Ultra Marine Retcon

[Iron Lord]

Something that isn't a problem with the heresy, but is with present day 40k is that there is an event horizon with 999 M41. Eventually BL will have mapped out all the actions of major chapters in that year and then will be stuck with the choice to advance the story or go back to the past, leaving behind the current beleoved characters. (I hope GW will finally advance it, I know it could be done well, heck, if Dan Abnett is so good with sweeping changes, make him in charge of doing it :) )

 

Rob Sanders has already done it with Atlas Infernal- most of which is set after the events of the Eye of Terror campaign, and after the excommunication of the Relictors.

[Pulse]

Rob Sanders has already done it with Atlas Infernal- most of which is set after the events of the Eye of Terror campaign, and after the excommunication of the Relictors.

Atlas Infernal is pretty awesome to be fair.

[ninja6fett]

I need to re-read Atlas Infernal, the depiction of Ahriman threw me as I had finished Thousand Sons with the opinion that Ahriman's motivations were mysterious and not necessarily antagonistic towards the Imperium, Atlas Infernal did not hold that view.

 

 

As far as KNF is concerned I pretty much loved the book and wish it was twice as long :P.

I want more of Abnett's world-building with the Ultras.

[Conn Eremon]

The 2nd and 5th Edition Codices specifically point out that it were the same worlds the Legion had used.

 

"With the Second Founding the size of the Ultramarines' forces was much reduced. Most of the Space Marines left Macragge to establish new Chapters elsewhere. The Ultramarines' fortress was built to accomodate more than ten times as many Space Marines as now remained on the homeworld. As a result its arsenals and weapon shops were partially dismantled, and taken by the Primogenitor Chapters to found their own bases throughout the galaxy. The genetic banks of the Ultramarines, and the huge recruitment organisation, was similarly reduced in size.

One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14) (alternatively in 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 14)

 

As you can see, the background was quite explicite in pointing out that while the Legion's arsenal, weapon shops, genetic banks, etc. were all distributed between the newly formed Chapters, what remained was that the Ultramarines continued to recruit from the worlds that had provided recruits during the Great Crusade. Even though that was not really necessary anymore, due to the now much smaller Chapter, they continued to do so. The realm of the Legion was explicitely not split between the newly founded Chapters.

 

It explicitly states that what the Chapter now holds are planets that were recruited during the Legion days. It does not explicitly state that they are all of the planets during the Legion days. The point I was making beforehand still applies, then.

 

It does, however, hint that it is not.

The genetic banks of the Ultramarines, and the huge recruitment organisation, was similarly reduced in size.

Their huge recruitment organization, reduced in size, could very well be referring to their Ultramar Empire, reduced in size.

[Legatus]

That is totally what "Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued." means... :mellow:

[Conn Eremon]

That is totally what "Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued." means... :mellow:

 

However, "these worlds," taken in context, are referring only to those worlds the Ultramarine Chapter keeps, which might not mean all of the Legion's worlds.

 

The idea that 492 planets got divided up by 600 Chapters is a valid theory, as neither the Horus Heresy or the quotes you brought up have either validated or disproved it. However, it's an easy solution to the Horus Heresy's recent additions, and can be true without having to invalidate the quotes you brought up.

[Legatus]

The idea that 492 planets got divided up by 600 Chapters is a valid theory

I have to disagree with you on that. There is no way outside of wishful denialism that one can read a paragraph about in what ways the Ultramarines Legion got reduced during it's reorganisation into a single Chapter, and then read statements such as "One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived", or "During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits", or "Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued" and somehow spin that into "they actually had control over hundreds of worlds during the Great Crusade, but now were reduced to only recruiting from about 2% of them, since all the other worlds were given to other Chapters". The text attempts to make a special point about how the worlds that had supplied and provided recruits for the Ultramarines Legion were the same after the reorgainsation, and that this was one aspect of the Legion that didn't change with the splitting up of the Legion. It flat out explains how the Ultramarines Legion was reduced in this way and in that way, but that one thing that didn't change, even though it was no longer necessary for the now single Chapter, was that the worlds that had supplied the Legion during the Great Crusade were still doing so after the Second Founding.

[Captain Idaho]

But the words "Tradition continued" doesn't explain how they continued, or what element of "tradition" has continued in what capacity.

