Ultra Marine Retcon

[Veteran Sergeant]

Legatus, why don't you think its cool that Ultramar is essentially an Imperium within an Imperium (straight from the mind of Christopher Nolan, that one).

Wait a minute. Let's be fair here. Nolan stole the idea for Inception almost straight from a Donald Duck comic book. :) Let's give credit where credit is due, lol.

 

I think this argument is somewhat irrelevant. What we know is that 40K Ultramar is 8-13 planets/systems.

 

However, that may be because the 500 systems of 30K Ultramar were distributed amongst the 2nd Founding Successors of the Ultramarines, or folded back into the Imperium after the dissolution of the Legions. I don't think this is as big of a change as some people make it out to be. After all, the Legions inflated roughly ten fold in the new version of the Heresy.

 

 

I will agree that some of the retcons of KNF are a bit strange and unneeded. The timeline anomaly is bothersome. Calth taking place months after Istvaan V, and yet the Ultramarines knowing nothing of the events there seems a bit hard to believe. This was a battle where seven Legions were mobilized to attack several more which had turned traitor. An event that was wholly unprecedented and unthinkable up until that point. And nobody bothered to tell the Ultramarines? Even if we buy the hand-waving warp storm excuses, this is pretty weak. Calth should have been simultaneous with Istvaan V. Half the Word Bearers go to Istvaan, half to Calth. Then there are less continuity issues.

[Legatus]

I think this argument is somewhat irrelevant. What we know is that 40K Ultramar is 8-13 planets/systems.

 

However, that may be because the 500 systems of 30K Ultramar were distributed amongst the 2nd Founding Successors of the Ultramarines, or folded back into the Imperium after the dissolution of the Legions.

That may well be how future novels may explain why there are only so few systems/worlds within ultramar in the 41st millennium. But in the 2nd and 5th Edition Codex that was specifically said to not have been the case. It is described how the arsenal and weapon shops on macragge were dismantled and how their genetic banks were reduced in size as the new successor Chapters were established elsewhere in the galaxy. Then it goes on to point out that one aspect of the Legion that didn't change was that the Chapter kept recruiting from the worlds around Macragge, where they had recruited from during the Crusade, even though that was not really necessary anymore with the smaller Chapter. So it is really not like that bit simply never had been explained to us before and is just more in depth information. No, that was specifically not the case before. The Ultramar the Chapter kept controling after the break up of the Legions had been the same they had been in control over throughout the Great Crusade.

 

The biggest issue is also not that Ultramar is said to have been bigger than before (as pointless as that change may be, when the remaining Legions still have to make due with a single home world). The biggest issue is that previosuly, Guilliman had already established that realm before being found by the Emperor, and had not really done anything to it during the Great Crusade. Now, with the new fluff, Guilliman had been icnreasing Ultramar throughout the Great Crusade, while officially being mandated to increase the Imperium. And it is not just that this makes him seem selfish (which it does), or that it detracted him from doing a proper job (which it doesn't). The problem is that this is exactly what players had accused him of doing. They accused him of building his empire, to work towards his own prosperity, while the other Primarchs fought in the Crusade. But that had not been what he was doing in previous fluff. Ultramar had already been established before Guilliman had even been found by the Emperor and sent on the Crusade. But now, now that is exactly what Guilliman had been doing.

[Gree]

The biggest issue is also not that Ultramar is said to have been bigger than before (as pointless as that change may be, when the remaining Legions still have to make due with a single home world). The biggest issue is that previosuly, Guilliman had already established that realm before being found by the Emperor, and had not really done anything to it during the Great Crusade. Now, with the new fluff, Guilliman had been icnreasing Ultramar throughout the Great Crusade, while officially being mandated to increase the Imperium. And it is not just that this makes him seem selfish (which it does), or that it detracted him from doing a proper job (which it doesn't). The problem is that this is exactly what players had accused him of doing. They accused him of building his empire, to work towards his own prosperity, while the other Primarchs fought in the Crusade. But that had not been what he was doing in previous fluff. Ultramar had already been established before Guilliman had even been found by the Emperor and sent on the Crusade. But now, now that is exactly what Guilliman had been doing.

 

Well to play the devil’s advocate, would not be increasing the size of Ultramar be also technically increasing the size of the Imperium.

