Revisitng Necron wraith-wing at 1500

[trefenwyd]

Prepping for some local tourneys, several Necron players are running 1500 pt wraith-wings and tabling armies by turn 3. I have a lot of thoughts on how to mitigate this, but it's proving a tough nut to crack. I read some of the older threads here, but was wondering if there was any new thoughts on the matter.

 

Typical list:

Imotek w/Chrono cryptek (gives night fighting almost 85% guaranteed through 3+ turns) plus random Lord of the Storm S8 hits and 4+ steal initiative

Destroyer Lord, 2+ save, mindshackle scarabs, warscythe

3 x 6 wraiths (Destroyer Lord goes in one), 3 with whip coils

10 immortals (Imotek goes here)

5 warriors (objective sitting)

Annihiliation Barge

 

Issues that this list presents:

Night fighting allows his wraiths to avoid 1st turn long range fire, and since they have an 18" charge range, they'll probably only take one turn of fire before they are in combat.

 

18 wraiths are 36 wounds all with 3++, striking first in combat with whip coils (I know, there are ways to minimize troops that get hit by the whip coils, but for argument's sake, it's good to assume they strike first) with 24 S6 rending attacks. The Destroyer Lord adds his 2+ save and Mindshackle Scarabs into one of the units as well and gives the ability to crack AV 14 with his warscythe.

 

Typical counters:

Shoot the assulty guys right? Let's take gunline wolves (which I usually play). 5 missile launchers/lascannons will kill an average of 1 wraith per turn. 5 Heavy Bolters does the same. My 3 units of long fangs have now killed 3 of his 18 wraiths and will be receiving a charge turn 2. If I go first and sacrifice a rhino to searchlight him, I may have 2 turns in which to fire, but he still hits my units with 12 intact wraiths, or more if he plays smart wound allocation. Drop pod next to them? Even a 10 combi-melta drop pod unit only kills 2 wraiths, and is then charged and obliterated. Same for 10 combi-plasmas or 10 rapid-fire bolters, and all of those units cost a lot more than the wraiths they killed. Standard 'slow them down' tactics such as murderous hurricane, tempests wrath (and even JotWW) won't work vs. wraiths either. It is 'basically' impossible to shoot them enough to count on gun-line tactics, so cc is inevitable, which leads us to...

 

Kill them in assault? Vs. a normal 10 man GH squad, the wraiths will kill 5 GHs. The remaining members (including Power Fist) will kill an average of 2 wraiths. Grey Hunters lose. And that's if you run a full 10 man squad. MSU will get wiped before they even strike back.

 

15 Blood claws + Wolf Priest with preferred enemy vs. jump infantry is about the Wraith's worst nightmare. Even if the Blood Claws lose 6 members before striking at all, they should almost wipe the wraiths in return.

 

Thunderwolves are also a good counter to wraiths - they are slightly better in 'mathhammer' combat, but they cost a lot more. I can negate one of his wraith units with my thunderwolves, but that leaves two of his units free.

 

Unfortunately, while running 2x 15-man blood claw units + one Thunderwolf unit would probably tear wraithwing apart, it's going to lose against a vast majority of other armies out there.

 

My goal is to tweak my TAC tourney list to be able to handle wraith wing, not create a dedicated anti-wraith wing army (i.e., need to be able to handle ork horde, GK draigowing, etc). I usually run something like:

 

Rune Priest w/LL + MH

 

5 GH, melta/MotW/Standard in a rhino

5 GH, melta/MotW/Standard in a rhino

5 GH, melta/MotW/Standard in a rhino

 

10 Wolf Guard, 5 w/combi-melta + power fist (go in GH and scout squads), 5 combi-melta/bolt pistol in a drop pod

5 scouts + melta

5 scouts + melta

 

6 LFs, 3 Missiles, 2 lascannons

6 LFs, 3 Missiles, 2 lascannons

6 LFs, 2 Missiles, 3 HBs

 

My Rune Priest is almost useless in this list. MSU is a bad thing here. Scouts are almost useless (I can come in and wipe his objective sitting squad, but that's about it). For the first time in a long while, I'm looking at my standard list and going "I'm not sure I can take it to my opponent..." and thinking that I may need to revamp my TAC list for possible Necron encounters.

