Ultra Marine Retcon

[Legatus]

nothing here says they only recruited from just the eight worlds..

just becuase it says the area around macragge provided recruits, doesnt mean other areas didnt..

That is a completely nonsensical interpretation of that description.

 

"The Night Lords recruited from three worlds during the Greast Crusade" would mean that they recruited from those three worlds, period. Just because that description does not say "they recruited from three worlds, and only from those three worlds" does not mean that a new description saying "the Night Lords recruited from twelve worlds" would not be a retcon. That would be a retcon, because the previous source stated that they recruited from three worlds. (They didn't actually do that, this is merely an example.)

 

Similarly, the Ultramarines background states that they recruited from the area around Macragge. The fact that the description does not specifically state "and only from those worlds, not hundreds of other worlds as well" does not mean that that would be an actually viable interpretation of the earlier statement, explaining that they recruited from the worlds around Macragge.

And it would be completely nonsensical to explain how "one thing did not change, and they kept recruiting from these worlds even when that was not necessary any longer for a much smaller Chapter" if they had previously recruited from hundreds of worlds and actually HAD their recruitement base reduced dramatically. If they actually had drawn recruits and resources from hundreds of worlds, and actually were reduced to a mere eight worlds after the reorganisation, then that entire paragraph makes no sense at all, since that paragraph was written to explain specifically the opposite.

 

 

what if your right? what if your not?

what does it matter?

The original purpose of this thread (as I understood it) was to discuss which elements are being retconned by recent and possibly future novels. It was not s much about whether those retcons are awesome or a travesty. So, discerning whether or not Ultramar having consisted of 500 worlds at some point, instead of having remained the same throughout the Great Crusade up to this day, would be in the interest of the OP.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Probably because if Lorgar had gone to Calth, he would have been the one gutted in a confrontation with Guilliman, and not Kor Phaeron.

 

If Lorgar wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would have been dead. The novel makes it rather clear that Kor Phaeron could have killed Guilliman had he wanted to, even Guilliman says as much.

Not true. Phaeron failed because he was proud and arrogant and left Guilliman an opening. Lorgar would have made the same mistake. Tzeentch knew this, and so he tricked Lorgar into skipping the Battle of Calth. Remember, Tzeentch was bound to tell one lie for every truth. The truth was that if Lorgar went to Calth, he would fail in his quest to bring enlightenment to humanity. The lie was that if he went, he would get his vengeance on Guilliman. Take note that the encounter between Lorgar and Guilliman in Lorgar's vision in Aurelian is almost identical to that of Guilliman and Phaeron that actually happened in KNF.

 

Both Lorgar and Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead. They both even would have had the ability to kill him. But neither would have actually done it because they were proud, vengeful fools who would have let their arrogance get the better of them. Hence why Phaeron finished that confrontation with a primarch fist sized hole in his gut.

[Gree]

Probably because if Lorgar had gone to Calth, he would have been the one gutted in a confrontation with Guilliman, and not Kor Phaeron.

 

If Lorgar wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would have been dead. The novel makes it rather clear that Kor Phaeron could have killed Guilliman had he wanted to, even Guilliman says as much.

Not true. Phaeron failed because he was proud and arrogant and left Guilliman an opening. Lorgar would have made the same mistake. Tzeentch knew this, and so he tricked Lorgar into skipping the Battle of Calth. Remember, Tzeentch was bound to tell one lie for every truth. The truth was that if Lorgar went to Calth, he would fail in his quest to bring enlightenment to humanity. The lie was that if he went, he would get his vengeance on Guilliman. Take note that the encounter between Lorgar and Guilliman in Lorgar's vision in Aurelian is almost identical to that of Guilliman and Phaeron that actually happened in KNF.

 

Both Lorgar and Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead. They both even would have had the ability to kill him. But neither would have actually done it because they were proud, vengeful fools who would have let their arrogance get the better of them. Hence why Phaeron finished that confrontation with a primarch fist sized hole in his gut.

