DC and VV loadout

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Hi Guys, I've got 5 man squads of DC and VV and I'm looking for best loadouts for each, both with and without JP's as I have about 50 and I'm planning on magnetising my whole army.

 

Eventually I'll have bigger squads, so loadouts on larger sized squads would be helpful too.

 

Cheers guys!

[Erasmus of Baal]

IMO, don't bother planning for Vanguard Veterans without jump packs. The main advantage that VVs have over other units in the codex (between the Honor Guard, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and regular Assault Squads) is Heroic Intervention, which only works with jump packs. Sure, they would still be pretty nice in a Land Raider or such, but at that point I would prefer Death Company anyways.

 

Anyways, from what I can tell (I'm still pretty new to actually using the BA codex), it's usually considered best to include at least one Power Fist or Thunder Hammer in each unit just in case of having to deal with gigantic armored tanks or walkers, with the rest as a your-preference mix of ablative wounds (no equipment at all) or power weapons, possibly with lightning claws if you're a really big fan of those. The Power Fist or Thunder Hammer becomes especially important for Death Company that can get kited around the field or baited into bad situations really easily.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Cheap(ish) and cheerful. A power fist can be a bit iffy in smaller squads, but not an entire waste. Other guys have base wargear. Giving the VV some meltabombs can work. Never ever leave home without infernus pistols. 2 per 5 guys is enough, though DC can only have 1 per 5.

[JamesI]

I have found some success in running a Vanguard with a few sotrm shields, a power weapon (or lightning claw to taste) and a fist (or hammer). Add 1-2 meltabombs. Though this is usually a bit bigger than 5 man, at 5, I'd probably trim it a little. only 1 power weapon/fist most likely.

 

DC, at 5 man, I'd take 1 power weapon, 1 fist and thats it.

[Mezkh]

VV, Jumppacks, Double Powerweapons OR a Powerfist, and some Meltabombs. Leave one naked for wound allocation.

- Cheap, kills shooty units/stationary vehicles good.

With 10 Vanguard, I take a powerfist, 2 powerweapons, a lightning claw, and 4 Meltabombs. Combat squad the elements as needed.

 

5 Death Company, Jump Packs, Thunderhammer, Power Weapon, lead by Jump Pack Chaplain.

Larger squads, No Jump Packs, depends on transport. Landraiders/Stormravens get a couple of power weapons and a couple of fists, and BP+CCW, Rhinos get Bolters and double powerfist/TH

[Dunnaeph34rn473]

I'm a huge Lemartes fan so with DC I normally just take a powerfist or thunderhammer. Lemartes puts out plenty of power weapon wounds on his own. For just a straight 5 man unit though I'd take a fist and a power weapon. For 5 VV I'd take 2 storm shields, a fist and a claw. Since you lose a bonus pistol attack using a storm shield it's beneficial to put them on the models with a claw and a fist since they can't get a bonus attack from pistols anyways. I typically run a couple more members in my VV unit however. I usually run 7 with 3 storm shields, 2 claws and a fist, four guys just run with pistols and chainswords.

[Gv0zD]

I run Vanguards with the following loadout: Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield, Lightning Claw + Storm Shield, Lightning Claw + Bolt Pistol and two guys with Chainsword + Bolt Pistol. If I have points I give them Melta Bombs. And JumPacks are mandatory :D

 

As for Death Company I have yet to try Thunder Hammer + Bolter, two Bolter guys and two Chainsword + Bolt Pistol guys.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Cheers for all the help guys.

 

I had originally planned my 5 VV's in a RB, TH and SS, PF and bolt pistol x2, PW and bolt pistol x2. I'll give them all JP's and trim the weapons.

 

My DC have chainsword and bolt pistol x2, PF and bolt pistol x2 and PW and bolt pistol, again in a rhino/rb. I might leave as is but increase the squad size to 10.

 

Can I ask though, what's the benefit of bolters on DC?

 

Also, it worth making the squad 9 man and including a chappy in a rhino?

[BloodTzar]

Bolters are used in DC due to their relentless rule, as they can rapid fire and still be able to charge after that (reason why special weaps do get the Bolter instead)

 

On the other hand, I would never use DC w/out Chappy (or w.ever named char) because of the rerolls to H/W. Moreover I would never put DC in something other than Assault vehicle, just because of their rage rule.

 

~BT

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Wait rhino's aren't assault vehicles?

