Ultra Marine Retcon

[karden00]

Someone thought secret twin and alien conspiracy was an improvement?

 

 

BRAVO

[Octavulg]

A D-B

You don't, clearly. All good. The twins thing isn't something I hear much negativity about personally; quite the opposite, in fact. It's seemed incredibly popular beyond a few "BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT" internet outrages, mixed in with genuine criticism and opinion.

 

No offense, A D-B, but ever since I saw some people on TheForce.net complaining that a Star Wars book from 1997 was incompatible with the prequel trilogy and that this was the author's fault, I've been a little cynical about the quality assessment skills of the average fan.

 

The idea's never held up to much consideration, IMO. Most obviously, wouldn't someone notice the OTHER eight foot son of the Emperor when they found Alpharius? What'd they do, sneak him in as part of Alpharius' luggage? "Hey, Horus, nice to meet you. By the way, we need to stop off at that nearby planet so I can pick up a large crate with some airholes in it. Oh, nothing you need to worry about." :)

 

Either way, it's irrelevant; I never said anyone believed that aspect was an improvement - it's very clearly been noted many times (including many times on this forum over several years) that it was always a studio deal, and IP asked Dan to include it.

 

My impression was that, if it existed before this, it was as a broad idea that might or might not be true, rather than a definite piece of the universe that simply hadn't been explicitly included in print. I'd still characterize that as a change, even if it didn't necessarily flow from the author.

 

* * *

 

Unintentional Batman

Legion was the thing that singlehandedly brought me back into playing 40K and starting to read the Horus Heresy books after tuning out after the mindbendingly awesome Rogue Trader/Ian Watson era. It's still the only piece of gaming fiction that I believe would work even without the trappings and the trademark of the game setting it is placed in - as a regular scifi/thriller. And yes, the whole twins thing and Cabal were key elements in making it doubleplusgood.

 

...The book that specifically ties into one of the most universe-altering events of the 40K universe would work better without the trappings of 40K than the Ciaphas Cain series or A D-B's Night Lords series?

 

OK...

[Retributis]

He didn't say would work BETTER, he just said it would WORK.

 

*facepalm*

[Legatus]

My impression was that, if it existed before this, it was as a broad idea that might or might not be true, rather than a definite piece of the universe that simply hadn't been explicitly included in print.

Oh, it had not "existed" before. Not in any 40K publication anyway. But apparently that idea had been floating round the studio for some years. I don't think A D-B's point is that this was not a change. It's more that this was not something an individual author came up and got away with. It was suggested by the Studio as a possible "big revelation" for Dans novel. He wanted to include some big revelation, and had approached the editors/IP department with a list of suggestions on his own, and then someone suggested the twins twist. Or so the story goes.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Everything you have been told is a lie!

[greatcrusade08]

A D-B

You don't, clearly. All good. The twins thing isn't something I hear much negativity about personally; quite the opposite, in fact. It's seemed incredibly popular beyond a few "BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT" internet outrages, mixed in with genuine criticism and opinion.

 

No offense, A D-B, but ever since I saw some people on TheForce.net complaining that a Star Wars book from 1997 was incompatible with the prequel trilogy and that this was the author's fault, I've been a little cynical about the quality assessment skills of the average fan. :jaw:

 

to be fair, we are all fans here.. and out of the tens of thousands of B&C forum members its usually the same half dozen or so that are so outspoken.

this is not star wars, the canon in 40k is ever changing, IMO its soo much bigger than any other sci-fi setting becuase there is way much more mystery, a huge amount of unchartered territory.

nothing in 40k is ever black and white..

 

and for the record, i really liked the addition of a twin, wasnt sold at first, but it really adds alot of mystery, and it can never be a bad thing in a long running story to ask many more questions after a single book.. to me it indicates the book was successful.

