Representing Cult troops

[Warsmith Aznable]

As an actual (soft) polytheist, I could perhaps throw some theological terms out there for consideration.

 

Henotheism is where there is a person or sect within a polytheistic culture that recognizes and respects the multiple gods of that tradition, but dedicates their activities and veneration at a specific diety from amongst them.

 

Kathenotheism is where a person or sect within a polytheistic culture recognizes all the gods of that tradition, and more or less rotates through them as part of a "holy schedule."

 

When thinking about Chaos in general I think in a spectrum between these two concepts. I reckon that a beginner Chaos worshipper would go toward whatever god was convenient to the situation, the way that some polytheists in the real world invoke the god of a specific thing for a specific reason, such as an ritual offering to the god of the sea before going on an ocean voyage. Catholics do this in a similar way with patron saints.

 

As the Jeske has pointed out, in 40k the gods are considerably less abstract or subjective in answering prayer, so I see that once favors begin to be bestowed (or demands made) then an organized chaos cultist would either consciously do the kathenotheist route of glorifying all the gods in turn, but probably still retaining a situational aspect out of practicality. But others, even within the same warband, might decide henotheism was more their style based on personal experience, presence or extreme circumstance. In this respect I see no problem at all with a squad of Word Bearers being really into Khorne.They are that warband's assault specialists, they do the pantheon worship with the rest of the war and, listen to their leader's dark sermons, then go back to their squad bay and chainsaw a skull or two for Khorne because he's their number one guy. They'd probably sit at the back of the cathedral and read comic books when it was Tzeentch Wednesday or Slaanesh Friday, but I would reckon they'd still go to the service because that's what WB do.

 

As far as switching marks in a single squad, you could imagine that the squad did some specific dedication prior to the battle and maybe aren't always into that god so exclusively. After all, the benefits go away once the icon is dropped.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

We can all agree that the current dex probably wasnt the greatest release ever done by GW but they did leave a lot of options open to play in a way you want. Sure some armies did get gimped and some people felt marginalised that the hard work they put in to modelling was essentially down the drain beyond counts as. However I really dont understand where this confusion of Chaos Undivided has come from or the confusion of the Word Bearers.

I will admit I read a ton of background with essentially everything from the realm of chaos to now so that may mean I might be able to get a clearer picture than those who have read maybe an IA and few codeci (?). But the thing with all the background is that it has never truly conflicted or contradicted itself. The biggest problem with pointing to the 3.5 dex was that it tried to put limitations on chaos. How can you limit chaos? How can you limit the founding legion of Chaos? It was nonsense and the new dex shows that if you scratch beyond the surface rather than having it dropped on your lap and that is brilliant. Sure, I was put off that I couldnt tweak every particular squad the way I wanted with Daemonic Visage, Strength etc but once id calmed down I was able to assess how elegantly they had showed the limitless of Chaos.

 

The human mind would obviously seek to make a coherent path or understanding but Chaos doesnt work that way and the Word Bearers realise that. They seem to realise their doom and seek to cause the greatest pain they can with the fanatical devotion they were censured for (of course ABD may stroll in with his IP power and blow me out of the water but you never know, I could have the rub of it :ph34r: ) jumping between all the Gods to try and gain some sense of religious fulfilment but constantly failing to feel what they did with the Emperor. Its a great Legion that has one of the most truly tragic downfalls and continued descent

[Dammeron]

We can all agree that the current dex probably wasnt the greatest release ever done by GW but they did leave a lot of options open to play in a way you want. Sure some armies did get gimped and some people felt marginalised that the hard work they put in to modelling was essentially down the drain beyond counts as. However I really dont understand where this confusion of Chaos Undivided has come from or the confusion of the Word Bearers.

I will admit I read a ton of background with essentially everything from the realm of chaos to now so that may mean I might be able to get a clearer picture than those who have read maybe an IA and few codeci (?). But the thing with all the background is that it has never truly conflicted or contradicted itself. The biggest problem with pointing to the 3.5 dex was that it tried to put limitations on chaos. How can you limit chaos? How can you limit the founding legion of Chaos? It was nonsense and the new dex shows that if you scratch beyond the surface rather than having it dropped on your lap and that is brilliant. Sure, I was put off that I couldnt tweak every particular squad the way I wanted with Daemonic Visage, Strength etc but once id calmed down I was able to assess how elegantly they had showed the limitless of Chaos.

