BA vs. GK. Do we even stand a chance?

[masterchief4911]

Me and a good fellow were talking about CC squads, who's better blah blah blah. I brought to the table a (30) man DC squad with (10) Hammers, (10) power weapons, (15) hand flamers, (15) infernus pistol, Lemartes, and Asteroth. Ridiculous power right? Well, apparently not, he brought a GK grand master, a Librarian, and (10) paladins all with various nasty wargear. He then broke down, move by move how he would completely wipe my squad off the face of the planet, and not lose a single model in the process. With waaaaay over powered units like that in the game, should we all be grabbing are silver rattle cans and start painting are plastic dudesman, if we ever want to win a tourney again?

 

BTW, here is the breakdown for those interested:

 

GK Grand Master w/ NFHalberd, Blind Grenades, Digital Weapons, Brain Mines, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades, Master Crafted Orbital strike relay - 285pts

 

GK Librarian w/ MC NFHalberd, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Psybolt Ammo, Digital Weapons, Brain Mines - 190pts

 

10 Paladins w/ Pysbolt Ammunition - 830pts

1 Apothecary, Master Crafted NFSword

1 Psycannon, MC NFHalberd

1 Psycannon, MC NFDaemonhammer

1 Psycannon, MC NFFalcions

1 Psycannon, MC NFSword

1 MC Nemesis Warding Stave

1 MC NFDaemonhammer

1 MC NFFalcions

1 MC Storm Bolter, Brotherhood Banner

1 MC NFHalberd

 

Total - 1305pts

 

Using Grand Strategy, the Paladins are gifted Counter-Attack.

 

Your Death Company must suffer:

1 Orbital Strike Relay that can re-roll the scatter dice on BS6

16 BS4 S7 Rending shots

10 BS4 S5 shots, 2 of which are master-crafted

 

Before then moving on to combat, where if you charge me, you have to take dangerous terrain checks thanks to Sanctuary, and lose 5 guys, and Blind Grenades means you do not recieve your extra attack for charging.

 

I then use Brain Mines to attempt to incapacitate your characters, use Psychotrokes, and also Rad Grenades.

 

I use Hammerhand from the Librarian to give the unit S5.

 

You then recieve 4 attacks (3+1 from the Brotherhood Banner) from the Grand Master against Astorath, hitting on 4s for 2 hits, and wounding on 2s for 2 wounds. Astorath fails 1 of his 4+ invuls and the test to activate the force weapon is auto-passed by the banner. Astorath is toast.

 

The Librarian and the Paladins then attack. The Paladins will most likely pass their counter-attack on Ld10, and recieve the following attacks:

 

1 Apothecary, Master Crafted NFSword - 4

1 Psycannon, MC NFHalberd - 4

1 Psycannon, MC NFFalcions - 5

1 Psycannon, MC NFSword - 4

1 MC Nemesis Warding Stave - 4

1 MC NFFalcions - 5

1 MC Storm Bolter, Brotherhood Banner - 4

1 MC NFHalberd - 4

 

And the Librarian recieves 4 also, for a total of 38 attacks needing 4s to hit for:

 

1 Apothecary, Master Crafted NFSword - 3 hits

1 Psycannon, MC NFHalberd - 3

1 Psycannon, MC NFFalcions - 3

1 Psycannon, MC NFSword - 3

1 MC Nemesis Warding Stave - 3

1 MC NFFalcions - 3

1 MC Storm Bolter, Brotherhood Banner - 2 (CCW is not master crafted)

1 MC NFHalberd - 3

 

And 3 from the Librarian, wounding on 2s, all of which wound thanks to digital weapons.

 

The remaining 23s hits also wound on 2s for 19 Wounds, and 19.

 

Total Death Company Dead: 27

Astorath Dead? Yes.

