Representing Cult troops

[A D-B]

A list of upgrades might be too much to ask for, but just by changing the name of the entries to something god-neutral, and having the background text say "The most famous and feared assault veterans are the Khorne Berzerkers of the World Eater legion..." we would have a much more open codex, which would allow many more sorts of armies.

Absolutely absolutely. I already try to think of the cult troops as "Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines" to take the god- and legion-specific baggage out of their entries. I think that as long as you plan ahead and think about what you are doing, it all works fine. I have a unit of "Nurgle rabies-thingys" :tu: and once I point out the chainaxes and extra skulls, no one I have played yet has complained.

 

I do the same, on a personal level. Berzerkers are Berzerkers because of their specific Berzerker surgery (even suggested in the codex) rather than a simple allegiance to Khorne. A Rubric Marine has no loyalty to anything anyway and isn't Tzeentchian in any way; it's an awesome automaton serving at the behest of a sorcerer.

 

And so on.

[totgeboren]

I do the same, on a personal level. Berzerkers are Berzerkers because of their specific Berzerker surgery (even suggested in the codex) rather than a simple allegiance to Khorne. A Rubric Marine has no loyalty to anything anyway and isn't Tzeentchian in any way; it's an awesome automaton serving at the behest of a sorcerer.

 

And so on.

 

And this is where I think one could take it a bit further. Is it not reasonable for the Alpha Legion to have some body of troops who are more elite than their basic members, and who could use rules which make them more powerful in close combat than the average marine? Should the only way for chaos marines to gain access to close combat experts be via 'Berzerker surgery'?

 

It is reasonable for just about every legion to have close combat experts, but it is not reasonable that all these elites units have undergone 'Berzerker surgery' imo, and I hope the new rules reflect that.

[Artein]

This is my favorite topic on B&C.

 

I love when A D-B explains how Chaos (and the galaxy) works in 40k. Because of topics like that I've been planning to build a Black Legion warband. Right now I'm toying with the fluff.

And I plan to include some "cult troops" like 'Zerkers that may not be World Eaters Berzerkers worshiping Khorne.... I'm still thinking about it but probably I want to include bearded SW heads.... Something in like "They were Ultramarines that were lost in the Warp but survived and came back.... changed and pretty insane."

 

Chaos is everything and nothing. Endless possibilities. Thousands of warbands. 9 original Legions, many more renegades from loyalist Legions and Chapters. Temporal alliances. Betrayal. Backstabbing. Hatred. Fighting common enemy. Madness.

 

Sure Night Lord Plague Marines are pretty uncommon but It's always possible to have a group of them infected with a nurlglish disease of some sort. Little bacteria-daemons eating brain-cells, injecting warp-hormones. They may or may not worship Nurgle.

 

Freedom and slavery to the Dark Gods. Everything and nothing.

[Excessus]

...though, with playing Alpha Legion, I have an endless opportunity in getting "allies" to show up beside my legionnaires. Leak the position of a powerful magic trinket to a band of Thousand Sons(or just make it up) that just happens to be in the middle of my opponent's army, "hire" the skills of a berzerker squad with the promise of blood and skulls, and so on...

 

 

Operating throughout the IoM presents itself with unique opportunities for alliances. At least in my mind the planet of Ghorstangrad is still in Alpha Legion hands, it was after all them who took it over and on Lexicanum it just says it IS in CSM hands. I very much doubt the Alpha Legion would give up such a nice spot for a base easily, and being so far from the eye, I bet local CSM bands pay good "money" for supplies...

 

www.scholaprogenium.com/40kmap.jpg (it's in segmentum tempestus)

[Legatus]

I was looking through the codex about a year ago, and realised that for an Undivided theme, I only had access to Chaos Marines, or Chaos Marines with infiltrate, jump packs, bikes or extra heavy weapons.

Pretty much like a loyalist Space Marines army then. Only dedicated to Chaos instead of the Emperor. Who would have thought...

 

Loyalists have both Sternguard and Vanguard veterans, and even if the Vanguard Vets are overcosted, they have something to represent close combat vets. They also have techmarines, apothecaries, Land Speeders and many different sorts of dreadnoughts, not to mention whirlwinds, different Land Raiders and Razorbacks.