 

and lets face it the horus heresy ending is known, we are not going to get to the end and suddenly horus capital ship lowers its shields and gets obliterated by terras defences.. we know whats going to happen.

so the trick is to create alot of drama inbetween to keep us interested, the horus heresy isnt about the destination, its all aout the journey..

and a little mystery goes along way, especially when the ending is spoiled for us.

 

The idea's never held up to much consideration, IMO. Most obviously, wouldn't someone notice the OTHER eight foot son of the Emperor when they found Alpharius? What'd they do, sneak him in as part of Alpharius' luggage? "Hey, Horus, nice to meet you. By the way, we need to stop off at that nearby planet so I can pick up a large crate with some airholes in it. Oh, nothing you need to worry about." :D

 

i thought the twins were said to be smaller than thier counterparts, yes it raises questions about how primarches cant sense the presence of omegon, but maybe in the splicing of the one soul, alpharius got the major share, like walt and bob tenor with thier liver.. who knows.

and the fact we dont currently know is exciting, makes we want to know..

 

these retcons are worthwhile IMO, i know you disagree but it would be a boring world if we agreed all the time.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think the whole Twin thing is made worse because for a lot of people, even some with a lot of years in the hobby, the sudden addition of this Twin with "Well, it's been bandied about for years at Studio level.." just doesn't seem like a solid explanation.

 

Obviously it is the explanation, but as has been said we're all fans/InterWebz Nerds here and so we often disagree with The Way Things Are^TM.

[Octavulg]

Retributis

He didn't say would work BETTER, he just said it would WORK.

 

The point was that the Night Lords and Ciaphas Cain books would both work better without 40K than Legion would without 40K.

 

And yes, the way I wrote my post was a perfectly valid way to express that. :)

 

* * *

greatcrusade

to be fair, we are all fans here.. and out of the tens of thousands of B&C forum members its usually the same half dozen or so that are so outspoken.

this is not star wars, the canon in 40k is ever changing, IMO its soo much bigger than any other sci-fi setting becuase there is way much more mystery, a huge amount of unchartered territory.

 

Star Wars canon changes quite regularly. Usually for the worse. :P

 

I'd like the twin idea a bit better if it made much sense. I'd like it better than that if every time I talked about Alpharius' secret twin I didn't have a vision of some guy in a stovepipe hat twirling his mustachios and cackling.

 

i thought the twins were said to be smaller than thier counterparts, yes it raises questions about how primarches cant sense the presence of omegon, but maybe in the splicing of the one soul, alpharius got the major share, like walt and bob tenor with thier liver.. who knows.

and the fact we dont currently know is exciting, makes we want to know..

 

I believe Alpharius and Omegon are smaller than normal Primarchs but are still bigger than Space Marines.

 

If I thought there'd ever be an explanation, I'd be a lot less cynical about this. :P

 

[greatcrusade08]

I think the whole Twin thing is made worse because for a lot of people, even some with a lot of years in the hobby, the sudden addition of this Twin with "Well, it's been bandied about for years at Studio level.." just doesn't seem like a solid explanation.

 

why should the writers/IP guys need to explain every twist and every decision?

the bottom line in writing is that you cant please everyone all the time, since the majority seem happy then whats the problem?

 

@Octy, dont get me wrong, sometimes id like to see better backstories when they add in a a big change like a twin.. id have gone with seperated at birth on different worlds, omegon was discovered by his twin sometime after he joined the imperium, a secret they kept hidden from outsiders

[The 13th Goat]

Someone thought secret twin and alien conspiracy was an improvement?

 

I did, for one. The Alpha Legion had nothing in the way of individuality before Legion; just tactically sound espionage specialists in an age when that was largely redundant. Legion gave the Alpha Legion a story. Yes there are slight difficulties; Primarch height and size being the major one. But does it damage the fabric of the Legion? I challenge you to come with a better concept for a legion who are famous for their hydra symbolism.