 

My goal in this post is not necessarily a new army list creation, but rather general units/tactis to counter the Wraithwing/Imotek at 1500 pts (where it is probably most effective). Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

[Wulfebane]

So.. why is it you're claiming JotWW won't work on them exactly? Personally, I'd take two Rune Priests with 2x JotWW over all those wolf guard and/or twc packs.

 

Also 3x 5man GH packs in rhinos? Why not load them into Razorbacks and unload heavy bolters into those wraith while you have them chasing you down in a merry game of cat and mouse.

[trefenwyd]

JotWW does not work on jump infantry . . . see other threads for more detailed explanation. Otherwise that would be the obvious counter and without a huge change to the list.

 

The razor vs. rhino debate is interesting, but not crucial to the wraithwing debate. I used to run razors, but I usually rush forwards with two of them while keeping the last one back and having my Rune Priest shoot out of a rhino hatch (gives me more targets to shoot at, and greater mobility for MH than if I keep him with a LF squad). Those two razors inevitably moved forwards and popped smoke turn 1 and then acted according to game flow thereafter. I found myself either 1) wanting to continue to move 12" (thus negating the HB firing opportunity) or 2) fire my melta against armor that my opponent was moving forwards (and would have to exit the razor to do so). By taking razors over rhinos, you 'force' yourself into a 6" move tactic which I found cumbersome. In a larger or just different list, I'll take razors if they are objective sitters - combination of las/plas, las, or HB as dictated by the rest of the list, but with this list, I need my 2 troops moving forwards to contest mid-level/enemy objectives and so I went with rhinos. Long explanation, but in short, upgrading to 2 HBs is a small tactical tweak that would have minimal impact on overall strategy or effectivness vs. wraithwing.

 

The game of cat/mouse you mention is good though. I've seen where some will advocate using bikes to kite wraiths, and this tactic could be done with bikes/razors/skyclaws, and I'm very familiar with kiting single units (my RP in a rhino using Murderous Hurricane vs. assault units), but I have yet to make an entire list that is designed for kiting and would be effective as a TAC list...

[Captain Idaho]

Jaws of the World Wolf won't affect jump infantry therefore Wraiths and Destroyer Lords are immune to it's effects. I don't know for definite whether it is a shooting attack in which case it can't be "fired" if the Rune Priest cannot see it's target unit, so potentially night fighting makes it even worse though I am entirely unsure on this. Regardless, jump infantry are safe from it's effects and it is the jump infantry that are causing the problems.

 

Honestly, I think it's time for players to stop going for the perceived most powerful army choice and change their armies to more balanced approaches. Space Wolves lists, which concentrate on tiny Grey Hunter Packs in Razorbacks and backed up by as many Long Fangs as possible, seem to have already met their match against ultra-fast Dark Eldar with Dark Lance spamage, Grey Knights and their super resilience Terminators and Paladins and now Wraith Wing armies.

 

Not trying to pick a fight, but in 40K each new Codex is kind of designed to have a powerful counter to the most powerful choice in the previous Codex books. It's the designers way of encouraging more balanced lists to be taken rather than the paper-rock-scissors tournament play that seems to be taking over.

 

Of course, the problem with their methodoldgy is the Codex books are not all made at once so there isn't a full circle where every Codex has elements which powerful against some armies and not others so players have to be balanced in their approach. There is also a problem in that the demographic of different Codex choices favoured by players is uneven.

 

Anyway, what I am leading to is you might be better served taking a more "traditional" Space Wolves list. Maybe take a couple full Grey Hunters squads, a 3rd Troops Choice consisting of a big Blood Claws squad or another Grey Hunter squad, back it up with a Long Fang pack and couple Dreads or Landspeeders, then throw in a Vindicator.

