My view on Grey Knights

[DK1]

I write this in the realization that the mass of “Grey Knights are overpowered” threads are bombarding the forums, and someone needs to level the playing field. I don’t in any way claim to be a master at this, but I have collected enough armies to see why certain armies are the way they are. I have collected Tau, Daemons, Space Wolfs, Old Grey Knights, New Grey Knights, Space Marines and Dark Angels. In turn I have helped friends in our LGS work on their armies as well.

 

I have come to realize the base points cost in any army book charges points for potential power as well as base cost. Here is a breakdown of Grey Knights vs Space Marines and why GK would seem overpowered.

At 200pts

SM= 10man team, plasma Rifle, Plasma cannon, Plasma pistol.

GK= 10man team

 

Now at ranged, the SM would win on average, even tho the GK would fire 20 rounds on the move, the SM squad out ranges with the cannon, and once the GK could fire the SM squad it putting out 2 AP2 weapon each turn. The closer the GK squad gets, the more damage they take. By average the GK squad should not be able to get into CC since taking 3-4 causalities per turn.

 

Now in the event that the GK have a rhino, the SM could change up to a lascannon and las-Razorback and drop the plasma pistol. Again the likely hood of GK getting close under two lascannons and once slogging after the Rhino is destroyed again will not make it into CC.

 

Now for 265pts the SM can take a 10man team, lascannon, plasma, Razorback w/lascannon. The spam of 1 TL las and 1 normal las.

Due to GK upgrade weapons only being 24” range, they have to get closer to do any real damage.

 

If the GK squad gets into CC then not counting charge, on average the GK will cause 5 causalities vs SM causing 2.5 per assault phase.

 

Down to the Dreadnough Auto cannon spams. Now one on one the SM can field 2 ways for same or less pts, one being with just a lascannon, only needing a 3+ to glance the GK dreadnought armor, or with same load out of 2 auto cannons and needing a 5+ to glance with 10pts less on the price.

However the biggest counter to GK Dreadnought auto cannon spam is Assault Terminators, heres why.

For 3 Heavy choice Dreadnoughts armed with 2 Auto cannons you’re looking at 405pts. That brings 12 S8 shots at 48” of Transport popping goodness. However in our LGS a friend of mine counters with 1 10man squad of SS/TH terminators, in the first turn has scouts Infiltrate and bring a teleport homer. Whenever he gets the reserve roll passed he brings them in and starts to charge my Dreadnoughts, normally he hits them by turn 4, getting the reserve roll by turn 3. This isn’t the most affective tactic but it has made me split up my Dreadnoughts to the far corners of my DZ. His new trick is taking 6 Dreadnoughts (master of the forge) with drop pods and in the first turn bringing in 4 of them (taking two troops in Pods so his number is 8) and landing them as close as possible to mine. When I have taken 6 Auto cannon dreads I lose about 2-3 of them first turn, and in the turn he charges his Dreads vs mine it’s all over. At this point I have about 2 of his Dreads by turn 2 charging me, and 2 more coming in to help.

 

In all its not impossible, just have to build for it. I see the change in what GW is making 40k now, and in my option, its gearing toward getting rid of the “one list to rule them all” effect. The GK got nurffed from the old codex, but the power was just leveled out to the whole army. I miss my WS5, S6 standered, 2A with or without a charge, always fighting as if night conditions, Psycannons ignored INV svs and Terminators that would hand out death like the current Draigowing. But the army is more playable now.

Overall, GK rule the CC world, with the grenades and Force weapons and champions, GK hit the hardest up close. That leaves the Blood Angels to be the fastest CC army, the Space Wolfs to the most survivable assault army, and the Black Templar (with the right vow) the most adaptable CC/Range army (rerolls to hit and can take lascannons with a 5man team.)

 

In closing, I know not everyone will agree with me, and as this being my experience I’m only trying to help out thos that feel they are getting hosed. Just make sure you outnumber GK when charging, and thin them at range.