 

The alien conspiracy? I think it makes sense; the Eldar and other more warp sensitive races seeing what is happening and trying to stop it. They made overtures in Fulgrim, and everyone just shrugged. Why would that be the only attempt to stop Chaos getting nearly half of the most dangerous fighting force in the galaxy?

 

 

It's actually regulated pretty strictly by the IP department. It's just that, for you, consistency with old fluff is of primary importance. It falls much lower on the list for the IP department and most of the HH team, especially when ideas are put forward that someone believes is an improvement, or is specifically to show something that's never been explained or shown before.

Perhaps that was overly cynical on my part. Previously it had mainly been the Legion sizes. Sonething that had deeply been rooted in a lot of background (such as the number of Second Founding Chapters, the Space Wolves and their 13 Companies, the Salamanders and their 7) and I felt was very unfortunate. But that had obviously been a management decision, not one by one particular author.

 

But Dan Abnett in particular seemed to turn the Legions he writed about on their heads. The Alpha Legion is now very different than past Chaos codices would have us believe. (Yeah, I get it "all part of the plan", wink wink.) The Space Wolves have gone from the ruffians who stick up for the little guys to the most terrifying of all the Legions. Now he has done the Battle for Calth, and I had a feeling it would not be much like the accounts we previously had. That might just be a coincidence, and somehow Dan allways ends up writing the books where management intends fundamentally change that Legions background. But then I remember interviews prior to "Prospero Burns", where Dan admitted that he was not a particular fan of the Space Wolves. So I cannot help but feel that this is not so much on the management after all. Was it a management decision to have the battle for Calth go nothing like what had been described in the Collected Visions book? Was it a management decision to have Chapters of 10,000 Marines, instead of 1,000? To have Ultramar consist of 500 worlds instead of eight (or nine, before the Tyranids ate Prandium)? To remove Lorgar, I can see, since that was planned at least by several of the authors and that thread will be continued in future books. But I am sceptical as to whether the other changes were imposed on Dan.

 

I have trimmed this a bit, Legz, but only so my post doesn't turn into a monster.

 

Me and you have had this argument before, where you stalwartly defend the older cannon and challenge certain things that runs contrary to it. As I pointed out before, most fiction on the heresy up to that point was designed as the distant past, with details sketchy at best. Things like Legion sizes are fair game in my opinion. I will get to your exceptions, but the simple fact is this; this is the cannon now (retcon or not).

 

On your major points:

1. The "new" Alpha Legion canon has been changed to actually improve the Alpha Legion story; up till that point the legion and Primarch's story and motivations were far weaker. They were the vanilla Chaos marines.
   
2. The Space Wolves being portrayed as friendly "space drunks" undermined the initial concept of the Wolves; the Vikings of old were not rough around the edges heroes. They were merciless, violent warriors that got the job done. I for one find this darker portrayle much more in keeping the overall Grim Dark. (This being said, your version of the Space Wolves still exists, just in the 40'000 millennium.)
   
3. The Battle of Calth was actually really well done; the shock of the betrayal and decimation of the Ultramarine forces was executed in a sensible and believable way. Things like chapter sizes and the librarian question was answered, and while running counter to previous descriptions makes sense. After all, 2/3rds of the legion fell that day. Re-organizing the Chapters to be smaller makes sense afterwards, as smaller forces would be more mobile.
   

 

P.S I hope your a bit further through the Heresy, Legs! I hate having our enjoyable debates when only one of us has actually read the offending piece!

[Unintentional Batman]

...The book that specifically ties into one of the most universe-altering events of the 40K universe would work better without the trappings of 40K than the Ciaphas Cain series or A D-B's Night Lords series?