 

30 Rapid Firing Grey Hunters should make a bit of a mess of a Wraith squad or two, then they get counter attack in the ensuing assault. Before you launch the rapid fire attack, consider softening them up with fire from other units to even the odds.

 

Lastly, a counter charge from Grey Hunters and a Dreadnought will be harder to deal with for Wraiths weakened from fire (and not with a Destroyer Lord) because they can't swamp the Dreadnought and have to rely on rends to damage it. Not such an easy proposition when you have to attack models in base contact first. :rolleyes:

[Lord Ragnarok]

I don't know for definite whether it is a shooting attack in which case it can't be "fired" if the Rune Priest cannot see it's target unit, so potentially night fighting makes it even worse though I am entirely unsure on this.

 

 

From the FAQ

 

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?

Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,

impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf

requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of

sight to the first model that the power affects – in

effect he is treated as the target model; the power just

happens to hit everybody else on its way through

[Simo429]

Captian Idaho how is the razor spam list not balanced?

 

It generally has something something from each FOC choice. It has predominantly troop choices which is how it should be.

 

I certainly don't agree that you should change your list to deal with either Deldar or GK. The fact that you talk about resiliant terminators and paladins leads you to think of more long range fire power not less which is what would happen if you swapped out lasplas for rhinos.

 

In all I don't think your post is well thought out it just smacks of someone hating on the meta.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

It gets taken down really, really fast by Grey Knights. The Ven Dreads are pretty much taking down a Razorback every turn each, so that's a lot of dead Razorbacks. And half of them are Venerable, so your Long Fangs aren't going to be doing enough, especially since they ignore 1's and 2's as long as they pass a LD 10 roll.

 

On Wraiths, I went up against the guy who would win the whole tournament for my first round of the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre. He slaughtered me. The problem is, they can just keep back behind a hill with the entire army except the Command Barges, Wraiths, and Annihilation Barges, and still crush you. The Wraiths are just so fast that they can jump all over the board at will, while the Annihilation Barges pop/stun transports, and the Command Barges whack Long Fangs and Rhinos. Oddly, there were two Necron players at the event, I got paired with both, and lost to both, though the last one came down to one die roll to decide the game.

[Captain Idaho]

Captian Idaho how is the razor spam list not balanced?

 

By having infantry who are weak and vulnerable once a Razorback is destroyed. It is entirely reliant of firepower and survivability from vehicles.

 

Of course, a Razor-spam is a definite powerful thing to face down, especially for some armies. Against Imperial Guard, Grey Knights or Dark Eldar, it often struggles. For a relevant example, I've seen (and played against) a Space Wolf army in a tournament which did the Razor-Long Fang spam thing, and it dominated the Space Marines armies it went up against until it come against a Paladin themed Grey Knight list which overwhelmed it with fast moving Dreadknights and a Draigo enhanced full Paladin squad - then it was thrashed leaving the Space Wolf player feeling deflated.

 

Essentially, you run the risk of falling into a paper-rock-scissors environment by taking an unbalanced army.

 

A word on the meaning of the term "Balanced"

 

I think we are confusing the terms balanced in our interpretation. I would deem a balanced list one which ticks as many boxes as possible in it's application on the table; it can assault, shoot at range and close up, has sufficient numbers and survivability and yet has mobility.

 

A Razor-spam might take choices from each portion of the Force Organisation Chart, but that doesn't make it balance. It's the role on the table of each unit combined which makes the list a balanced list.

 

In all I don't think your post is well thought out it just smacks of someone hating on the meta.

 

:rolleyes:

 

No, I am a avid tournament player. I've seen the "meta" and understand that to win tournaments over a long period you need to remove yourself as far from it as possible. The players which can do everything a balanced list can generally have better success.