 

The human mind would obviously seek to make a coherent path or understanding but Chaos doesnt work that way and the Word Bearers realise that. They seem to realise their doom and seek to cause the greatest pain they can with the fanatical devotion they were censured for (of course ABD may stroll in with his IP power and blow me out of the water but you never know, I could have the rub of it :ph34r: ) jumping between all the Gods to try and gain some sense of religious fulfilment but constantly failing to feel what they did with the Emperor. Its a great Legion that has one of the most truly tragic downfalls and continued descent

 

 

The biggest problem with 3.5 is that it's -deeply corrupted- soul was in the right place; it wanted to represent Chaos in all its multifarious glory, but went several quantum leaps too far in its enthusiasm. The single BIGGEST mistake was the appendix army lists for the Chaos legions. This was wholly unnecessary given how flexible the core army list was and could have been: all that needed to be done was to introduce some of the more abstruse options within the appendix army lists -Dark Apostles, Warsmiths, stealth, chaos cultists etc- within the core army list, remove some of the 0-1 limitations on certain units, limit chaos rewards/gifts to three per independent character, two per non-independent character, and suddenly you'd have a single, all singing, all dancing army list that is nigh perfect. From there, all that would have to change are a few tweaks and revisions to refine army selection (all the nonsense concerning this being wargear and that not; everything counts as wargear. There. Issue solved.), a little tweaking and revision concerning the application of Marks (marks should not immediately turn models to which they are applied into "cult" units; they should either be seperate units or exist as another degree of upgrades), and Nurgle's your Pappa; you have a single army list that easily represents all of the multifariousness and variety of chaos, doesn't need any confusing and abstruse extra army lists, and functions quite adequately all around.

 

The biggest problem with the current codex is that it is a rushed and unfinished product; an entirely corporate exercise that was intended to fill a gap between one product line and the next, and boy does it show: sloppy editing, badly cut, copied and pasted artwork; artwork in army list entires that clearly displays combinations of wargear that aren't available in the army list itself (Noise Marine entry; either a Chaos Lord with a Doom Siren, power sword and plasma pistol, even though Chaos Lords can't have Doom Sirens, or a Noise Champion with the same, even though Noise Champions can't have plasma pistols. Brilliant.), the laziest, most anorexic army list you are ever going to see from GW, and so on and so forth. Does it do a few things right on the meta level? Yep: the emphasis on fractured warbands isn't a bad thing, nor is the ability to apply marks far more broadly, but the mechanisms by which those are achieved are sloppy and under baked. Removing daemons entirely from Chaos Space Marines was an entirely corporate move designed to make chaos players go out and buy two entirely seperate armies, neither of which function even half way adequately. Whereas 3.5 is an example of an over-ambitious cook with pretentions of fine dining ramming far too many flavours and textures together on a plate, 4.0 is a lukewarm hamburger with soggy, brown lettuce. Personally, I'll always praise ambition and inspiration over apathy and technicality, no matter how quixotic the first might ultimately be.

 

My worry is that the up and coming Legions codex will take all that is worst from 3.5 rather than all that is best; instead of providing a single, all dancing, all singing army list from which myriad different workable armies might be assembled, we will get ridiculous and redundant appendix army lists; statements that only these guys may take this, and only these guys may take that. If that does turn out to be the case, I think I may be sticking with my Dark Eldar for the foreseeable future. Still, given how good the codicies have been of late, the Dark Eldar in particular standing out as an almost, almost pristine army book, I do have a great deal of hope for Codex: Chaos Legions or whatever the hell it's going to be. But, the proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating: I will be reserving judgment and great, sweaty wads of cash until I've actually read the book a couple of times. I'd be very, very happy if my painstakingly painted and converted Great Unclean One, Sniffles, could join my Death Guard as a Great Unclean One again, instead of some limp and lifeless generic "Greater Daemon." I'd also ve very, very happy if the dynamic of Chaos lists changed fundamentally a little with this release: more in the way of lesser, human or mutant units available that can be used to make a kind of cannon fodder, horde army herded along by highly elite Traitor Legion masters. That would be quite fantastic, as it would be an excellent way of differentiating how the ancient Traitor Legion armies work in contrast to Imperial Space Marines.

