How would you counter this

[OSO88]

Ok so time for feedback, we had our first big tournament of the year and it turns out after someone warned everyone about a certain BT player conviently forgetting target priority tests he's list wasn't that great anymore, even though I know of 2 matches he had "forgotten" about it again, also he pulled a fast one by claiming that you have to measure to the centre of the objective rather then the edge as is the norm in our community and getting a win that way. So besides all the side show politics I still think the list is nasty against the current mech meta game, but just not as powerfull as it was last year ;)

[DarkGuard]

Ah, dirty tricks, didn't know that stratagem was still in play. ;)

 

Hope he got a bit of kicking there, and with him playing normally, as you said his list shouldn't be as hard.

[OSO88]

The TO correctly said that it it something that has to be dicussed before the game , so they did a dice roll off and sadly it went the BT players way. However back to actual tactics, the palyer that were wanred beforehand did use the target priority tests to good advantage, heck he got beaten 9-5 on killpoints by a GK player using deamonhosts :)

[dswanick]

turns out after someone warned everyone about a certain BT player conviently forgetting target priority tests he's list wasn't that great anymore, even though I know of 2 matches he had "forgotten" about it again,

the palyer that were wanred beforehand did use the target priority tests to good advantage

Are you aware that target priority tests no longer exist in the current edition of 40k?

[DarkGuard]

Are you aware that target priority tests no longer exist in the current edition of 40k?

 

I think we're all aware of that fact dswanick. However, GW saw fit to keep it for Black Templars as they have a rule pertaining to it in their Codex, here's the FAQ entry:

 

Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)

A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the closest target.

[dswanick]

Are you aware that target priority tests no longer exist in the current edition of 40k?

 

I think we're all aware of that fact dswanick. However, GW saw fit to keep it for Black Templars as they have a rule pertaining to it in their Codex, here's the FAQ entry:

 

Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)

A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the closest target.

Which is direct contradiction to this FAQ

Q: If my Codex includes some options (or other rules) that seem to have no effect in the new edition, are you going to publish an errata to change them to something else that does work?

A: No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no effect, it simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather than change its effects through an errata.

So great, according to the C:BT FAQ I have a -1 Leadership to a test that a unit is never called upon to take.

If a Black Templar Infantry, Jump Infantry or Bike unit shoots in the Shooting phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its leadership (which is all fine and dandy, and works according to the Codex and FAQ) when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest(on a test the rules as written never call for you to make, nor tell you the consequences of success or failure).

;)

Yes, I played 4th Edition (and 3rd, and 2nd, and some Rogue Trader) so I remember the 4th Target Priority rules - but that doesn't mean that new players do, nor does it matter as we're playing 5th Ed where a unit is never called upon to make the test that the BT unit gets a -1 Leadership to when called upon to make it (which they never will be, by RAW). Gawd, I love GW. :P

[ShinyRhino]

Problem is that the BRB FAQ does not overrule this specific instance of a target priority test.

 

The FAQ for Kill Them All states that Infantry, Jump Infantry, and Bikes MUST test. The now-modified rule in the codex tells you how to do so (with a -1 modifier). There is no mention in either instance of the Target Priority rule from the 4th Edition Codex, so the test still exists within the confines of the BT codex. Now, if the Codex specifically mentioned the Target Priority rule, you'd have to ignore it.

Remember the tiers of control for rulebooks: Codex > BRB, which expands into Codex+FAQ > BRB+FAQ.

[OSO88]

Well I only started playing in 5tht ed, however I think the BT FAQ makes it fairly clear that it still applies, what I would agree with is that I don't know what happens when he fails because I didn't play 4th ed.

[dswanick]

Problem is that the BRB FAQ does not overrule this specific instance of a target priority test.

 

The FAQ for Kill Them All states that Infantry, Jump Infantry, and Bikes MUST test. The now-modified rule in the codex tells you how to do so (with a -1 modifier). There is no mention in either instance of the Target Priority rule from the 4th Edition Codex, so the test still exists within the confines of the BT codex. Now, if the Codex specifically mentioned the Target Priority rule, you'd have to ignore it.

Remember the tiers of control for rulebooks: Codex > BRB, which expands into Codex+FAQ > BRB+FAQ.

That's all fine and dandy. So using the "Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 5th Edition", the "Codex: Black Templars", and the FAQs please answer the following questions by RaW - please cite rules quotes or page numbers as needed.

- When must a BT Infantry, Jump Infantry, or Bike unit make this Leadership test? (Ease one here).

- What conditions apply to this test?