 

As a 40K example, Space Wolves and Dark Angels maintain the "tradition" of ritualised combat when they meet, to re-enact the duel between their Primarchs. So what does that mean? Do they fight to the death, bare handed, fully armed and armoured? How long to they fight? Under what circumstances?

 

As you can see, there is more to it than simple assumption everything will be exactly the same, because it can't be. Call it wishful denial if you like, but you'd be wrong to make that assumption.

[Legatus]

But the words "Tradition continued" doesn't explain how they continued, or what element of "tradition" has continued in what capacity.

The tradition to recruit from the same worlds the Legion had recruited from, even though a single Chapter would not really need to recruit from such a large base any longer. You simply can't squeeze "they used to be 500 worlds, but after the Heresy they only kept 8" onto that description. If they used to have 500 worlds, and after the Second Founding remained with eight, then that is utterly not what that text was describing.

[Captain Idaho]

But the words "Tradition continued" doesn't explain how they continued, or what element of "tradition" has continued in what capacity.

The tradition to recruit from the same worlds the Legion had recruited from, even though a single Chapter would not really need to recruit from such a large base any longer. You simply can't squeeze "they used to be 500 worlds, but after the Heresy they only kept 8" onto that description. If they used to have 500 worlds, and after the Second Founding remained with eight, then that is utterly not what that text was describing.

 

Ok then, quote me the part which says the Ultramarines recruited from every word in Ultramar. Here's your own quote:

 

During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits

 

I've embolded the part which is most important. The worlds around Maccragge doesn't mean the whole of Ultramar does it. It means the words around Maccragge. :jaw:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To quote another IP: Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

[Legatus]

Ok then, quote me the part which says the Ultramarines recruited from every word in Ultramar.

They did not just provide recruits, they also provided resources.

 

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued."

 

That, much more so than the recruiting (although why Space Marines would lord over a domain but not consider recruiting from it is questionable), means that the worlds mentioned in that passage are "it". The passage does not menitone "a tiny part of the worlds that the Ultramarines ruled over during the Great Crusade". The worlds menitoned in that passage are those worlds. The worlds that belonged to the Ultramarines during the Great Crusade, and which remained under their rule even after the Second Founding.

 

 

Edit: Oh, yeah. I forgot this:

 

"This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

 

That is that "area around Macragge" that passage was talking about.

 

 

now i realise in saying this, people will jump on me saying it isnt a whine thread, its a discussion about retcons..

im sorry, but its not.. if it were legatus would at least accept or discuss the idea that 500 worlds is not a retcon..

Ok, here is the thing: Even if the fluff from 2nd (and 5th) edition was not quite explicite (which it is), even if that passage was somehow ambiguous (which it isn't), then you still couldn't tell me with a straight face that you could have read that passage two years ago and thought "hey, perhaps the Ultramarines once had loads more worlds than the eight mentioned in the Codices".

 

The purpose of this thread was not to debate whether retcons are generally good or bad, or whether any specific retcon in particular was good or bad. It was meant to point out what had been retconned in recent books, and how this trend would likely continue. And the description of 500 worlds the Ultramarines added to Ultramar throughout the Great Crusade, instead of Ultramar being the worlds Guilliman had united before being found, the worlds the Legion had drawn supplies from throughout the Crusade, and the worlds the Ultramarines continued to rule over even after the Heresy and to this very day, is a massive retcon to their background.

 

As would be descriptions of the Ultramarines actually producing hundreds of successor Chapters during the Second Founding instead of 23, by the way. It would be a retcon no matter how you spun it. And I am not sure whether to smile or shake my head at attempts to have the prior background say something other than it clearly says, just so as to not acknowledge that the Black Library is fundamentally changeing the background. As if that wouldn't still be the case even if 500 worlds of Ultramar would be vaguely plausible according to older sources. If that was at all plausible, then they only changed 46 things instead of 47.

[Iron Lord]

As would be descriptions of the Ultramarines actually producing hundreds of successor Chapters during the Second Founding instead of 23, by the way. It would be a retcon no matter how you spun it.

 

 

Codex Grey Knights seems to be hinting at this with "barely 400 chapters"- it would be a huge stretch for, of the 391+ Second Founding Chapters, only 23 to be Ultramarines.

[Conn Eremon]

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued."

 

That doesn't, however, say that these were all of the Legion's recruiting worlds. Just that they were worlds the Legion used.

