds, and a Chapter is a 1,000 men string sub unit of a Legion, later being used as the model for the new "Chapter" formations of the Second Founding. In KNF, Ultramar consists of 500 worlds, and a Chapter is a 10,000 strong formation.

Negative. In all earlier sources, Ultramar consists of 8 "planetary systems" (not planets, and not solar systems or star systems). These could very easily contain the 500+ worlds of Ultramar.

Indeed, 8 systems may imply that modern Ultramar has grown from 5 fiefdoms of 100 worlds each to 8 fiefdoms with a combined total of 800 worlds. Or perhaps its roughly the same 500 worlds divided differently.

In any case, the number of worlds isn't actually a retcon. It was simply never explained before what Ultramar's "planetary systems" consisted of.

 

Yea, the Chapter division size got retconned, but for obvious reasons. No author needs to try and juggle the importance of 250 Chapter Masters and try and somehow get across that each one is massively important. It's much more logical to simply make the forces they command 10x larger and have just 25 heroes who are now something like 10x more important.

Doesn't actually hurt much of anything. Now it just means Guilliman split up each Chapter into 10 Chapters during the Second Founding. *shrug*

[Legatus]

- In all earlier sources, Ultramar consists of eight worlds, and a Chapter is a 1,000 men string sub unit of a Legion, later being used as the model for the new "Chapter" formations of the Second Founding. In KNF, Ultramar consists of 500 worlds, and a Chapter is a 10,000 strong formation.

Negative. In all earlier sources, Ultramar consists of 8 "planetary systems" (not planets, and not solar systems or star systems). These could very easily contain the 500+ worlds of Ultramar.

"Ultramar is unique amongst the Space Marines. Where other Chapters rule over a single planet, asteroid or, in some cases, a mobile space fleet or orbital fortress, the Ultramarines have a larger domain. They control no fewer than eight local systems, each with its own worlds and governments loyal to the Chapter. All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge, so it is not surprising that their styles of architecture, government, and traditions are similar. After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

The segment goes on to describe eight worlds in detail: Macragge, Talassar, Quintarn, Tarentus, Masali, Calth, Iax, and Espandor. It also mentions Prandium, but only to point out that it had been destroyed by the Hive Fleet.

 

It is also worth pointing out that Iax is described both as a system and as a single world:

 

"Of all the local worlds Calth is the most specialised, for although its people grow vast quantities of food in nutrient vats they prefer to import most of what they eat from the neighbouring system of Iax. (...)

Iax is sometimes described as the Garden of Ultramar. Its climatic and fertility have made it one of the most naturally productive worlds in the Imperium. The inhabitants have harnessed the planet's inherent productivity, covering its surface with well-ordered farms and cultivated woodlands. There are no large cities on Iax, but many small towns dotted over the landscape, connected together by an efficient system of fast hydroways."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

Because the description of the eight planets appears to be quite exhaustive, and because Iax is refered to as a system but is then described in detail clearly as a planet, it seems as though either the eight systems of Ultramar only contain eight viable worlds (the rest not being viable for collonization or merely housing outposts or mining stations), or, if either the "eight systems" or "eight worlds" has been used mistakenly, that it is the "systems" that was inaccurate.

[The Emperor's Champion]

There is as good as nothing to indicate that the use of "systems" is inaccurate.

It is used over and over and over and over and over again with great consistency.

 

From Index Astartes and the various Codex:Space Marines/Ultramarines:

"no fewer than eight local systems"

"no fewer than eight local systems"

"no fewer than eight nearby systems"

"Macragge and the surrounding systems"

"surrounding systems"

"no fewer than eight nearby systems"

 

They make it clear again and again that it's at least eight systems.

The way they talk about them, and then go on to detail the eight commonly known worlds, makes it seem fairly obvious that the worlds detailed are the capital worlds to their systems.

I've always said that this was how it worked, otherwise the constant use of "planetary systems" wouldn't make any sense. The only thing Know No Fear did was give us a quantity for how many other worlds there are, and an idea of the system through which all those worlds are controlled by their capital worlds.

[Legatus]

They make it clear again and again that it's at least eight systems.

The way they talk about them, and then go on to detail the eight commonly known worlds, makes it seem fairly obvious that the worlds detailed are the capital worlds to their systems.