- What is the result of a failure of this test?

- What is the result of passing this test?

 

Here's my "interpretation" of this test, please prove it wrong using the above cited sources. :rolleyes:

"TARGET PRIORITY

If a unit was forced to move in the previous players turn due to Compulsary Movement, it must shoot at the unit towards which it moved. The unit may only shoot Assault and Pistol weapons, and must Assault the target unit if able. The player may take a Leadership test to shoot normally, this is referred to as a "Target Priority" test. Failure of this test prevents the unit from tacking any action in its turn, as confusion and conflicting orders reigns."

[DarkGuard]

Here's a nice long post from me on why, according to the rules, Kill Them All still applies, no arguments or questions asked.

 

First, 4th Ed Codex. 4th Ed rules has Target Priority, which IIRC meant that in shooting if you wished to target a unit that wasn't the closest visible enemy unit, you had to pass a Leadership test, if you failed you shot the nearest target. Black Templars has a rule that build on it, called Kill Them All, which I'll now quote from the Black Templars Codex:

 

If a Black Templar Infantry, Jump Infantry or Bike unit shoots in the Shooting phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule and follow the normal rules for target priority in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

 

So we have here conditions and consequences of this test for Infantry, Jump Infantry and Bike models, every other unit in the Templar Codex is vehicles. Vehicles are referred to in context of an out of date rulebook though. This is then fixed in the Errata of C:BT FAQ 1.1:

 

Page 23 – Kill Them All

Ignore “and follow the normal rules for target priority in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.” in the last sentence.

 

So the original rule from the first quote is now this: If a Black Templar Infantry, Jump Infantry or Bike unit shoots in the Shooting phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule.

 

And then people asked if this rule still applied to Black Templars now target priority is no longer in the BRB. And the FAQ section in the same FAQ says this:

 

Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)

A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the closest target.

 

So it's still in effect.

 

I believe I've answered all your questions satisfactorily no? :)

 

I've given why they must take the test, the conditions of it, the consequences of passing and failure, and there is no longer any reference to an out of date rule.

 

Bottom line is, non-vehicle units of Black Templars still take target priority (though it's not called that), at -1 Ld.

[dswanick]

I believe I've answered all your questions satisfactorily no? :cuss

No, actually you failed the challenge - because you had to refer to the 4th Edition rulebook for the target priority test rule.. Notice that the challenge only allowed current rules - 5th Ed Rulebook, Current print Codex, and most recent FAQs.

The problem was, is, and will remain that "target priority" tests are not a rule in the current Rulebook and the complete rule is not reprinted in the Black Templars Codex. So the rule is fundamentally broken and therefore, according to the FAQ, no longer in force.

 

The rule in the C:BT doesn't tell you how to take the test, or what the results are on a success or failure. The only thing it tells you is that it is taken when the unit wishes to fire at a unit other than the closest. It also tells you the test is at a -1 Leadership. You have to assume that it is an otherwise standard Leadership test (ie 2d6, although it could just as easily be using 7d6). It doesn't tell you what happens if you fail (do you not fire? are you forced to fire at the closest unit instead? does your target unit count as being in Cover?). It also doesn't tell you what happens if you succeed (one would hope that you're allowed to fire at the unit of your choice, but do the shots automatically hit? Do they always count as Rending?). Without the 4th Ed rulebbok rule, you can make up any rules you want to count as a "target priority" test, but you can't (by the current ruleset) prove any of it is RAW. And since the FAQ says that any rule which makes no sense by the current crop of RAW is ignored, so are "target priority" test - which renders the -1 Leadership to such test moot.

[OSO88]

I think that we should also remember that this is GW we are talking about, masters of contridiction. Also I think the arguement can be made that the FAQ you refer to that says we should ignore rules not found in the new edition BRB is a BRB FAQ, so if codex trumps BRB then codex FAQ trumps BRB FAQ?

[DarkGuard]

I believe I've answered all your questions satisfactorily no? :)

No, actually you failed the challenge - because you had to refer to the 4th Edition rulebook for the target priority test rule.. Notice that the challenge only allowed current rules - 5th Ed Rulebook, Current print Codex, and most recent FAQs.

The problem was, is, and will remain that "target priority" tests are not a rule in the current Rulebook and the complete rule is not reprinted in the Black Templars Codex. So the rule is fundamentally broken and therefore, according to the FAQ, no longer in force.