 

Assuming no psychotroke effects:

 

Lemartes then strikes (at the same time, but doesn't particularly matter here, since he wasn't allocated any wounds) with 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 2.25 after re-rolls, needing 4s to wound for 1.68 wounds, or 2, after re-rolls. Allocated to Warding Stave, who saves, and a NFS, who takes a wound.

 

Remaining 3 get 6 attacks, 3 hits, 5 after re-rolls, and 5 wounds.

 

Warding Stave, Sword, both Falcions and a Halberd are allocated, and the stave survives.

 

Both Daemon Hammers then strike with 8 attacks total, hitting on 4s for 4, 6 with master-crafted re-rolls. Wounding on 2s for 5 wounds, and 3 dead DC, two wounds on Lemartes, he fails one and is IDed.

 

GKs win, without taking into account:

Shooting

Psychotrokes

GKs Charging

[ArdezFurioso]

Then don't assault. Stay at range. Use cheap assault squads just to trap him in assaults(have the assaults end on his turn whenever possible, or just don't assault) while you pound away with Vindicators and Baal Predators.

 

They may have all that great stuff, but if you go first and own 3 Baal Predators with Flamestorm cannons you can rush in and burn the crap out of his army before they can do anything.

 

You may have ridiculous power with a Death Company that big, but you are attacking a rock with scissors. You need paper to beat a rock. Cover it in templates and it is gone.

[Sanct]

Don't take a badly designed/illegal DC unit against an optimised GK pally unit with support.

It looks sick unit you realise the 1300pt of grey knight is 12 models who all die to S8/AP2 or better. Even moreso when the angels can get 2x pred with LC/AC and 6x 5RAS with MG in PLas razorbacks for the about the same points.

 

I agree with ArdezFurioso. Don't try to out-rock a rock when you have better options.

[DK1]

Im a gk plsyer and have a friend that is BA...what he does is take 3 5man teams of tach squads with dedicated trans land raiders and 3with las backs...then the rest of his points with dev teams with plasma cannons a lascannons. normaly spaming 13 las a turn that wipes out a 10man term squad a turn. we split bout 50-50 on win lose

[Dunnaeph34rn473]

Ignoring the fact that the death company unit you described is illegally equipmed let's look at the situation for a moment. That 12 man GK squad he has is roughly 1300 points. Taking one 12 man unit worth 1300 points is about as quick a way to get your ass beat as can be thought of. 2+ save or not, they're still only T4 and have 6" movement. They suffer instant death from S8+ attacks, and can be kited around very easily, almost always ensuring that they are charged and not the ones charging. So let's look at your example.

 

I believe you said you equipped your DC with 15 hand flamers, and 15 infernus pistols, which is illegal, but we'll go with it. Also, in your example you let the GK do everything first, shoot, attack, etc... so in this example we'll say its the BA turn and they do everything first. So your DC move in, stopping an inch or two away to charge in the assault phase. Shooting phase, you've got 15 hand flamers, 15 infernus pistols, and 2 bolt pistols from Lemartes and Astorath. We'll say you get a modest 3 terminators under each flamer template. That's 45 hits with the hand flamers which I believe are S3(don't have codex atm). You wound on 5's against T4 so you cause ~15 wounds, you then get 15 IP shots, ~10 hit, and ~8 wound. We'll say between Lemartes and Astorath one bolt pistol causes a wound. So you've caused 15 hand flamer wounds, 8 IP wounds, and 1 BP wound. The GK can then allocate those however they want. That very conveniently turns out to be 24 wounds exactly, so the GK player would most likely double up the IP wounds that cause instant death when possible, leaving 4 terminators to take only an invulnerable save, and another 8 that have to take 2 armor saves each. Roughly 3 of those will fail, along with roughly 3 terminators suffering instant death. So before you even charge you've already killed 3 from shooting, and three more are down to one wound.