[Legatus]

Well to play the devil’s advocate, would not be increasing the size of Ultramar be also technically increasing the size of the Imperium.

Obviously. But no other Primarch was staking out his personal territory in the process of expanding the Imperial realm. Neither was Guilliman, originally. Now he does that.

[Arkangilos]

Well to play the devil’s advocate, would not be increasing the size of Ultramar be also technically increasing the size of the Imperium.

Obviously. But no other Primarch was staking out his personal territory in the process of expanding the Imperial realm. Neither was Guilliman, originally. Now he does that.

 

Is he? Or is he just reclaiming what is in the Ultima Segmentum, and it is being classified under the realm of Ultramar?

 

And this does not really say it is different from the SM codex. From what you have provided evidence for, they kept the original Ultramar, the systems... around Macragge.

 

Everything that I have heard about this book makes me actually like the Ultras more. Everything I have heard has given them a far more positive light. In fact, I have only seen a handful of people not like it, and all of them are the ones who originally protected everything about them. All of the other people I have seen hate on the ultra's (which would include Marshall2Crusader) have seemed to switch sides. Funny how that works.

[Legatus]

And this does not really say it is different from the SM codex. From what you have provided evidence for, they kept the original Ultramar, the systems... around Macragge.

Which had also been described as the worlds the Ultramarines were drawing recruits and resources from during the Great Crusade.

 

Worlds during Great Crusade = worlds after the Second Founding = Ultramar.

 

 

In fact, I have only seen a handful of people not like it, and all of them are the ones who originally protected everything about them. All of the other people I have seen hate on the ultra's (which would include Marshall2Crusader) have seemed to switch sides. Funny how that works.

And quite understandable, seeing as how the Ultramarines are beat up pretty bad, don't really do anything remarkable themselves (in fact, have pretty much all of the accomplishments of earlier accounts stripped from them), and are a lot funnier and easy going than expected. No wonder this goes down well with people who previously were not that fond of the competent and professional Ultramarines. :D

 

 

To clarify, because this will easily get taken the wrong way: The Ultramarines are not portrayed as incompenent fools. They are still the "good guys" of the book. But the resume above is still accurate, and the Ultramarines are presented much more like underdogs who just so manage to endure, and are not being victorious due to any remarkable feat of their own, but purely due to the negligence of their enemy. To put it simply: The book does not show them to be in the least bit awesome, which, even if a novel is not meant to to make other factions look bad, is generally what should be accomplished by a book about that particular Legion. The Ultramarines are in it. And there is fighting. And because the Ultramarines do not accomplish anything remarkable, this will not be seen as obnoxious by anyone (as justified as accomplishments would have been).

 

In the Collected Visions account of the battle, Guilliman was orchestrating a drawn out space battle against a numerically superior foe, while at the same time micro managing all the smaller isolated pockets of resistance on the ground. Again against a numerically vastly superior foe. That would have been a display of of great ability, and quite remarkable, even awesome. But nothing of the sort happens in the book. Instead, Guilliman gets slapped around by a Word Bearers Marine. Gee, I am so glad the people that didn't previously like the Ultramarines come out favourably about this book.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The biggest issue is also not that Ultramar is said to have been bigger than before (as pointless as that change may be, when the remaining Legions still have to make due with a single home world).

 

But are the other Legions "making do" with a single world, or is this establishing the difference between the Ultramarines and the other Legions, and establishing just why Guilliman was able to build his legion so much more efficiently than the other Primarchs? We already know that the second largest legion, the Word Bearers, had been establishing a succession of Church Worlds, and had been bolstering their numbers with a combination of low casualties from not fighting as much, but also through a logistical chain for new recruits on these worlds. The other Legions were smaller because their Primarchs either didn't have the vision and foresight to establish such logistical or didn't share Guilliman's vision of empire building, not just empire conquering. Their replacements were filtered from further away, and less efficient recruiting processes, while Guilliman was establishing an empire within the Imperium to more efficiently fuel his war machine.

[Legatus]

If 1 world can sustain a Legion up to 100,000, then surely 8 worlds would be way in excess of the needs of a Legion of 250,000?