 

The rule in the C:BT doesn't tell you how to take the test, or what the results are on a success or failure. The only thing it tells you is that it is taken when the unit wishes to fire at a unit other than the closest. It also tells you the test is at a -1 Leadership. You have to assume that it is an otherwise standard Leadership test (ie 2d6, although it could just as easily be using 7d6). It doesn't tell you what happens if you fail (do you not fire? are you forced to fire at the closest unit instead? does your target unit count as being in Cover?). It also doesn't tell you what happens if you succeed (one would hope that you're allowed to fire at the unit of your choice, but do the shots automatically hit? Do they always count as Rending?). Without the 4th Ed rulebbok rule, you can make up any rules you want to count as a "target priority" test, but you can't (by the current ruleset) prove any of it is RAW. And since the FAQ says that any rule which makes no sense by the current crop of RAW is ignored, so are "target priority" test - which renders the -1 Leadership to such test moot.

 

Completely wrong dswanick. I nowhere in my post quoted the 4th Ed rulebook, I don't know where you came to the conclusion of that.

 

I mentioned, for completeness sake, the general gist of what target priority was, for those reading the topic who have only played 5th Ed.

 

However, all the quotes came from Codex:BT, which while 4th Ed, is still in effect, and the FAQs. As quoted in C:BT, and with a little errata help from the FAQ, the rule is described in entirety, all you need to know is there.

 

It clearly states that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bike units must take a Leadership test at -1Ld to shoot at a unit that isn't the closest, that's the condition of the rule. The consequence is also give here, pass and you can shoot what you like, fail and you shoot the closest unit. The last sentence in their Codex which refers to the 4th Ed rule of target priority is written out by the FAQ. So the Kill Them All rule is that, Kill Them All, not target priority. It functions like target priority but isn't, and all you need to know about it is in that paragraph, that's why the FAQ said it functions fine on its own, as there is actually no reference to target priority.

 

Right now you're just being difficult, not sure if it's deliberate or not, but you are so, so wrong.

[dswanick]

I think that we should also remember that this is GW we are talking about, masters of contridiction. Also I think the arguement can be made that the FAQ you refer to that says we should ignore rules not found in the new edition BRB is a BRB FAQ, so if codex trumps BRB then codex FAQ trumps BRB FAQ?

I'm not disagreeing with that stance. But that doesn't magically impart the knowledge of what, when and how a Target Priority test is performed. Yes, the C:BT FAQ tells you to take the test, show me in writting (using only the current ruleset) how that is to be performed, and what the consequences of success or failure are - still waiting...

 

As I stated before, the C:BT FAQ says the "Kill 'em All" rule works just fine. And I agree. For applying a -1 Leadership to Target Priority tests, the "Kill 'em All" rule is still a perfectly functional rule.

As the BRB FAQ states "ignore all rules which no longer make sense given the current rule set". The Target Priority test no longer exists. There are no written rules which detail how to take a Target Priority test.

Therefore C:BT works to apply a -1 Leadership to a test which no longer exists in the current version of the game. Therefore it is a perfectly functional rule with absolutley no effect.

 

Yes, I know GW blows at rules-writting - they have for the fifteen years I've been playing this game. That doesn't change the stance of a T.O. who insist on using Kill 'em All Target Priority tests without a house-rule detailing how BT are supposed to make Target Priority tests and then claiming that it is GW RAW is full of it. If said T.O. wanted to include the text of the rule from the 4th Ed Rulebook in the tournament packet, all well and good. But he can't just say - the FAQ says it's so, so it's so. That's just delusional.

[dswanick]

Completely wrong dswanick.

Right now you're just being difficult, not sure if it's deliberate or not, but you are so, so wrong.

Well, keep telling yourself that. Your own quotes of the BRB, Codex, and FAQ fail to answer the questions put forth. Sure, some of the stuff can be infered from the context, but it does not spell it out as a functional rule. You're reading into what is printed the things you know from the 4th Ed Priority Tests, and claiming that it spells them out - sorry, but nope.

[DarkGuard]

Completely wrong dswanick.

Right now you're just being difficult, not sure if it's deliberate or not, but you are so, so wrong.

Well, keep telling yourself that. Your own quotes of the BRB, Codex, and FAQ fail to answer the questions put forth. Sure, some of the stuff can be infered from the context, but it does not spell it out as a functional rule. You're reading into what is printed the things you know from the 4th Ed Priority Tests, and claiming that it spells them out - sorry, but nope.

 

Once again, I nowhere in that post quoted the 4th Ed BRB, or the 5th Ed BRB. All of the quotes, you know, the test in quote brackets, came from C:BT, and C:BT FAQ, which are functional documents. The Errata removed all mention to target priority, so there is no target priority. There is only "Kill Them All", which specifies condition and consequence. It's quite straight forward, but you keep telling yourself it's not a functional rule.

