Long range Rhino bunkers

[DarkGuard]

OK then, Rhino bunkers. A very large part of Marine warfare it seems, stick a unit in a Rhino, and you can fire two guys out the top hatch, subject to restrictions. So not only does your unit get more mobility and protection while the Rhino, and it can fire at units while in the Rhino. Hardly seems fair but that's not what we're talking about :P.

 

Now, these are used a lot. I myself can be a bit partial to the multi-melta midfield bunkers, and have often performed a drive by with my flamers. And to be honest, that's entirely understandable. In midfield and beyond you're more likely to have your unit shot at if it disembarks, so if it can damage an enemy unit without having to disembark, that's a huge bonus.

 

 

However, something that's been cropping up a lot recently is the following: "Stick a lascannon on that unit, give them a Rhino, stick them in it". Now I can't understand that point of view. I can understand that the unit can't get shot at, but yet can shoot back, but I can't understand it for other reasons, which I will elaborate on:

 

1. Ablative bodies: you can protect the unit against fire while in a Rhino. However, that's why we have ablative bodies. You're unit gets shot, you put a wound on a boltgun guy, if he dies no biggy. So you're able to protect your heavy weapons with extra bodies. Of course, those bodies could die fast, especially to low AP weapons, which brings us to...
    
   
2. Cover: infantry units in the open, shouldn't be in the open. They should be in cover. Now in cover you've got a 4++ against those nasty low AP weapons, meaning your opponent needs to shoot them a bit more. And if you happen to have a Techmarine about, you've got a 3++. Or in the case of Blood Angels, you could stick a Priest nearby and give them FnP. Cover makes infantry units pretty durable, and there are ways to make them more durable. Cover also gives...
    
   
3. Better LoS: vehicles can't deploy above ground floor (unless they're walkers). So with your heavy weapons in Rhinos you're looking for fire lane control, preventing the opponent from freely coming down a particular corridor. This is good, but then if they ignore that lane you do nothing all game or redeploy, which in turn wastes some shooting. Remember, you only have limited shots. Units in cover, particularly ruins, can normally deploy higher up, giving them a more commanding view of the battlefield, letting them control multiple firelanes at once. Rhinos need to be on a hill to do this, which means they're often out of cover, easy LoS, which leads us to...
    
   
4. Rhino fragility: lets face it, Rhinos don't have the best armour. There's a reason why Rifleman got popular, because Rhino armour isn't great. Many dedicated anti-tank units can easily slice through its armour at range, killing your tank, getting a KP, pinning the unit inside killing some of the models, making them run etc. And if they're fine after losing the Rhino they may have to redeploy, although I guess they have new cover via the dead Rhino (now dangerous and need to move into it) or crater (no moving into it, but chance to be hurt in explosion). And that's if the vehicle blows up, because otherwise...
    
   
5. Stun-lock: this is the kicker for me, why heavy weapon infantry don't belong in Rhinos. Everyone loves Typhoons, Dreads, Preds. All good long-range platforms. Cheap as well, immune to small arms. But there is one complaint, stun lock. But for them, it can also be shaken lock. Basically, all the enemy has to do is get a glancing hit and they've probably stopped them firing next turn, that's good enough. No such luck against infantry though, if you wound that one guy he may survive the hit, and if he doesn't it was probably a bolter, the other 9 guys don't care, and the heavy weapon is still firing. You often have to wipe the entire unit out, or at least force enough wounds onto them to make the heavy weapons take armour saves, which is hard to do with ablative wounds. Now, put them in a Rhino, and yeah, they can't be shot at. But all someone has to do is glance the Rhino, stun or shake it, and the unit isn't shooting, no matter what it does. Can't shoot out the top hatch, can't get out and shoot, and this could happen all game. I'm pretty sure you take heavy weapons teams to avoid those results, the weakness of Preds, not to pretend to be one.
   

 

Of course, there are good points to having a transport with a heavy weapon team. Repositioning, protection from scary combat units, or you can use it separately as a shield wall, backup to other unit's transports. However, all these have bad points, if you're repositioning then you likely screwed up deployment (unless it was DoW, sympathies there). If a scary combat unit is through to your backline there's a chance your midfield is now non-existent. Shield wall is cool, but free kill point? Backup option is nice, but not always needed.