Phaeron wanted to turn Guilliman. Not kill him. That is explicitly stated.

 

"Kor Phaeron can see a choice, and it delights him. He can end the life of the great Guilliman. A personal kill is so much more valuable than a distant or mass killing.

 

With his own hand, he can murder Roboute Guilliman.

 

Or, with his own hand, he can turn him.

 

Just as the Warmaster was turned.

 

Erebus did it. So Kor Phaeron can do it.

 

Guilliman is hurt, weak, vulnerable. The bite of the athame will free Guilliman’s sanity while he is in such a state, slice away his inhibitions. The painful burn of the athame wound will fester in him, and ultimately, through the lens of delirium, reveal the Primordial Truth in all its hellish glory.

 

They came to Calth to kill Guilliman and his perfect warriors. How much more will it mean to return to the court of Lorgar and Horus Lupercal with Guilliman as a willing and pliant ally?"

 

And here:

 

"You made an error,’ Guilliman gasps.

 

‘An error?’

 

‘You chose the wrong practical. You had a choice. Toy with me. Kill me. You chose the wrong one.’

 

‘Really?’ smiles Kor Phaeron.

 

‘You should not have let me live.’

 

‘I let you live so I could share the truth, Roboute.’

 

‘Yes,’ says Guilliman, sucking in each ragged breath. ‘But all the while I’m alive, I can do this.’

 

Both Guilliman and Phaeron state that he let Guilliman live when he could have killed him. Phaeron left Guilliman alive because he wanted to turn him. If Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead. Simple as that.

[Billuriye]

Daemon said if Lorgar would avenge himself by killing Guilliman he would lose the opportunity for enlightenment, the other option was to miss the chance but bring the mankind the glory and truth of Chaos. He went by the second and failed to get what he wanted. I'd say second option was the lie. Besides who says 1 truth 1 lie policy was truth ? This is Tzeentch. The most treacherous and deceitful of Chaos gods.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Both Guilliman and Phaeron state that he let Guilliman live when he could have killed him. Phaeron left Guilliman alive because he wanted to turn him. If Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead. Simple as that.

You're still missing the most important part of that confrontation. Phaeron failed at whatever he wanted to do. Utterly. Because instead of just doing what he needed to do, he ran his mouth. Lorgar would have done the same thing, and would have been defeated. Tzeentch knew this. Hence why he lied.

 

The question isn't what they wanted. Kill Guilliman, turn him, invite him to an ice cream party. The discussion is what actually happened, or would have happened if Lorgar had been there in Phaeron's place.

[Gree]

Both Guilliman and Phaeron state that he let Guilliman live when he could have killed him. Phaeron left Guilliman alive because he wanted to turn him. If Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead. Simple as that.

You're still missing the most important part of that confrontation. Phaeron failed at whatever he wanted to do. Utterly. Because instead of just doing what he needed to do, he ran his mouth. Lorgar would have done the same thing, and would have been defeated. Tzeentch knew this. Hence why he lied.

 

The question isn't what they wanted. Kill Guilliman, turn him, invite him to an ice cream party. The discussion is what actually happened, or would have happened if Lorgar had been there in Phaeron's place.

 

Why would Lorgar act like Phaeron and turn his hated rival who he already expressed a desire to Kill and not convert?

 

But you miss my point. I said that if Lorgar wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead, as the novel shows us.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Daemon said if Lorgar would avenge himself by killing Guilliman he would lose the opportunity for enlightenment, the other option was to miss the chance but bring the mankind the glory and truth of Chaos. He went by the second and failed to get what he wanted. I'd say second option was the lie.

