The 'Why do you never see ________ being used' thread

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I am wanting to start this thread as, if nothing else, a platform for me (all the rest of you, Brothers) to ask all of the dumb questions that bombard my brain on a daily basis. Right now I have a couple questions that I want answered who's answers will not be found in the Codex. Perhaps they are more personal preferences, but I want to hear them all the same. I like to pool many responses together, and make my decision out of them before taking it to the table.

 

Question one: Why do you never see Whirlwinds being used in Space Wolf armies??

I am assuming it's the front 11 armor that scares most away, am I wrong??

 

Question two: Why do you never see Rune Priest's with Fury of the Wolf Spirits psychic abilities??

I though 5 12" shots (2 with AP 2) would be decent, although nothing as good as Living Lightning, I know.

 

Give me your answers and comments Brothers, then please leave your inquiries if you have any!!

 

End of Line

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I am wanting to start this thread as, if nothing else, a platform for me (all the rest of you, Brothers) to ask all of the dumb questions that bombard my brain on a daily basis. Right now I have a couple questions that I want answered who's answers will not be found in the Codex. Perhaps they are more personal preferences, but I want to hear them all the same. I like to pool many responses together, and make my decision out of them before taking it to the table.

 

Question one: Why do you never see Whirlwinds being used in Space Wolf armies??

I am assuming it's the front 11 armor that scares most away, am I wrong??

 

Question two: Why do you never see Rune Priest's with Fury of the Wolf Spirits psychic abilities??

I though 5 12" shots (2 with AP 2) would be decent, although nothing as good as Living Lightning, I know.

 

Give me your answers and comments Brothers, then please leave your inquiries if you have any!!

 

End of Line

 

Excellent idea, this should be quite useful. Have you considered accumulating all questions and answers in the first post?

 

1. I wouldn't say it's the front armor 11. With Whirlwinds, they have indirect fire, so you'll normally have them hidden somewhere where they can't be seen, much like the Tau Crisis Suits. The issue more tends to be that there are simply much better choices. After all, why use a S5 AP4 Large Blast, when you can have a unit of Long Fangs churning out missile, plasma, and las shots by the dozen. Or Vindicators, which can move up with your Rhinos using the AV 13 armor, and fire the Demolisher at something. You will see them used as a fun unit, and indeed, I do that a fair bit, but in tournaments, they tend to be less valued than other units.

 

2. Most people tend to take one shooting and one buff power, so Living Lightning, or Jaws in my case, takes up one slot, while Storm Caller or similar takes up the other. Wolf Spirits tends to be very short ranged, and isn't great at popping transports or picking out nasty models, which is what you're going to be more focused on. After all, we have the amazing Grey Hunters for anti-infantry duties, who can deal with a fair number of threats.

[Khine]

I am wanting to start this thread as, if nothing else, a platform for me (all the rest of you, Brothers) to ask all of the dumb questions that bombard my brain on a daily basis. Right now I have a couple questions that I want answered who's answers will not be found in the Codex. Perhaps they are more personal preferences, but I want to hear them all the same. I like to pool many responses together, and make my decision out of them before taking it to the table.

 

Question one: Why do you never see Whirlwinds being used in Space Wolf armies??

I am assuming it's the front 11 armor that scares most away, am I wrong??

 

Question two: Why do you never see Rune Priest's with Fury of the Wolf Spirits psychic abilities??

I though 5 12" shots (2 with AP 2) would be decent, although nothing as good as Living Lightning, I know.

 

Give me your answers and comments Brothers, then please leave your inquiries if you have any!!

 

End of Line

 

 

2. Most people tend to take one shooting and one buff power, so Living Lightning, or Jaws in my case, takes up one slot, while Storm Caller or similar takes up the other. Wolf Spirits tends to be very short ranged, and isn't great at popping transports or picking out nasty models, which is what you're going to be more focused on. After all, we have the amazing Grey Hunters for anti-infantry duties, who can deal with a fair number of threats.