 

However, I'm assuming Rhino there. There is one unit that can do all that, and contribute better. The Razorback. Even a heavy bolter one. It allows you to reposition the unit if need be, or preserve it (may have to wait for a few deaths here, but we're talking end of game stuff). Can act as backup to smaller units or depleted ones, help with shield walls. And, when not doing these obscure tasks, it has its own heavy weapon to shoot at the enemy with. So that Dev squad with 4 missile launchers just brought an extra lascannon to the game, that can move and fire! That plasma cannon Sternguard unit get you an extra heavy bolter. Extra heavy weapons are good, especially on a mobile chassis.

 

But here's the thing, often we start looking at 200pts+ for a Dev unit and a Razorback with heavy, why go for that when we could have two Typhoons, or two combi-preds? Case in point, my 5 man quad missile launcher Dev squad and las/plas Razorback costs 225pts, for 15pts more I could have two combi-preds. Better survivability, more lascannons, lack of missile launcers. So why do that?

 

The reason? Because I've come to believe that a blend of infantry heavy weapons and vehicle heavy weapons is a good thing. Both have their ups and downs, their strengths and their faults. Yes Preds are tough, but one shot can still potentially take them out. That won't happen with Devs unless it's a Vindicator. Preds also get more heavy weapons for cheap, but can't deploy with better firelanes. And they can be stun locked, Devs can't. And Preds are no more mobile than heavy weapon squads when firing to full effect. Of course Typhoons and Dreads are, but again same weaknesses, and not as tough. But then heavy weapon squads can be taken out by small arms, fail morale tests, can't move and fire, and rely on cover, and can be more expensive.

 

 

Therefore, a healthy blend of both is nice. Having that Dev squad or Sternguard squad not in a Rhino means you have a heavy weapons team that can't be stun-locked. Having some Typhoons or a Rifleman means you've got cheaper and more mobile heavy weapons able to reposition for better shots at side armour etc. Both cover each other's weaknesses and therefore make them stronger. Of course, you then have the point where your opponent has easy targets for his anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons, which mech and footslogging mitigate, but that's the risk of hybrid. I certainly think it's worth it.

 

So I guess my point is, don't put a double lascannon unit in a Rhino, when you've got room for combi-preds. Either deploy them in cover, or take the cheaper combi-pred.

 

EDIT: for better presentation.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

don't you have to attach a Tech marine to make it a proper rhino bunker? ;)

[greatcrusade08]

don't you have to attach a Tech marine to make it a proper rhino bunker? ;)

 

you couldnt do that with a tac squad, they need ten men for the heavy weapn allowance..

also any more points spent only worsens thier use IMO.

 

i think DG has hit the nail on its preverbial head here.. rhinos as bunkers is a silly silly idea.

infact id gi as far to say that anti-tank weaponry doesnt belong on troops choices like tac marines and thier ilk (even sterngaurd)..

putting dev marines in a rhino isnt a hot idea either for that matter, hugging cover would be far more sensible IMO

[Azerick]

Still overall i see your point but situationally i can see a point of doing it that way. Most prominent one is with dark eldar and thier untits that throw out massive amounts of poisoned shots that bounce of anything with armor but have a good chance to kill thinks with a toughness.

[Paulochromis]

... that long-range anti-tank weaponry doesnt belong on troops choices like tac marines and thier ilk (even sterngaurd)..

I think the added prefix is required.

you run chaos gc08, so you know that melta-hunters is a valid option for them (and all the SW players out there).

[greatcrusade08]

... that long-range anti-tank weaponry doesnt belong on troops choices like tac marines and thier ilk (even sterngaurd)..

I think the added prefix is required.

you run chaos gc08, so you know that melta-hunters is a valid option for them (and all the SW players out there).