[A D-B]

We already know that the second largest legion, the Word Bearers, had been establishing a succession of Church Worlds, and had been bolstering their numbers with a combination of low casualties from not fighting as much...

 

Nope; actually, the Word Bearers were practically the most active Legion in the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade, ostensibly to make up for their shaming.

[Octavulg]

Legatus

 

The biggest issue is also not that Ultramar is said to have been bigger than before (as pointless as that change may be, when the remaining Legions still have to make due with a single home world). The biggest issue is that previosuly, Guilliman had already established that realm before being found by the Emperor, and had not really done anything to it during the Great Crusade. Now, with the new fluff, Guilliman had been icnreasing Ultramar throughout the Great Crusade, while officially being mandated to increase the Imperium. And it is not just that this makes him seem selfish (which it does), or that it detracted him from doing a proper job (which it doesn't). The problem is that this is exactly what players had accused him of doing. They accused him of building his empire, to work towards his own prosperity, while the other Primarchs fought in the Crusade. But that had not been what he was doing in previous fluff. Ultramar had already been established before Guilliman had even been found by the Emperor and sent on the Crusade. But now, now that is exactly what Guilliman had been doing.

 

And in the cold void of space, I am laughing. :(

 

Veteran Sergeant

 

But are the other Legions "making do" with a single world, or is this establishing the difference between the Ultramarines and the other Legions, and establishing just why Guilliman was able to build his legion so much more efficiently than the other Primarchs? We already know that the second largest legion, the Word Bearers, had been establishing a succession of Church Worlds, and had been bolstering their numbers with a combination of low casualties from not fighting as much, but also through a logistical chain for new recruits on these worlds. The other Legions were smaller because their Primarchs either didn't have the vision and foresight to establish such logistical or didn't share Guilliman's vision of empire building, not just empire conquering. Their replacements were filtered from further away, and less efficient recruiting processes, while Guilliman was establishing an empire within the Imperium to more efficiently fuel his war machine.

 

If he's drawing from 500 worlds and his legion is only several times the size of the others (who are making do with one or a handful), I'm gonna have to go with Guilliman being less efficient. :)

 

Also, doesn't the "not fighting as much" argument work just as well for the Ultramarines as the Word Bearers? Especially if you take the view that the reason Guilliman has the most worlds conquered but not the most victories is that he negotiated a lot.

 

Also, there is an argument to be made that the appropriate role of a Primarch is empire conquering, not empire building. Especially if that empire is yours.

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman was empire building. He was building the Imperium. Ultramar is part of the Imperium and wholly loyal and subvertative to it.

[Legatus]

I still preferred it when he was not working into his own pocket during the Great Crusade.

[Gree]

Guilliman was empire building. He was building the Imperium. Ultramar is part of the Imperium and wholly loyal and subvertative to it.

 

Well I’ve seen people doubt the latter many times before, but even if it’s increasing the size of the Imperium it makes Guilliman look rather selfish and power hungry to me. Why does he need to increase his personal fief? He was created to be a general, not a tax collector. It’s even noted to sound rather shady by one of the new settlers:

 

"Oll spent two years on a cattle-boat coming to Calth from Chrysophar. The posters and the handbills all called Ultramar ‘the New Empire’. The slogan seemed a little disloyal, but the point was made. The rich new cluster of worlds that great Guilliman had made compliant, and wrangled into a brawny frontier republic, had the look of a new empire about it. The posters were trying to appeal to the settlers and colonists streaming out towards the Rim on the coattails of the expeditionary fleets. Come to Ultramar and share our future. Build your new life on Calth. Settle on Octavia. New worlds, New destinies!"

 

And then we have this which implies that Guilliman is devoting time away from war to administrating and ruling. It also somewhat implies that Guilliman has stopped conquering worlds in the Great Crusade.

 

"So did, perhaps, the fact that Guilliman already had responsibilities. An empire, half-built. Ultramar. Administration. Populations. A culture. Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord, where Horus was still a killer of worlds and a subjugator of adversaries."

 

But as Octavulg said, a case could be made for a Primarch's role to conquer an Empire, not to nessecarily build one.

[Conn Eremon]

Wait a minute. Let's be fair here. Nolan stole the idea for Inception almost straight from a Donald Duck comic book. :) Let's give credit where credit is due, lol.