 

 

I will acknowledge, as I did mention earlier, the flaws of GW policy of encouraging balanced lists has made it so there is a top army (flavour of the month so to speak) because the counter hasn't been produced yet. I believe the most extreme Codex books in this regard are the Blood Angels who don't seem to have a solid counter to their Predator-Baal-Razorback lists just yet. Except maybe gun line Imperial Guard but they aren't so popular since so many other armies trump that.

 

All I'm saying is I believe the Space Wolves have now had their "counters" in the 40K release schedule, and I believe they need to go towards a different approach to compensate.

[trefenwyd]

@ Idaho,

 

Thanks for your comments - I didn't view it as picking a fight. Army/list evolution is part of the game, and one of the draws for me. I started Wolves running 10-man squads, then evolved into smaller and smaller units for various reasons - it may be time to beef back up. And I am in no way shape or form committed to a certain style of army - I've run 'tourney-syle' Long Fang wolves as well as full-mech, bike deathstar, podding, etc. As soon as I win a few times with a certain army composition, it's time to mix it up and try something new. And I have no doubts that as time goes on, the Wolf codex will be less and less powerful vis-a-vis the other races; but no less enjoyable to play (hopefully).

 

A full GH squad with standard on counterattack needs to have the wraith squad reduced to 4 before the wraiths charge in order to 'statistically' tie combat, and that may be the way to go...

[Simo429]

They ignore 1's and 2's as long as you aren't nullifying that psychic power.

 

I have faced psyfleman spam on 2 occasions at tournaments, yes they are nasty but they aren't the death of razorspam.

I'd also go as far as saying that its a myth that razorspam is the go to army for most space wolf players. There were 6 this weekend at the UKGt I'd say not 50% were razorspam.

 

I'm not sure how many wraith-wing armies you will see at tournaments becuase of the amount of GK armies at tournaments. Instant death is going to cause them a lot of problems.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure how many wraith-wing armies you will see at tournaments becuase of the amount of GK armies at tournaments. Instant death is going to cause them a lot of problems.

 

Definitely, all those Strength 5 Storm Bolters and Psycannons aren't nice either!

 

A full GH squad with standard on counterattack needs to have the wraith squad reduced to 4 before the wraiths charge in order to 'statistically' tie combat, and that may be the way to go...

 

True, but winning and drawing combats isn't always the necessary action. If you have to sacrifice 20 Grey Hunters to defeat 18 Wraiths (either direcltly or weakening them up sufficiently) then you are onto a winner anyway.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

They ignore 1's and 2's as long as you aren't nullifying that psychic power.

 

I have faced psyfleman spam on 2 occasions at tournaments, yes they are nasty but they aren't the death of razorspam.

I'd also go as far as saying that its a myth that razorspam is the go to army for most space wolf players. There were 6 this weekend at the UKGt I'd say not 50% were razorspam.

 

I'm not sure how many wraith-wing armies you will see at tournaments becuase of the amount of GK armies at tournaments. Instant death is going to cause them a lot of problems.

 

I wouldn't say it causes too many problems. The Wraiths have a 3++ save, and they're normally wound allocated to insanity, so it's just very hard to get anything on them. They're pretty much the new TH/SS Terminators.

 

And yeah, I haven't really been seeing that much Razorspam recently. Most Wolf players tend to run Rhinos, in my experience. Of course, the Wolf population seems to be dying down in general, so that may bring new changes. Actually, on that subject, have you been noticing a decline of Space Wolf players?

[Simo429]

They ignore 1's and 2's as long as you aren't nullifying that psychic power.

 

I have faced psyfleman spam on 2 occasions at tournaments, yes they are nasty but they aren't the death of razorspam.

I'd also go as far as saying that its a myth that razorspam is the go to army for most space wolf players. There were 6 this weekend at the UKGt I'd say not 50% were razorspam.

 

I'm not sure how many wraith-wing armies you will see at tournaments becuase of the amount of GK armies at tournaments. Instant death is going to cause them a lot of problems.

