Andy.P Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Ok to I wanted a small combat unit in a razorback, originally was going to take 5 veterans (1 power fist and 4 power weapons) lead with a chappy. Now I could take a 2nd command squad with banner and medic 1 power fist and 1 power weapon lead by an interrogator chappy. Im undecided....... Any idea's?? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Do not discount the Command ability to take two meltas, your two power weap/fist and a company champ with power sword. Vets (currently) can only take one melta but can load up with as many power weapons as you can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy.P Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 I may be able to take a champ, but im running with belial and you can't rub a champ with him. I like the melta idea alot tho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 IMHO the champ is overpriced... you're paying almost two times the price of a regular powersword for a measly extra 6++ save and no increase in stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Crunching the numbers will give the two units outfitted as you describe a 5 point difference. My Vet Sqd load-out is; PF, 4xPW, in a HB/RB w/Chappi. Command Sqd load-out; w/Apoth, Champ, Standard, PF, 2xPW, in a HB/RB w/Chappi is more expensive with less Power Weapons. But for that +5 points your getting FNP, and an extra A on the Charge. Getting rid of the Champion and Standard in the Cmd Sqd will make the Cmd Sqd option 30 points cheaper that the Vets, and you'll get FNP. The Banner might not be worth the points because it is unlikely that you'll get the charge out of the RB. Depending on what your going up against will determine your need for the extra PW's or the FNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 My loadout is the above 2 melta, 2 powerswords and a champ in a Rhino with a 2nd storm bolter. The 2nd storm bolter gives me almost the same firepower as a HB Razorback and I can shoot the two meltas from the top hatch without getting out. It's primarily an anti armor mission with the swords along for when they blow me out of the Rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy.P Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Im playing GKs on sunday. I uave a termy command squad in a lrc w/ belial and this squad will back them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I hope the champion gets a fix in the next book, I have a (nice, IMHO) champion model that I did up for the ritual duel between DA and SW whenever they cross paths, and he happens to be equipped in a way that is WYSIWYG for a company champion, but fielding him is idiotic given the cost/benefit... Even better if the champion gets variable equipment options in the next dex, I'd love to be able to field the "boarding marine" ("iron armor" PA, TH/SS) that I picked up at adepticon last year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodle Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I think it's hard to justify vets in a list, they seem to pale in comparison to other options. The more points you pour into them, the closer they get to terminators; a much better choice. If you keep them cheap they are stuck in mop up/tar pit duty, which the command squad performs better with the apo to make sure no lucky wounds get through. You're not going to need SS' for this role, so that isn't a factor. Maybe they can work at around 150-190 points value, never tried it. I choose to take a command squad instead, simply kitted out with an apo and two meltas. I'm debating on a power weapon or power fist but I like them this cheap, just as a hardy tac squad that fires from a rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddles Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Belial is master of the first company and therefore a company master. Anyone who argues against a company champion in the command squad is a peon and should be scorned. It's not even as if it's a steamroller unit anyway As to your original question, the FNP and double melta pushes the command squad ahead of the vets for a 5 man te am. The vets pull ahead in bigger units and when loaded up for cc but then they are exceedingly expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy.P Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Cheers for the help, so I've decided to run the 2nd command squad in a rhino with an interrogator chappy. Heres the list I plan to run. HQ: Belial w/ command squad, 3x th/ss 2x lc, cml, apothecary & banner. Interrogator Chappy (combi melta) w/ command squad, 2x pf, 2x melta, apothecary & banner, in a rhino w/ storm bolter. Troops: 3x shooty terminator squads each w/ cml Fast Attack: 2 Land Speeder Typhoons Heavy Support: Landraider Crusader (or Redeemer w/ multimelta) w/ storm bolter Predator w/ auto cannon & heavy bolter. This comes in at 2k points and I am allowed to take the Redeemer after asking my opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Belial is master of the first company and therefore a company master. Anyone who argues against a company champion in the command squad is a peon and should be scorned. Scorn me for a peon, then. Whatever terminator squad takes an APO and/or a banna wava is his command squad. The idea that Bels is running around over here with (or without) his command squad, but his presence unlocks the company champion of some other (3rd? 4th? 5th?) company elsewhere on the battlefield is ludicrous. The idea is that the presence of the company master unlocks the champion of his own company. And wouldn't the champion of the deathwing wear TDA? You scorn-worthy peon... RAW, he doesn't unlock a company champion. Fluff-wise, any company champion that he did unlock (that of his own company) would wear TDA. You lose on both counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodle Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The squad Belial chooses to upgrade aren't described as a terminator command squad, simply a terminator squad with an apothecary and a banner. Whether it makes sense or not Belial certainly has access to a command squad and furthermore a company champion. They should be in TDA but they're not; the same awkward fluff problem that pops up all over the place. Edit: Thought I'd read it in the FAQ, was mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Vets can be good en-masse. I (used to, now CML DW rule supreme) use 10 vets with PW, 2PF, MG and all the rest with BP/CS. It's actually one of the most cost efficient units in our dex vs hordes. If you get the charge off. I don't play vs hordes much now so they rest on the shelf with the rest of the greenwing infantry. 2c stobz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Fluff considerations aside, by RAW Belial can't unlock the Champion. For that you need to field a 'Company Master' (which is a specific unit entry in the army army list). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddles Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 bah humbug! I supposed pure RAW its not possible. you can still take a regular command squad on top of his Upgraded Deathwing squad though. which is frankly, bizarre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Id go command squad and apothecary any day of the week.Plus the command squad doesnt take any slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy.P Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Just did some math, I can field 7 man vet squad. ( pf, 4pw, 1cc and 2 meltas in a rhino with a chappy) or the command squad as above. Now the command squad has 18 attacks (4 power weapons) with banner and fnp or the vets have 22 attacks (15 are power weapons) so I may go with the vets after all as they will mop up anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Vets have indeed more hitting power. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 bah humbug! I supposed pure RAW its not possible. you can still take a regular command squad on top of his Upgraded Deathwing squad though. which is frankly, bizarre It would make much more sense for Belial's "Command Squad" to be a genuine command squad, i.e. non-FOC slot HQ choice, but there you go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodle Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Just did some math, I can field 7 man vet squad. ( pf, 4pw, 1cc and 2 meltas in a rhino with a chappy) or the command squad as above. Now the command squad has 18 attacks (4 power weapons) with banner and fnp or the vets have 22 attacks (15 are power weapons) so I may go with the vets after all as they will mop up anything. With that Vet loadout you have a unit that is more expensive than a Terminator squad, while still being a lot weaker. Every model loss is going to really hurt on points but they die just as easily as tacticals. This leaves you to take on weaker to mid strength squads, something you don't want all that hitting power for. With four power weapons you will destroy a lot of squads in one round of combat but as a rule of thumb you want combat to last for two rounds. You engage on your turn and end combat on their turn; this prevents you being shot to bits after winning a combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy.P Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 If I put a terminator squad in that can rival the the amout of cc damage then a 5 man dual lc squad lead by a chappy would do that. How ever lack of models and more importantly how can they keep up with the landraider + Belial + command squad. Thats nealy 600 points. So I believe they are cheap for the damage + rerolls they get in cc. Ive wiped out 2 10 man grey hunters squad and a blood claw squad using this tactic before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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