Why would he lie about something that would damage his own cause? See, you fell for the same trap Lorgar did. Tzeentch said he was bound to tell one lie and then one truth. Then he said that everything he said in this instance was the truth. It's an impossibility for everything he said to be the truth if he just lied about having to tell one lie and one truth. So out of those two statements, the truth is obvious. Except Lorgar missed it. Tzeentch tricked Lorgar from the start, and left Lorgar easily susceptible to manipulation. But there's no way that Tzeentch manipulates Lorgar to do something that doesn't serve his own purposes. Lorgar was the Ruinous Powers' first converted Primarch, and they didn't want him to be killed by Guilliman. So they diverted him away from his quest for vengeance. It wasn't just about keeping him away from his death at Calth, it was about keeping him focused on the path of spreading the lies of Chaos. Taking him out of his revenge mindset for the intervening years too. Once Lorgar believed that his ultimate vengeance against Guilliman was a lost cause, he would no longer be consumed by it.

[Gree]

Why would he lie about something that would damage his own cause?

 

Why would Lorgar want to turn Guilliman?

 

See, you fell for the same trap Lorgar did. Tzeentch said he was bound to tell one lie and then one truth. Then he said that everything he said in this instance was the truth. It's an impossibility for everything he said to be the truth if he just lied about having to tell one lie and one truth. So out of those two statements, the truth is obvious. Except Lorgar missed it. Tzeentch tricked Lorgar from the start, and left Lorgar easily susceptible to manipulation.

 

I’m not really sure what you just said here. It’s very confusing. What is your point?

 

But there's no way that Tzeentch manipulates Lorgar to do something that doesn't serve his own purposes. Lorgar was the Ruinous Powers' first converted Primarch, and they didn't want him to be killed by Guilliman. So they diverted him away from his quest for vengeance. It wasn't just about keeping him away from his death at Calth, it was about keeping him focused on the path of spreading the lies of Chaos. Taking him out of his revenge mindset for the intervening years too. Once Lorgar believed that his ultimate vengeance against Guilliman was a lost cause, he would no longer be consumed by it.

 

If Lorgar wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead. That part of effectively confirmed by Know No Fear. And we don’t really know if Lorgar would have acted like Phaeron and tried to convert Guilliman.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Both Guilliman and Phaeron state that he let Guilliman live when he could have killed him. Phaeron left Guilliman alive because he wanted to turn him. If Phaeron wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead. Simple as that.

You're still missing the most important part of that confrontation. Phaeron failed at whatever he wanted to do. Utterly. Because instead of just doing what he needed to do, he ran his mouth. Lorgar would have done the same thing, and would have been defeated. Tzeentch knew this. Hence why he lied.

 

The question isn't what they wanted. Kill Guilliman, turn him, invite him to an ice cream party. The discussion is what actually happened, or would have happened if Lorgar had been there in Phaeron's place.

 

Why would Lorgar act like Phaeron and turn his hated rival who he already expressed a desire to Kill and not convert?

 

But you miss my point. I said that if Lorgar wanted Guilliman dead, then Guilliman would be dead, as the novel shows us.

I'm not missing anything. I think you're not phrasing your intent properly.

 

Desire is not the same thing as ability, even if there is ultimately a capability. Yes, Lorgar wanted to kill Guilliman. Yes, Lorgar had the capability of killing him. However, the reason Tzeentch lied to Lorgar was because Tzeentch knew that in his moment of triumph, Lorgar would make a fatal mistake and be defeated. Guilliman says that Kor Phaeron could have killed him, but Guilliman also has no knowledge of what happened between Lorgar and Tzeentch in Aurelian. Guilliman believed that Phaeron had the ability to kill him. He was probably right. By the same consequence, Lorgar, infused by the powers of Chaos as well, probably could have killed Guilliman. He had the ability. But, just like Phaeron, he wouldn't have. This was what Tzeentch knew.

 

 

Why would he lie about something that would damage his own cause?

 

Why would Lorgar want to turn Guilliman?

Is English not your first language or are you just completely confused? I never said anything about Lorgar wanting to turn Guilliman.