 

I wouldn't say it causes too many problems. The Wraiths have a 3++ save, and they're normally wound allocated to insanity, so it's just very hard to get anything on them. They're pretty much the new TH/SS Terminators.

 

And yeah, I haven't really been seeing that much Razorspam recently. Most Wolf players tend to run Rhinos, in my experience. Of course, the Wolf population seems to be dying down in general, so that may bring new changes. Actually, on that subject, have you been noticing a decline of Space Wolf players?

Instant death causing GK's reduce the amount of wound allocation shennanigans surely.

Yes I have noticed a reduction in Space Wolf armies and I expect it even more with the coming of 6th and chaos legions and black templars anticipated.

[Matt D]

to the OP.

this might be a great time to break out the good old whirlwind! its going to hit a lot and force him to make saves. AP does not matter since he has a 3++ and its cheap! my buddy play necrons a lot (well used to till i started pummeling him now he beats me with GK) and i have found its all about saturation. if he did not spread his models out the full 2" apart i was ripping him a new one. just adding 1 WW and dropping your last long fang squad may help quite a bit.

 

to Captain Idaho.

you basically describe how i try to build my lists. its nice to know there are others who feel the same (not saying all you wolf brothers don't :D ). I have to know though... do you follow Paul Atriedis?

[Wardiel]

Any man that raises a hand against House Atreides will have it cut off by me as a prelude to his death.

 

Paraphrased, but still an awesome line. Good ol' Gurney Halleck.

 

On topic, while I haven't played against a Wraithwing (which sounds quite scary tbh) the idea of a WW might be a good one, weight of fire is the best way to deal with invulnerable saves, and they'd be a safe way of dumping wounds on them.

 

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out, if nothing else, we'll all learn from your mistakes :lol:

[Matt D]

Any man that raises a hand against House Atreides will have it cut off by me as a prelude to his death.

 

Paraphrased, but still an awesome line. Good ol' Gurney Halleck.

 

On topic, while I haven't played against a Wraithwing (which sounds quite scary tbh) the idea of a WW might be a good one, weight of fire is the best way to deal with invulnerable saves, and they'd be a safe way of dumping wounds on them.

 

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out, if nothing else, we'll all learn from your mistakes :lol:

good to know people get the refernce

 

on topic. i know the missiles will do plates to but since they're small you may only hit 2 40mm bases. i am a fan of having at least one of each type of plate in my army. it forces your opponent to deploy differently. the big thing with my friend is the tough choice of spreading out (and thin. meaning less units in rang on the charge and bottle-necking other units) or bunching them on the edge of the deployment line and letting me get tons of wounds!

[jmurph]

So there are 5 scoring models? Objectives would be rough...

 

Space wolves re-roll night fight distance, so that helps some. Also, searchlights are standard, so rhinos can roll up, target with lights then stuff opens fire.

 

3++ is very nasty. Especially when they are fast. MSU could really struggle against this list.

 

Is there any reason not to ring your LFs with GHs and rhinos to funnel charges while you light them up with fire? The right Psyker power can also slow them down, even if terrain won't. The key to taking down any += saves is massed fire. Wraiths are T4, yes? So any missiles/PFists that get through the save will be autokilling. They don't have unique wargear other than the coils (unless they are taking particle casters), so they cannot do much for clever wound allocation. The Lord's unit can allocate to him, but not the other two. Removing numbers makes a big difference to their combat effectiveness. 6 wraiths charging a GH pack is bad news. 3 not so much.

 

Massed fire is what you need to bring them down. 18 bolter shots produce 6 wounds on average or 2 after saves- 1 dead wraith. Spreading it around helps but doesn't- it makes it more likely a coil wraith goes down. And remember that if an ID wound hits, he has to remove a whole unwounded model from the group if possible.

 

Concentrate on depleting unit's combat effectiveness and try to engage only 1 wraith unit at a time.