[The Colossus]

I'm surprised no ones mentioned the Sanctified- essentially Khorne worshipping Word Bearers. My own army is based around them- squads of Chaos Marines with Khorne Icons, Berserkers (without the bunny ears, they're not World Eaters), and plenty of Bloodletters to use as lesser daemons. To me, they represent a cult of Word Bearers who started to venerate a single god above all. Clearly, if the Word Bearers worshipped the pantheon equally, all the time, from an individual level to a legion level, this situation would never arise. It's not inconceivable for other similar cults to exist, venerating another god. The Sanctified are obviously a throwback to the old days of Word Bearers being Khornate, hence their existence.

 

I rather hope the new codex doesn't get restrictive with choices- ala 3.5, as this would nerf half my models. I like Dammerons

idea a lot. We shall see I guess.

 

Just me two kraks....

[Dammeron]

I'm surprised no ones mentioned the Sanctified- essentially Khorne worshipping Word Bearers. My own army is based around them- squads of Chaos Marines with Khorne Icons, Berserkers (without the bunny ears, they're not World Eaters), and plenty of Bloodletters to use as lesser daemons. To me, they represent a cult of Word Bearers who started to venerate a single god above all. Clearly, if the Word Bearers worshipped the pantheon equally, all the time, from an individual level to a legion level, this situation would never arise. It's not inconceivable for other similar cults to exist, venerating another god. The Sanctified are obviously a throwback to the old days of Word Bearers being Khornate, hence their existence.

 

I rather hope the new codex doesn't get restrictive with choices- ala 3.5, as this would nerf half my models. I like Dammerons

idea a lot. We shall see I guess.

 

Just me two kraks....

 

 

entirely subjective and speculative on my part, of course, but I do imagine certain sub-cults within the Word Bearers maintaining entire squads or maybe even companies specifically dedicated to one power or another as a means of courting or appeasing their ethereal masters. I'd imagine that they regard it as a matter of self sacrifice; abandoning the blessings of the other deities in favour of the one for the greater good. It isn't too far a stretch to conceive of a Dark apostle whose metaphysics runs to "balancing the humours" of the Four Great Powers by actively encouraging certain degrees of worship for each within his forces. I can't recall the exact wording, but the Word Bearers Index Astartes article went to great pains to point out that individual Grand Hosts are entirely idisyncratic in terms of how their beliefs and practises manifest, depending on the visions and revelations their Dark Apostle has. The over-arching cult of Lorgar therefore contains and allows for myriad different sub cults and manifestations of belief, up and to and including, I imagine, god-specific worship. Even if this isn't the case, there have un doubtedly been any number of schisms, holy wars and apostasies within the legion throughout the decades; individual champions falling under the sway or worship of this god or that, breaking away from the legion to start their own cults or warbands. This is the nature of any ideological belief system; a cursory examination of "real world" philosophy, academia, history and religion should be more than enough to demonstrate that. And the Chaos Legions have had alot longer for these differences and fractures to foment than most currently existing manifestations of such ideologies: ten thousand + years is an unbelievably long time. The notion that their philosophies and traditions have remained the same as they were during the Horus Heresy is simply absurd.

[TheDarkApostle]

The Sanctified are obviously a throwback to the old days of Word Bearers being Khornate, hence their existence.

Or it might be an homage to the Liber Chaotica Book of Khorne which explicitly says that Khorne alone was able to get Astartes from all of the Traitor Legions to fall into his worship.

 

TDA

[TheDarkApostle]

The notion that their philosophies and traditions have remained the same as they were during the Horus Heresy is simply absurd.

Except looking at the Index Astartes article:

 

Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a facsimile of their former discipline and faith. That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters, but their organisation bears a twisted resemblance to their former glory.