 

 

Although i would generally agree with this, there are times where i find Fury of the wolf spirits to be useful. for example. Greyhunter pack with a runepriest attached going up against a unit of terminators. Those Ap2 attacks are going to have a far more likely chance of removing some models than say LL or Jaws. Since most termis have I4, making them take a 5+ inv instead is a bit less risky. plus the 3x Ap- attacks go towards weight of fire as well.

 

Own question.

 

Can an independent characters with a jump pack who has joined a squad opt to jump in a rhino with the squad?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Can an independent characters with a jump pack who has joined a squad opt to jump in a rhino with the squad?

 

No. The rules specifically state that models with jump packs may not enter transports. Unless you're a Stormraven, but those break all the rules anyway. Also, if it stated units, not models, it would mean the entire unit can't jump in.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I am wondering if adding each Q and A to the OP would make a HUGE mess, or make a symphonic harmony. Either way, thanks for the support guys!!

 

Ignis beat me to it,but yes, not Jumpers in the rhinos for you!! :) ..or anybody for that matter...

 

I love me some Living Lightning, as we all do, it's by far our best Psychic shooting attack. But like Khine mentioned, I often wonder if using it in a very aggressive unit build could/would work well against certain unit types. Of course then, we are just making lists to specifically combat certain armies, as opposed to building an all comers list (which is by far more my style...).

 

End of Line

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'd go for it. We could potentially get a little FAQ going. And littlbitz, I see you lurking there. Think sticky things for the future. :)

[Khine]

Can an independent characters with a jump pack who has joined a squad opt to jump in a rhino with the squad?

 

No. The rules specifically state that models with jump packs may not enter transports. Unless you're a Stormraven, but those break all the rules anyway. Also, if it stated units, not models, it would mean the entire unit can't jump in.

 

=x i believe i have cheated then once... at a pre-tourney thing ... oh well it was a dark angel player. -repeats the phrase of failings (even though he has forgotten it)- At least i know now :3

[Vantius]

How is everyone playing murderous hurricane? Since it says it affects a unit regardless of hitting, is anyone taking advantage of this and targeting units that are well outside the 18" range (say... all the way across the board)? I would think this would be legal, but VERY cheesy.

 

Please weigh in on this.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I would say no, from both a RAW and RAI standpoint. It states at the beginning of the rules that it is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". That qualifies the following statements to only occur within 18". Furthermore, templates and Jaws provide a precedent for this, in that though they auto-hit, they still must remain within their range.

[Wolfsbane]

1. Has anyone played around with either a Wolf Priest or WGBL with Saga of the Hunter with some Scouts? Using the BEL ability and having a prefered enemy/fearless unit seems rather amazing. Especially since you can attach a Wolf Guard as well. Just a thought that I really would like to play around with unit my idea is proven horrible.

 

2. Njal, his Lord of Tempest ability seems amazing. Is there a reason why he doesn't show up in a lot of larger lists?

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

1. I am just now getting into using scouts, so I have no experience or expertise to share with you Wolfsbane. But I will tell you that I think that idea sounds like great fun.

 

2. I use him at 2K and up. But only in my LoganWing, which is NOT a competitive army, but is the most fun I've had pushing plastic around and rolling dice!!

 

End of Line

[Vantius]

I would say no, from both a RAW and RAI standpoint. It states at the beginning of the rules that it is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". That qualifies the following statements to only occur within 18". Furthermore, templates and Jaws provide a precedent for this, in that though they auto-hit, they still must remain within their range.

 

Yes but in the FAQ it clearly states that it does not need to hit in order for it to effect the targeted unit. And we are not discussing how Jaws works. Besides, Jaws say that whatever touches the line is effected. In the case of Murderous Hurricane, it says they are affected whether the unit is hit or not.

 

So, is this a case of having to roll to hit to use Murderous Hurricane (and thus not an issue of range)? Has anyone played, or seen it played differently?

 

1. Has anyone played around with either a Wolf Priest or WGBL with Saga of the Hunter with some Scouts? Using the BEL ability and having a prefered enemy/fearless unit seems rather amazing. Especially since you can attach a Wolf Guard as well. Just a thought that I really would like to play around with unit my idea is proven horrible.