 

Yup. The only really 40K thing in the whole book is the presence of Alpha Legion - make them into some other sneaky space-CIA bunch, and the book is basically generic science fiction. Cain is way too deeply invested in the style of 40K*, haven't read Night Lords books, but as they are Marine books in a much bigger way than Legion was (AL really is a bit player in the story), I don't see how they could work without being tied to the game setting. What I am saying is that Abnett's Legion is well written enough it could maybe survive even without the trademark and familiar names/faces to boost sales and the little amount of actual 40K baggage it has (don't be fooled by the Horus Heresy title, it's really pretty minor thing in the storyline) would allow writing those things out. ADB seems about as good, in my opinion, but the only book of his I have read, First Heretic is again much more closely 40Kish than Legion was.

 

Then again, Ian Watson's Draco books are by far the best Warhammer books (and best gaming fiction) I have read, but they would not work removed from 40K nearly as well as Legion would.

 

*even if it's really just Flashman in space :unsure:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think the whole Twin thing is made worse because for a lot of people, even some with a lot of years in the hobby, the sudden addition of this Twin with "Well, it's been bandied about for years at Studio level.." just doesn't seem like a solid explanation.

 

why should the writers/IP guys need to explain every twist and every decision?

the bottom line in writing is that you cant please everyone all the time, since the majority seem happy then whats the problem?

 

Evry twist and decision? No, but major things should at least have some sort of explanation.

 

As for "majority", where is this majority?

 

Majority of people who post on this board? On Internet forums? Of people who make their opinions known? "Majority", as you can see, isn't as clean cut as you think.

[Jareddm]

What I am saying is that Abnett's Legion is well written enough it could maybe survive even without the trademark and familiar names/faces to boost sales and the little amount of actual 40K baggage it has (don't be fooled by the Horus Heresy title, it's really pretty minor thing in the storyline) would allow writing those things out.

In the past, this exact point has been the lynchpin to the argument against Abnett. That books like Eisenhorn and the Gaunt's Ghosts series feel distant from the 40k universe and that nothing is added to these books by saying they exist within it. I assume these same arguments would be used against Legion.

 

Not that I agree with that argument, I just find it funny that you're using that point in favor of Abnett.

[greatcrusade08]

As for "majority", where is this majority?

 

Majority of people who post on this board? On Internet forums? Of people who make their opinions known? "Majority", as you can see, isn't as clean cut as you think.

 

in buisiness the majority is seen in the end result... £££$$$

they are a dozen or so books into the series and yet people keep buying them in record numbers.. would that really happen if the majoiryt was dissatisfied.

i know i wouldnt buy any more books if i was unhappy with thier direction

[Unintentional Batman]

In the past, this exact point has been the lynchpin to the argument against Abnett. That books like Eisenhorn and the Gaunt's Ghosts series feel distant from the 40k universe and that nothing is added to these books by saying they exist within it. I assume these same arguments would be used against Legion.

 

Not that I agree with that argument, I just find it funny that you're using that point in favor of Abnett.

 

Heh, I know. But I judge these books solely on the literary level (as much as it pains me to do so in many cases, gaming fiction and literature should not be mentioned in the same sentence most of the time) and don't really care what they bring to the table for the 40K setting. If I enjoy the book, good. That's all... I gave up on the "canon" long ago, many of the things I loved the most have been retconned away by GW so I am basically deciding on my own what is true and what is not. I happened to pick up Legion basically by chance, and that brought me back to 40K gaming, but I read Abnett's books not cause they are 40K books, but because I enjoy Abnett's writing.

 

*hugs the nearest Squat*

[TennisBall]

Just a quick point to make that I think can help this argument greatly. I understand that vets hate when GW messes with their fluff from 2nd ed and such, but you have to remember, back then it was only a game, written by people who had no credentials for writing or "universe building." They did a pretty good job but just look at it as the base work. Now we have real authors coming in needing to make logical sense of what was previously written. That means stuff is going to change.

The larger size of legions and space is fine, but they haven't fully thought it through.

A 30K era Ultramarines Company is led by a captain, fine. However it appears that his command is now made up of 100 squads led by sergeants. How does a captain of a frontline battle unit keep control over that many? If you say each squad can fight on its own then what's the point of the captain at all?