 

(*A facsimile (from Latin fac simile, "make alike") is a copy or reproduction of an old book, manuscript, map, art print, or other item of historical value that is as true to the original source as possible. It differs from other forms of reproduction by attempting to replicate the source as accurately as possible in terms of scale, color, condition, and other material qualities.)

 

;)

 

TDA

[Dammeron]

Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a facsimile of their former discipline and faith. That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters, but their organisation bears a twisted resemblance to their former glory.

 

 

I've highlighted certain parts of the quote for emphasis: when the article points out that they maintain a facismile of their former organisation and faith, it means exactly that: not that it is the same, but that it resembles their original organisation to a very finite degree. The succeeding sentence quite clearly emphasizes how corrupt and distorted that facsimile has become over the centuries, deliberately leaving out specific detail concenring those distortions so that players can make up their own minds.

[Kol Saresk]

Like Dark Apostles commanding the Hosts, Captain and Commander ranks are replaced with the title Coryphaus and are subservient to the Dark Apostle. And I don't know if it was just a quirk of Anthony Reynolds or what but all of the Coryphaus(what is the plural?) he has mentioned all have "Kol" in their name somewhere. And then Sergeants are replaced by Coterie champions. And I'm sure that there are Coterie champions are elevated a bit higher than the others and serve as Company-level command during deployment when the need arises because calling out ten thousand orders to ten thousand squads would just get annoying after a while.

[ThisisJimmy]

Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a facsimile of their former discipline and faith. That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters, but their organisation bears a twisted resemblance to their former glory.

 

What this quote refers to is their previous faith to the Emperor. So the facsimile is their new worship of the chaos cods, and how their organisation has changed with their change of faith. This is in regards to the institution of structural changed such as the the Dark Apostles being the leader of a Host, rather than a captain as it was Pre Heresy. No where is there the suggestion that the Legion is fractured along lines such as which god to worship. This is further reinforced not only through the Anthony Reynolds series, but also Ben Counter's Daemon World. Not only does it pretty much flat out state that the Legion is far from fractured, but that they actively work to punish traitors to the Legion. Both sets of books also have title characters show disdain towards members who have turned, or are turning, toward the worship of one God. Now maybe these are simply puritanical characters out of touch with the reality (ala Talos), but I don't think so. I don't think that 2 different writers would present the same view in 2 completely different character universes. Rather, I think that these characters represent the reality of the legion.

 

I also want to say that I'm talking specifically about worship, not about Gifts. The reason I bring this up is because in the Dark Apostle series we see a DA riding a disc of Tzeentch. I see these gifts as not necessarily from the result of worship, but the result of completing some task, communicated or otherwise

[TheDarkApostle]

I also want to say that I'm talking specifically about worship, not about Gifts. The reason I bring this up is because in the Dark Apostle series we see a DA riding a disc of Tzeentch. I see these gifts as not necessarily from the result of worship, but the result of completing some task, communicated or otherwise

Not to mention instances (mostly in Fantasy Battles but IMO it's still relevant) where gifts can be "absorbed" so some degree by a Champion by killing a Champion with that gift.

 

The Warriors of Chaos book brings up another fun little tidbit saying that those who worship all of the Gods without dedicating themselves seem to retain most of their own wills while those who dedicate themselves to a singular God of course gains alot more for their singular worship compared to those who still keep with all the Gods, but at the same time devolve mentally as they eventually become little more than extensions of their particular God's will.

 

Which sort of echo similar thoughts described in the Liber Chaotica where the Gods "push" their particular will into mortals and as I read it at least, those who willingly give themselves to one God will open themselves more to the external "push" of that God while to a greater extent "shutting out" the wills of the other Gods making a singular warriors growing more and more "cliche" as they delve deeper and deeper into worship of that God.

 

Where as a warrior giving praise to all of the Gods would retain more of his own personality as all the Gods would push their wills in somewhat equal amounts allowing the warrior in question to function as "normal" as no base emotion would take over more than the rest.