[TheDevourer]

To be honest comparing one unit to another is not the way to go. It all depends on a composition of units. And lets face it grey knights can get a lot of ranged punch by playing upgraded rifledreads for little points in comparison to other armies. Each codex has strong units, a variety of midfield units and weak units, this leads to the result that certain armies in themselves are not overpowered. They become so when players build lists that aim at playing as beardy as possible and winning the majority of games. This can be done with any codex that is fitted into the current ruleset. Say BA, SW, GK or IG. If everyone fields maximised lists you will find that some lists counter others. If the enemy knows exactly what you field this is unbelievably easy to do and even the most "over powered" all comers lists can be torn apart if the you know what you will be facing beforehand. In tournaments you cannot field lists whos sole aim it is to beat say a GK paladin list, because it won t stand a chance against most other lists.

 

The fact that some armies can field awesome all comers lists in comparison to others makes them very powerful. Not overpowered, because dice rolls and the player behind the army are important factors aswell. In my opinion the discussion if armies are overpowered or not is useless. Each army fields very powerful lists up to a certain points limit. For example Tau can field very hard lists under 1000 points. While others perform differently. Grey knights may seem overly powerful to many, but as you say adjusting to what your regular opponents play in casual games should not be too much of a problem. Anyone who is wiped off the table a couple of times and then complains that the list is unbeatable is doing something wrong. Analyzing lists takes a matter of minutes and once you set up a list that stands a better chance against your foe, your foe has to adjust to your list.

 

Note that all of this discussion only really works for casual gamers who play against the same opponents. Otherwise all you can do is inform yourself about current tournament meta lists and work on how to beat them.

 

I'm sure if everybody suddenly turned up on tournaments with horde armies, all those mech forces and melta spam lists would suddenly be very weak.

 

All in all it's about finding ways to play around the boring internet lists that everyone seems to be playing nowadays and by adapting your play style coping with any list can be much easier.

[DarkGuard]

I don't think there's been many "GK are super over powered " threads on here much recently, maybe on other forums, or maybe the sub forums, but not really here. We had a good thread a while ago when the Codex came out that was talking about some of their better units and how to counter them, think we got some good responses and the point was that they're not invincible, just a strong Codex with lots of options, which is how it should be. They also play differently to most armies playing a midfield game outside of transports really well and people who geared up for anti-mech probably found it hurting them. If anything it's nice to see them playing with hybrid lists, mech was boring.

 

I think, to be honest, the analysis between their Strike squad and our Tactical squad was a bit flawed, no offence. They have better troops, who have better mobility, shooting and combat. But they have less options (outside of combat where they don't excel) and are less flexible, only being able to engage from 24" or less. And they're more expensive. They play differently. Tactical squads are support units, Strike squads not so much, they can carry a game. The thing is everything is in vacuum in your examples. Those Scouts calling down the Terminators might not still be around. And what about Strike squads using Warp Quake? That Tactical squad will get shot at by psycannons if out in the open, or jumped on by Interceptors or a Dreadknight. The truth is Grey Knights can be a tough army to beat, but not impossible.

 

I think the general consensus was that our dedicated CC specialists, like Hammernators, can beat most of their units in CC. We also hold a range advantage, being able to pack more long-range than them. A typical GK net list has 3 psyfleman Dreads, which cuts down on flexibility, and a Vindicare, as long range firepower. As said less flexibility, and that's still only 4 of those units at that range compared to the many Marines can pack, I believe a typical C:SM netlist would have anywhere between 1-3 Riflemen, 1-3 Preds (of various flavours) and multiple Typhoons. Not saying that all lists will do so, but the point is that Marines have more cost efficient long-range buys than Grey Knights, who rely on Razorspam, psyfleman, Ven psyfleman and Storm Ravens for their long-range, only two of them are cost effective, and one of them lends itself to a very specific style of list.