 

your not wrong, although dual melta on troops for the above mentioned armies opens up new posibilities and i wouldnt apply the same rules for them as i would C:SM/BA/DA equivalents

basically they become great support units, dual meltas increases thier chances of destroying armour should it arise, but i usually include a unit should i come up against pallies or nob bikers etc.. some good pre assault shooting can tip the balance before my lord and possessed have at them.

ridding the board of a dread at close range is never a bad thing either, since chaos HQs for the most part dont like vehicles.

 

but again should you have dedicated anti-vehcile units like oblits, long fangs etc, there should be little actual 'need' for anti-tank weapons on infantry, let them do what they are good at

[DarkGuard]

Still overall i see your point but situationally i can see a point of doing it that way. Most prominent one is with dark eldar and thier untits that throw out massive amounts of poisoned shots that bounce of anything with armor but have a good chance to kill thinks with a toughness.

 

On the flip side they have a ton of dark lances that can easily destroy or at least stun lock your Rhino bunkers, so it's either or.

 

Like I've said I can see why people would do it, I just don't see where the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, if you slap Sternguard with lascannons in a Rhino you're looking at a minimum of 190pts. Why not get a combi-pred for 120pts? Better armour, another gun, can move and shoot with a weapon if needed. And 70pts spare on something else, which is almost a Typhoon, or half a combi-pred. If you've got infantry with heavy weapons you should play to their strengths, ie. not being stunned, rather than trying to make them vehicles.

 

i think DG has hit the nail on its preverbial head here.. rhinos as bunkers is a silly silly idea.

infact id gi as far to say that anti-tank weaponry doesnt belong on troops choices like tac marines and thier ilk (even sterngaurd)..

putting dev marines in a rhino isnt a hot idea either for that matter, hugging cover would be far more sensible IMO

 

Thanks mate, I was expecting to be one of those crazy end of world fanatics "the sky is falling" sort of stuff, glad to know others think alike :).

 

I wouldn't go as far to say as all Rhino bunkers are bad. I still think there's some credence to the melta bunker, or rather midfield bunker. When I push my Troops into midfield I'd prefer not to disembark them if needed, and they may want to stay there for a while. However, one shouldn't be too worried to forsake a midfield bunker and push their Tactical squads forward more aggressively, getting them out if needed. As you've said many times though it's only one melta shot per unit for over 200pts, not too great, especially as you can get said same melta shot for 50pts elsewhere!

 

I do think that it also depends on situation with forward units, if you're shooting at a tank and can afford to only move 6" it can be a good idea to stay in the Rhino. Say you're firing at a Land Raider, I'd prefer not to open myself up to a Terminator charge, I'd rather make them work to get my unit out of the Rhino. Of course that thinking saw me be a fraction of an inch out of melta range in one of my last games...

 

Agree with Sternguard, IMO Sternguard should be pushing forward with their lovely boltguns, multitude of combi weapons and perhaps a heavy flamer or two. Frontline specialists. But for points conscious people I can understand the Sternguard Dev squad, but like Dev squads they should take advantage of being infantry and deploy in cover, not in a Rhino.

 

There's some merit for long-range weapons on Tactical squads. I tend to use a combi-plasma/plasma gun/lascannon unit with las/plas Razorback in my DoubleGuard lists, as I don't have space for my preferred objective camper, Telion snipers. The ability to be able to combat squad missile launchers and lascannons onto objectives is also handy to have.

[minigun762]

i think DG has hit the nail on its preverbial head here.. rhinos as bunkers is a silly silly idea.

 

For loyalists it is, however Chaos can get a little more mileage out of it because we don't have access to a razorbacks. That said, our heavy slots are filled with oblits so we rarely have room for havocs so we are limited to using our troop choices (or possibly chosen) and most of our troop choices work better within 24", often within 12". I think its most viable with one of the following

10 CSM, plasma gun, autocannon for S7 goodness

5 plague marines, 2 plasma guns

5 noise marines, blastmaster for lobbing S8 cupcakes at range

 

With the last choice, I like the idea of adding the havoc launcher to the rhino, for another blast weapon.