The problem here lies with the Codex Space Marines, which shouldn't include "Assault Veterans". The problem is not that the Chaos Codex does not include that as a choice. The Chaos Codex is "correct" here. On the other hand...

 

 

And this is where I think one could take it a bit further. Is it not reasonable for the Alpha Legion to have some body of troops who are more elite than their basic members, and who could use rules which make them more powerful in close combat than the average marine?

On the other hand, Chaos Space Marines have Veteran squads, and they should have more close combat options than loyalist Veterans. It's just that the entry for Veteran squads in the current Codex Chaos Space Marines is not a particularly good one.

 

--> Loyalists get "Tactical" Veterans that are well rounded.

 

--> Chaos Marines get "been around" Veterans with a lot more equipment options and the ability to infiltrate.

 

Jervis almost got loyalist Veterans right in his Dark Angels Codex. (...even though Dark Angels shouldn't have Veteran squads... and he couldn't resit giving them close combat options.) Gav almost got Chaos Veterans right in the Chaos Codex. (Their options are fine. He just missed the extra attack which they rightfully should have. The problem is that "+1 attack" had been tied to the Mark of Khorne in 3rd Edition.)

Unfortunately, when Matt did the Codex Space Marines, he ignored the mold that both the Dark Angels Codex and the Chaos Codex had used and changed the principles that the Veteran squad was based on.

[Hellios]

Jervis almost got loyalist Veterans right in his Dark Angels Codex. (...even though Dark Angels shouldn't have Veteran squads... and he couldn't resit giving them close combat options.) Gav almost got Chaos Veterans right in the Chaos Codex.

 

I don't see the problem with Dark Angels Veteran squads... They are not first company veterans but veterans in other companies. It isn't a new thing that the Dark Angels have veterans in companies other than the first... The only new thing would be that they put the veterans together into squads rather than having them all over the place... and considering how the dark angels like to keep little secrets to themselves having a squad of guys in the know with a battle company doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Real world polytheistic religions did/do have people worshiping multiple gods, but they usually have patron gods to that a person worships primarily based off what they do or personal taste. For a 40k example, an cc termie would most likely have Khorne as his patron, as that god is likely most in line with what he does, but his patronage wouldn't necessarily prevent him from offering a prayer to tzeentch before he teleports into combat to guide him through the warp successfully and closer to his enemies.

yes but the gods didnt hate each other . its as if a legioner tried worshiped the official pantheon one day and then switched to christ . it would mean he would die. Worship of gods in w40k is exclusive , the gods do not look well at those who try to buff others . the whole pantheon ? sure . no worship at all [so less "power" gained from a god specific act] but still doing a gods work ? sure . trying to get boons from more then one god at the same time ? well you better be horus or abadon .

 

Once again, it's a shame that what you're saying never happens is explicitly mentioned as happening in GW articles on Chaos. Yes, once you're Marked your soul belongs to that god. However, it isn't easy to be Marked. The vast majority of Chaos Marines actually probably wouldn't be Marked. And yes, part of Undivided worship is asking for the blessings of the particular God that is most relevant to your current situation. The Marine would still worship the Pantheon, nothing changed that, he's just calling more heavily for Khorne's favour when charging into battle, or to Tzeentch when a psyker is trying to fry him.

[firestorm40k]

If I was starting out again with my Legion of Taurus army, instead of purely having red Berzerkers, dirty Plague Marines, etc, I would make ‘counts-as’ marked troops; this would be based upon the squad honouring a particular aspect of the daemon the army follows – Tauran, the Bull-headed God.

 

For examples, Berzerkers would be Legionnaires devoted to the aspect of Tauran’s fury, unleashed against the daemons enemies.

 

Plague marines would be Legionnaires devoted to the aspect of Tauran ‘reborn’, for though the daemon’s mortal form was once destroyed, its essence was restored and Tauran has returned to real-space.