 

I did a quick google and this was someone else's response to them not being assault

 

"It's not necessarily a problem. BA rhino's are fast vehicles, which means that 18" movement range will give them a ton of mobility. You move flat out on turn 1, pop smoke, and next turn if you're within 12" of an enemy, you jump out, run up, and punch them. Otherwise, you keep on driving until you are."

 

So you still don't think they should be in a rhino?

[Mezkh]

Nothing wrong with DC in a cheap Rhino. It moves 18"to position them around the table, has 3 access points and they can't be pinned and are very unlikely to take wounds if it explodes.

 

Assault Ramps just give you an extra 6" of potential assault distance at the start of each turn. Is that worth springing 200 more points to get a Land Raider or Storm Raven? You decide :blink:

 

Bolters are 'mandatory' on Powerfist/TH models that don't benefit from the +1A from Bolt Pistols anyway. Relentless means they basically act as assault weapons also.

 

As for Bolters on normal guys? I like them because there are plenty of armies that caliber of firepower makes a mess of, and the ones they don't, your special weapons carry the day anyway. Generally in small squads I'd go bolt pistols as you'll probably need all you can get in CC, but say in a full 10 man squad, being able to tap out (10)20 shots after disembarking is useful too and you're still blowing through everything in combat anyway.

[bebe]

I do not use bolt pistols on my DC and I do use jump packs. I love the 12" move myself and you will not get kited by rage if you play smartly. My squad is:

 

Lemartes 385

5 Death Company, Thunderhammer, 2 Power Weapon, Chainswords, Jump Packs

 

This is my hammer that has never failed me against anything in the game including Assault Terminators, Harlequins, Wyches, you name it. They strike at three different initiatives and pack a punch for sure.

They are expensive. There is no denying that. But they are really effective when used properly and backed by the correct build. I'm not going to debate the merits of Lemartes. You need to use him in a game to

appreciate how good he is.

[Drunken Angel]

I run my DC in a storm raven so work around 5 models plus Lemartes, you will end up doing something similar but no matter what always always take a chaplain.

If you take a chaplain you end up choosing Lemartes every time.

I have been enjoying 1 thunderhammer 1 power fist 2 power weapons, Lemartes and 1 standard DC with bolt pistol and chainsword.

I hang a DC dread on the SR's grapples.

I run a TH to at least stun and reduce any MC to initiative 1 next turn or prevent any vehicle from shooting back, the power fist is insurance.

The 2 power weapons are there to load up the wounds early I dont like the DC taking too many hits back, they dont get storm shields so my idea of a storm shield "plan B" is to take more power weapons.

Lemartes is awesome and hits very hard but to make sure the charge is devastating to any target I take the hammer and fist, the dread is equipped with blood talons.

I know some run DC with fewer upgrades but I enjoy how hard it hits often you can multi-assault armour and troops with confidence.

Sunday the DC and dread multi-assaulted 2 GKSS squads and a GKT with GM.

The only thing that saved the last 2 GKT was game end.

Last night multi-assault again the fist and hammer went onto a doomsday ark and Lemartes and his guys took on 20 warriors, the dread was busy chopping up another 20 warriors.

Having the extra weapons gives flexibility I know combat resolution on the wrong turn can be tragic for so few models but I think that lacking storm shields the next best thing is more power weapons for the Death Company.

Re-rolling hits and wounds on the first charge is golden dont waste it.

I dont worry about getting kited much I used to but I have learn't Death Company with jump packs can and will catch and destroy most things

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm a bit surprised that infernuses don't make more of an appearance here. While it's true that they are costly, and have a considerable range issue, being able to pop transports open without the assistance of other units is pretty invaluable.

[bebe]

DC are a cc squad, MC and IC hunters. Even a single Thunderhammer/Powerfist will take care of vehicles if needed. Power weapons are much better in the squad then infernus pistols as anything they can shoot at you can charge. A hand flamer is probably better in most cases then an infernus psitol.

[Deschenus Maximus]

DC are a cc squad, MC and IC hunters.

Why would you go MC hunting with the one unit you want least to have their armour saves ignored?

Even a single Thunderhammer/Powerfist will take care of vehicles if needed.

Even if that was statistically true (it isn't - run the math on a power fist killing a tank moving at cruising speed), you are missing the point: the infernus allows you to pop a transport in the shooting phase so you can assault the contents instead of assaulting the tank, killing it and have the enemy troops disembark and shoot you to death in their turn.

 

Power weapons are much better in the squad then infernus pistols as anything they can shoot at you can charge.