 

2. Njal, his Lord of Tempest ability seems amazing. Is there a reason why he doesn't show up in a lot of larger lists?

 

2. I believe there is now an issue with using his tempest ability while embarked in a vehicle.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If you're talking about competitive play, a list must be able to deal with diverse foes, Mech being one of them.

A Whirlwind basically sits around waiting for enemy transports to be opened, which isn't a good thing.

 

Its equivalent, the Dakka Pred - Auto Bolter, has an h2 s7 gun, and 2 h3 s5 guns, so is able to do something to Rhinos [mainly with the auto cannon] and can do quite a bit to flimsy AV, such as Deldar Raiders, Tau Piranhas, and even Landspeeders.

The WW will do one wound to a Monster, where the Dakka Pred can do 8.

 

And the Pred has AV13. Whilst being able to indirect fire is a plus, presenting another AV13 hull is also a plus.

 

So that is why the WW doesn't get much airtime around those who play in tournaments. It doesn't mean it isn't decent, but when you might play against Guard with Chimeras covering the horizon, a WW just isn't going to cut it.

 

Likewise with the shooting spell that isn't LL. LL allows you massive range and can hurt AV, and isn't shabby against infantry, whereas Fury is more specific. And it assumes those Termies don't have SS, or at least cover, etc.

 

Most talk is about competitive play. This is what the context of online discussions are about. Interestingly, this isn't how most games are played. So people simply need to preface their gaming wants and it will defuse many a "you're doin' it wrong!" retorts. ;)

 

:P

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

1. Has anyone played around with either a Wolf Priest or WGBL with Saga of the Hunter with some Scouts? Using the BEL ability and having a prefered enemy/fearless unit seems rather amazing. Especially since you can attach a Wolf Guard as well. Just a thought that I really would like to play around with unit my idea is proven horrible.

 

2. Njal, his Lord of Tempest ability seems amazing. Is there a reason why he doesn't show up in a lot of larger lists?

 

1. My issue with attaching a Priest or Wolf Guard is that they just dint add enough to the unit to mak it so it won't die instantly. Normally, I'll just run five scouts with a melta and Melta bombs, and have them run rampant on the back field. Also, they're designed, at least in my army, to kill tanks and disrupt heavy weapons, so the wolf priest and guard are unnecessary given the profusion of melta items.

 

2. For many, he's way too expensive for a two wound model that only does a little more than a rune priest. From testing, the Lord of Tempest thing isn't that good. The effects tend to bot roll aroun when you need/want them, and manyof then can be done by a standard rune priest. They can still work inside a rhino, though, if I remember correctly, as they do not require line of sight.

[Dewi Sant]

Njal is very good, and against Psyker heavy armies his 3+ staff is fantastic. However, his lack of eternal warrior and because you can't hide him in vehicles due him needing LOS means you have to really protect him. His LOTT ability only works within 24'' of the enemy and as the turns progress his better abilities only work with in 18-12''. You have to give him lots of support/flank protection and make sure no one manages to bash him over the head with a power fist.

 

If you can manage that he works like a dream. I pod him in with 2 GH packs for support and as the enemy advance he pulls back.

[Niiai]

Whirldwinds are good. It is only that the meta tends to lead towards mech and very little units. And they are better vs non marine armies, but with the imperial side being so good now you tend to se less and less armies with infantery in them. Very few play tyranids, eldar has the flying sircus, dark eldar msu transport spam. I supose the moast likly candidate would be orks but even them usualy take a list with a lott of rollers in them. In short, the reason you se so little whirldwinds is the streamlined mech enviorment that the 5th edition rules and codexes are.

[thelordcal]

I'm curious why we don't see more dreadnought builds running in our lists. Is it because other choices are just vastly superior?

 

What about bikes? I really dig the models not to mention the idea of space wolves hacking from the back of motorcycles! But do they have any function game wise? I've been tempted to do an army based solely around bikes + land speeders and seeing how far it'll take me... Maybe once 6th edition launches.. if the rumors are true anyway.

[Wulfebane]

I'm curious why we don't see more dreadnought builds running in our lists. Is it because wher choices are just vastly superior?