Acceptable. Then each of the system originally only had one populated world, as per the Codex Ultramarines. (Well, Quintarn, Tarentus, and Masali are within the same system, so there are two systems of Ultramar with no populated world in it, probably containing strategic outposts or mining stations. One of those systems might be the one that had inhabited Prandium.)

 

A "system" generally refers to one stellar object (sometimes an arrangement of objects) with several planetary objects orbiting them. Like our own Solar System. So far all other systems found have fewer planetary objects that ours, and of course only a small number of the planets would be inhabitable even with more advanced terraforming of colonization technology. So the idea that somehow each system of Ultramar contains 60+ inhabited worlds is quite outlandish.

 

Plus, IIRC the 500 worlds had been introduced into Ultramar's fold during the course of the Great Crusade, while Guilliman had already united the local systems when being found by the Emperor. If those 500 worlds had been part of those same systems that already belonged to Ultramar, then they would already have been part of Ultramar as well, wouldn't they? But if I am not mistaken they all had joined Ultramar later.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus, why don't you think its cool that Ultramar is essentially an Imperium within an Imperium (straight from the mind of Christopher Nolan, that one). Its the India to the Imperium as Great Britain. Its the California to the Imperium's US. It has the potentially to be awesome.

 

Think about it. some Imperial Guardsmen fighting against the Tyranids in the Segmentum Tempestus hears that the Ultramarines and a fleet from Ultramar are coming in to aid them. Its like your own personal hero coming to help you. Its awesome, and the 'BIG Imperium' concept is far more realistic than the one you prefer.

 

 

Wouldn't you like sci-fi that makes sense? You are a paragon of logic and fact based background, so why whenever they change something to be more logical do you hate it so much?

 

10,000 marines is too small to do much. 1,000,000 Guardsmen liberating a world is less than everyone who fought on the Eastern Front. On one side. Battle Barges that are only 5 km long are too small to shoot ordnance capable of impacting with so much force it messes with the tectonics of a planet.

 

'BIG' background doesn't mean epic, it just means larger, like what space and a galaxy spanning empire would be like.

[greatcrusade08]

alot of sources including the 2nd ed dex above indicate the state of the ultramarines now (in Y40k).. so claiming 8 systems/planets being retconned to 500 is inacurate..

show me previous material which shows the state of ultramar during the time of its legion (Y30k) and ill consider it.

 

its my belief that what we know as ultramar today was the centre hub for 500 worlds, which were broken up at the time of second founding and given to succesor chapters

[Legatus]

Legatus, why don't you think its cool that Ultramar is essentially an Imperium within an Imperium

So far I had merely tried to point out what had been changed in the recent novel, without expressing whether I thought that change was good or bad. If you want to know why I don't like that change, well, because I don't like GW changing (seemingly without any actual justification) fifteen year old background. More specifically in this case because it makes Guillliman into the "empire builder" he previously had been accused to be. Now that's what he actually did, even if that did not stop him from still conquering more worlds overall than other Legions.

 

 

Wouldn't you like sci-fi that makes sense? You are a paragon of logic and fact based background, so why whenever they change something to be more logical do you hate it so much?

Other Legions and later Chapters have one single homeworld. The Ultramarines had eight worlds. Why would it be more logical for them to have five hundred?

 

 

10,000 marines is too small to do much.

The thing is, if an effective Space Marine strike force consists of 100-150 Marines, and an effective Imperial fleet consists of around 10 ships, then you can play meaningful battles in 40K with a force of 40-50 Marines, or in BFG with 5-10 ships. If GW changes the scope so that you would realistically need 1,000 Marines to accomplish anything, or 100+ ships in a decent fleet, then all games of 40K and BFG suddenly got a lot less significant in the grand scheme of a conflict.

 

 

---

 

alot of sources including the 2nd ed dex above indicate the state of the ultramarines now (in Y40k).. so claiming 8 systems/planets being retconned to 500 is inacurate..

show me previous material which shows the state of ultramar during the time of its legion (Y30k) and ill consider it.

Exhibit a: The local systems are already united when the Emperor finds Guilliman.

 

"By the time the Emperor reached Macragge, Roboute Guilliman had ruled for almost five years. In that time the world had undergone a transformation. Its people were well fed and prosperous, its armies well-equipped and powerful, and its cities had been rebuilt in glittering marble and shining steel. Spacecraft from Macragge ran regular routes between the local systems, bringing raw materials and more people to the flourishing world."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

 

 

Exhibit b: The worlds of Ultramar are the same after the Heresy as they were throughout the Great Crusade.