 

Legatus, I understand your apprehensions over the ways in which your favored faction's canon has changed, but these quotes you bring up only refer to the Chapter when it's speaking of things in entirety. Just because all X is Y, does not mean that all Y is X. That is one hell of a fallacy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Obviously Ultramar being 500 worlds was something recently created. Trying to tie it in to fluff that predates it is reconciliatory and I also seriously doubt any decisions are made by the writers with considerations to the nitty gritty of the second founding. All the stuff we know about that has changed considerably given the new direction the authors have taken and I doubt it will ever be paid any mind or reconciled by the BL authors or design studio since it has no impact on sales.

[Legatus]

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued."

That doesn't, however, say that these were all of the Legion's recruiting worlds. Just that they were worlds the Legion used.

Ah, I see, that bit is just incomplete...

 

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Actually, loads and loads more worlds did that, but we are not mentioning them here. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. For those worlds mentioned earlier, anyway. For most of them, it actually didn't."

 

Seriously though: When background text explains that the worlds around a Legion's homeworld provided recruits, when that is something not common with the other Legions, who usually only recruit from their homeworld, then such a description is exhaustive. When the Night Lords background describes how the Legion drew new recruits from Nostramo, then that doesn't mean they recruited from lots and lots of places, really. Similarly, when the Ultramarines sources describe that, unusual for a Legion, the Ultramarines received recruites from the worlds surrounding Macragge, then that is it.

[Captain Idaho]

"This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

 

That is that "area around Macragge" that passage was talking about.

 

Ha, yes but you keep deliberately missing the quote inbetween the two you provided! It's kind of crucial too! The bit about Ultramar recruitment coming from local space!

 

So what Ultramar is might have changed (500 words down to approx 8), but the recruitment of the Ultramarines has always been from local space.

[No Foes Remain]

Obviously Ultramar being 500 worlds was something recently created. Trying to tie it in to fluff that predates it is reconciliatory and I also seriously doubt any decisions are made by the writers with considerations to the nitty gritty of the second founding. All the stuff we know about that has changed considerably given the new direction the authors have taken and I doubt it will ever be paid any mind or reconciled by the BL authors or design studio since it has no impact on sales.

 

This hits the nail on the head. In the entirety of the old fluff and lore (including 5th ed) there were bearly a few hundred second founding, however with the new lore comming out of BL with the legion sizes times by ten there is bound to be some indescrepencies. With 6th on the horizon and more HH books to come out I'm betting that most of this will be ironed out and re-eddited.

 

Look at it this way, in the past how many times has 30k and 40k fluff been edited. Hell to start of with the Ultras were traitors, and were edited back to be loyal. Its just gowing through a phase to help account for the vast numbers of Astartes in the current 40k universe.

[Gree]

On a side note, is there anything in Know No Fear saying that Lorgar was not present?

[Legatus]

Ha, yes but you keep deliberately missing the quote inbetween the two you provided! It's kind of crucial too! The bit about Ultramar recruitment coming from local space!

 

So what Ultramar is might have changed (500 words down to approx 8), but the recruitment of the Ultramarines has always been from local space.

Aside from your dubious assumption that a Legion would not recruit from all worlds they had control over, the worlds were not only said to provide recruits but also resources. So not only were the Ultramarines not drawing any recruits from 98% of their realm, but they were not receiving any recources from those worlds either? That kind of defeats the purpose of an Astartes controlled realm.

 

 

On a side note, is there anything in Know No Fear saying that Lorgar was not present?

Only various passages showing Erebus and Kor Phaeron either on Calth or on their ships or the orbital Stations taking action and directiong the war, but never showing Lorgar at all after his last holo conversation with Guilliman. But the bit about him not actually being there mainly comes from information from A D-B, who explained that some of teh next books will explain what Lorgar had actually been doing at the moment. If you want to be technically precise about it, this is a retcon from one of the later books, not one from 'Know no Fear', which merely hints that Lorgar is not actually present.

 

 

Look at it this way, in the past how many times has 30k and 40k fluff been edited. Hell to start of with the Ultras were traitors, and were edited back to be loyal.

The background has been pretty consistent since 2nd Edition, so for about 15 years. During that time only minor changes were introduced, where from 1st to 2nd Edition the universe had undergone a major overhaul. It is always a bit odd to see claims to previous changes put forward as an argument, with the drastically different 1st Edition as the example. The 40K universe as we know it had been established 15 years ago with the 2nd Edition. The latest batch of 5th Edition Codices pretty much copies whole pages of fluff from the 2nd Edition counterparts. What GW is doing now is almost compareable to the change from 1st to 2nd Edition, so, yes, this is indeed a big deal, and not at all business as usual.