[Gree]

However, the reason Tzeentch lied to Lorgar was because Tzeentch knew that in his moment of triumph, Lorgar would make a fatal mistake and be defeated. Guilliman says that Kor Phaeron could have killed him, but Guilliman also has no knowledge of what happened between Lorgar and Tzeentch in Aurelian. Guilliman believed that Phaeron had the ability to kill him. He was probably right. By the same consequence, Lorgar, infused by the powers of Chaos as well, probably could have killed Guilliman. He had the ability. But, just like Phaeron, he wouldn't have. This was what Tzeentch knew.

 

That’s a nice bit of conjecture, but I don’t think we have any proof that Lorgar wanted to turn Guilliman like Phaeron.

 

Is English not your first language or are you just completely confused? I never said anything about Lorgar wanting to turn Guilliman.

 

You just did. You said he would do what Phaeron did. And Phaeron wanted to turn Guilliman.

[Captain Idaho]

And it would be completely nonsensical to explain how "one thing did not change, and they kept recruiting from these worlds even when that was not necessary any longer for a much smaller Chapter" if they had previously recruited from hundreds of worlds and actually HAD their recruitement base reduced dramatically. If they actually had drawn recruits and resources from hundreds of worlds, and actually were reduced to a mere eight worlds after the reorganisation, then that entire paragraph makes no sense at all, since that paragraph was written to explain specifically the opposite.

 

To turn your argument on itself; no where does the description in Codex Ultramarines or Space Marines (same thing) state the Ultramarines recruit from only from Ultramar. It is implied of course, but not obsolete if later information states this is not the case.

 

Likewise, if the Ultramarines only recruited from local space during the Crusade/pre Heresy despite there being lots of additional planets in Ultramar, it's still not obsolete to coincide with previous back ground material since it said they recruited from local space.

 

It works both ways really.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Okay, so the answer is you are completely confused. Okay, as long as I know where your disconnect is.

 

 

What Lorgar would have done, that Phaeron did, was run his mouth instead of finishing Guilliman off. Because Phaeron decided to give a Bond villain-esque gloat speech, he got a gut full of Guilliman fist. In Aurelian, right as Lorgar's vision is fading away, he is gloating in front of Guilliman. Phaeron did the same thing.

[Billuriye]

Tzeentch said he was bound to tell one lie and then one truth. Then he said that everything he said in this instance was the truth. It's an impossibility for everything he said to be the truth if he just lied about having to tell one lie and one truth. So out of those two statements, the truth is obvious.

 

Basic logic. Assuming 1 truth 1 lie policy was true then the part where Lorgar will enlighten humanity if he doesn't avenge himself is a lie since it didn't come true. Then it is logical to say that if Lorgar would meet Guilliman he would kill him.

[Gree]

Okay, so the answer is you are completely confused. Okay, as long as I know where your disconnect is.

Perhaps if you could be more clear?

What Lorgar would have done, that Phaeron did, was run his mouth instead of finishing Guilliman off. Because Phaeron decided to give a Bond villain-esque gloat speech, he got a gut full of Guilliman fist. In Aurelian, right as Lorgar's vision is fading away, he is gloating in front of Guilliman. Phaeron did the same thing.

He was gloating in front of a dying Guilliman. Phaeron said something and then successfully cut Guilliman’s throat before waiting for Guilliman to turn.

 

"Kor Phaeron stoops beside the crumpled primarch. Guilliman’s breathing is fast and ragged. His armour smokes, discoloured, and his blood pools beneath him.

‘There is so much you don’t understand,’ says Kor Phaeron. ‘The truth will shock you, Roboute. I’m sorry, it will. But you will learn to accommodate it. I’m happy to share my knowledge with you. To help you understand. To grow in appreciation.’

‘Get away from me,’ Guilliman gasps.

‘Too late. Embrace this.’