 

What about bikes? I really dig the models not to mention the idea of space wolves hacking from the back of motorcycles! But do they have any function game wise? I've been tempted to do an army based solely around bikes + land speeders and seeing how far it'll take me... Maybe once 6th edition launches.. if the rumors are true anyway.

 

Because they take up a valuable Elite slot, that we covet for our Wolf Guard which has come close to manditory for our GH packs, and on occasion, Scouts and Lone Wolves (and iron priestslolwut?). Vanilla marines don't have as much to contend those Elite slots. Their scouts are troops and they seldom take terminators in bulk (from my perspective).

 

The bikes are decent, and a lot of people DO use them, to great effect. Find littlebitz' article on how he goes about fielding them. The issue is that again, we have limited Fast Attack slots, which would have to be shared with your proposed land speeders. Admittedly, you can field far more bikes than you could twc, which is fast becoming the new trend, but they still suffer from BC stats and do not get true T5, unlike twc, and are in essence the only melee-oriented unit that cannot take MotW (sans fen wolves). Also, their Headstrong rule almost always requires a WG or IC to keep them in check. Once it's all laid out like that, its just far too many cons to bring them regularly (at least in tourney lists) imo.

[Blackmane]

I am rather fond of using specialist units. As a result I dont have a lot of infantry(around 35) and therefore I often use whirlwinds as crowd control against critter armies.

Concerning the murderous hurricane(or the partisan nails as I renamed them): they are way better than Jaws which everybody seemed to praise at first. My first Rune priest is always equipped with murderous and lightning. But the ghost wolves are a nice surprise for armies like DW who become a little to familiar the the lack of killpower in the nails and the lightning.

I've messed around with the idea of bikes for 2 reasons over twc: they are fast AND shooty. And fewer have tried to build dedicated SW biker models. Mine will take a short war to complete as I do things like exchanging the grips for leather bound ones etc.

Cheers

-Martin

[eyeslikethunder]

2. For many, he's way too expensive for a two wound model that only does a little more than a rune priest. From testing, the Lord of Tempest thing isn't that good. The effects tend to bot roll aroun when you need/want them, and manyof then can be done by a standard rune priest. They can still work inside a rhino, though, if I remember correctly, as they do not require line of sight.

 

Only enemy models in njal's line of sight can be affected

So tempest powers do require line of sight so he has taken another hit with the nerf hammer after the first one about some his powers not working if he goes second

[Khine]

Question about the whole Njal in transport not counting as LoS. If he is in a rhino and he uses a shooting attack, does that give him los? since he is at one of the two fire points.

[Wulfebane]

I have a dumb question...

If you give a drop pod to a pack of GH, and then deploy the drop pod empty, when do you deploy the GH pack? During deployment? From reserves? I've never done it or seen it done, but I'm about to try it today.

[Matt D]

I have a dumb question...

If you give a drop pod to a pack of GH, and then deploy the drop pod empty, when do you deploy the GH pack? During deployment? From reserves? I've never done it or seen it done, but I'm about to try it today.

you can deploy them either way. it would be like having an empty razorback for your longfangs. deploy them separately if you wish.

[MalachiOfRuss]

Question about the whole Njal in transport not counting as LoS. If he is in a rhino and he uses a shooting attack, does that give him los? since he is at one of the two fire points.

It gives him LoS only for the shooting attack, not for any other ability that requires it.

[Valerian]

I have a dumb question...

If you give a drop pod to a pack of GH, and then deploy the drop pod empty, when do you deploy the GH pack? During deployment? From reserves? I've never done it or seen it done, but I'm about to try it today.

you can deploy them either way. it would be like having an empty razorback for your longfangs. deploy them separately if you wish.

 

Correct. The Hunters can be deployed on the table, as usual, or placed in Reserves and walk on from the table edge when you roll the Reserve roll for them. Meanwhile, the Pod can come in Turn1, or in a later turn upon successful Reserve Roll, if you have multiple Pods (just follow the Drop Pod Assault rules-it's the same regardless of whether they are loaded or empty).

 

Valerian