[dswanick]

Completely wrong dswanick.

Right now you're just being difficult, not sure if it's deliberate or not, but you are so, so wrong.

Well, keep telling yourself that. Your own quotes of the BRB, Codex, and FAQ fail to answer the questions put forth. Sure, some of the stuff can be infered from the context, but it does not spell it out as a functional rule. You're reading into what is printed the things you know from the 4th Ed Priority Tests, and claiming that it spells them out - sorry, but nope.

 

Once again, I nowhere in that post quoted the 4th Ed BRB, or the 5th Ed BRB. All of the quotes, you know, the test in quote brackets, came from C:BT, and C:BT FAQ, which are functional documents. The Errata removed all mention to target priority, so there is no target priority. There is only "Kill Them All", which specifies condition and consequence. It's quite straight forward, but you keep telling yourself it's not a functional rule.

Correct, you didn't quote any BRB rules - which is where this mythical rule you want to use should reside. The removal of references to the Target Priority test comes from the Vehicle part of the rule - which is not key to what is being discussed here. The remainder of the Kill 'em All rule on C:BT fails to specifiy several necessary pieces for it to be considered a "functional" rule.

 

For anyone and everyone, not just DarkGuard - here's a pop quiz. Please answer each question to yourself, using only RAW from the BRB 5th Edition, current print Codex: Black Templars, and the most current version of each FAQ.

A unit subject to Kill 'em All is faced by two units, one clearly closer than the other. When must the Leadership test be performed if the player doesn't wish to target the closer unit?

A- At the start of the player's turn, before moving any units.

B- Prior to nominating a target unit for the unit shooting.

C- After declaring shots at the further unit.

D- Target Priority tests are not a part of this edition of Warhammer 40,000.

 

If the subject unit fails its Leadership test to overcome Kill 'em All, can the subject unit shoot at the unit closest to it?

A- No they must Run! towards the closest unit and Assault, if possible.

B- Since they failed the test, they must nominate the closest unit as their target. The target unit counts as being in Cover, as the leader struggles to bring his men to shoot at the further unit before failing.

C- No, since the subject unit declared that they are shooting at the further unit, they may not shoot this turn becuase a unit may not fire at multiple targets nor "change target units" after declaring their target - just as if they had been found to be out of range, the shots are simply "misses".

D- Target Priority tests are not a part of this edition of Warhammer 40,000.

 

If the subject unit passes it's Leadership test to overcome Kill 'em All, what is the result.

A- The subject unit may shoot at any unit on the board, regardless of Line of Sight.

B- The subject unit may nominate any unit as its target, always counts as Moving and must Assault the nominated target unit if possible.

C- The subject unit fires at the nominated target, hitting automatically with all shots. The sbject unit gets an additional +1 Attacks if they Charge this Assault Phase.

D- Target Priority tests are not a part of this edition of Warhammer 40,000.

The answer to the first question is followed through in each successive question. If your answers were D, D, D - congratulations you and I are on the same page. If you answered A to the first question then you must be willing to accept all the answers are A, because the rules don't specify any of this information - you must be willing to leave all these decisions up to the whim of the player or you are referencing the 4th Ed Rulebook or your memory of same.

 

See, here's the problem - by RAW :

The Kill 'em All rule as erratad states that you must take a Leadership test at -1 when a unit "shoots in the shooting phase". When is a unit considered to "shoot in the shooting phase" in 5th Edition? That would be "Step 1 Pick a target & check line of sight". So you Pick a target & check line of sight, the subject unit is now "shooting", now you make a Leadership test at -1 to fulfiull the requirement set forth in Kill 'em All. What happens if you fail? 5th Edition doesn't allow for the changing of a unit's designated target after declaring a target. So by RAW, you automatically miss?

Now before you go saying well the "when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest" tells us to make the Leadership test prior to Step 1 Designating a target, I draw your attention to the word "when". When is a unit called upon to make a Leadership test to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest? By RAW, never in 5th Edition. In 4th Edition, this test was "Step 1 Choose a target" which preceded "Step 2 Check Line of Sight and Range". So in 4th Edition, the nomination of a target preceded the LoS and Range steps. In 5th Edition, it does not. Since you can't have a "Step 0" you are now forced to make a Leadership test when Picking a Target and checking Line of Sight, but on failure there is no allowance to change your selected target to the closest one. Rule broken - have a great day guys. :)

[DarkGuard]

I'm not going to even answer that quiz, because you purposefully made up wrong answers. C:BT is clear about it, if you wish to target a unit that isn't the closest you test leadership, if you pass you can pick that target, if you fail you go for the closest one. It may be implied, but RAI the rule is clear.