 

I had an idea for Noise Marines, which I may make in the future, which is that they are Marines who have been made from bull-headed Mutants; to Tauran’s followers, mutations in the form of horns or a bestial aspect are considered a mark of Tauran’s blessing; they are considered to have the ‘true voice’ of the Bull-headed God itself, and through psychic links to their weapons, are able to project this on the battlefield.

 

For Thousand Sons/Rubric Marines, these are Legionnaires who have devoted themselves fully to Tauran’s greater schemes, and have given up their identity and true selves to fulfil the daemon’s plans – in return for Tauran’s blessing and protection.

 

As said, this is what I would have done, but when this idea came to me I was already half-way through painting some ‘classic’ red Berzerkers, with plans to convert some Plague Marines, and I didn’t want to waste work I’d already done… In the meantime, I justify the presence of non-Legion of Taurus Marines in the army with the rationale that these are from warbands allied to the Legion, as the plans of Tauran fit with those of the Four Powers.

[A D-B]

This is my favorite topic on B&C.

 

I love when A D-B explains how Chaos (and the galaxy) works in 40k. Because of topics like that I've been planning to build a Black Legion warband. Right now I'm toying with the fluff.

 

In a moment of "Wait, am I even right here?", I asked one of the folks I know in the IP department, essentially, if I was explaining it right. I wanted to make it as clear as I could, since it's a subject I'm so keen on.

 

There is no Chaos Undivided, it does not exist. It's not a separate thing that you can worship and follow independently of the big four Chaos Gods. That’s like saying ‘the sea undivided,’ its makes no sense. It’s just Chaos. That’s why there is no Mark of Chaos Undivided in the last Codex. There was an icon to the Glory of Chaos, which like you say represents the glory of the pantheon, of Chaos in all of its manifestations. Daemon Princes can be ‘unaligned’, Furies are beings created to punish undecided souls (a reference to those who don't choose a god). The pantheon can be worshiped as a pantheon, or each god can be the subject of worship.

 

The kicker is also that even those that claim to use the power of Chaos but not to worship it, still serve each of the Chaos gods by their actions, thoughts, and emotions. A Night Lord Warband using Chaos as a device of terror is doing the same as a Word Bearer Warband. The intension behind the two acts is different, but to the Chaos Gods it’s all the same.

 

One of the things that I also think that people miss is that the mortal slaves of Chaos Gods don’t have to like the Gods they Serve. Its drug addiction as much as religion. A Plague Marine may hate Nurgle, a Berserker loathe Khorne, but they are slaves and they are addicted to the power of Chaos. They need it, and will do worse and worse things to get more of whatever their psyche craves. Some their patron, others hate them, but they all serve just the same – they have no choice.

[Yogi]

Although what you say has weight ADB. I am left with a messy understanding.

 

Perhaps the next chaos codex will present a more open and understandable view.

 

The problem will be that the codex will have ok units, awesome units and terrible units.

 

The whole point of counts as is you want a good unit that's fun to use. Its not because you want berzerker implant alpha legion.

 

As cool as a chaos lord with a blood feeder is its a terrible choice, dreadnoughts shooting your own guys is a terrible choice.

 

The fluff isn't bad now, its translation to tabletop is where the codex fails. And I personally expect will continue to fail.

 

3.5 is "gamey", but that's it point to be used to play a game.

 

I've got no beef, just wanted to leave my cynical opinion. Especially because I hate count as (I don't begrudge others doing it, but I can't be stuffed to build an army that way.)

[Marshal Rohr]

But what if someone wants to play a more disciplined and organized force still based on comraderie and under the command of the Primarch. There are no options for them.

[totgeboren]

@A D-B

That reply from the IP department might be the new way, and if so, I'm slightly sad to see them change this. Chaos Undivided has been a valid path since 2:ed (as in, not just praying to different gods at different times, but making it a point that one many not hold one god above any other), but it's implementation rule-wise hasn't really worked all that well, at least not since they made all the Cults fearless.

Going over to a more traditional polytheistic approach is maybe easier for all, since icons to the gods and such work well enough to represent a lesser boon than a full on mark. I however always imagined it took a little bit more to gain the attention and blessing of the Gods. Being able to change blessing like you change your pants makes dedicating yourself to a chaos god seem like a somewhat flippant thing to do.