 

If that makes sense, I'm not quite sure how to formulate myself the best on the subject. :)

 

TDA

[Phoros]

One of the main reasons that I don't like Thousand Sons units is because I feel that it's hard to use them in anything other than a Thousand Sons/ Black Legion army. They don't feel like "generic marines of their god" like the Zerkers, Plagues and Noisies do, who could be from any warband.

[Vesper]

One of the main reasons that I don't like Thousand Sons units is because I feel that it's hard to use them in anything other than a Thousand Sons/ Black Legion army. They don't feel like "generic marines of their god" like the Zerkers, Plagues and Noisies do, who could be from any warband.

 

And that's also what makes TS so interesting :).

[Warsmith Aznable]

One of the main reasons that I don't like Thousand Sons units is because I feel that it's hard to use them in anything other than a Thousand Sons/ Black Legion army. They don't feel like "generic marines of their god" like the Zerkers, Plagues and Noisies do, who could be from any warband.

 

There's always the idea that a 1k Aspiring Sorcerer takes the remains of his former squad and goes out adventuring on his own, hiring himself out to pay for his research or whatever it is he's into. Maybe the other Aspiring Sorcerers were cramping his style or stealing his research, or maybe making fun of his hat or whatever. It's an easy way to put a single squad of Rubrics into any warband you like.

 

Or that a later Aspiring Sorcerer from a different warband got tired of his squad, didn't like the direction things were going, and recreated Ahriman's Rubric to make things a little less democratic. No more tough guys getting in the Aspiring Sorcerer's way or calling him a nerd for spending all his time reading, they do what they're told now...

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Indeed. I won't spoil Battle of the Fang too much for anyone, but basically there's a sorcerer who and ends up having private conversation with a Rubric, as if he were a close friend (albeit a one-sided conversation!). They would be attached to their former brothers, and even other sorcerers. It's not ALL rivalry.

 

Thousand Sons could be in any warband, plain and simple.

 

Money.

 

Some chaos marines trade in the markets of Commorragh, and some even hold "shops". They need stuff to purchase new items, and the way to get that stuff is by lending their services to anyone who DON'T have what the Thousand Sons have.. AP3 and Sorcery I guess?

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Or that a later Aspiring Sorcerer from a different warband got tired of his squad, didn't like the direction things were going, and recreated Ahriman's Rubric to make things a little less democratic. No more tough guys getting in the Aspiring Sorcerer's way or calling him a nerd for spending all his time reading, they do what they're told now...

 

/win. This is a hilariously awesome idea. Though I'd likely use the renegade Tson idea instead

[Kristoff]

I call the Thousand Sons unit in my warband just Rubric Marines, because they aren't related to Thousand Sons at all. They have the loincloths and chest pieces, but that's about it. So they look like mostly normal Chaos Marines, except all purple armor (the rest of the army is brown washed in purple) with loin clothes.

 

My story behind them is they fall under 2 categories, they have received "peace" from the apothecaries (most are now minor sorcerers) so they don't lose body counts, or they are captured enemy marines who have been "convinced" to join their band. All this "peace" and "convincing" are through a modified and very local version of the Rubric provided by my warband's Warp Sponsor.

[Brother Galfridus]

It can also depend on how far you want to take count-as. I'm very tempted to have TSons in my Iron Warriors represented by a techmarine looking sorceror and some robots/mostly bionic marines.

[the jeske]

Or that a later Aspiring Sorcerer from a different warband got tired of his squad, didn't like the direction things were going, and recreated Ahriman's Rubric to make things a little less democratic. No more tough guys getting in the Aspiring Sorcerer's way or calling him a nerd for spending all his time reading, they do what they're told now...

only the only time it was actualy done it took the whole 1ksons legion to cast it and even to summon already existing[but dead/warp lost] 1ksons the caster needed the help of Magnus[up there in the "most powerful caster ever" post demon hood] and a pre heresy artefact (+a a few hives of sacrifices to even start the ritual ].

 

The idea that a lone asp sorc could cast it alone is beyond possible .

[Phoros]

Well, the Sons are capable of resealing souls into armour, so maybe that's just what sorcerers from other warbands do?