 

Now I don't play GK, nor have I read their codex, but I'm under the impression that only the haberds strike at I6. DC have FC so on the charge you're I5. His captain, librarian, and 2 terminators had halberds according to your post, so sure, they'll strike first. I think the librarian and terminators have 2 attacks, and the captain has 3. So they'll be striking with 9 attacks. You mentioned sanctuary makes you take dangerous terrain tests, so sure you lose 5 guys. Just scrap some of the DC with chainswords. You also mentioned they have some sort of grenades that disallow bonus charge attacks, that's fine. Lemartes will actually strike before the halberds with I7 on the charge and Astorath will be striking at the same time the halberds strike. Lemartes will have 3 attacks, and Astorath will have 4. The librarian has WS5 I'm guessing, and the captain 6, the termines 4 I would imagine. They've got hammerhand so S5. Lemartes has FC so S5 and Astorath has a weapon that hits at S6. Lemartes hits with WS5 with 3 attacks, because of his rerolls on hits and wounds probability says he's usually going to hit with all 3 attacks and wound with all 3. So that's 3 more wounds, now I would imagine the captain and librarian are still at full wounds and the rest of the squad has 6 of 7 remaining members down to 1 wound each. Now Astorath and the halberd GK strike....

 

This is getting long and drawn out, to wrap it up, Astorath and the Halberds are all going to hit at the same time, Astorath will cause probably 2-3 wounds, the halberd GK's will probably cause 4 wounds or so, so you'll lose 4 chainsword DC. Then, and this part is important, the rest of the DC will attack BEFORE the rest of the GK squad, unless they have some power that I'm not aware of which negates FC. They cause about a billion wounds because they're DC and that's what they do, and everything dies, so in the end, sure, that 1300 point squad killed about 9 DC, 5 of them simply because of dangerous terrain tests, and then they all died.

 

Is that 1300 point rock a tough nut? Sure it is, noboby ever said it wasn't. Simply charging it is not the way to go about beating it, DC is certainly not the preferred unit to take out a bunch of paladins or terminators. I assume those were paladins anyways, if they were simply terminators with only one wound you would have killed them even quicker with that squad. But with as ridiculous a squad as that DC one you have listed is, yes, even in melee you can take out his GK squad with a unit like that. Honestly though, they're slow and don't have the best range, just get some plasma cannons on some devastators camping with a priest and laugh. They'll all be dead before they can reach you. Or just kite them around with... anything really while you slowly whittle them down. GK can field some scary units, huge slow rock units like that honestly are more of a liability in an army than they are helpful in my opinion.

[Emperors Immortals]

Ive done fine running 6 speeders with 4MM and the rest as HB, 1 dedicated sterngaurd assassin team (the BH blackgaurd - IA coming soon lo) and lazbacks/melta teams.

[Jorre]

1 vindicator pie plate and watch him pee his pants!

 

I wouldnt worry to much about your hypothetical battle there as I cant see it ever actually happening in a game unless both players went out of there way to set it up like that!

[Malus the Destroyer]

The halberds are moot, the librarian can make the whole paladin squad save the hammers, Init 10. I play both codex's, and even tried the stupid paladin build. Keep in mind, you have your WHOLE ARMY to shoot at, 2 at the most targets, and they can only kill 1 or 2 targets a turn. That's if GK's take 2 paladin squads. I played 2 in 2k points. Ya, you can trounce things. But prepare to pay for it. And Draigo, may be a beat stick with them, but his job is to take lascannon and melta shots for the squad. You'd be suprised how fast the Flesh Tearers, and I suppose the other Blood Angels can tear them down. Just take Mephiston to that party.

[SamaNagol]

lol Mephiston vs I10 force weapons.... haha

 

Paladin armies were like week 1 builds for GK. Use movement to beat them. And drop as much ranged AP2 shooting as possible on them.

[ArdezFurioso]

Just had an idea to beat it for the billionth time.

 

Stormraven, DC squad inside(much smaller than 27(and only when you assault first), and a DC dread hooked on as well.