I always imagined that once you go chaos, you never go back.

 

However, the last part of your quote presents dedication to a god as something you can't back down from when you are on the path, and that doesn't really work with the 'Change your icon to whatever suits you' approach of the first part.

 

Also, Icons suck on the tabletop. Not that they give bad buffs, but they are simply not fun to use, specifically that you need one dude in every squad to run around with a banner which looks silly, and if that guy gets hit, you lose the blessing of the god.

 

I look forward to the new codex, but not without a bit of apprehension. I mean, after what they did to the Grey Knights it seems anything goes background-wise.

Chaos might as well have one page say things like "Its drug addiction as much as religion" and on the next page say "A follower of Chaos may seek the blessing of Slaneesh for one battle, and Khorne the next". Well if that was the case the addiction wasn't really that strong now was it?

 

I think I'll be quiet, but I just always imagined going with one God as 'going over the cliff'. The new approach makes that cliff seem more like a foot deep ditch if you can just walk up again and jump into another ditch as you please.

[Hellios]

...

 

Well he got his answers from someone at GW... Since when did they start knowing what is going on XD

[Captain Juan Juarez]

In a moment of "Wait, am I even right here?", I asked one of the folks I know in the IP department, essentially, if I was explaining it right. I wanted to make it as clear as I could, since it's a subject I'm so keen on.

 

There is no Chaos Undivided, it does not exist. It's not a separate thing that you can worship and follow independently of the big four Chaos Gods. That’s like saying ‘the sea undivided,’ its makes no sense. It’s just Chaos. That’s why there is no Mark of Chaos Undivided in the last Codex. There was an icon to the Glory of Chaos, which like you say represents the glory of the pantheon, of Chaos in all of its manifestations. Daemon Princes can be ‘unaligned’, Furies are beings created to punish undecided souls (a reference to those who don't choose a god). The pantheon can be worshiped as a pantheon, or each god can be the subject of worship.

 

The kicker is also that even those that claim to use the power of Chaos but not to worship it, still serve each of the Chaos gods by their actions, thoughts, and emotions. A Night Lord Warband using Chaos as a device of terror is doing the same as a Word Bearer Warband. The intension behind the two acts is different, but to the Chaos Gods it’s all the same.

 

One of the things that I also think that people miss is that the mortal slaves of Chaos Gods don’t have to like the Gods they Serve. Its drug addiction as much as religion. A Plague Marine may hate Nurgle, a Berserker loathe Khorne, but they are slaves and they are addicted to the power of Chaos. They need it, and will do worse and worse things to get more of whatever their psyche craves. Some their patron, others hate them, but they all serve just the same – they have no choice.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

I read it as:

 

You can venerate the Gods as a whole - the Pantheon - without succumbing to ones curses or gifts.

 

You can venerate, serve or take advantage of a single god like Khârn or Ahriman.

 

You can delude yourself in to thinking you're "free" when your action still serve the gods in some way.

[A D-B]

@A D-B

That reply from the IP department might be the new way, and if so, I'm slightly sad to see them change this. Chaos Undivided has been a valid path since 2:ed (as in, not just praying to different gods at different times, but making it a point that one many not hold one god above any other),

 

Here's what you're still doing wrong. You're claiming it's new (it's not) and you're saying Chaos Undivided is different to before (it's not). You're also deriding something as new lore (like the Grey Knights) as a slightly snide defence, which is disingenuous and unreasonable. Look at the bit in bold. What you just described is exactly what a pantheon is. It's what I've said several times now, and it's what Chaos Undivided is. Not holding one god above the other. Equality. If you read my posts, I've said it several times. All you need to do is change a tiny slice of understanding, here. Some warbands will pray to different gods at different times. Some will just pray to the glory of Chaos and its pantheon in entirety, never ever ever holding one god above the other. You've seen the second option was what Undivided is. All you need to realise is that the first is the same thing; it's also what Undivided is, too. It doesn't less your position to understand that. It doesn't steal anything from you. It does nothing but add depth and nuance to a complicated subject.