 

And then combat. I can't agree that Grey Knights rule the roost in combat, my Nid army would beg to differ! :) But keeping it PA-based, Blood Angels are still comparable. More attacks, greater mobility to actually pick fights, good durability from their long-range shooting, and unless you plump out for halberds on every squad (which gets expensive real fast) faster. They also don't need psychic powers to be stronger. Black Templars can win thanks to overwhelming numbers and preferred enemy, while still having a potential to be faster. The thing to remember that each basic Grey Knight has one attack, and can only get more if they buy the expensive falchion upgrade. More elite squads have more attacks standard but still no offhand bonus without falchions, and while Brotherhood Banners are good they're expensive and forfeit a combat weapon. IMO Strike squads and Interceptor squads aren't amazing combat units, they can do it OK, but there are better units out there. Their upgrades are also very expensive. This then leave Purifiers, Terminators, Paladins and DCAs as your main combat unit. Purifiers are just as fragile as Strike squads, DCAs are more fragile and need an Inquisitor. And the two Terminator options need Storm Ravens or Land Raiders else they're footslogging.

 

I think Grey Knights are a wonderfully flexible army, both on and off the tabletop. They have a number of good builds, and can affect many different strategies on the tabletop. But overpowered? No, I don't think so. Very strong maybe, but not OP. They still have weaknesses in combat despite army wide force weapons, are still expensive, have problems at range, and a lot of their powers, particular those in combat, can be shut down by a Ld10 hood. A good army, a very good army, but not unbeatable, and not overpowered. If you're having trouble beating them, then just sit back, think about what went wrong, maybe swap a couple of units out, and play your strengths against their weaknesses, because they do have weaknesses.

[DK1]

I agree with both above statements, i was only using it as an example. That same SM friend i mentioned has a crazy build where he takes 6 tac squads with lascannons and 6 razorbacks with lascannons. Surprisingly its very hard to beat and very annoying if the right tools are not brought. He pulled this cheese list out on a tourny and wiped out everyone that didnt start there army in DS. It does come down to dice, and tac. But in all this was to inform the "haters" not the informed.

[TheDevourer]

Haha, his list would be so much fun to play against. Don't know about tournies in the UK (for some reason UK tournies seem to be very different to the ones here in Germany). I find german tournies to be very competetive and only the hardest lists are played. His list wouldn't have a chance in basically all games that i play, but hey each their own and if it works on tournies he goes to, why not?^^

 

I wish I could play against enemies who actually field more than 10 tactical in 1750 pts. Maybe I wouldn t have to field cheesy lists then^^

[DK1]

well the "las" list he takes was because most ppl in our shop brings mech armies. so we didnt know who was bringing what and he took that list and wiped out everyone exp for a Nid army. He took second but that was out of 12 ppl. It worked the one time, its also works on people who really want to bring alot of armor. It just forces you to change lists to counter.

[TheDevourer]

As I said the meta can be ignored in "small" groups. Because you always have to adapt :). It takes alot longer to change meta in bigger groups unless you get enough people to change at the same time :pirate:. We tried taking a mass orcs list down to a tournament once and were fairly successful. But pulling guard with manticores still ruins the day no matter what you play.

[DK1]

Ouch. I always hate running into the Guard armies that spam like 36 lascannons and have an armor line to back it up.

[DarkGuard]

It does come down to dice, and tac. But in all this was to inform the "haters" not the informed.

 

Again, I'm not really aware of many GK haters on here, most armies tend to get a fair appraisal on here. In fact, most of the hating is C:SM hating because of how people view their troops as underpower <_<.

 

Your friend seems like a fun guy, nothing wrong with mixing it up, maybe a little wrong to do so to try and win a tournament, but then I suppose a tournament is open to WAAC.

[DK1]

Well B&C seems to be a more mature group then some other sites. I spent all morning readding "Matt Ward" hate mail and "GK Overpowered" threads so i thought i would share my view.

[DarkGuard]

Fair enough, must have missed them :cuss.

 

I agree though, B+C is one of the best sites out there, and you're more or less guaranteed that people will actually constructively debate a view rather than flame you to oblivion.