 

If weapons exist that have the range of 150 million km (93 million mi) then they would exist on Terra (or in orbit or Luna) at which point the fleet of Horus would have been blasted out of the solar system in the blink of an eye. This apparently is the range of the defence grid that orbits Calth. I'm assuming Calth is a similar distance from its star as we are to ours as the planets seem to be similar with oceans, forests, deserts and similar gravity. The defence grid of course being used to attack Calth's sun eventually causing the planet surface to be stripped of life.

 

Guilliman is unaware of the Heresy because (option A) warp storms are preventing messages getting through or (option 'B') the Word Bearers have arrived so quickly after Istvaan III (or is it Istvaan V) that information has not got out yet. The whole timeline is confusing as hell, what happened to the nice timescale that was created such as 01999M31. If that were used it would clear things up instead of "stuff happens" and the universe is so big that we'll fudge the relationships between actions and hope no one will notice.

 

Now we have real authors coming in needing to make logical sense of what was previously written

If only.

 

 

 

If only.

[Octavulg]

13th Goat

I did, for one. The Alpha Legion had nothing in the way of individuality before Legion; just tactically sound espionage specialists in an age when that was largely redundant. Legion gave the Alpha Legion a story. Yes there are slight difficulties; Primarch height and size being the major one. But does it damage the fabric of the Legion? I challenge you to come with a better concept for a legion who are famous for their hydra symbolism.

 

First and foremost, surely the lack of individuality was part of the hydra symbolism? Unless you mean character, in which case you were evidently reading about a different Alpha Legion. The Alpha Legion had plenty of character.

 

Second, I'm not sure the twin symbolism really helps the hydra symbology that much. It's still two points of possible failure. Hydras are infinite. The whole point is that when you strike one down, two more rise in its place.

 

As to better concepts than twins that represent sneakiness/hydraness: the most obvious would be that Alpharius' geneseed warps the Alpha Legionaires to actually become Alpharius. I know it does so physically, but mentally, too. Whenever Alpharius is killed, the nearest Alpha Legionnaire is so similar in mentality that his warp presence simply slips into that body. Wouldn't come up for a while, of course.

 

The option I like better is that Alpharius regularly shares his blood with his fellow marines (or just his immediate commanders), so they share his memories etc. After a while, they all are basically Alpharius. Could even have every marine share every other marine's blood, but that would seem to be pushing it. Perhaps among units. There's an Alpharius with a Primarch's body, but otherwise...

 

The final option would be to have Alpharius rarely, if ever, appear publicly. He issues commands very only occasionally - a council of commanders makes almost all decisions. Alpharius, of course, is one of these commanders, though few other marines (if any) know it. He'd have to get even smaller, but that's workable.

 

The alien conspiracy? I think it makes sense; the Eldar and other more warp sensitive races seeing what is happening and trying to stop it. They made overtures in Fulgrim, and everyone just shrugged. Why would that be the only attempt to stop Chaos getting nearly half of the most dangerous fighting force in the galaxy?

 

It doesn't actually bug me that much. Others, OTOH, have been greatly put out by it. They were just the two most obvious examples that sprang to mind.

 

* * *

Unintentional Batman

Cain is way too deeply invested in the style of 40K*,

 

Soviet Commissar in the Civil War or early Second World War. It'd work. Tastelessly, but it'd work. :unsure:

 

haven't read Night Lords books, but as they are Marine books in a much bigger way than Legion was (AL really is a bit player in the story), I don't see how they could work without being tied to the game setting.

 

Since I remain convinced that the Night Lords books are, at least to some extent, the Black Company in space (I don't know if it's intentional or not, but there are a lot of parallels), I think that the stories would work very well without Space Marines.

 

Also, read the Night Lords books. They're excellent.

[Legatus]

Also, read the Night Lords books. They're excellent.

When he says that, he means the Soul Hunter series. Not the other one. ;)

[TennisBall]

Last I looked neither Alpharius nor Omegon were members of the Ultramarines. If you guys want to talk about twins etc start a new thread, this one is for the Ultramarines.