 

 

Going over to a more traditional polytheistic approach is maybe easier for all, since icons to the gods and such work well enough to represent a lesser boon than a full on mark. I however always imagined it took a little bit more to gain the attention and blessing of the Gods. Being able to change blessing like you change your pants makes dedicating yourself to a chaos god seem like a somewhat flippant thing to do.

 

If it was that flippant, then I'd agree. But it's not. You're being flippant when you reduce all of Chaos' workings to a holding up a stick and citing that's about it for Chaos worship. As befitting all the endless scope and possibility, Icons will mean different things, and have different value, to different warbands. (I'm not sure why that's even difficult to understand; surely it's obvious...) Some will treasure them reverently for all time, and taken them as mono-seriously as you suggest. My warband certainly does. Others will raise their relics in a more traditional way: as prayers or blessings for a specific situation. If they're Undivided, they still won't hold one god over any other. They're Undivided. They worship Chaos and its pantheon. They don't hold one god above another. The ones who choose patrons are the ones who are no longer Undivded. But raising icons for an hour or two isn't choosing a patron, or holding one god above any other. It's a singular moment, and they'll do it equally between the gods, depending on circumstances.

 

I always imagined that once you go chaos, you never go back. However, the last part of your quote presents dedication to a god as something you can't back down from when you are on the path, and that doesn't really work with the 'Change your icon to whatever suits you' approach of the first part.

 

Not at all. You're taking two different points and meshing them out of context. See below.

 

Also, Icons suck on the tabletop. Not that they give bad buffs, but they are simply not fun to use, specifically that you need one dude in every squad to run around with a banner which looks silly, and if that guy gets hit, you lose the blessing of the god.

 

A lot of the rules aren't great at reflecting the lore. It's irrelevant to the point.

 

I look forward to the new codex, but not without a bit of apprehension. I mean, after what they did to the Grey Knights it seems anything goes background-wise.

Chaos might as well have one page say things like "Its drug addiction as much as religion" and on the next page say "A follower of Chaos may seek the blessing of Slaneesh for one battle, and Khorne the next". Well if that was the case the addiction wasn't really that strong now was it?

 

If that was the reality of what was being said, then no, it'd suck.

 

I think I'll be quiet, but I just always imagined going with one God as 'going over the cliff'. The new approach makes that cliff seem more like a foot deep ditch if you can just walk up again and jump into another ditch as you please.

 

It's actually the opposite. You're reducing it to gamey terms and raw soundbites that sound very demeaning, but don't really approach the nuance and depth of the reality. Taking a sentence here ans a sentence there - then pulling them from their context and addressing them as the whole point - is good for shooting down and ignoring an opinion you don't like, but terrible for understanding the setting.

 

Chaos is a continuum. Once you're on that continuum, the best you can hope for is to go no further (if that's what you want) but there are as many approaches to Chaos as there are followers of Chaos. Every approach is unique. What you're dismissing as "new" is actually just one of the few explanations that have ever gone into detail about how Chaos works. Nothing's being changed, it's just being explained better. And you're taking a quote here and a quote there, stripping away their context, and saying it's very simple. It's not. Raising an Icon is different to being Marked, or ascending to a Daemon Prince, or any one of a billion other services. It's just the shallowest level of investment, a very temporary one based on the god's power required at the time (like in practically all polytheist religions and fantasy genre settings).

 

Past that, you've got loads and loads of deeper, more nuanced levels of ivestment, based on what you want from Chaos and what it offers back - or how you're using it, and/or how it's deceived you. Going with one god is very much "going off the cliff", as you said. But raising an Icon for three hours isn't "going with one god" on a THIS MUST HAPPEN FOREVER term. It's just a single prayer or invocation. It's a Roman soldier praying to Mars before a battle, Eros to find a wife, and Saturn for a decent farming season (etc.). Don't mistake what Icons are (or, at least, what they often are).

 

Going off the cliff comes in the form of Marks and Daemonic ascension, and the billion other ways Chaos gets you.