 

"One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

 

Exhibit c: Eight systems/worlds directly after the Heresy.

 

"Where other Chapters rule over a single planet, asteroid or, in some cases, a mobile space fleet or orbital fortress, the Ultramarines have a larger domain. They control no fewer than eight local systems, each with its own worlds and governments loyal to the Chapter. All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge, so it is not surprising that their styles of architecture, government, and traditions are similar. After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

 

While I am mainly quoting from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines repeats those passages, of course. They can be found on the pages 13, 14 and 14, respectively.

[greatcrusade08]

but again you havent proved they only had 8 worlds/systems during the heresy in regards to older material..all of this material speaks of ultramar as we know it today.. it isnt mutually exclusive to the new info from KNF.

 

lets face it,it the frst real ultramarines heresy book..we need to expect changes, but isuspect alot of questions will be answered, aswell as new questions arising.

so far we havent had any real retconning, apart from legion numbers and casualies, secondary aims of WBs etc all noted by yourself above.

i wouldnt even consider it a retcon, more an evolution of many smaller sources into one big story

[The emperors chosen]

I think the main issue is GW's use of the terms "system" and "planet". It seems like they are used interchangeably, which gives us an unrealistic picture of what Ultramar is like. As Legatus notes, it has been established that the Ultramaries have had eight systems, as shown is this quote:

 

"Where other Chapters rule over a single planet, asteroid or, in some cases, a mobile space fleet or orbital fortress, the Ultramarines have a larger domain. They control no fewer than eight local systems, each with its own worlds and governments loyal to the Chapter. All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge, so it is not surprising that their styles of architecture, government, and traditions are similar. After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

The thing is, they seem to use the words system and world synonymously. If KNF says 500 worlds, then we have to assume they are divided amongst the 8 systems, with the 8 world being the capital planets.

[Legatus]

but again you havent proved they only had 8 worlds/systems during the heresy in regards to older material..all of this material speaks of ultramar as we know it today..

Er, those quotes describe how Guilliman had united the local systems/worlds at the time he was found by the Emperor, that the Ultramarines continued to draw recruits from those systems/worlds even after being reorganised into a Chapter, and that they were eight systems/worlds. All of that is during the Great Crusade and the Heresy, 30K.

[greatcrusade08]

but again you havent proved they only had 8 worlds/systems during the heresy in regards to older material..all of this material speaks of ultramar as we know it today..

Er, those quotes describe how Guilliman had united the local systems/worlds at the time he was found by the Emperor, that the Ultramarines continued to draw recruits from those systems/worlds even after being reorganised into a Chapter, and that they were eight systems/worlds. All of that is during the Great Crusade and the Heresy, 30K.

 

guilliman occupied the area we know as ultramar when he was found..

ultramar still exists today ownedby the ultramarines chapter

 

cool, but what about in-between?

old material makes no mention of adding worlds to ultramar, and how many world were lost during second founding.

isnt it more likely (in order to fit with KNF info) that 500 worlds were split to accomodate 2nd foundings and the area known as ultramar was kept with the ultramarines 'chapter' becuase of its sigificance to guilliman?

 

there is no retcon here,only a failure to accept newer material along side the old

[Gree]

Wouldn't you like sci-fi that makes sense? You are a paragon of logic and fact based background, so why whenever they change something to be more logical do you hate it so much?

Other Legions and later Chapters have one single homeworld. The Ultramarines had eight worlds. Why would it be more logical for them to have five hundred?

 

It also looks blindingly hypocritical. The whole point of the Codex reforms is that one man could never wield the power of a Space Marine Legion. The armies and fleets that served under the Mairne Legions were stripped away.

 

If the Ultramarines of today control 500 worlds then that makes them looks very hypocritical. That’s bigger than the Gothic Sector.

 

The thing is, if an effective Space Marine strike force consists of 100-150 Marines, and an effective Imperial fleet consists of around 10 ships, then you can play meaningful battles in 40K with a force of 40-50 Marines, or in BFG with 5-10 ships. If GW changes the scope so that you would realistically need 1,000 Marines to accomplish anything, or 100+ ships in a decent fleet, then all games of 40K and BFG suddenly got a lot less significant in the grand scheme of a conflict.

