Telion Unit Composition

[Jupiter]

[Note: I searched for a thread like this through the search function and somehow didn't find anything that answered my questions... I could have missed something though]

 

So after losing my copy of the codex several months ago, I FINALLY got around to picking up a new one (I had been using the one at my local store for sporadic games/was playing mostly with Dark Eldar). I've been devouring it for the past couple days and came up with a unit of scouts that I really think I would like.

 

I'm looking for feedback from people who have played with/against telion (or more specifically this unit) before I go around converting up a counts-as Telion. Any feedback or corrections to my conclusions would be awesome!

 

 

 

Unit: Scout Snipers, Sgt. Telion, +1 Scout, Heavy Bolter

 

Cost: 135 Points

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, here are the advantages over a normal 5-man scout sniper squad (which I have found to be less-than-useful in 5th edition now that snipers don't hit on 2+...):

 

All weapons have the same range and are all Heavy. Telion's stealth bonus plus the extra regular scout makes the unit a little more survivable for holding objectives when necessary. The heavy bolter synergizes well with Telion's Voice of Experience (when you're not firing the poisoned blast round, of course) that gives you 3 heavy bolter shots at BS 6. His stalker bolter is pinning so he could greatly improve the sniper's efficacy at pinning units.

 

However, even when you don't use his Voice of Experience, you're still getting:

4 Sniper Shots

1 Hellfire or 3 Regular Heavy Bolter Shots

Telion's 2 Stalker Bolter Shots

 

However I have taken after Darkguard's philosophy (I think it's you?) of comparing the cost of the unit relative to other options in the codex. For ~135 Points, you could get a full 10 scout snipers or 8+1 Heavy Bolter. Obviously all the units are scoring, so I'm mainly wondering which configuration would be most effective. It seems a sniper squad any larger than 6 would start to get a little unwieldy and attract too much attention, thus causing them to get isolated early on and chewed up in close combat.

 

 

Thoughts? And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

Thanks!

[Oppressor]

Unit: Scout Snipers, Sgt. Telion, +1 Scout, Heavy Bolter

 

Cost: 135 Points

 

Thoughts? And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

Thanks!

 

Your points cost is off. If you get rid of the sixth scout it would be correct. The idea behind everhthing else you said makes sense and should be fine, jus adjust either your points costs or your stats quotes.

[Kingkaneda]

I always use:

 

10 Scouts(Telion, 8 Snipers, ML)= 200 pts

 

It's a really tough backfield scoring units, wich can ocassionally deal a lot of damage(thx to rending). Most of the time they don't deal that much dmg though. They are good at shooting transports and Monstrous creatures though.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

In my experience, a missile launcher tends to be a much better heavy weapon than the heavy bolter. With Telion, you're using his ballistic skill for the shot, since most things you're shooting at with the squad that require a krak missile won't be affected much by Telion's weapon. With that, you have a fair chance of hitting, better than any other heavy weapon in the codex, all for a minor price, especially if you include the free stealth. Meanwhile, the heavy bolter doesn't really add much, as it's essentially a bit better bolter, even with the additional shot. The missile launcher is simply more versatile, and can do more against the current metagame, i.e. Grey Knight and Necron nastiness.

[DarkGuard]

However I have taken after Darkguard's philosophy (I think it's you?) of comparing the cost of the unit relative to other options in the codex. For ~135 Points, you could get a full 10 scout snipers or 8+1 Heavy Bolter. Obviously all the units are scoring, so I'm mainly wondering which configuration would be most effective. It seems a sniper squad any larger than 6 would start to get a little unwieldy and attract too much attention, thus causing them to get isolated early on and chewed up in close combat.

 

Was that me? I just say things and somehow people make sense out of the nonsense that spews out :unsure:

 

But I think that's fair enough, although it's less cost, but more abilities other units for that cost, and what more they could or might not be able to do if you drop points lose points etc.

 

For example, I've never been a fan of 5 man Scout sniper squads. Sure with camo cloaks they can be really survivable, but they do nothing else to help the army apart from the odd pinning check.

