Ultra Marine Retcon

[Gree]

I would like to point out though, you are a minority as most people have come out and said they liked Guilliman and his Legion because of the book.

 

And I’m not really quite sure why you are pointing that you, given you have already stated that fact several times before. But in any case it is I have to agree with Legatus in that many people who did not like the Ultramarines now like them because they took a heavy beating and are now made more relatable.

 

It's premature to start pointing fingers at Guilliman. I remember people doing the same when we had the short story Rules of Engagement, one of which was yourself I believe. The criticism was Guilliman should have intercepted or reinforced Terra, and I pointed out then it was premature to condem his inaction until further information has come to light, which it did and justified it all.

 

There is a logical disconnect between Rules of Engagement and KNF. In the short story his own Legion feels that his orders are nonsensical and heretical, Guilliman talks of a difficult choice he has to make, Venatus feels like a traitor and Guilliman talks about how only perhaps the Emperor would understand him.

 

And yet in Know No Fear we get several plausible reasons for why Guilliman cannot move, making the behavior of him and his Legion in Rules of Engagement look rather odd. You could try and reconcile it by stretching it out, but you would have to stretch it.

[Captain Idaho]

I've pointed it out several times because it's been relevant to the subject in hand several times, and the arguments have turned circular. It is a shame the most negative people on the B&C regarding this novel are Ultramarines fans. Maybe a few other sites have the odd criticism levelled at the Ultramarines relating to this novel, but from my travells on Warseer and 40k Online, it's been a minority, one off circumstance rather than a trend.

 

What I'm trying to say is relax and enjoy the ride! It's not as bad as it seemed at first glance.

[Gree]

I've pointed it out several times because it's been relevant to the subject in hand several times, and the arguments have turned circular.

 

Well I guess I should inform you that I am well aware of that. There is no need to state it again and again to me.

 

What I'm trying to say is relax and enjoy the ride! It's not as bad as it seemed at first glance.

 

I’m sorry, there are flaws in this book and I cannot ignore them just because I happen to like Ultramarines.

[Captain Idaho]

I've pointed it out several times because it's been relevant to the subject in hand several times, and the arguments have turned circular.

 

Well I guess I should inform you that I am well aware of that. There is no need to state it again and again to me.

 

If that is your opinion, then perhaps there is no need to state your own criticisms of the book again and again to everyone one the forum?

 

I loved the book and enjoy discussing it, so if I see every topic about has you raising the same objections I will likely respond with the same reply, hence my comment on a circular argument.

[Gree]

If that is your opinion, then perhaps there is no need to state your own criticisms of the book again and again to everyone one the forum?

 

I loved the book and enjoy discussing it, so if I see every topic about has you raising the same objections I will likely respond with the same reply, hence my comment on a circular argument.

 

I do think there is a difference between an opinion and a fact. There is no need to repeat a fact several times.

[Legatus]

It's actually so funny the only people I have read online criticising Guilliman as an empire builder because of this book are supposed Ultramarines fans! You guys are actually making a bigger deal of it than anyone else.

It is three weeks after the novel's release. Give it some time. Wait for the next "which primarch is the biggest jerk" thread. The fact is Guilliman had been criticised as an empire builder in the past. When that had not actually been in the background. Now that is in the background. So next time when someone sets about to voice his dislike for the Character or the Legion, he has Black Library certified support. Or what, are you suggesting that now that the background actually says that, the issue will never be leveled against Guilliman again? Well, maybe. Maybe now everyone likes Guilliman, because of this book. Feeling sorry for him.

[Captain Idaho]

It's actually so funny the only people I have read online criticising Guilliman as an empire builder because of this book are supposed Ultramarines fans! You guys are actually making a bigger deal of it than anyone else.

It is three weeks after the novel's release. Give it some time. Wait for the next "which primarch is the biggest jerk" thread. The fact is Guilliman had been criticised as an empire builder in the past. When that had not actually been in the background. Now that is in the background. So next time when someone sets about to voice his dislike for the Character or the Legion, he has Black Library certified support. Or what, are you suggesting that now that the background actually says that, the issue will never be leveled against Guilliman again? Well, maybe. Maybe now everyone likes Guilliman, because of this book. Feeling sorry for him.

 

If someone raises the accusation of power-hungry tyrant at Guilliman, I would just refute it with the obvious; neither the Emperor nor any of his Primarchs, Malcador or anyone else had a problem Guilliman creating Ultramar, so it can't of been considered anti-Imperium.