[spartan249]

I think a big part of the "Lascannon in a rhino" thing is that it's very affordable on tactical squads, and giving them a weapon with improved statistics to use in a role that they're already expected to fill isn't a bad idea in my book. In keeping with the idea of tactical squad, the lascannon and the selection of special weapon gives the tactical squad the ability to fulfill different POUs when it is required of them. Besides, I'm never one to pass up a lascannon when I have the opportunity to take one for relatively little cost.

 

Besides, it seems everyone and their kid brothers are loading up on tactical squads in rhinos. Allowing them various different ways to apply themselves in game is a move in the right direction to take. What I can't understand is the shorter ranged tactical squad loadouts that force them to engage enemy targets at closer ranges, thus handicap the unit in situations where they must play more patiently.

[DarkGuard]

But then if you pay points for your lascannon wouldn't you want to fire it as much as you could? Putting that unit in a Rhino makes it less likely due to stunlock.

 

I can agree with short ranged Tacticals, most of their guns are short ranged, especially if they move, but this neither the time nor place to comment on various Tactical squad loadouts, this is for Rhino bunkers. (But there will be a time and place for Tactical squad loadouts discussion, just give me a couple of weeks :jaw:).

[spartan249]

I don't know about others, but I've stopped thinking in terms of "must do everything I pay points for every turn". I see it instead as an investment into a unit's abilities. Sometimes, the investment doesn't pay off because of any number of reasons (bad dice luck, smoking luck from the opponent, outmaneuvered by opponent, etc). What matters to me is that any and all of my units have the means of handling what situations may come their way. It doesn't matter to me how many times a single unit uses an upgrade I paid for. If the unit has the equipment it needs to fulfill the requirements of the moment, then that is enough to me.

 

That being said, I never use rhinos ever, so this is solely based on my experiences fighting against rhino wielding enemies. I would instead go with razorbacks, as I think they add much more to the army then a rhino ever will.

[Grey Mage]

The stunlock is the killer for me. I just cant make that work in my head- why wouldnt they just hit it with a couple small plinky shots and remove your ability to hurt them for the turn? *shakes head*

[Mysticaria]

The stunlock is the killer for me. I just cant make that work in my head- why wouldnt they just hit it with a couple small plinky shots and remove your ability to hurt them for the turn? *shakes head*

If they are shooting at the rhino, they aren't killing the killy stuff. If you are operating at range, they aren't stun-locking you with anything less than anti-tank fire... which would stun-lock a razorback or predator. Why not take a 10-point lascanon and have the option to play at long distance. If the enemy is stun-locking you, great, just move off and do something else and enjoy the turn they weren't stun-locking your predators, vindicators, and dreads.

 

Possibility of a Stun-lock is a silly reason to not take a rhino. It's no more vulnerable than any other vehicle.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

But it's a silly reason to sit in the Rhino. Again, if you're putting a lascannon Sternguard squad in a Rhino, why not take a combi-pred for less points? Yes the Sternguard can do different things with the boltgun models, but then take a dakka pred or something.

 

Heavy weapon totting infantry should take advantage of their infantry status and ability to not be stun locked, deploying in cover etc. Doing so will see you get some good results from your firebase, I know I've enjoyed using my quad missile Devs recently as they can't be killed by one lucky shot, can't be stun locked and can very often get a better LoS. They perfectly complement my Typhoons who are cheaper and more mobile, but yet vulnerable to lucky shots and stun lock. Having all Typhoons would mean my opponent just has to shake them. Having Devs in cover means my opponent has to divert significant anti-infantry and maybe even anti-tank firepower to remove the unit and prevent it from shooting.

[Chengar Qordath]

Still overall i see your point but situationally i can see a point of doing it that way. Most prominent one is with dark eldar and thier untits that throw out massive amounts of poisoned shots that bounce of anything with armor but have a good chance to kill thinks with a toughness.

Have to agree there; AV 11 might be fairly fragile for a vehicle, but strength 4 still bounces right off of it. Being immune to enemy bolter fire is nothing to sneeze at.

[DarkGuard]

But is immunity to boltgun fire worth all the downsides to deploying in a Rhino bunker? Limited LoS, vulnerability to crew shaken and stunned results, and even, in the case of Devs, restrictions on amount of heavy weapons you can take.