 

Dude. I know you liked 3.5. I get that. But it was so agonisingly limiting and poor at explaining the Legions' actual variety, especially in how it detailed what Undivided was. There's several explanations of what Undivided is, in this very thread. They're not new. They're not limiting. They don't lack character or uniqueness. They're endless possibility, and I've done my best to explain, without getting myself fired, that this is how it always was despite the occasional hiccup in presentation, and I'm explaining it as clearly as I can. It's not new.

 

Basically, it's just a subtle shift in understanding what Undivided, and Chaos, actually are. But don't look at a complicated continuum of endless possibility and cheapen it with derisive soundbites incorrectly taken out of context. Is it really that terrible to think "Hm, I might've got Icons a bit wrong" and then look at the bigger picture? They can still be exactly that for your warband. You just can't apply it to all the Word Bearers. It doesn't even change the Legion, one iota. They've always been like this. They're not changing. They don't get less characterful or deep. They don't change at all.

 

I've spent hours trying to help out and offer detail with this, this week, and the arguments are circular and boring. I'm so close to just using the ancient internet trope of "But... you're wrong, I've explained how you're wrong, so this is over." But if I did, I'd have to hand in my internet membership card.

[Kol Saresk]

What it is looking like is that it is taking after the old Greco-Roman religions. There is a pantheon. You can worship the whole pantheon. When you worship the whole pantheon, it must be the whole pantheon. You can ask for favors from specific dieties, but you must still appease the whole pantheon. But the Pantheon includes the gods. It is not seperate and apart from them. The way Chaos works makes it a little simpler because one act of worship could actually have the possibility of satisfying multiple Powers even though you just asked one. Most people treat Chaos Undivided as a seperate entity. Sure, it includes the Four Greats in its description, but its practice treats as an individual power. I hope that comes across as understandable as it was in my head.

 

And the approach to the Furies makes some sense. Doesn't exactly jive with me but it makes sense. If every Power is a jealous Power, than it would want as many foliwers/sacrifices as possible. The Furies simply herd them towards one or other. Or rip them to shreds and devour their souls.

[A D-B]

Before I go for the daily run - Sorry for my frustration, Totgeboren. Typing while crabby is never wise.

 

And now: running.

[ThisisJimmy]

I think that differential between the idea of raising icons, temporarily or otherwise, and being marked is a very important point to make. At the beginning of the arguement I was very much against the idea of temporarily praying to a particular god (I simply couldn't understand why the Gods would be happy about these changing alleigances) , as it didn't make much sense to me. But the parallels between a Greco-Roman idea of gods and chaos' pantheons (why I couldn't see it until now escapes me right now) makes absolute sense. From a purely gaming stand point, I wouldn't apply any icons other than CG, but that is simply because if I modelled a unit with an icon of a particular mark, it would be as if they were commited to that god, simply because the model will always have that icon.

 

I truely hope this idea gets thoroughly explained (and as well as it has been in this thread) as the confusion is purely understandable. The idea of a true pantheon (ie not just the Big 4) is something that needs to be explained. Not necessarily by giving rules mind you, as its just going to get convoluted and potentially redundant, but in the background.

[Ammonius]

... From a purely gaming stand point, I wouldn't apply any icons other than CG, but that is simply because if I modelled a unit with an icon of a particular mark, it would be as if they were commited to that god, simply because the model will always have that icon.

Unless it is prohibited by your FLGS or any tournaments you want to enter, you ccould magnetize the Icons so that you can switch them out. Of course, you could just make a different Icon bearer for each Icon you intend to use, complete with extra god-specific trimmings (Khorne Icon bearer carries a chainaxe, Nurgle Icon bearer has dirtied up armor, etc.)

 

I truely hope this idea gets thoroughly explained (and as well as it has been in this thread) as the confusion is purely understandable. The idea of a true pantheon (ie not just the Big 4) is something that needs to be explained. Not necessarily by giving rules mind you, as its just going to get convoluted and potentially redundant, but in the background.

Back in the old Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned book, the infinite multiplicity of chaos patrons (from Daemon Princes all the way up to the Gods themselevs) was explored pretty extensively, and much of that material was carried over into the more recent Liber Chaotica books. However, Liber Undivided is only found in the Liber Chaotica: Complete Edition.

