I think I'm missing something very basic about close combat.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

Black Templars are monsters in assault. Their Crusader Squads (Tactical Squad equivalents) have the handy little option of switching their bolters with bolt pistols and Close Combat (CC) weapons that no other Space Marine Chapter has (barring Space Wolves). That means that each Marine will have 3 attacks on the charge, and a squad of ten will pound you with 30 attacks. Not a pretty prospect if you have a low Toughness like Eldar or Tau or if you have a terrible armour save, like Orks. Or both. Although they are decent shooters, like all Space Marines, they have a special rule called Kill Them All that I'll go over in the "Weaknesses" section (hint hint). So basically, against a Black Templar opponent, you better run like hell if you're even within a couple turns' assault range.

 

Okay, I am probably going to look like a complete FNG here, but how do initiates get three attacks on the charge? Does having a CCW give them an extra attack? If it does, none of the people I've played have told me, and it's not anywhere I've found, albeit after only a handful of games and not nearly having an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules. A BP/CCW initiate has, to my knowledge, one attack, plus one on the charge. Meaning two on the charge? Where is the extra attack coming from, I'm an FNG and I truly don't know.

 

Something I didn't go over yet is the Emperor's Champion, which is a 5-attack monster who hits at I5, S6, and has WS6.

 

Again, I do not see how he gets five attacks. The codex says 2. On the charge is one more to my knowledge. Making three. How do standard marines get three attacks and the EC gets five? Is there some very basic rule I've overlooked in trying to learn the game on the fly from the guys at the game store? Probably, but what is it? I feel like these are things I should know as a Black Templar player.

[Gurth]

Okay, I am probably going to look like a complete FNG here, but how do initiates get three attacks on the charge? Does having a CCW give them an extra attack?

You get an additional attack if you have two close-combat weapons, and pistols count as close-combat weapons — so a Black Templar with A1 but armed with a bolt pistol and a close-combat weapon actually has A2 (though not for the purposes of rules that use the stats as printed in the book). Charge, and you get another attack for the first turn of combat only, so three attacks on the charge.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

Okay, I am probably going to look like a complete FNG here, but how do initiates get three attacks on the charge? Does having a CCW give them an extra attack?

You get an additional attack if you have two close-combat weapons, and pistols count as close-combat weapons — so a Black Templar with A1 but armed with a bolt pistol and a close-combat weapon actually has A2 (though not for the purposes of rules that use the stats as printed in the book). Charge, and you get another attack for the first turn of combat only, so three attacks on the charge.

 

The BP counts as a CCW, that's what I was missing. I never knew that...holy (insert a suitable profanity here)...I was rampaging with one attack a turn.

 

I still don't get how the Champion gets five attacks on the charge though. The Black Sword gives two attacks, he has a BP so that's +1 for three. On the charge he gets an extra attack (4)...where is the fifth attack coming from? Do special characters get extra attacks on the charge or something? What's the rules for figuring out if models get extra attacks on the charge that regular grunts? I keep hearing how "such and such character gets X attacks on the charge" and X is more than their attacks +1. For example someone said Lightning claw termies get four attacks on the charge...is that one attack for each claw? Does a model armed with two CCW get an extra attack on the charge for each weapon, unless it's a pistol? I've genuinely tried to find these rules in the books, I dutifully look through the index, and then thumb to the glossary, but these tiny little rules seem to constantly elude me.

[dswanick]

Initiates : A1 + 1(second CCW) + 1(charge) = 3

Terminaors : A2 +1(second CCW) + 1(charge) = 4 [note: Lightning Claws only get the CCW bonus if the second CCW is another LC]

E.Champ. : A2 +1(second CCW) + 1(charge) = 4 [i don't know where a fifth attack might be coming from, the Terminator Honors is already included in his profile]

[Gurth]

The BP counts as a CCW, that's what I was missing. I never knew that...

It helps to read the rulebook ;)

 

I still don't get how the Champion gets five attacks on the charge though.

We're talking about a Black Templar model here, right? In that case I don't know — I don't have the Codex for that. However, a Chapter Champion in the regular Codex: Space Marines has three attacks, a bolt pistol and a boltgun, and may replace his boltgun with a combat blade: A3 +1 for two close-combat weapons +1 for charging = 5 attacks. Could be the one you mean is similar?

 

What's the rules for figuring out if models get extra attacks on the charge that regular grunts?

The basic rules are that everyone gets one extra attack for charging, unless they have a special rule that says otherwise.

 

For example someone said Lightning claw termies get four attacks on the charge...is that one attack for each claw?

Terminators have A2, and a pair of lightning claws is two close-combat weapons, so they get three attacks, plus another one for charging: four attacks.

 

Does a model armed with two CCW get an extra attack on the charge for each weapon, unless it's a pistol?

No, they get one extra attack, period.

[greatcrusade08]

the emp champion only gets 4 attacks on the charge.. you were misled by someone who made a mistake.

lesson one, dont beleive everything you hear

[Legatus]

The BP counts as a CCW, that's what I was missing. I never knew that...

Pistols counting as close combat weapons is described in the Rulebook on page 29 (ranged weapon types, under 'Pistol Weapons'), on page 37 (number of attacks, under second bullet point "+1 Two Weapons"), and on page 42 (close combat weapons, under 'Normal Close Combat Weapons'). For future reference.

[DarkGuard]

Emperor's Champion getting 5th attack from a Holy Relic I'm guessing. One turn only and has to be in range.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

It helps to read the rulebook ;)

 

I'm trying, it's just a lot of information to absorb and learn on the fly. When I have time I read one passage and try to commit it to memory. I just missed that bit about pistols. I genuinely try not to come here if I can find it in the rulebook.

[greatcrusade08]

it is a very big book, and lets be fair a new player cant remember it all.. lets not forget in a few months time we will all have to forget 5th edition and re-learn 6th

[Frosty the Pyro]

it is a very big book, and lets be fair a new player cant remember it all.. lets not forget in a few months time we will all have to forget 5th edition and re-learn 6th

 

 

May or may not be an issue for most folks, but thats the kind of thing I thrive on :)

 

Nothing quite like getting a big fresh new rule book to read, think on the cascading interactions between different rules, on how things changed. Trying to divine the reasons behind said changes. Lotsa fun.