[The 13th Goat]

First and foremost, surely the lack of individuality was part of the hydra symbolism? Unless you mean character, in which case you were evidently reading about a different Alpha Legion. The Alpha Legion had plenty of character.

 

Second, I'm not sure the twin symbolism really helps the hydra symbology that much. It's still two points of possible failure. Hydras are infinite. The whole point is that when you strike one down, two more rise in its place.

 

As to better concepts than twins that represent sneakiness/hydraness: the most obvious would be that Alpharius' geneseed warps the Alpha Legionaires to actually become Alpharius. I know it does so physically, but mentally, too. Whenever Alpharius is killed, the nearest Alpha Legionnaire is so similar in mentality that his warp presence simply slips into that body. Wouldn't come up for a while, of course.

 

The option I like better is that Alpharius regularly shares his blood with his fellow marines (or just his immediate commanders), so they share his memories etc. After a while, they all are basically Alpharius. Could even have every marine share every other marine's blood, but that would seem to be pushing it. Perhaps among units. There's an Alpharius with a Primarch's body, but otherwise...

 

The final option would be to have Alpharius rarely, if ever, appear publicly. He issues commands very only occasionally - a council of commanders makes almost all decisions. Alpharius, of course, is one of these commanders, though few other marines (if any) know it. He'd have to get even smaller, but that's workable.

 

Wow. Challenge accepted and succeeded, brother! Those are both great ideas. I was a bit arsey with you, and apologize. But in all honesty, I think the Twin thing is a simple, yet ingenious way of developing the Alpha Legion. Forgive me for the brain fart, but the Alpha Legion before weren't that discript, were they? I mean, they were overly tactical and obsessed with perfect planning, even at the expense of speed and efficiency for the sake of their martial pride. But that's it. It wasn't widely different from the Raven Guard, just Rupert Gillian had an issue with them.

[A D-B]

A D-B

You don't, clearly. All good. The twins thing isn't something I hear much negativity about personally; quite the opposite, in fact. It's seemed incredibly popular beyond a few "BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT" internet outrages, mixed in with genuine criticism and opinion.

 

No offense, A D-B, but ever since I saw some people on TheForce.net complaining that a Star Wars book from 1997 was incompatible with the prequel trilogy and that this was the author's fault, I've been a little cynical about the quality assessment skills of the average fan. :)

 

You make a persuasive argument.

 

My impression was that, if it existed before this, it was as a broad idea that might or might not be true, rather than a definite piece of the universe that simply hadn't been explicitly included in print.

Oh, it had not "existed" before. Not in any 40K publication anyway. But apparently that idea had been floating round the studio for some years. I don't think A D-B's point is that this was not a change. It's more that this was not something an individual author came up and got away with. It was suggested by the Studio as a possible "big revelation" for Dans novel. He wanted to include some big revelation, and had approached the editors/IP department with a list of suggestions on his own, and then someone suggested the twins twist. Or so the story goes.

 

For really reals. Of course, then you can go deeper, into territory of who "deserves" to be able to change canon, and so on. The current answer is, natch, "pretty much everyone", with 40K's open-ended setting showing itself more and more clearly as time goes on. But even so, the dynamics are fascinating, on both sides of the fence. But it's easy enough to see that the less you explain something (i.e. a few paragraphs in a Codex) the easier it is not to conflict with anything else.