 

byebye again GK

[SamaNagol]

Gets shot down by MC Psycannon because it is AV 12

 

Dreadnought gets decimated by a S10 Thunder Hammer or 2 after causing maybe 4 wounds with its Talons.

 

All of this is one turn of combat really. It's gimmicks. Stop thinking so linearly. Paladins are not meant to be charged. Same as Nob Warbikes.

[The Yncarne]

So the counter is to pound away with S8 or AP2 guns. I realize mech BA is popular, but it seems odd to me that BA builds would load up on the vindies and presumably razorbacks to beat this (and indeed, many) GK lists. I'm coming to the conclusion a similar build is needed against winning Necron lists as well.

 

I'm getting pretty tired of the meta at the moment. Take a look at a recent local tournament's representative armies and how they each placed. Con of the North had a bit better representation, but the trend seems clear: you either play a MEQ or a horde army (Orks/Nids). If that kind of army representation is the norm (and I have no idea outside my local meta), then it can't be a good sign for the health of the game.

 

Drifting off topic, so I'll end it here.

[ArdezFurioso]

So the counter is to pound away with S8 or AP2 guns. I realize mech BA is popular, but it seems odd to me that BA builds would load up on the vindies and presumably razorbacks to beat this (and indeed, many) GK lists. I'm coming to the conclusion a similar build is needed against winning Necron lists as well.

 

I'm getting pretty tired of the meta at the moment. Take a look at a recent local tournament's representative armies and how they each placed. Con of the North had a bit better representation, but the trend seems clear: you either play a MEQ or a horde army (Orks/Nids). If that kind of army representation is the norm (and I have no idea outside my local meta), then it can't be a good sign for the health of the game.

 

Drifting off topic, so I'll end it here.

 

Conversations will turn as they will. The topic seems like a farce and an attempt to troll IMHO.

 

You can run some good hybrid lists for BA, but mech is a great option for them. There is a lot of fluff to speak about the BA assaulting prowess, but the codex has a huge focus on vehicles. Our best perks are the vehicle speed. Sure you can run a DoA list and take advantage of combat squads, D6 scatter, re-rolling DS, but the engines in our tanks give us our strongest fist.

 

GK are true masters of the assault, not just in fluff, but in codex as well. It is suicide for many codexs to close with them. I have had good results assaulting orks, necron, other BA players, but GK? Rarely. So play mech! It is our strongest power no matter what anybody else may say.

[The Yncarne]

@ArdezFurioso: Good points. I had considered a mech army when starting, but I really wanted to play a jump pack heavy army, so that has been my main focus to date. Makes me wonder what from Codex: BA will make it to the Codex: SM.

[Morticon]

There are loads of GK vs BA threads about. Take the time to read through them - there's sooooo much good advice there.

 

Also, and I'll try say this as nicely as I can (ie: not tryin to sound like a tool), but its really tough to take the gripe/complaint/moan seriously when you went in with that kind of army expecting it to do well.

 

Also, what points level are you playing?

[Mezkh]

A rock that slow and not fearless is a bad rock.

 

Can you not deepstrike anywhere on the board?

Do you not have Fear of the Darkness Libarians?

Do you not have an abundance of fast cheap tank hulls?

[Malus the Destroyer]

Missing the point. Paladins are a joke army. Ya, if you don't realise thier threat range, and try to assualt them, they will hurt killing 1 target a turn. But they are not what's broken in that dex. Big Purifier army with a pack of Psyflemen dreads (They can take 6, 3 ven, 3 heavy), and then you have issues of a list that is paper, rock, scissors, and a tactical nuke.

[Mezkh]

I take 300 points of Rhinos and win with 1000+ points to spare. next? ;)

[AGPO]

Three fast vindicators, combi-plas sternguard. Done.

[Morticon]

Three fast vindicators, combi-plas sternguard. Done.

 

Much better off with combi-melta.

[AGPO]

Yeah true, I forgot instant kill is important with paladins. Against normal terminators or PAGK I'd take the extra shot offered by plasma though.