I personnaly never put power weapons on my DC, but even if you do, there is nothing stopping you from having them AND infernus pistols, so...

 

A hand flamer is probably better in most cases then an infernus psitol.

Why? You have plenty enough troop-killing power loaded in your fists already, so you are far better off increasing your ability to kill vehicles than to make your anti-infantry capacity - which is already fantastic - slightly better.

[Drunken Angel]

DC have to be able to deal with everything they may encounter MC's, IC's, Elite units and infantry. Hand flamers are somewhat redundant in an anti fantry unit like Death Company and there is always a risk from too much shooting and model removal to deny the charge. An infernus pistol or plasma weapon is a great idea and could easily find a place in any Death Company I will take one now and again.

In my case I dont put an infernus pistol in the Death Company they assault in a storm raven with 4 twin linked assault cannon shots and a multimelta firing in support of their charge. I run baal predators or bikes somewhere around as extra backup if the raven gets tumbled early. The same approach would be true of a razorback or rhino carrying 5-10 Death Company. Death Company dont need the shooty weapons unless you have spare points, support the DC transport and pop enemy transport with other units, shooting side armour with a harassing unit like bikes is a better idea.

 

As a foot note I am finding the storm raven to be resilient transport against necron scarabs, its fast so they have to hit on sixes and then they are usually too weak to damage the armour on their first charge. It fares better than razors or baals with their rear armour of 10

[bebe]

Why would you go MC hunting with the one unit you want least to have their armour saves ignored?

Because 14 pw attacks will take an MC down quickly. Which brings me to this ...

 

I personally never put power weapons on my DC, but even if you do, there is nothing stopping you from having them AND infernus pistols, so...

I'm mystified unless you are using very large squads but even so I would have at least two. With five man squads I would never go without them. I get eight attacks

on the charge with two and that is without Lemartes who I use and yes I love the rerolls. I strike at three different iniatives too as I always bring a Thunderhammer -

so nice to reduce attacks from MCs/ICs and still great against vehicles.

 

Even if that was statistically true (it isn't - run the math on a power fist killing a tank moving at cruising speed), you are missing the point: the infernus allows you to pop a transport in the shooting phase so you can assault the contents instead of assaulting the tank, killing it and have the enemy troops disembark and shoot you to death in their turn.

Sorry - what statistics did I mention. A thunderhammer is nice insurance against vehicles which btw, are not my primary target. Why would I go after rhinos with troops? An infernus gets one shot at 3+. I get four attacks at 4+/6+. I'll take my chances on a more flexible weapon.

 

Why? You have plenty enough troop-killing power loaded in your fists already, so you are far better off increasing your ability to kill vehicles than to make your anti-infantry capacity - which is already fantastic - slightly better.

I don't use flamers but you have heard of cover right? I have seen dual hand flamers on DC. They can be effective. I would not use hand flamers or an infernus pistol but I prefer flamers by far.

 

I see the utility if you are going after vehicles as your primary target, I don't. I have melta and multi-merlta all over my list for that. I'll shoot the vehicle with one squad and then assault with my DC. Seems logical to me. I see your position on infernus psistols - I get what it is you are proposing. I just don't play DC that way nor do I believe - just my opinion - that

it is the best use of myb squad.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@DrunkenAngel:

 

While it is of course important to have backup for your infernus(es), the reason why having one (or two) is invaluable is because if your DC get lucky and destroy the transport carrying the troops you intend to charge, your stormraven and other support elements are now free to engage other armoured targets. That is a damned good thing, because that means another probably dead Rhino whose occupants you may multi-assault or assault during subsequent turn.

 

Because 14 pw attacks will take an MC down quickly. Which brings me to this ...

 

Ok, but why use DC to do that job when your firesupport should be taking care of MCs? Or do you play pure DoA? If so, what are your Sanguinary Guards doing?

 

I'm mystified unless you are using very large squads but even so I would have at least two. With five man squads I would never go without them. I get eight attacks

on the charge with two and that is without Lemartes who I use and yes I love the rerolls. I strike at three different iniatives too as I always bring a Thunderhammer -

so nice to reduce attacks from MCs/ICs and still great against vehicles.

 

I don't use them because they are wasted points when fighting stuff like Guard or Tau. I always pack a fist or hammer, though.

 

Sorry - what statistics did I mention. A thunderhammer is nice insurance against vehicles which btw, are not my primary target. Why would I go after rhinos with troops? An infernus gets one shot at 3+. I get four attacks at 4+/6+. I'll take my chances on a more flexible weapon.