 

The problem here is your rigid adherence to RAW in relation to a 4th Ed Codex, in a game where the number 1 rule is "have fun", which is what I intend to do in my games. Crucifying a 4th Ed Codex rule because of an obscure way of applying 5th rules isn't having fun. It's a roundabout way of trying to get an advantage in game. The FAQ says it still applies. No, GW, the guys who made the game and make all the models, say it applies. In an official GW document. And every reasonable gamer, regardless of whether they have played 4th Ed or not, can pretty much clearly understand the rule and how it will be played.

 

I'm not going to repeat my previous posts, especially when you're being difficult. I believe my previous posts have clearly outlined why Kill Them All isn't broken and perfectly valid as you take it, and right now we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Brother Tual]

DarkGuard is right. The FAQ says they still take the test and it matters not if you believe it to be a 4th ed rule or not. Its in THEIR codex. It is simple as that.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Both sides have exposed their views and since this is going in circles and getting too personal, some posts were removed and I ask both sides to relax and take a break, since it's obvious none is going to be convinced. Agree to disagree and move on.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Both sides have exposed their views and since this is going in circles and getting too personal, some posts were removed and I ask both sides to relax and take a break, since it's obvious none is going to be convinced. Agree to disagree and move on.

 

Since it was my post removed, allow me to apologize. I didn't think it was exceptionally vitriolic or insulting, but apparently it was. My bad.

[Roma]

Take note that: he doesnt have to move full D6 for RZ, its a consolidation move.

 

Kill them all still works, because the rule doesnt exist but the FAQ says they still have to chek when firing at non closest unit.

[pyroknight]

I have never played 4th edition and have no idea what a target priority test is. I will attempt to decipher this rule using only my raw knowledge of 5th edition. I have no bias toward any position and will attempt to show what is there and what is not.

 

Post FAQ, the rule is this:

If a Black Templar Infantry, Jump Infantry or Bike unit shoots in the Shooting phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest.

 

If a Black Templar Infantry, Jump Infantry or Bike unit…

I know what those are, that seems clear enough

 

…shoots in the Shooting phase…

We still shoot in the shooting phase.

 

…it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership…

I know what a leadership test is and I know what a -1 modifier does to it.

 

…when testing…

This is a problem. I know what a leadership test is, but it doesn’t say I must take one. It says when I take one, assuming I must be taking one already; which I am not. This makes me wonder when and why this test should occur. Lets see if I can figure it out.

 

to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest.

Ok so now I know what the test is supposed to be for. So if I had to make a leadership test to target an enemy unit that is not the closest, I would take a -1 penalty to leadership. But I don’t have to make a test. This leads me to believe this rule does not apply to me.

 

Then we look at this FAQ:

Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)

A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the closest target.

Okay, this says that I must test. I know this is a leadership test, and I have to make it in order to not shoot the closest target. So this leads me to the following conclusion.

My unit wants to shoot…

A. I target the closest unit and do not test.

B. I want to target a unit that is not the closest and do a leadership test at -1. If I pass said test, I can shoot at that unit as I desired. If I fail said test…I have no idea what happens.

I can guess 2 options:

1. The shot is lost, like night fighting rules

2. I can just choose to shoot at the closest target.

 

But I have no way of knowing which of these is correct. It doesn't say if make the test after targeting a specific unit or simply after stating my intention to see if i can.

If the first case is true, then by 5th edition raw, I lean more toward option 1 that I would lose the shot; just like how night fighting is done. If the second condition is true, then i see no reason why i couldn't just chose to target the closest unit, since i failed to be able to target any other.

 

Ultimately I think I would need to discuss it with my opponent and roll off using the most important rule if he did not know either.

 

Those are the rules as best as I can interpret them. It is clear that I must test, but it is not perfectly clear what all the results of that test are or when exactly it occurs.

[Voloch]

Kill Them All! is a C:BT rule that applies to them and noone else. It is NOT a 5th ed rule, which is why the FAQ SPECIFICALLY stated that you remove the "... and follow the normal rules for target priority in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

 

The last sentence end like this after the FAQ: "Vehicles are unaffected by this rule.". Now there is no reference to similar 4th ed. rules and C:BT and 5th ed are both intact, neither being contradictory.

 

It is a disadvantage to C:BT and one that we live with just fine because our armour is mostly BLACK.