 

If you need to go in further detail, you could point out the nuances of "New Empire" referring to the newly formed Imperial planets under the Ultramar umbrella being part of the Imperium and that Guilliman was preparing and creating a new era of "empire" using Ultramar as his project. You can even say how Guilliman often did this; creating tactical treatises for other Imperial formations so they could better themselves.

 

Ultimately there isn't any information to support the claim Guilliman was Empire building, because we don't the context of Ultramar in the greater Imperium, though there is evidence that Guilliman was favoured by the Emperor therefore he must had approval for his creation of Ultramar.

 

Easy peasy.

 

I do think there is a difference between an opinion and a fact. There is no need to repeat a fact several times.

 

I assume you meant repeat an "repeat an opinion several times"? Like I said, if you repeat the same accusation at Guilliman, if I'm engaged in the conversation I'll respond with the same response (provided of course it is in the bounds of the topic and I'm interested).

[Gree]

I assume you meant repeat an "repeat an opinion several times"? Like I said, if you repeat the same accusation at Guilliman, if I'm engaged in the conversation I'll respond with the same response (provided of course it is in the bounds of the topic and I'm interested).

 

No, I mean repeat a fact. Telling me I'm in the minority is a fact while me stating my opinion of the novel is an opinion.

[Octavulg]

If someone raises the accusation of power-hungry tyrant at Guilliman, I would just refute it with the obvious; neither the Emperor nor any of his Primarchs, Malcador or anyone else had a problem Guilliman creating Ultramar, so it can't of been considered anti-Imperium.

 

When it was reported to the Emperor by Magnus that Horus had betrayed him, the Emperor chose to send the Space Wolves after...Magnus.

 

Yeah. His judgment on matters of loyalty was definitely 100%.

[Gree]

If someone raises the accusation of power-hungry tyrant at Guilliman, I would just refute it with the obvious; neither the Emperor nor any of his Primarchs, Malcador or anyone else had a problem Guilliman creating Ultramar, so it can't of been considered anti-Imperium.

 

When it was reported to the Emperor by Magnus that Horus had betrayed him, the Emperor chose to send the Space Wolves after...Magnus.

 

Yeah. His judgment on matters of loyalty was definitely 100%.

 

And depending on the novel (Outcast Dead) the Emperor the Wolves after Magnus even after the news of Istvaan V reached him.

[Legatus]

If someone raises the accusation of power-hungry tyrant at Guilliman, I would just refute it with the obvious; neither the Emperor nor any of his Primarchs, Malcador or anyone else had a problem Guilliman creating Ultramar, so it can't of been considered anti-Imperium.

Oh, it is definitely not anti-imperium. It is not disloyal or treasonous or any of that. It's just greedy and selfish, and power-hungry. That's all.

[Captain Idaho]

If someone raises the accusation of power-hungry tyrant at Guilliman, I would just refute it with the obvious; neither the Emperor nor any of his Primarchs, Malcador or anyone else had a problem Guilliman creating Ultramar, so it can't of been considered anti-Imperium.

 

When it was reported to the Emperor by Magnus that Horus had betrayed him, the Emperor chose to send the Space Wolves after...Magnus.

 

Yeah. His judgment on matters of loyalty was definitely 100%.

 

The damage done by Magnus was 100% justification for sending Russ after him.

[Octavulg]

The damage done by Magnus was 100% justification for sending Russ after him.

 

Maybe. But considering how the Heresy worked out, I'm gonna have to call that a poor judgment call.

[Mantras]

Loved the book, was not really a fan of Ultra's but the book made me want to start them (as most HH books tend to do).

 

Anyways, on the issue of Guilliman being an empire builder, I feel the following points occured to me:

 

1) The purpose of the HH series is to shed light on and expand upon things that are only partially known to 40k players. Just because something has never been expressly mentioned before in 40k, means that a series of books (which essentially provide the opportunity for AND serve to be a big long list of retcons) has full licence to do that.

 

2) If the insinuation that Gulliman was an Empire builder bothers you, does it bother you that every other Primarch got a planet as well? Ruling a whole planet is akin to having an empire itself, by every measure or standard you wish to apply.

 

3) Lastly, Guilliman was an empire builder. As was every other Primarch. That empire was the Imperium.