 

1) Unless you have double thunderhammers, which is silly, you have 3 hammer attacks on the charge, not 4. 2) Your chances to kill a vehicle falls to less than 15% as soon as it moves more than 6 inches. That is really not reliable. A single infernus offers you a 31% chance to pop a rhino regardless of its speed. That is pretty good. In a 10-man squad, where you have 2, that climbs to 62%, which is pretty reliable. 3) You are still missing the point - you want the infernus so that you can kill the transport in the shooting phase and then assault the disembarked troops in the assault phase instead of killing the rhino in the assault phase and then get focus-fired down in the opponent's shooting phase. I'm not advocating using DC to hunt tanks - I'm telling you that having an infernus makes them that much better at their troop-killing job. I'm also not telling you to drop the fist/hammer - they are a good addition to your squad so that they can act as BACKUP to the infernus when it misses.

 

I don't use flamers but you have heard of cover right? I have seen dual hand flamers on DC. They can be effective. I would not use hand flamers or an infernus pistol but I prefer flamers by far.

 

Why do you care about cover? You have grenades, and are going to deliver the beatdown in the assault phase anyways... so, again, what's the point of the flamers?

 

I see the utility if you are going after vehicles as your primary target, I don't. I have melta and multi-merlta all over my list for that. I'll shoot the vehicle with one squad and then assault with my DC. Seems logical to me. I see your position on infernus psistols - I get what it is you are proposing. I just don't play DC that way nor do I believe - just my opinion - that it is the best use of myb squad.

 

Like I said to DrunkenAngel, it's good to have backup to open transports for your DC, but it's even better for the DC to be able to open the transports themselves so that your other units can shoot at other tanks.

[bebe]

Yes we are using different lists. My list is a variant of the blood rodeo. It is jumpers and bikes only. No Sang Guard inmy list at all. My DC are my hammer for cc. As far as Guard and Tau go ... well plasma tau and castled up guard are my worst match up. Changing the configuration of my DC to save 30 points will not resolve that issue. I rely on my double meltas in each squad and my MM attack bikes to take care of vehicles. My thunderhammer is just a bit of extra insurance in case i have no choice but to go after a vehicle. Now about flamers - you mention guard and tau. Expand that to Orks and Nids. Although the flamer is only S3 a five man squad that decides to include a few will fare much better against a large blob of Geqs. Small DC blobs can definitely use the extra wounds on these squads.

I understand perfectly where you are coming from. I do not think my DC ever need to go after tanks - I have better options for it and meltas are ten points a pop - infernus 15 points with a shorter range. I would much rather have an extra power sword over an infernus as my DC are going after Meq and Teq squads. I can take out Geq with my Assault marines easily. I don't use rhinos or stormravens. I think that is where are lists differ and consequently are set up for our DC. I use a smaller squad w/Lemartes. I don't use ten man DC squads. So I need my PW attacks on the charge to really hurt my opponent.

Interesting ...

We really need to discuss builds to determine the optimum set up for DC. This is a more involved discussion than I anticipated as my view was myopic - jump pack DC in a DoA/Bike list or just all DoA with attack bike back up - I field both. A hybrid list with vehicles and storm ravens would indeed require me to rethink what I want to do with my DC or even if they are needed at all.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Yes we are using different lists. My list is a variant of the blood rodeo. It is jumpers and bikes only. No Sang Guard inmy list at all. My DC are my hammer for cc.

 

Interesting. Why did you pick DC over Sang Guards?

 

As far as Guard and Tau go ... well plasma tau and castled up guard are my worst match up. Changing the configuration of my DC to save 30 points will not resolve that issue.

 

Well in the case of meched-up and castled Guard, switching 1 power weapon for 1 infernus would help a little.

 

I rely on my double meltas in each squad and my MM attack bikes to take care of vehicles. My thunderhammer is just a bit of extra insurance in case i have no choice but to go after a vehicle. Now about flamers - you mention guard and tau. Expand that to Orks and Nids. Although the flamer is only S3 a five man squad that decides to include a few will fare much better against a large blob of Geqs. Small DC blobs can definitely use the extra wounds on these squads.

 

Yep, but from what you are telling me about your list, it doesn't sound like it needs that little bit of help against soft targets; hard targets seem like they are more of a problem, even if only a little bit more.