 

I'll be coldly honest, here. Ice cold. As someone who's changed a bit here and there, I still tend to err on the side of "adding" and "fleshing out" rather than customising the setting to making wholesale revelations. Dan, on the other hand... Well, bear in mind I'll probably cut and paste this and send it to him, so we can chat about it next time we meet up - but Dan (like some of the others, but especially him) operates on a different policy. I don't say it's worse. It's certainly bigger and grander than my level, but it's also less careful, because it's flat-out bolder. I don't lack imagination, but I'm very conservative when it comes to the IP. I didn't write about the Night Lords Legion. I wrote about a few Night Lords, who were representative of some of the views in the legion, and who had several conflicts over ideaology, as well as conversations mentioning other aspects. With The First Heretic, my Word Bearers weren't the best at anything. They were a Legion lost, trying to find itself. With Betrayer, although we have to create and shape seven "new" years of galactic civil war, I'm trying not to make any massive waves that conflict too much with previously established lore. In the Heresy, that's next to impossible sometimes, but I digress.

 

Dan knows what he's doing, as he's a veteran in this and many other genres and mediums. He's writing as a hired gun for a license, and knows his jazz damn well. I hesitate to say "fan service", as that comes with negative connotations which I don't think are fair, but Dan's writing is often mould-breaking and big, big, big. He's writing to please fans, and he does it like a boss. Fans want their factions to look good, and Dan does that with aplomb. His Space Wolves are noted as being the Space Marines who kill other Space Marines by Imperial mandate, and several characters in the novel comment that the Wolves are simply the best warriors in the Legiones Astartes. Unreliable, in-character bias? Sure, maybe. But it gets a lot of mention. The largest Marine fandom are validated by having their faction shown as the toughest, best Marines in the setting. Dan invented a primordial language for Chaos, and threaded it into several novels. Dan's characters become the first humans ever to see Tyranids. Dan showed the revelation of a primarch having a twin. The list goes on. Dan goes big and bold, almost all the time. Fans love that. If you look at the most popular novels in any license, especially 40K, they usually follow a similar pattern. Take Lord of the Night. Awesome book, excellently written, but it also showed a Night Lord from the Heresy, discussing primarchs and Heresy-era lore, in a time in the setting when there was no Heresy lore at all. More than that, he was apparently the most important Night Lord ever, and claimed to have invented the most badass Chaos troops, and was also the heir to a primarch's magic items. He bled importance and "better-than-everyone-else-ness" - and most of all, he did it in a time when there was no other information from that mythic age available. Even more severe, he changed the entire theme of the Legion, from all their published material to a "we're really the good guys, who were betrayed by the Emperor" theme, which is absolute fan candy. In licensed fiction, that's how you garner attention and reader affection. If you do it, you don't even have to write well, as evidenced in many novels that are technically average, but very beloved. (LotN is, however, just awesome.)

 

Dan exemplifies a style often seen in licensed fiction, no matter what license, of taking the setting and adding massive, vital aspects to it. That's his deal. It's how he rolls. Interestingly, I think it's an attitude you see more in writers who get into 40K, rather than 40K fans who become writers, because I see Jim Swallow do it a lot, as well. I admire their brass balls. I love their imagination and conviction. I certainly don't think it's fan service in any way as a negative. But, especially where Dan is concerned, when he tackles a faction they become the biggest, brightest and best, either in obvious ways, or through previously unseen revelations.

 

If you don't like the changes, I can see why Dan's style will annoy people. But the fact remains he's the master at making factions look amazing, and his record speaks for itself. Although it's unfair to someone of Dan's writing chops, the easiest way to get decent reviews in licensed fiction (especially 40K) is to show a popular faction as being excellently competent, and to show new lore - especially new, secret, major lore. Dan does both, almost every time. He just happens to also be an excellent writer. But he could take that approach and still write fairly mediocrely. The results wouldn't be as spectacular as his sales and stuff is now, but his sales would still be great, and his reviews would be "good" (rather than awesome).

 

Similarly, Fear to Tread is something I genuinely struggle to understand why people could ever have doubts about. The Blood Angels will be shown as awesome, perhaps even the best - with a primarch famous for being the most loved in the fandom - and there's already hints released that there'll be some new, major lore involved. That book, about such a massively popular Marine faction, will storm onto the NYT Bestseller list just as Know No Fear did, and please hundreds of thousands of fans. It could be written badly, and still do incredibly well on those two points. But it won't be written badly, as Jim will make it rock, just like Flight of the Awesomestein.