 

They already are quite insignificant. Chances are, most wars in the Imperium never see a single Space Marine. The vast bulk of fighting will be done by the Guard.

[Legatus]

cool, but what about in-between?

old material makes no mention of adding worlds to ultramar, and how many world were lost during second founding.

isnt it more likely (in order to fit with KNF info) that 500 worlds were split to accomodate 2nd foundings and the area known as ultramar was kept with the ultramarines 'chapter' becuase of its sigificance to guilliman?

That would be in line with the 500 worlds back then and the eight worlds now. But that would be a retcon.

 

 

"One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

The Ultramarines continued to recruit from the worlds they had been using throughout the Great Crusade. They are not described as reducing their realm to a fraction of its former size. It specifically explains that the smaller Chapter would not really need to recruit from that many worlds any more, but that they continue the tradition anyway.

 

Guilliman had united the local systems before being found by the Emperor. The new Chapter continued to recruit from those systems that the Legion had recruited from throughout the Great Crusade. They were eight systems.

 

--> It being 500 systems/worlds at some point is a retcon.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

It also looks blindingly hypocritical. The whole point of the Codex reforms is that one man could never wield the power of a Space Marine Legion. The armies and fleets that served under the Mairne Legions were stripped away.

 

If the Ultramarines of today control 500 worlds then that makes them looks very hypocritical. That’s bigger than the Gothic Sector.

I guess the current assumption is that the 500 worlds will be reduced to the eight we know today at some later point of the Heresy, perhaps during the Second Founding. My point is that the 500 worlds are one of the retcons in 'Know no Fear', and are contradicted by earlier material, and not merely "new information" we did not previously have.

[greatcrusade08]

sigh its like talking to a brick wall.

that they recruited from those 8 systems doesnt not mean those were all they had to recruit from later on in the GC.

they are not said to have reduced thier size during the 2nd founding... yet

 

It being 500 systems/worlds at some point is a retcon.

it cant be, becuase ultramar isnt written to be only 8 systems throughout the entire great crusade.. you are assuming and pushing that fact, but nothing supports it.

 

and im done.. disagree if you want, i suddenly dont care anymore ;)

[Legatus]

it cant be, becuase ultramar isnt written to be only 8 systems throughout the entire great crusade.. you are assuming and pushing that fact, but nothing supports it.

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. (...) Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. (...) After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman."

 

Nothing supports it... ;)

[greatcrusade08]

it cant be, becuase ultramar isnt written to be only 8 systems throughout the entire great crusade.. you are assuming and pushing that fact, but nothing supports it.

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. (...) Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. (...) After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman."

 

Nothing supports it... ;)

 

i was done, but IMO youve commited a big sin here..

ignoring the obtuse nature of his post.. whats youve done is snipped 3 sentences from 3 different sources to create a quote which has a different meaning.. thats wholley inapropriate.

 

the first section talks about ultramar pre heresy, the second at the time of 2nd founding, the last takes the perspective of modern ultramar..

there is not a single quote from codex ultramarines that says ultramar only ever had 8 worlds through-out the entire great crusade...

 

show me that im wrong without paraphrasing... oh wait you cant :P

and now im really done.. if you need to 'cheat' to win an argument its not worth my time anymore

[Legatus]

i was done, but IMO youve commited a big sin here..

ignoring the obtuse nature of his post.. whats youve done is snipped 3 sentences from 3 different sources to create a quote which has a different meaning.. thats wholley inapropriate.

 

the first section talks about ultramar pre heresy, the second at the time of 2nd founding, the last takes the perspective of modern ultramar..

there is not a single quote from codex ultramarines that says ultramar only ever had 8 worlds through-out the entire great crusade...

 

show me that im wrong without paraphrasing... oh wait you cant

Oh, my bad. Here is the section in it's entirety. I'll emphasize the statements I had used in my previous excerpt.

 

"One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines.