 

Add Telion for 35pts however (drop the cloaks), and you've got more firepower and the ability to knock out enemy special models. Add a missile launcher, and you've got a very accurate ML as well in your backfield troop unit. Not bad for 135pts, more accurate anti-tank firepower than a las/plas Razorback which is 30pts more, and nearly as survivable (though not quite, as small arms can kill them etc). Both are good options depending on the list. Footslogging or hybrid list then Telion, mech then I'd go for the Razorback.

 

Now your unit is fine, apart from the total points cost as Oppressor pointed out. Small tip, beyond Veteran squads, no Space Marine unit will have numbers adding up to 5 or 0 if you don't take 5 or 10 of them. I sometimes wonder whether it was intentional to make people like me only take 5 or 10 man squads of them so I won't have a squad costing 134pts :P.

 

Anyway, I prefer a missile launcher in a Telion unit as it gains more from Telion's ability, but then when using Telion's ability you're not using his other one to pick out enemy squad leaders and special weapons, so the heavy bolter is just as valid. And although small they're survivable in cover, don't be afraid to make them go to ground if need be, they won't do lots of damage either.

 

All in all, a unit I've enjoyed using, provided I have the points.

[Luis_CC]

I always use:

 

10 Scouts(Telion, 8 Snipers, ML)= 200 pts

 

It's a really tough backfield scoring units, wich can ocassionally deal a lot of damage(thx to rending). Most of the time they don't deal that much dmg though. They are good at shooting transports and Monstrous creatures though.

 

I also include that unit.

They also benefit from a larger range of shooting that allows you to be able to shoot different units each turn, and some of them won´t return fire because of the distance or because they will have not to move if they choose to fire.

Telion´s skill will be more effective if you incluide a ML, especially when firing T4 units (for example, micetic spores) or low armour (bye bye Land Speeder).

Also, the infiltrate USR is complemented by explore USR, which lets you to place scouts in excellent shooting places, treathening valuable IC (sanguinary priest) or vehicules.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I don't like putting Telion into a full, ten-man squad IF you are the combat squadding type. You'll lose Stealth on the guys being split off. Its not a deal breaker by any means -- as has been mentioned, he rocks that missile launcher -- but just a note to keep in mind.

[Sons of the Forge]

I now always run a 10 man sniper unit with the ML and Telion added to the mix. I have had greater success with this unit then my old tactical squads which I now just never run. My advice is at the very least swap the heavy bolter for the ML. An if you get the time and money make the unit 10 strong.

[MagicMan]

Its worth having a full 10 man squad with Telion.

 

 

Since Telion gives all the members of his squad stealth for free (a camo-cloak for free, as long as you don't combat squad the unit) by putting him in a ten man unit you save 30 points!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Its worth having a full 10 man squad with Telion.

 

 

Since Telion gives all the members of his squad stealth for free (a camo-cloak for free, as long as you don't combat squad the unit) by putting him in a ten man unit you save 30 points!

 

Until you combat squad the unit, at which point only the four scouts with Telion gain Stealth. The other five don't get it because they are no longer part of Telion's unit.

[Kingkaneda]

Yeah so in most cases it is better to keep the 10 men in 1 unit. But you have the tactical flexibility to combat squad. Depends on what army your facing. In general my opponents dont like shooting at my scouts, since the 2 ++ save(bolster ruins+stealth) is too much to get through. 5 Are probably enough for scoring purposes, but I like to increase the chance of pinning tough units.

[DarkGuard]

Actually if I take a 10 man squad I spend another 65pts. That 30pts save for me doesn't mean much. I've had as little success with 10 man sniper squads as 5 man. But a 5 man squad with ML and Telion costs 135pts, does some damage and is a good objective holder.

 

So I can understand that idea, that Telion in a 10 man squad only costs 20pts if you took camo cloaks, and therefore costs 35pts in a 5 man squad. But in the end the 5 man squad is still cheaper and does what I want it to do fine. :P

[McSnow]

The operational role for any Sniper squad with Telion is not to deal damage but to cause pinning tests, take out anything below AV12 with his BS5 Krak missile and to pick out ICs in units (although I've never seen this used effectively. Ever).