[Legatus]

I hesitate to say "fan service", as that comes with negative connotations which I don't think are fair, but Dan's writing is often mould-breaking and big, big, big. He's writing to please fans, and he does it like a boss. Fans want their factions to look good, and Dan does that with aplomb.

(...)

If you don't like the changes, I can see why Dan's style will annoy people. But the fact remains he's the master at making factions look amazing, and his record speaks for itself.

And then it fell to him to write about the Battle for Calth, since BL wanted to get that book out of the way so they could progress chronologically with the rest of the books. So he thought "I'll try something different this time". :)

[Kol Saresk]

I see Jim Swallow do it a lot, as well. I admire their brass balls.

I'm pretty sure your number of fans who are Blood Angels Fanatics just dropped like an anchor in water. But hey, you get props from me! :)

 

If it's actually worth anything that is.

[Octavulg]

13th Goat

Wow. Challenge accepted and succeeded, brother!

 

^_^

 

Those are both great ideas. I was a bit arsey with you, and apologize.

 

No worries. If I wasn't snide to you here, I'm almost 100% certain I have been in the past. :P

 

But in all honesty, I think the Twin thing is a simple, yet ingenious way of developing the Alpha Legion. Forgive me for the brain fart, but the Alpha Legion before weren't that discript, were they? I mean, they were overly tactical and obsessed with perfect planning, even at the expense of speed and efficiency for the sake of their martial pride. But that's it. It wasn't widely different from the Raven Guard, just Rupert Gillian had an issue with them.

 

I'd argue there are some distinctions from the Raven Guard. The Raven Guard are about stealth. The Alpha Legion are about intelligence and planning. The two often end up in the same place, but there are differences.

 

But more importantly, the Alpha Legion were insecure. They're the only Legion that isn't convinced they're the greatest Legion there ever was. The Alpha Legion were the only ones who might have turned traitor just to prove they were as good as the other legions. Considering the ridiculous arrogance displayed by pretty much every legion, that's a rather unusual trait.

 

That, and I'd say the Raven Guard need characterization more than the Alpha Legion. I mean, the Alpha Legion may be the stealthy marines, but they really pour their hearts into it. :P

 

* * *

 

A D-B

 

I like your way better. Not because it doesn't mess with what I already know (though that's incredibly convenient ;)), but because the less over-the-top and AWESOME! things are, the better everything else often is. Big, bold strokes aren't incompatible with depth, characterization, subtlety and long-term quality. But they sure do make it easier to skimp on them. ;)

 

TL;DR: Big bold strokes are exciting. I'd rather read something interesting.

 

* * *

 

Ultramarines are blue. They remain blue in Fear to Tread. This pleases me, since I like consistency.

 

My post is topical now, right? ;)

[ninja6fett]

I really like both Dan's style as well as ADB's. The heresy is pretty broadly sketched, and honestly was never extremely codified in my opinion. That's why it doesn't bother me when they change legion sizes and what not. It is yet another example of actual writers vs. game designers. That and space is freaking huge, you NEED more men they were stated to have. It's mentioned in another thread that the poster wouldn't be surprised if GW ends up retconning 40k chapters to be 10000 marines instead of 1000. And I'd be okay with that too. Retcons aren't what bother me in the HH, inconsistencies between authors can, but that's due to how tightly written the series has been, so these inconsistencies stick out more than they would otherwise.

 

Something that isn't a problem with the heresy, but is with present day 40k is that there is an event horizon with 999 M41. Eventually BL will have mapped out all the actions of major chapters in that year and then will be stuck with the choice to advance the story or go back to the past, leaving behind the current beleoved characters. (I hope GW will finally advance it, I know it could be done well, heck, if Dan Abnett is so good with sweeping changes, make him in charge of doing it ^_^ )