 

Forgive me for being off-topic here, but wasn't it Scrooge McDuck?

 

Which had also been described as the worlds the Ultramarines were drawing recruits and resources from during the Great Crusade.

 

Worlds during Great Crusade = worlds after the Second Founding = Ultramar.

 

Well, hold on here, that doesn't necessarily have to follow. The worlds they recruit from as a Chapter are the worlds including and surrounding Macragge, which are the same worlds that provided recruits for the Legion. However, that doesn't say that the Chapter's recruitment worlds are all of the Legion's recruitment worlds. All that statement says is that all of the Chapter's recruitment worlds can be incorporated into the category of Legion recruitment worlds. If you consider the Legion recruitment worlds to be the exact same size or greater than the Chapter's recruitment worlds, then it could still be true. So the statement, as you've delivered it (I don't know the exact quote), does not specifically state that one equals the other at all.

 

So the theory that the vastly increased size of Ultramar was split amongst the Ultramarine successors is still a viable theory.

 

EDIT: I should really stop hitting submit so quickly.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't hate on the Ultras at all. They were my second SM army and the one I played for 3 years. I hate the fact that Guilliman broke up the legions. A move I think was illegal. I hate on the way the codex is portrayed. I hated on Guilliman seemingly sitting the heresy out intentionally in RoE. Now that KNF has put it in context I don't have a problem with it.

 

You can ask anyone in the subforum and they will yell you there are specific things I don't like and don't agree with but I don't participate in the Ultras Suck meetings.

[Legatus]

I'll vouch for M2C, if necessary. :)

 

 

Well, hold on here, that doesn't necessarily have to follow. The worlds they recruit from as a Chapter are the worlds including and surrounding Macragge, which are the same worlds that provided recruits for the Legion. However, that doesn't say that the Chapter's recruitment worlds are all of the Legion's recruitment worlds. All that statement says is that all of the Chapter's recruitment worlds can be incorporated into the category of Legion recruitment worlds. If you consider the Legion recruitment worlds to be the exact same size or greater than the Chapter's recruitment worlds, then it could still be true. So the statement, as you've delivered it (I don't know the exact quote), does not specifically state that one equals the other at all.

 

So the theory that the vastly increased size of Ultramar was split amongst the Ultramarine successors is still a viable theory.

The 2nd and 5th Edition Codices specifically point out that it were the same worlds the Legion had used.

 

"With the Second Founding the size of the Ultramarines' forces was much reduced. Most of the Space Marines left Macragge to establish new Chapters elsewhere. The Ultramarines' fortress was built to accomodate more than ten times as many Space Marines as now remained on the homeworld. As a result its arsenals and weapon shops were partially dismantled, and taken by the Primogenitor Chapters to found their own bases throughout the galaxy. The genetic banks of the Ultramarines, and the huge recruitment organisation, was similarly reduced in size.

One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14) (alternatively in 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 14)

 

As you can see, the background was quite explicite in pointing out that while the Legion's arsenal, weapon shops, genetic banks, etc. were all distributed between the newly formed Chapters, what remained was that the Ultramarines continued to recruit from the worlds that had provided recruits during the Great Crusade. Even though that was not really necessary anymore, due to the now much smaller Chapter, they continued to do so. The realm of the Legion was explicitely not split between the newly founded Chapters.

[Octavulg]

It's strongly implied, Legatus, but it's not quite explicit. You could read that to just be talking specifically about the worlds close to Ultramar.

[Legatus]

Well, it is specifically talking about the worlds around Macragge. And during the Great Crusade the Ultramarines received recruits and resources from these particular worlds in question. And they still do, to this day. And that region is called Ultramar.

 

I find it difficult to interpret this:

 

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft."

 

as an "among hundreds of other worlds".

[Octavulg]

I find it difficult to interpret this:

 

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft."

 

as an "among hundreds of other worlds".

 

So do I. But I find it equally difficult to believe that you think people on the Internet can't interpret just about anything as just about anything else. :)

[Veteran Sergeant]

We already know that the second largest legion, the Word Bearers, had been establishing a succession of Church Worlds, and had been bolstering their numbers with a combination of low casualties from not fighting as much...