Ultramar is unique amongst the Space Marines. Where other Chapters rule over a single planet, asteroid or, in some cases, a mobile space fleet or orbiutal fortress, the Ultramarines have a larger domain. They control no fewer than eight local systems, each with its own worlds and governments loyal to the Chapter. All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge, so it is not surprising that their styles of architectire, government, and traditions are similar. After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman. There are many today who regard Ultramar as the ideal model for human society."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

 

Surprisingly, even if not taken horribly out of context as I had done, it amounts to exactly the same. You can see that the first two statements are very much connected and refering to the exact same collection of worlds, first during the Great Crusade and then after the reformation into a Chapter. While the third sentence does belong to a broader description of Ultramar as it exists to this day, you can hardly tell me that a statement such as "after the Heresy all eight worlds benefited from Guilliman's reform" is not refering to a period, well, directly after the Horus Heresy (where Guilliman was still alive and all that), and is instead somehow meant to refer to the eight worlds in the 41st millennium.

[Conn Eremon]

Its the California to the Imperium's US.

 

As a Californian, I laughed. We march for San Fran, AND WE WILL KNOW NO FEAR!

 

 

Other Legions and later Chapters have one single homeworld.

 

Imperial Fists?

[Gree]

Imperial Fists?

 

Technically yes, Terra is the Fists homeworld, although in practice they are a fleet based chapter.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually when KNF ends, the battle for Calth is still happening, it just started moving underground. While it doesn't show the Naval battle in great detail, it say that it still happened. If you recall, it says that the Infidus Imperator was retreating with the rest of the Word Bearer fleet behind it and the Ultramarines persuing. It even said that the chase would turn into one of the most historical naval battles.

 

And on the 500 worlds, KNF showed that the battle of Calth wasn't just the planet, it involved the whole system. An entire forgeworld was destroyed. So the 500 worlds didn't just count the recruiting worlds. It counted every single world that fit withing the boundaries of Ultramar. Every Forgeworld, every agri-world, every hive-world etcetra etcetra. There were just eight worlds that they only recruited from or held in that high esteem. And it is possible that as part of limiting the autonomy of the Space Marines resulted in some worlds being annexed from Ultramar into the general Imperium. Because let's face it, an entire empire under the control of Space Marines, regardless of how loyal the Space Marines are, was a scary thought to the High Lords of Terra immediately following the Heresy.

 

As far a the numbers go, that was basically done to make the Space Marines truly Legion. Just to make it seem more horrifying. Let's face it, an army of Space Marines that could walk over a world and put it into submission would have a bit more impact than a few hundred Space Marines. And it fits into the whole "never-stopping meatgrinder of compliance" style. Besides the battle of Calth becomes a bit more dramatic if it has hundreds of thousands of Ultramarines dying versus a handful. And since there were six more years of the Heresy, the loss of ships would help explain the limited efforts from the Ultramarines. As you pointed out in another thread Legatus.

 

The bigger loss of numbers would also make the split from Legion to Chapters to manage. The Ultramarines already have more than enough Second Founding Successors. Can you imagine how many more they would have if they only lost a handful?

 

EDIT: I realize that KNF ends with Ventaneus planting a standard into the burned soil of Colchis. When I mentioned the end of KNF, I was referencing the last chapter before the epilogue.

[Bat33.1]

- In all earlier sources, Ultramar consists of eight worlds, and a Chapter is a 1,000 men string sub unit of a Legion, later being used as the model for the new "Chapter" formations of the Second Founding. In KNF, Ultramar consists of 500 worlds, and a Chapter is a 10,000 strong formation.

 

The size of the legions and the various sub-formations seems to vary quite considerably. In 'Horus Rising' Torgaddon tears a strip off Eidolon for dropping with a full company and having only 39 men remaining having lost over half the company. So, presumably, we can draw from this that a company is indeed 100 men give or take a couple. Is a Lord Commander of the Emperors Children little more than a company captain then? It seems rather a grand title but it is the EC I suppose :D

Then you get to the 'Death Guard' who are stated as never being more than seven companies strong in Index Astartes, oh all right it does qualify this as being of considerably greater size. But even at ten times the size, that puts the whole legion at 7,000 max which doesn't really fit with the new beefed up super legions in the 100,000+ size. So lots of bits that don't fit exactly with previous editions in the HH novels.

I suppose the get out clause could be that the books are history written many years after the events took place, and there are many examples in ancient history of greatly exaggerated numbers taking part in battles. In some cases the country's population would likely to be lower than those said to be taking part, and with the retelling of tales the numbers would always go up, never down.

 

As for me? If the book tells a good story and sheds some light in the dark corners of the Heresy it's all good...