 

As to tournament viability, Tyranids would be a bear for this style list as would DE (massed shots followed by lots of attacks in CC).

[Captain Idaho]

to Captain Idaho.

you basically describe how i try to build my lists. its nice to know there are others who feel the same (not saying all you wolf brothers don't :D ). I have to know though... do you follow Paul Atriedis?

 

A good Idaho follows an Atreides to his death, though doesn't tolerate any broken codes of honour.

 

You'd be surprised who can win tournaments despite having supposed sub-par army lists. I should have been top Space Marines player on generalship at recent ToS tournaments but lost out narrowly because of super-sportsman awards (dem's the breaks) whilst I've seen a Tau and Tyranid player at the same events win EVERY GAME against all the top tier armies, and a Sisters of Battle player who even frequents this forum actually won 4 out of 5 games and won overall!

 

Great minds think alike matey! ;)

[Simo429]

to Captain Idaho.

you basically describe how i try to build my lists. its nice to know there are others who feel the same (not saying all you wolf brothers don't :D ). I have to know though... do you follow Paul Atriedis?

 

A good Idaho follows an Atreides to his death, though doesn't tolerate any broken codes of honour.

 

You'd be surprised who can win tournaments despite having supposed sub-par army lists. I should have been top Space Marines player on generalship at recent ToS tournaments but lost out narrowly because of super-sportsman awards (dem's the breaks) whilst I've seen a Tau and Tyranid player at the same events win EVERY GAME against all the top tier armies, and a Sisters of Battle player who even frequents this forum actually won 4 out of 5 games and won overall!

 

Great minds think alike matey! ;)

ToS is not the basis for a competetive list. I should have been the same for Space Wolves winning 4 out of 5 games and yet the week before I came 100th out of 110 at Caledonian open. ToS is a campaign weekend, a fun one at that but it is not a tournament.

[Captain Idaho]

to Captain Idaho.

you basically describe how i try to build my lists. its nice to know there are others who feel the same (not saying all you wolf brothers don't :lol: ). I have to know though... do you follow Paul Atriedis?

 

A good Idaho follows an Atreides to his death, though doesn't tolerate any broken codes of honour.

 

You'd be surprised who can win tournaments despite having supposed sub-par army lists. I should have been top Space Marines player on generalship at recent ToS tournaments but lost out narrowly because of super-sportsman awards (dem's the breaks) whilst I've seen a Tau and Tyranid player at the same events win EVERY GAME against all the top tier armies, and a Sisters of Battle player who even frequents this forum actually won 4 out of 5 games and won overall!

 

Great minds think alike matey! :wub:

ToS is not the basis for a competetive list. I should have been the same for Space Wolves winning 4 out of 5 games and yet the week before I came 100th out of 110 at Caledonian open. ToS is a campaign weekend, a fun one at that but it is not a tournament.

 

I would dispute it purely on the basis of some of the players I've been against and seen. A good player with a tough army to crack is a good player with a tough army to crack! Besides, it was just an example; I've been to other tournaments and the trend I've discussed has been even more pronouced as those hard and fast games take no prisoners and therefore the paper-rock-scissors gaming a MSU Long Fangs list has been shoe-horned into is more likely to struggle.

 

I do actually understand where you are coming from though; some players at ToS are quite soft gamers (in a good way - we all play for different reasons) and not all results are going to be so tough. What I should have done (and I beg your pardon for the confusion) is explain the venue I was describing was a place with a myriad total amount of armies to face, of which several were very powerful.

[Vantius]

So there are 5 scoring models? Objectives would be rough...

 

Space wolves re-roll night fight distance, so that helps some. Also, searchlights are standard, so rhinos can roll up, target with lights then stuff opens fire.

 

3++ is very nasty. Especially when they are fast. MSU could really struggle against this list.