 

 

Its just gowing through a phase to help account for the vast numbers of Astartes in the current 40k universe.

Ten thousand years of successive new foundings would have explained that just fine.

[greatcrusade08]

Aside from your dubious assumption that a Legion would not recruit from all worlds they had control over, the worlds were not only said to provide recruits but also resources. So not only were the Ultramarines not drawing any recruits from 98% of their realm, but they were not receiving any recources from those worlds either? That kind of defeats the purpose of an Astartes controlled realm.

 

you keep rehashing the same old point, but equally your making assumptions, huge ones.

heres the quote again for completeness

"With the Second Founding the size of the Ultramarines' forces was much reduced. Most of the Space Marines left Macragge to establish new Chapters elsewhere. The Ultramarines' fortress was built to accomodate more than ten times as many Space Marines as now remained on the homeworld. As a result its arsenals and weapon shops were partially dismantled, and taken by the Primogenitor Chapters to found their own bases throughout the galaxy. The genetic banks of the Ultramarines, and the huge recruitment organisation, was similarly reduced in size.

One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

 

nothing here says they only recruited from just the eight worlds..

just becuase it says the area around macragge provided recruits, doesnt mean other areas didnt.. by having a 'big middle' it opens the quote to be malleable with the newer information.

you assume no other areas were recruited from, becuase it fits with your interpretation..

 

clearly that interpretation needs re-evaluating in light of recent books.

my point is thats its not a retcon, merely a re-interpretation of existing information to fit with new.

 

just to clarify 3 of the 8 worlds of the 'current' ultramar, were capital worlds during the GC and HH, each controlled a fiefdom (controlled by tetrachs with macragge a fith controlled by guilliman).. calth was on its way to being another..

50% of the ultramar worlds as we know them today were of massive importance to the relam of ultramar.. given how fiefdoms work, its logical to assume these worlds became centres of recruitment within thier own fiefdoms..

so the 100 worlds subservient to Iax would gather resources and recruits and send them to macragge. from the perspective of macragge, the resources, recuits and equiment come from a single source.. but logistically its much more complex.

 

bottom line is this, youve one quote from a 20 yr old source that can be interpreted in different ways (despite your protestations).. at what point are you going to give it a rest and move on?

what if your right? what if your not?

what does it matter?

[Captain Idaho]

On a side note, is there anything in Know No Fear saying that Lorgar was not present?

 

You've not read it? :D

[Veteran Sergeant]

On a side note, is there anything in Know No Fear saying that Lorgar was not present?

I think people are just basing it on the fact that nothing in KNF suggests that he was. And connecting it to the fact that Tzeentch tried to convince Lorgar not to go to Calth by telling him that if he did, he would fail in his quest to bring enlightenment to humanity. Probably because if Lorgar had gone to Calth, he would have been the one gutted in a confrontation with Guilliman, and not Kor Phaeron.

[Gree]

On a side note, is there anything in Know No Fear saying that Lorgar was not present?

 

You've not read it? <_<

 

Of course I have. I’m surpised you would think I did not considering I quoted entire passages from the book in our first Know No Fear thread in the Ultramarines forum.

 

I simply did not read anything specific in the book that said Lorgar was not present.

 

Probably because if Lorgar had gone to Calth, he would have been the one gutted in a confrontation with Guilliman, and not Kor Phaeron.

 

If Lorgar wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would have been dead. The novel makes it rather clear that Kor Phaeron could have killed Guilliman had he wanted to, even Guilliman says as much.

[Captain Idaho]

On a side note, is there anything in Know No Fear saying that Lorgar was not present?

 

You've not read it? :huh:

 

Of course I have. I’m surpised you would think I did not considering I quoted entire passages from the book in our first Know No Fear thread in the Ultramarines forum.

 

I simply did not read anything specific in the book that said Lorgar was not present.

 

The question implied you had not read the novel which caused me to be confused since you (as you said) have quoted much from it, that's all.

 

There was a moment, around the explosion on the bridge part I believe, which talks of Lorgar being present or not. I can't remember exactly now, so it could be an enigmatic reference I am remembering.