[Legatus]

Perhaps an example is in order? Though most already seem to get the idea.

 

Think of the norse gods as an example. If a norse family was in need of a rich harvest, or they wanted a healthy new child, they would pray and give offerings to Sif. If the men were about to go into battle, they would pray and give offeryings to Tyr. At no point would they really make an exclusive comittment, saying "Sif is the greatest of the deities, and I am a follower of Sif now". It is just that the gods are associated with different aspects, and that those particular gods are called on at times when it is about those aspects.

 

Similarly, a unit of Word Bearers that wanted to cause disarray and long term harm might call upon Nurgle to grant them his blessing, swearing to spread his plagues in the upcoming battle in exchange for his aid. Or a Word Bearers unit that is ordered to lead a brutal assault might pray to Khorne to grant them the martial strength to crush their enemies in the upcomming battle. They would not declare themselves Khorne followers at that point. They would simply ask Khorne for his support in this particular incident, promsing to dedicate all the slain foes of the battle to him.

 

That is why the Icons of the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines did not bother me from a fluff perspective (though I am not fond of the mechanic where a squad might lose their bonus). Units with icons are not "semi-plague Marines" that suddenly loose all their mutations and grow back their rotten limbs when the icon bearer dies. It is just that the squad will lose the temprary favour of that deity by disappointing (or boring) it, represented by the unit letting the deities Icon fall.

[totgeboren]

@A D-B

I fully understand your position, and I must confess I have been mixing my view of how I think specifically the traditional Word Bearers view Chaos Undivided, and what 'Chaos Undivided' is in a more general sense.

 

Much earlier background has presented the WB (not all of chaos undivided, just the WB) as frowning on exclusive worship of one god. This is nothing new. From my point of view, even the boon given by an icon should represent some quite considerable dedication to a god, with many lives offered up to even get a noticeable gift. Therefore I concluded that this might be a bit too much for the average conservative Word Bearer.

What they in my head gain from this (not going over to one god) is to keep much more of their sanity than the average chaos marine, but this is something I have just constructed on my own.

 

I'm not at all saying that this conservative WB way is the only way to see Chaos Undivided. To the contrary, to me they represent a very odd cult within chaosdom.

 

I actually agree with your view on Chaos Undivided in a general sense, but dude, seriously, we don't need to interpret the background of what chaos is in the exact same way. I think it is quite fitting actually, as all religions divide and divide until people feel obliged to kill each other.

Having two WB fans with quite different views on how to correctly interpret the Word of Lorgar (or at least the general idea) puts a smile on my face at least.

 

I think the only real difference in our views is what 'going over the cliff' entails. I think an icon to one of the gods represent going over, whilst you think that it is still possible to turn back at that point. These are just opinions, and I mean, I remember reading a story of an Ultramarine who was a plague marine, and he turned back, as far as to the Emperors grace in fact. Anything can happen in 40k, and if that can happen, then we are just arguing theology in a fictional setting.

 

And sorry if I came across as rude, I came out of surgery a few days ago (snapped a ligament in my hand), and I was on painkillers when replying. I'm not allowed to run for two weeks, think about that then you are panting and it feels like your lungs are about to collapse! :cuss

[Visitor13]

A D-B and Totgeboren, you need to settle this theological matter on the tabletop. Lorgar commands it.

 

I remember reading a story of an Ultramarine who was a plague marine, and he turned back, as far as to the Emperors grace in fact.

 

That was just the Grandpa testing a new type of disease on him.

[Dammeron]

Personally, I really like the Black Crusade roleplaying game means of determining allegiance or allignment: rather than simply purchasing the Mark of a particular God or its various gifts and blessings, what your character does and the characteristics it demonstrates determine whether one is on the "path" of a particular God, more than one God, all of them or none at all, and that allegiance can shift dramatically depending on what you start to do with your character. Of course, if your character has gone so far down the path of one God's allegiance so as to earn their Mark, then any switching of allignments comes with severe consequences.