 

Is there any reason not to ring your LFs with GHs and rhinos to funnel charges while you light them up with fire? The right Psyker power can also slow them down, even if terrain won't. The key to taking down any += saves is massed fire. Wraiths are T4, yes? So any missiles/PFists that get through the save will be autokilling. They don't have unique wargear other than the coils (unless they are taking particle casters), so they cannot do much for clever wound allocation. The Lord's unit can allocate to him, but not the other two. Removing numbers makes a big difference to their combat effectiveness. 6 wraiths charging a GH pack is bad news. 3 not so much.

 

Massed fire is what you need to bring them down. 18 bolter shots produce 6 wounds on average or 2 after saves- 1 dead wraith. Spreading it around helps but doesn't- it makes it more likely a coil wraith goes down. And remember that if an ID wound hits, he has to remove a whole unwounded model from the group if possible.

 

Concentrate on depleting unit's combat effectiveness and try to engage only 1 wraith unit at a time.

 

As to tournament viability, Tyranids would be a bear for this style list as would DE (massed shots followed by lots of attacks in CC).

 

These are excellent tips. Obviously the wraith-wing is difficult to counter with list building, so a strong tactical plan is your best bet, IMO.

[Simo429]

I would dispute it purely on the basis of some of the players I've been against and seen. A good player with a tough army to crack is a good player with a tough army to crack! Besides, it was just an example; I've been to other tournaments and the trend I've discussed has been even more pronouced as those hard and fast games take no prisoners and therefore the paper-rock-scissors gaming a MSU Long Fangs list has been shoe-horned into is more likely to struggle.

 

I do actually understand where you are coming from though; some players at ToS are quite soft gamers (in a good way - we all play for different reasons) and not all results are going to be so tough. What I should have done (and I beg your pardon for the confusion) is explain the venue I was describing was a place with a myriad total amount of armies to face, of which several were very powerful.

I wouldn't call the list a paper, scissors, stone list.

 

This is one of the few match ups that it will really struggle with and there aren't that many that it really dominates. Its not a point and win army like pure leafblower was at some point. I think its the definition of a top tier good list. Its not overly heavy on anyone area. Fluff dictates you should have a core of troops which the list is.

 

As for building non competitive lists and winning. Certainly can be done, look at last weeks UKGT, a tau player won it, a very good 40k player no less but still Tau but that certainly is a paper, scissors, stone list. These Tau armies are being built to do one thing, beat Grey Knights.

[Iacton Qruze]

@ OP: The gist is that you're looking for volume of fire over strength of fire, something you won't really find in a MSU build. I've seen a lot of necrons spring up at my LGS, though it's a mix of Imotek, Wraiths, and Scarab swarms.

 

Due to night fighting, your volume of fire you're looking for is bolters/heavy bolters, but more importantly, he wants you in combat, so meet him there; blood claws and fen wolves. Grab yourself a cheap TWL or TWBL to lead a big pack of wolves. A few wolves will hit the whip coils and get reduced, but all the ones that filed in behind and aren't btb will strike first. with the range of Cav, reserve the unit, and when his wraiths come in close, you come in from reserve and meet him wherever he is. Buy a pair of wargear wolves for your TWL, and use those to minimize return damage from wraiths.

 

A pack of 15 Fen Wolves is a bargain at 120 points in this situation, since you aren't throwing away too much on a one-trick pony unit.

 

If you want to throw the WL into the gauntlet, give him a fist and a storm shield, and pit him against a whip coil wraith; when he finally gets to swing, you're looking at roughly 4 ID saves, which could really break the combat in your favor.

[Matt D]

i just happened to think that since WW do not need line of sight that they don't care about night fight at all... sorry if it sounds like i am beating a dead horse, i am just writing as this stuff comes to me.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Thunderwolves are definitely going to be making a resurgence with this. You've got a unit that can stand up to Wraiths in close combat, and even hurt them, as well as being relatively fast through fleet and the 12" charge range. Plus, they've got a fair chance of stomping through Necrons, as long as you don't hit a mindshackle scarab, and would possibly be able to get Imotekh, if you haven't Jaws'ed him already.