Anyway, my point wasn't that the fluff wasn't malleable, it's that they don't feel like generic Tzeench marines who could show up in any army. Khorne worshippers get magic rage powers - Berzerkers. Nurgle worshippers become hideously resilient and diseased - Plague Marines. Slaanesh worshipers get noise weapons (another one I think is a bit iffy, but ehh) - Noise Marines. Tzeench worshippers become... slow. With magic boltguns. I'd rather see a squad of "Tzeench Changelings" or something, with lotsa mutations, lead by an aspiring sorcerer.

[Vesper]

It can also depend on how far you want to take count-as. I'm very tempted to have TSons in my Iron Warriors represented by a techmarine looking sorceror and some robots/mostly bionic marines.

 

God yes. Robots with super-duper bolters, I love this idea ! It even explains the low initiative, and the aspiring sorcerer could be some kind of tech-guy or something.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Or that a later Aspiring Sorcerer from a different warband got tired of his squad, didn't like the direction things were going, and recreated Ahriman's Rubric to make things a little less democratic. No more tough guys getting in the Aspiring Sorcerer's way or calling him a nerd for spending all his time reading, they do what they're told now...

only the only time it was actualy done it took the whole 1ksons legion to cast it and even to summon already existing[but dead/warp lost] 1ksons the caster needed the help of Magnus[up there in the "most powerful caster ever" post demon hood] and a pre heresy artefact (+a a few hives of sacrifices to even start the ritual ].

 

The idea that a lone asp sorc could cast it alone is beyond possible .

 

They also did it to a whole legion (or what was left of it), so you could just say it's a matter of scale. Or that Ahriman did it as a favor. Or that this is just a silly game and it doesn't matter what exact science you have behind your pretend sorcery.

[Urauloth]

Coryphaus(what is the plural?)

 

That's an interesting question, because the word itself is missing a letter. "Coryphaei" is the plural of "coryphaeus" (the leader of a choir) but I don't know if the removal of the e is a deliberate stylistic move or a mistake. If it's intentional, it makes it hard to approximate a plural (although you could just drop the e from that as well, I guess)

 

I'm derailing here, though, so I'll let you get back to your topic (which is a very interesting read)

[Bearingtheword]

It can also depend on how far you want to take count-as. I'm very tempted to have TSons in my Iron Warriors represented by a techmarine looking sorceror and some robots/mostly bionic marines.

 

God yes. Robots with super-duper bolters, I love this idea ! It even explains the low initiative, and the aspiring sorcerer could be some kind of tech-guy or something.

 

 

Kinda like the Legio Cybernetica 9th Maniple, Carthage Cohort, the Mechanicum attache's (sp?) that were with the WB in The First Heretic? Led by Tech Adept Xi-Nu 73, consisting of Conquerer Primus Incarnadine, the Crusaders Sanguine and Alizarin, and Cataphract Vermillion. This could easily be expanded upon to use as a counts as "rubrics" squad. In fact, I am suddenly becoming very, very, very tempted to do so....

 

I already had plans to do some oblits based on Dark Mechanicum forces, ala Darioq-Grendh'al and his servants from the Reynolds trilogy, so this is a logical extension of that idea I think....

 

 

Also as for the Coryphaeus, even though it was spelled Coryphaus in the book I think that he actually meant Coryphaeus. Here is the relevant passage from Anthony Reynolds' Dark Apostle:

 

Kol Badar was the Coryphaus. It was a symbolic title, granted to the most trusted and capable warrior leader and strategos of the Host. His word was second only to that of the Dark Apostle. The Coryphaus was the Dark Apostle's senior war captain, but more than this, he was the voice of the congregation. The mood and opinion of the Host was delivered to the Dark Apostle through him, and it was his duty to lead the chanted responses and antiphons from the gathered Hosts in ceremonies and rituals. It was also his role to lead the responses within the true house of worship of the dark gods: the battlefield.

 

Reading that I think that "leader of the choir" is exactly what they were going for. :)

 

~BtW

[Kol Saresk]

I believe the misspelling is intentional. But it is possible that the plural remains the same.