 

If units with S4 weapons, ie. boltguns, splinter weapons like the Dark Eldar have, etc are going after your firebase sitting in cover then you have the upper hand. They've had to get close and therefore exposed themselves attacking a support unit, to which you should be able to reliably counter. And if you're fortunate enough to down their transports those sort of weapons shouldn't be in range.

 

The point was never, Rhino bunkers are absolutely awful, but rather does the good really outweigh the bad. I don't think it does. As I've said before if you want to pretend your a Pred why not take a Pred? Especially if it's a support unit like a Sternguard squad or Dev squad that can't score. Preds are less fragile and cheaper. Or maybe why not take Typhoons, even cheaper, and more mobile. If you're going full mech then why waste points on expensive long-range units in Rhinos for fire support when you could be taking other, cheaper choices that have all the same disadvantages. If you're going to take a heavy weapon team then the first thing you think of shouldn't be "oh no, S4 will hurt me, I'll put it in a Rhino" but rather "I have a firebase unit that can't be reliably and easily suppressed, lets put it in a good position".

[Captain Idaho]

Most of the games I've lost with my Marines happened because I stood around too long on table edge sniping with weapons which never hit (ok a little bad luck but still). I generally found I did better when using only a single "Camper" Tactical squad and the rest supported the attack, with a periodic top hatch popped and opportunistic heavy weapon shot later in the game.

 

So I would say use the transport as an infantry fighting vehicle. Fire your special weapons at opponents out of firepoints up close (where you can still move and fire at close range without impacting performance) and try to fire the heavy weapon only later in the game when stuff has been destroyed but usually Tactical Marines are still around in some numbers so their heavy weapon becomes more important.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

One Rhino bunker that *might* be worth something is a configuration of 2xML and 2xMM. In situations where combat squads are acceptable you can split the unit so that the MMs advance in the Rhino while the missiles hang back to support.

[DarkGuard]

But then you're using the Rhino bunker as a midfield bunker. At midfield and close range I believe the idea has more merit due to the greater amount of anti-infantry firepower that can threaten your unit, plus possibility of combat units etc. The ranged unit isn't using the Rhino though. It's the long range bunker that's the tricky one. Less possibility of vast quantities of anti-infantry firepower and less chance of being assaulted means the upside of protecting the unit may not outweigh the downsides.

[Ming]

Even when I take a rhino for a tactical squad, I often leave the HW (lascannon) element behind in cover, so it provides firepower as overwatch while the sergeant and assault element move forward in the rhino to complete their mission.

 

More often than not recently I use the same tactic, but the assault half of the tactical squad is in a razorback. I'm always looking for a means to get more AP2/AP1 weapons in every list while keeping the ability to move on my objective or mission.

[Grey Mage]

The stunlock is the killer for me. I just cant make that work in my head- why wouldnt they just hit it with a couple small plinky shots and remove your ability to hurt them for the turn? *shakes head*

If they are shooting at the rhino, they aren't killing the killy stuff. If you are operating at range, they aren't stun-locking you with anything less than anti-tank fire... which would stun-lock a razorback or predator. Why not take a 10-point lascanon and have the option to play at long distance. If the enemy is stun-locking you, great, just move off and do something else and enjoy the turn they weren't stun-locking your predators, vindicators, and dreads.

 

Possibility of a Stun-lock is a silly reason to not take a rhino. It's no more vulnerable than any other vehicle.

 

-Myst

Its not a problem with taking a rhino- its a problem with just sitting around in it expecting to be effective. I see alot of C:SM players complaining about how the rest of the squad is 'wasted' when they just fire the heavy weapon, even though they dont have to. Putting them in a rhino and using it as a bunker seems a great way to make this happen and truely waste the shots no matter what the outcome.

 

And no... S5 can make that rhino and its internal lascannon unusable, the same cant be said vs a predator or vindicator, atleast in the front arc, or my personal favorite- dreadnaughts. While S5 may not be common in your area, Tau are still a often seen army in my neck of the woods... not of course theres Necrons popping up everywhere these days.... And the squads that would fire on these rhinos wont be the kinds youd see targetting your battle tanks.