Thiel is too far away to stop it. Locked in the unyielding fight raging on the opposite side of the control chamber, Thiel glimpses what he knows is likely to be the final few seconds of Roboute Guilliman’s life.

He tries to break through, screaming out his rage and frustration. The Word Bearers have driven Guilliman’s kill squad back, slaying most of them. Thiel and the others fight to reach their primarch’s side, but they cannot. There are too many of the enemy. And these are the enemy elite.

Three warriors obstruct Aeonid Thiel. One is Sorot Tchure. Tchure blocks every strike and thrust Thiel makes, as surely as a practice cage set on maximum extremity level.

Kor Phaeron puts the blade of the athame to Guilliman’s throat."

 

If Phaeron let his guard down it was with the full expectation that Guilliman would turn. If Lorgar came to kill then he would not logically lget his guard down if Guilliman was still an enemy, unless Lorgar was kneeling beside Guilliman and not expecting him to fight back in Aurelian?

[Race Bannon]

Let's try to communicate without editorializing about a Frater personally.

[Legatus]

To turn your argument on itself; no where does the description in Codex Ultramarines or Space Marines (same thing) state the Ultramarines recruit from only from Ultramar.

It wouldn't have, as I explained. A source explaining that a Legion had recruited from X planets would merely say "the Legion recruited from X planets". It would never say "the Legion recruited from X planets, and only ever from those planets", because that would be an utterly redundant way to phrase it. The Ultramarines sources tell us that they had recruited from X planets during the crusade, and continued to do so afterwards. And those X planets are collectively called "Ultramar".

 

 

Likewise, if the Ultramarines only recruited from local space during the Crusade/pre Heresy despite there being lots of additional planets in Ultramar, it's still not obsolete to coincide with previous back ground material since it said they recruited from local space.

It also says that that particular local space is called "Ultramar".

 

 

The source makes a particular point that this was an element of the old Legion that didn't change with the reorganisation, even though the smaller Chapter no longer would have needed to keep recruiting from them. If The Ultramarines had formerly recruited from hundreds of worlds, or if Ultramar had not been that same local space, and had instead span hundreds of worlds, then that description makes no sense.

The source described a tradition from the Legion that was continued with the Chapter. If the Legion had ruled over 500 worlds, but after the reorganisation only kept 8 of them, then that is something completely different than what that source describes.

[The 13th Goat]

Having not read Aurelian yet, I cannot really postulate much past my initial thought;

 

What Lorgar saw was a vision, not an accurate prophecy. Many sources indicate that Lorgar was not as martially proficient as some of the other Primarchs, Guilliman being one commonly seen at the other end of the spectrum. The fact Lorgar could kill him in a vision is not enough evidence to support him doing the same in reality. After all, human perception always paint it's owner as more powerful than they actually are. Lorgar could subconsiously believe himself stonger, thus the vision reflects that.

 

I'm not saying Lorgar was weaker, I'm just saying killing Roboute in a dream and in real life are 2 different things.

[Gree]

Having not read Aurelian yet, I cannot really postulate much past my initial thought;

 

What Lorgar saw was a vision, not an accurate prophecy. Many sources indicate that Lorgar was not as martially proficient as some of the other Primarchs, Guilliman being one commonly seen at the other end of the spectrum. The fact Lorgar could kill him in a vision is not enough evidence to support him doing the same in reality. After all, human perception always paint it's owner as more powerful than they actually are. Lorgar could subconsiously believe himself stonger, thus the vision reflects that.

 

I'm not saying Lorgar was weaker, I'm just saying killing Roboute in a dream and in real life are 2 different things.

 

Well A D-B has already addressed this. We see Lorgar in A First Heretic as the low point of his creer. IT’s a different man during the Heresy. But of Kor Phaeron, somebody not even an full Astartes, enhanced with the powers of Chaos, can beat Guilliman, then surely Lorgar, enhanced with the powers of Chaos, can do that.

[JamesI]

This thread is taking a temporary break while the Moderators look it over.