 

I understand perfectly where you are coming from. I do not think my DC ever need to go after tanks - I have better options for it and meltas are ten points a pop - infernus 15 points with a shorter range. I would much rather have an extra power sword over an infernus as my DC are going after Meq and Teq squads. I can take out Geq with my Assault marines easily. I don't use rhinos or stormravens. I think that is where are lists differ and consequently are set up for our DC. I use a smaller squad w/Lemartes. I don't use ten man DC squads. So I need my PW attacks on the charge to really hurt my opponent.

 

I'm not going to argue that infernuses are teh sh*t - they obviously have some considerable shortcomings (cost and range). But with that said, I think they are still invaluable for squads that do not have access to full-sized meltas due to the duality this gives the squad. Duality is good because it makes you battleplan more flexible.

[Mezkh]

IP's are not some magic bullet for DC; personally I think they're also rather a waste. Mine have duality - they kill troops and they kill tanks in HtH. That's what Str 9 is for! in HtH you get all the benefits of striking vs rear armour, auto hits, ignoring cover saves, etc. If you're within 3" of a tank, you can just assault it.

 

Besides, if you have IP's, you're wasting your Bolters.

 

I'd stick with Meltaguns and Meltabombs and support vehicles for AT.

[Deschenus Maximus]

IP's are not some magic bullet for DC; personally I think they're also rather a waste. Mine have duality - they kill troops and they kill tanks in HtH. That's what Str 9 is for! in HtH you get all the benefits of striking vs rear armour, auto hits, ignoring cover saves, etc.

 

Still fails to take into account that it's better to kill the tank during the shooting phase so you can assault the transported troops. Auto-hits? Not against a decent player. If you're withing 3 inches of a tank with an infernus, most likely your opponent is not getting a cover save :D

 

Besides, if you have IP's, you're wasting your Bolters.

 

Not necesseraily. Just because you have an IP doesn't mean you are suddenly a dedicated tank-hunting unit. If there are already some troops on foot, you might as well assault those.

[bebe]

Interesting. Why did you pick DC over Sang Guards?

It's a flesh tearer army. It just seems right. And DC do the job.

 

Yep, but from what you are telling me about your list, it doesn't sound like it needs that little bit of help against soft targets; hard targets seem like they are more of a problem, even if only a little bit more.

My worst match ups are actually blob armies where they can biuffer theor dakkawith disposable troops ... like castled guard. Against Orks and Nids I need more help with softer targets. Against mech SM ... well one infernus pistol or

an extra power weapon ... if I demech with meltas I prefer the pw. But again - that is my build. You might indeed be better with the infernus. I don't know what you are playing. But most BA lists have AT without DC.

 

I know you want to shoot and assault with the same squad. But I don't want my bikes or even small squads of jumpers rushing into assault. That is what my DC are for. My other squads are there for their meltas and to support my DC.

So I'll use the meltas and combine squads for assault when needed. Which again makes those infernus better but I'll still stick with pws. Your list might need infernus pistols. I used them on my Sang Guard when I took them, I now use

only flesh tearer lists so the sang guard were sold off for more bikes and terminators - which go in when playing 2000+. I love a deathstar termie unit with FC/FNP.

[Mezkh]

IP's are not some magic bullet for DC; personally I think they're also rather a waste. Mine have duality - they kill troops and they kill tanks in HtH. That's what Str 9 is for! in HtH you get all the benefits of striking vs rear armour, auto hits, ignoring cover saves, etc.

 

Still fails to take into account that it's better to kill the tank during the shooting phase so you can assault the transported troops. Auto-hits? Not against a decent player. If you're withing 3 inches of a tank with an infernus, most likely your opponent is not getting a cover save :P

 

Besides, if you have IP's, you're wasting your Bolters.

 

Not necesseraily. Just because you have an IP doesn't mean you are suddenly a dedicated tank-hunting unit. If there are already some troops on foot, you might as well assault those.

 

The amount of opportunities you will have to both blow up a transport and simultaneously assault the troops inside, the dice actually allow it to happen, and it meaningfully affects the game is infintesimal.

 

It's 15 points for each 3+ to hit, 4+ smoke or flat out, then 4+ to disembark the troops who may or may not be placed in assault range.

 

There is more efficient AT per point spent in troops and HS. if in a pinch the DC are needed as can openers then they can succeed through weight of dice on most in HTH. And even the best players cannot circumvent immobile vehicles being hit in CC automatically.

 

If infernus were 5 points they would be good. More than half a powerfist though is too costly