 

By all means take rhinos- they are cheap, expendable and very useful. Are they useful as a bunker? No.

[Brother Tual]

You do know a lascannon bunker is just an extension of the MM bunker idea. Its better. It has a 48" 'no go zone'.

 

A rhino is an addition to a tactical squad. Same as a heavy weapon. It should add to the tactical squad and how you use it. Not WHY you use it. A rhino allows you to cover x distance in a shorter period of time over walking. A lascannon bunker just fills in this time... Effective use? meh.. risky? moderate... It is just another tool in the shed. I wouldnt discount it as quickly as I do a MM bunker (because this is your intention when you selected, deployed and moved this unit) because it is not 'locked' in.

[Warprat]

I play an all foot SM army. Right now, I am handicapping myself to learn how to use foot squads to maximum advantage. But, in time, my next evolutionary leap forward will be adding in Rhinos. I see how much power they can bring to a squad, their versatility. I can't wait to use them, I hunger for it sometimes...

 

But would I use them as long range bunkers? With las cannons, probably not, but then I don't like adding las cannons into my Tactical squads. A plasma cannon combat squad though, might be viable. It would give the squad some protection against infantry type weapon, should some small unit go after it (outflankers/deepstrikers come to mind here). But would be generally low threat enough not to attract a lot of attention. If there was a lack of cover, and lots of targets that only plasma could really hurt, then the option might be very attractive.

 

Generally though, I would rather give the Rhino to the assault half combat squad to use as transport and cover. A double drive by flamer attack seems much more satisfying. The Rhino would benefit flamer template positioning, and give small arms protection for a small unit that needs all the protection it can get to survive a round or two.

 

And I can't really see putting a full squad into a Rhino though, just to use the heavy. Its a waste of bolter/special fire. Against firepower armies, you want to close and go to hand to hand. Sitting in the back is a waste. Unless you cant combat squad and have to babysit an objective out in the open. Maybe then...

 

Against assault armies its also a waste, because of the same issue. But this time denying the bolters and special fire a chance to soften up the enemy. Hmm, I guess you could still charge out of it though... with bolt pistols and gain an extra attack. That's usually not so good against close combat oriented armies though, LOL.

 

And then there is the Rhino smoke which could help protect it against fast moving vehicle busters. Or pop it off on a round if the unit in the Rhino gets shaken. Fire off smoke as the assaults get their meltas in range. So that's an extra tidbit...

 

 

But, my final answer would still be generally no. However, I would not rule out the occasional situational exception. Which is part of the flexibility Rhino's provide.

[Paulochromis]

I notice a lot of players rush for midfield and a great scrum eventuates.

Keeping a long-range full unit in a rhino in your backfield for the first three turns, THEN moving forward can be a viable tactic for a less melee-capable C:SM force.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I notice a lot of players rush for midfield and a great scrum eventuates.

Keeping a long-range full unit in a rhino in your backfield for the first three turns, THEN moving forward can be a viable tactic for a less melee-capable C:SM force.

 

That depends on the situation, though. The strength of a Tactical Squad is its bolters, after all, and if you're sitting in the backfield sniping with a single lascannon, you're wasting the potential of those bolters. I fell into the same thinking, used to run full squads in Rhinos with plasma cannons, and I'd just sit in the back and pour plasma fire out at long range. I've discovered it's better to close to the mid-field and when the enemy gets close, pop out and pelt him with bolt-rounds (I've also switched over to mostly Razorbacks instead, but that's a topic for another time).

 

That great scrum you mention can be avoided by maintaining seperation with your Rhinos. It's a good practice, in fact, because it's something we military types do in real life -- an IED will only get one truck in its blast radius, for instance, instead of two or three. In 40K terms, it prevents things like Hammernators or Assault Squads from charging multiple vehicles (or the squads that used to be therein) in a single go. I understand that sometimes the battlefield dictates close-order (terrain especially is a culprit here) but it's still something to think about.