I don't believe that having an extra 5 snipers improves any of those roles enough to warrant the points cost.

[greatcrusade08]

The operational role for any Sniper squad with Telion is not to deal damage but to cause pinning tests, take out anything below AV12 with his BS5 Krak missile and to pick out ICs in units (although I've never seen this used effectively. Ever).

I don't believe that having an extra 5 snipers improves any of those roles enough to warrant the points cost.

 

actually given the large numbers of fearless or high Ld opponents.. trying to cause pinning tests isnt a viable tactic IMO.

snipers cause a small number of wounds, but the chances of rending and the small chances of pinning make them excellent at taking on heavy infantry, MEQ, TEQ and the like

where causing one or two casualties actually makes a difference.

they are also reasonably effective at taking on rhino mech at ten man, the extra few shots usually means a rend or two, combined with Telions BS6 (not 5) krak missile isnt too bad.

 

as for picking out ICs, its a waste IMO, perhaps if the Ic had a poor armour save (or on his last wound) id go for it, but multiple wounds means your not causing any real observable damage.

taking out unit leaders and special/heavy weapons does have an immediate effect and with a lack of invulnerable saves on these targets the chances of killing them with a telion rend is pretty good.

 

i can see why people take 5 with telion, but given youve already paid 135 points i dont have any qualms about spending another 65 points for 5 more guys.. you cant get infantry that cheap anywhere esle in the dex

[Mysticaria]

The operational role for any Sniper squad with Telion is not to deal damage but to cause pinning tests, take out anything below AV12 with his BS5 Krak missile and to pick out ICs in units (although I've never seen this used effectively. Ever).

I don't believe that having an extra 5 snipers improves any of those roles enough to warrant the points cost.

It's actually a BS6 krak missile.

 

Don't forget... they also score and dodge bullets. The extra five guys doesn't actually increase the damage output very much, since as you say the BS6 krak missile is what really does it... but they do add some wounds to the unit which can increase it's ability to score. Also, they add a little ability to shoot at MCs or light transports since now instead of 2 sniper hits, you are looking at 4-5 sniper hits. With the missile, you should be putting 3 saves a turn onto an MC.

 

-Myst

[Grey Mage]

Space Marine Scouts are to provide light fire support and take down monstrous creatures at range- the former is something that most marine units can do in one way or another, but the latter is something the codex really can struggle with. In any area where MCs are likely to be seen- and with recent codices its more and more likely- I wouldnt field a large force without a squad of sniper scouts.

[DarkGuard]

I'd disagree with that Grey Mage. The Marine Codex has plenty of ways to bring down MCs. Mass plasma can be procured easily enough through Tactical squads and Command squads. Sternguard squads can do mass plasma plus their hellfire rounds are deadly to MCs, and they perform that role better than Scouts. And of course the ever ubiquitous krak missile spam is especially deadly to many MCs, as are melta when you're not shooting them at tanks.

 

If you ask a Nid player what they're MCs fear the most from C:SM, I am 99% certain the answer wouldn't be sniper Scouts, but rather krak missiles, Sternguard, plasma all ranking ahead of them.

 

Of course there are different MCs from different Codices, but for the most part I feel Space Marine anti-tank is sufficient to MCs, especially as the Codex that consistently fields the most MCs have no tanks.

[whitey161]

I use telion with 5-8 scouts (i owuld probably take 10 if i had the models). He is pretty much the first thing i put into a 1200+ point army. The stealth is good and you can put them in cover with infiltrate first turn but its his ability to pick out individual models that does it for me.

 

Every game this dude rends heavy and special weapons guys into the ground. Killing that guy with the missile launcher can give you a clear run with a transport or killing the guy with a melta gun. in my case its usually against orks so taking ouwnds off the nobs is good, have even scored two wounds and killed the nob a couple of times.

 

TBH he is possibly my favourite thing in the C:SM codex!!!