 

P.S, for those arguing about pre established fluff, wasn't it once "established" that the Ultra's were not even a founding legion? Fluff changes....

[Hyaenidae]

P.S, for those arguing about pre established fluff, wasn't it once "established" that the Ultra's were not even a founding legion? Fluff changes....

 

They also used to have half-eldar serving in their Librarium. I guess we should start arguing if they still exist as well.

[Legatus]

1) The purpose of the HH series is to shed light on and expand upon things that are only partially known to 40k players. Just because something has never been expressly mentioned before in 40k, means that a series of books (which essentially provide the opportunity for AND serve to be a big long list of retcons) has full licence to do that.

The purpose of the HH series is to make GW a lot of money off of the IP they spent over two decades to create. And for that purpose the authors are given full license to toss 15 years of consistent fluff out of the window and make up their own.

 

 

2) If the insinuation that Gulliman was an Empire builder bothers you, does it bother you that every other Primarch got a planet as well? Ruling a whole planet is akin to having an empire itself, by every measure or standard you wish to apply.

 

3) Lastly, Guilliman was an empire builder. As was every other Primarch. That empire was the Imperium.

Missing the point by a mile there...

[Captain Semper]

Haven't read the book, so my comment is of general nature. First off I agree with Mantras take. Fluff changes. However if this is done in a way that alienates loyal players of a faction that have spend tons of time and money on said faction because of the image that was supported by GW since 2nd edition when things started to be properly codified then it's not cool.

 

Having said that the HH generally is trying to apply various shades of gray on EVERY Primarch. The traditionally bad guys are not so bad in some light and the same applies for the good guys... There is enough there to leave a question mark.

 

Anyway, my 2c.

[A D-B]

The purpose of the HH series is to make GW a lot of money off of the IP they spent over two decades to create. And for that purpose the authors are given full license to toss 15 years of consistent fluff out of the window and make up their own.

 

Dude. Come on.

 

It's actually regulated pretty strictly by the IP department. It's just that, for you, consistency with old fluff is of primary importance. It falls much lower on the list for the IP department and most of the HH team, especially when ideas are put forward that someone believes is an improvement, or is specifically to show something that's never been explained or shown before.

[Octavulg]

Someone thought secret twin and alien conspiracy was an improvement?

[A D-B]

Someone thought secret twin and alien conspiracy was an improvement?

 

You don't, clearly. All good. The twins thing isn't something I hear much negativity about personally; quite the opposite, in fact. It's seemed incredibly popular beyond a few "BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT" internet outrages, mixed in with genuine criticism and opinion. Either way, it's irrelevant; I never said anyone believed that aspect was an improvement - it's very clearly been noted many times (including many times on this forum over several years) that it was always a studio deal, and IP asked Dan to include it.

 

But even so, I don't need to go into a blow-by-blow of the minutiae. The HH series is strictly monitored by the IP department. To suggest otherwise is wrong. End of story.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The HH series is strictly monitored by the IP department.

 

Is The Vision^TM dictated by a set of principles for the IP Department to follow, or does it evolve through staff interactions? I know you say about ideas being proposed and some maybe seen as improvements but are there constraints - apart from the absurd - beyond that?

[Legatus]

The purpose of the HH series is to make GW a lot of money off of the IP they spent over two decades to create. And for that purpose the authors are given full license to toss 15 years of consistent fluff out of the window and make up their own.

 

Dude. Come on.

 

It's actually regulated pretty strictly by the IP department. It's just that, for you, consistency with old fluff is of primary importance. It falls much lower on the list for the IP department and most of the HH team, especially when ideas are put forward that someone believes is an improvement, or is specifically to show something that's never been explained or shown before.

Perhaps that was overly cynical on my part. Previously it had mainly been the Legion sizes. Sonething that had deeply been rooted in a lot of background (such as the number of Second Founding Chapters, the Space Wolves and their 13 Companies, the Salamanders and their 7) and I felt was very unfortunate. But that had obviously been a management decision, not one by one particular author. Other than that the Horus Heresy story seemed mostly been loads and loads of new characters and new battles we had never heard of before. That's ok. Though it took me a while before I understood who that "Loken" guy was everyone kept talking about.