 

Of course, such a system isn't possible on the scale of 40K, when you have multiple models all with potentially similar or varying allignments and allegiances, plus no real space of time for allegiances to be earned then switch back and forth depending upon behaviour. However, the dynamic does demonstrate something about the nature of allegiance to Chaos, and that is that it is incredibly subject to change and manifestation: individuals may venerate the entirety of Chaos as a pantheon of distinct entities, or as aspects of a single, great multifarious power (both of which are simultaneously true), or regard them as the Iron Warriors do; as immortal allies in an eternal war, to be respected, perhaps even paid homage to, but not necessarily worshipped. Then there are those throughout the legions who consciously venerate a single god or gods, earning their (dubious) blessings, and those who come under the attention or sway of particular powers not through conscious choice, but because they commit actions that interest or please that God. As a result, it is entirely possible to find servants, both witting and unwitting, of all the great powers and probably mutliple minor powers, princes and daemons throughout the Great Legions and the lesser warbands, regardless of affiliation. Even the Night Lords, undevout as they are, undoubtedly have individuals, squads and various offshoots which have fallen under the sway or turned to the worship of one or more powers. Then there are those who worship nothing and no one; who are totally atheistic in their approach, and have managed to avoid allignment, witting or otherwise.

 

For my money, I would love to see the range and nature of Chaos expanded; means by which the nature of minor warp powers, princes and entities are explored within the background, and possibly even instituted in gaming terms.

 

As I suggested earlier, I do think we have come to the point where we need to come full circle, and drop the distinct Chaos cults as the only means by which servants of the established powers can be represented, not by abolishing them entirely; that wouldn't be possible at this point, but by emphasising that they are far from the be all and end all, nor are their archetypes exclusive to particular powers, legions etc. For example, the "Berserker" archetype could represent any number of different sub cults, units and battlefield roles depending on the armies that field them: half cybernetic, lobotomised siege-warriors utilised by the Iron Warriors, for example, or Dark Crusaders for the Word Bearers; those whose sole purpose is to slay the enemy and send their apostate souls screaming into the bosom of Chaos. If you want classic Khorne Berserkers, then just give the unit a Mark of Khorne, and suddenly, that's what you have. Just a note in the background pointing out that the most infamous of Berserkers hail from the World Eaters legion and venerate the Blood God should be more than enough to satisfy those who clamour for tradition, whilst also blasting the options within the army list and potential for conversion etc wide open. Even "Spirit Warriors" or the Automata that are currently relegated to the Thousand Sons legion aren't necessarily unique: how about an unmarked unit of automata warriors who MAY be given the Mark of Tzeentch to distinguish them as Thousand Sons, but might just as easily be given the Mark of Nurgle, like the Worm Lords of Mortrex; warriors whose interior forms have been almost entirely eaten away by warp-spawned, worm like parasites who now fill their armoured forms to bursting, tottering across the battlefield like badly manipulated marionnettes, spraying infectious filth from their weapons? Or the almost entirely robotic living weapons utilised by the Iron Warriors: battle brothers that have sacrificed mobility to have a variety of long range weaponry surgically grafted into their bodies? And so on and so forth.

[ThisisJimmy]

Unless it is prohibited by your FLGS or any tournaments you want to enter, you ccould magnetize the Icons so that you can switch them out. Of course, you could just make a different Icon bearer for each Icon you intend to use, complete with extra god-specific trimmings (Khorne Icon bearer carries a chainaxe, Nurgle Icon bearer has dirtied up armor, etc.)

 

What I meant was that they would never carry anything but an icon of CG, and for the same reason as totgeboron, I simply don't see WB carrying any othe icon. I'm not denying the fluff raised in this thread, I simply believe that what seperates the WB would be that unflinching dogmatism toeards the pantheon and never singleing out a god as more worthy for prayer. I realise the Dawn of War quotes point in a different direction, this is simply my interpretation of what WB faith really is. Because if it isn't different in some way, then essentially they are just another warband.

 

And even though the old Rogue Trader books do explore the smaller warp entities, I would still like to see it in the new codex, simply to help explain the idea of true pantheon. I.e. it is not just the 4 main gods

[Hellios]

Yes...

 

The difference between true worship of the panetheon as a single object of devotion...

 

Or the fickle prayers of those who belong to the catagory of chaos undecided.