 

Nope; actually, the Word Bearers were practically the most active Legion in the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade, ostensibly to make up for their shaming.

That may be true, but replacing battle losses is far easier than building up. Once you have the logistical chain in place, you're able to continue supplying recruits. But getting to the larger numbers is the challenge.

[Arkangilos]

I don't hate on the Ultras at all. They were my second SM army and the one I played for 3 years. I hate the fact that Guilliman broke up the legions. A move I think was illegal. I hate on the way the codex is portrayed. I hated on Guilliman seemingly sitting the heresy out intentionally in RoE. Now that KNF has put it in context I don't have a problem with it.

 

You can ask anyone in the subforum and they will yell you there are specific things I don't like and don't agree with but I don't participate in the Ultras Suck meetings.

 

Oh, thats what i meant. Sorry, I had misspoken.

[Captain Idaho]

You know, it's not been said once in the Heresy series that Guilliman was building his own Empire, and no-one has criticised him for lining his own pockets or profiteering. It stands to reason, especially as the Emperor and Dorn and Horus and all the rest haven't made exception to Guilliman's apparent Empire building, that Guilliman is doing nothing wrong.

 

Seriously, the quote of "New Empire" is a one dimensional interpretation. It is possible, just maybe, that it refers to a new era of Humanity starting with Ultramar.

 

It's actually so funny the only people I have read online criticising Guilliman as an empire builder because of this book are supposed Ultramarines fans! You guys are actually making a bigger deal of it than anyone else.

 

Don't read things so black and white and consider the deeper literary nuances in the information we get on this, like what I mentioned above regarding the New Empire comment.

[Gree]

You know, it's not been said once in the Heresy series that Guilliman was building his own Empire, and no-one has criticised him for lining his own pockets or profiteering. It stands to reason, especially as the Emperor and Dorn and Horus and all the rest haven't made exception to Guilliman's apparent Empire building, that Guilliman is doing nothing wrong.

 

Perhaps that is because this is a really recent retcon? Previously when we had seen the Primarchs we had not really seen their opinions on the matter. But to me it smacks of disloyalty and selfishness.

 

It's actually so funny the only people I have read online criticising Guilliman as an empire builder because of this book are supposed Ultramarines fans! You guys are actually making a bigger deal of it than anyone else.

 

Well I’ve already seen people on Dakka Dakka make such statements and I’ve seen people prior to this book accuse Guilliman of that But as Legatus said, it’s too early to see the negative impact of this book in the larger fan community.

 

Don't read things so black and white and consider the deeper literary nuances in the information we get on this, like what I mentioned above regarding the New Empire comment.

 

And I cannot agree with you. If may be all fine and loyal, but to me it just smacks of selfishness and disloyalty. I don’t like it. I’m sorry if you disagree with my interpretation of it but that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

[A D-B]

We already know that the second largest legion, the Word Bearers, had been establishing a succession of Church Worlds, and had been bolstering their numbers with a combination of low casualties from not fighting as much...

 

Nope; actually, the Word Bearers were practically the most active Legion in the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade, ostensibly to make up for their shaming.

That may be true, but replacing battle losses is far easier than building up. Once you have the logistical chain in place, you're able to continue supplying recruits. But getting to the larger numbers is the challenge.

 

True blue.

[Captain Idaho]

And I cannot agree with you. If may be all fine and loyal, but to me it just smacks of selfishness and disloyalty. I don’t like it. I’m sorry if you disagree with my interpretation of it but that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

 

Well naturally that's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions and interpretations.

 

I would like to point out though, you are a minority as most people have come out and said they liked Guilliman and his Legion because of the book. I believe more people don't see the black and white interpretation that Guilliman was a power monger after reading this book but understand the lack of reaction from other characters in the universe, including the Emperor and his Brothers, indicates Guilliman isn't guilty until proven innocent but doing the work of his father.

 

My personal opinion and interpretation is that the story hadn't fully expanded upon Ultramar yet and we don't know much detail about it.

 

It's premature to start pointing fingers at Guilliman. I remember people doing the same when we had the short story Rules of Engagement, one of which was yourself I believe. The criticism was Guilliman should have intercepted or reinforced Terra, and I pointed out then it was premature to condem his inaction until further information has come to light, which it did and justified it all.