But Dan Abnett in particular seemed to turn the Legions he writed about on their heads. The Alpha Legion is now very different than past Chaos codices would have us believe. (Yeah, I get it "all part of the plan", wink wink.) The Space Wolves have gone from the ruffians who stick up for the little guys to the most terrifying of all the Legions. Now he has done the Battle for Calth, and I had a feeling it would not be much like the accounts we previously had. That might just be a coincidence, and somehow Dan allways ends up writing the books where management intends fundamentally change that Legions background. But then I remember interviews prior to "Prospero Burns", where Dan admitted that he was not a particular fan of the Space Wolves. So I cannot help but feel that this is not so much on the management after all. Was it a management decision to have the battle for Calth go nothing like what had been described in the Collected Visions book? Was it a management decision to have Chapters of 10,000 Marines, instead of 1,000? To have Ultramar consist of 500 worlds instead of eight (or nine, before the Tyranids ate Prandium)? To remove Lorgar, I can see, since that was planned at least by several of the authors and that thread will be continued in future books. But I am sceptical as to whether the other changes were imposed on Dan.

[Unintentional Batman]

Someone thought secret twin and alien conspiracy was an improvement?

 

Legion was the thing that singlehandedly brought me back into playing 40K and starting to read the Horus Heresy books after tuning out after the mindbendingly awesome Rogue Trader/Ian Watson era. It's still the only piece of gaming fiction that I believe would work even without the trappings and the trademark of the game setting it is placed in - as a regular scifi/thriller. And yes, the whole twins thing and Cabal were key elements in making it doubleplusgood.

[Gree]

2) If the insinuation that Gulliman was an Empire builder bothers you, does it bother you that every other Primarch got a planet as well? Ruling a whole planet is akin to having an empire itself, by every measure or standard you wish to apply.

 

3) Lastly, Guilliman was an empire builder. As was every other Primarch. That empire was the Imperium.

 

I think there is a rather big difference between ruling one planet and ruling five hundred planets. :)

 

It's actually regulated pretty strictly by the IP department. It's just that, for you, consistency with old fluff is of primary importance. It falls much lower on the list for the IP department and most of the HH team, especially when ideas are put forward that someone believes is an improvement, or is specifically to show something that's never been explained or shown before.

 

Well I think my main issue with that is the fact that many of these fluff changes seem nonsensical and unnecessary. Take the five hundred worlds for example. Why was that needed? One could have had the Ultramarines rule eight worlds in Know No Fear and the plot would have been largely the same with only a minor rewrite needed. Similarly the whole thing reducing Guilliman’s role in the battle was unnecessary.

 

That, and I hope you don’t take this the wrong way sir, but I’ve seen some rather glaring inconsistences between the novels. For example Tarvitz being First Captain in Flight of the Eisenstein when other books explicitly contradict that, the same Titan changing sizes between False Gods and Galaxy in Flames, the disconnect between Rules of Engagement and Know No Fear,, the changing Legion numbers and the massive timeline issue with Outcast Dead.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I thought Abnett and McNeill have done a fantastic job portraying Guilliman as a paragon of good who truly strove to fulfill his potential as a Primarch. I have always pictured Robby G to be more of a Caesar (with all the negative and positive connotations) but is more along the lines of a Antoninus Pius or a Marcus Aurelius in his motivations. Yes, Guilliman created an empire and a power base from which he intended to stabilize a crumbling Empire. To his credit Guilliman did not do these things out of avarice, pride or egotism but instead worked for the greater good (ick) of the Imperium and Mankind. I thought Guilliman was made into a very human and likeable character (for me at least) when even his best laid plans and preparations are lain low at Calth and how he was ill-prepared for that battle and battles to come even with his prior planning.

 

I used to despise Robby G (always like the UMs as paragons) as a grasper and a power-grabber who I imagined hung back from the war for personal gain after the Emperor's fall. Instead he was playing the entire game all along without even knowing the opening moves occurred and with an idea how the end game would play out when all others were blinded by Chaos, personal emotions yadda yadda. It is through his actions that we are given the stalemate of modern 40k. I used to think that was a curse and bane on the existence of GW's Humanity but I am looking at it through my own distorted worldview. 40k life is short, nasty and brutish because for humanity to survive it is necessary for it to be. The other alternatives would be destruction or slavery and we all know how nice the Dark Eldar and Lost and Damned are. Guilliman helped setup this eternal stalemate, enabling no individual or entity(ies) of the Imperium to achieve total victory (Chaos Win) and no enemy of mankind able to defeat the Imperial machine. So anyways, I am a fan now :)