More Prospero Burns revelations...

[Max_Dammit]

It could have been that Russ fought with the 1st in the great crusade but those times are gone and past, there is no Leman Russ to fight next to, so there is no bigger honor above your own pack/great company.

 

the structure of a normal company does not exist, you dont have to be in the 1st to wear TDA, i doubt this was even true in the time Russ was among his wolves.

As far as i can see every legion worked like that, a small army on its own with TDA wearing next to normal marines all in the same company.

 

It was Roboute who thought it would be fantastic to have people be part of the elite and wear the number 1 to show of.

And look how great that worked out, losing all your veterans in one go was a fantastic plan.

[Blacksad]

I seem to recall reading something about wolf lords fighting eachother in friendly competition every year. it would seem acceptable to me that the results of those matches decided the ranks of the appropriate compagnies...

[Chodjinn]

I'm with eyeslikethunder and max dammit as well.

 

Space Wolves are nothing like a Codex chapter, so there is little point in any comparison.

 

12 Great Companies, each like an independant warband within the Chapter as a whole. Each Great Company has it's own leader (Jarl/Lord), specialities and probably structure (Ragnar's is heavily blood claw/grey hunters in Drop formations, some will be heavily mechanised, some will be heavily wolfy like Bran Redmaw's company etc etc). The fluff has shown that certain companies will be used to perform certain objectives in a fistfight.

 

One of these Great Companies is under the Great Wolf, who also takes charge of all Dreadnoughts and Priests (Rune, Wolf, Iron).

 

The 'veterans' of any company/pack are kept within the individual company as the Jarl's bodyguards and pack leaders, aka Wolf Guard.

 

And as far as I am aware, the Wolves only used company 'numbers' Pre-Heresy, and they were just that, numbers to identify the Company. Nothing to do with rank or structure really, by Russ! Why would you need it?! :devil:

 

Good thread by the way, I like reading this sorta stuff, keeps me coming back here.

[Marshal Rohr]

Company numbers seemed to be an part of the earrior's identity in PB. Bear and so on were proud to be part of Tra. The comparison with codex chapters isnt about organization, its about esprit de corps and being proud to be part of that units. Its an entirely appropriate comparison.

[Spinsanity]

Strangely enough, I was always under the impression that the Wolves continued to assign company numbers to each of the 12 13 companies... My understanding, ever since the Grand Annulus image was first published, was that the company numbers would go clockwise around the circle, going from Bran's 1st to the lost 13th, with others falling in-between the two (thus Logan's would be the 5th and Ragnar's the 10th). This would also match the ordering that was presented in the current codex, which lists companies in order of appearance around the Annulus.

 

Unfortunately, this apparently doesn't match what was written in Mymeara FW book regarding Redmaw's company, which has put the rest of that theory to shreds, but I'll still share it nonetheless just so those more learned in the wolves background can disprove this theory (for example, I seem to recall that the Great Wolf is the oldest standing wolf, appart from Ulrik; however, is there any mention in old fluff of just how long he's been the Great Wolf/when he was appointed to the position of Wolf Lord?)

 

I had recently begun to wonder if the actual company "numbers" might reflect the age of the company, in that Redmaw might, of the 12 standing Wolf Lords, be the one who has been holding the title the longest (which could e xplain why he has, since, been marked by the wulfen). Then we have Krakendoom, Morkai and Red Moon, who could very well be old veterans (Gunnar Red Moon sure sounds like he's no youngling). If that theory held any truth, we'd have Ragnar's, Bloodhowl's and Grimblood's as the three "youngest" Wolf Lords (regarding the time when they were appointed to the position, not necessarily actual age), which, in addition to matching Ragnar's reputation as a very young Lord, would explain the rivalry between the two youngest (according to this theory) Lords/companies who still feel they have to prove themselves to the older companies.

 

+ Edit : Had this held any more weight, we could thus have assumed that when a company changed leadership, the Lord's stone was removed from the Annulus (which IS true, iirc, right?) and the ones that were ranked between it and the 13th rotated forward (counter-clockwise), the newly appointed Lord's stone then being fit in the now vacant 12th's position...

 

+ 2nd Edit : Alright, nevermind, rereading the SW timeline in the latest codex, I just realised this doesn't work... Ragnar was appointed Wolf Lord in 983.M41 and there is reference to Sven Bloodhowl in 853.M41... I still think the companies are numbered around the Annulus though, just unsure why FW said Redmaw's was the 12th instead of the 1st...

 

Thoughts?

[Grimtooth]

I think people are getting their power armor panties in a bunch due to misunderstanding my original post.

 

This thread is not me asking,

 

"Boo hoo, why don't the Space Wolves have a Veteran 1st Company?"

 

This thread is based upon observations in Prospero Burns that has the jarls of certain companies appearing to follow the orders and defer leadership to the Jarl of Un. In fact, the Jarl of Un is referred to not just as Jarl Gunn, but actually Lord Gunn.

 

By those observations, it appears that there was indeed a "veteran 1st Company" type of structure within the VI Legion with which the other companies did defer leadership and respect. This could have been the eldest jarl at the time or Russ' favored company. Whatever the rationale, it appears that there was indeed that type of structure present.

 

Now in the time frame of the HH, we indeed have precedent that the 1st Company of many of the Legions were veterans with the most experience and held in high regard. There are many times in the series that when a Primarch goes to meet another Primarch, they are accompanied by the 1st Company captains who then meet their counterparts. Very dog and pony show, but then it is reflected in what battles we have been able to read about.

 

So back to the original point of it not being about,

 

"Boo hoo, the Wolves don't have a 1st Company."

 

With everything being, "As Russ intended" and "We learn by doing and remembering, not writing", it is about,

 

"Which current Great Company is considered the Wolves "1st Company"?"

 

As I think about it more and more, I am gonna go with it being Logan Grimnar's own Great Company. Thinking about when a wolf lord is elevated to the Great Wolf, he does still keep the company he has been a member of for his entire life. If the Great Wolf is chosen from all the wolf lords for his experience, sagas, etc, and etc then it stands to reason that said Great Company is just as experienced, saga worthy, etc, and etc among the other Great Company's.

[Karack Blackstone]

Brother Ramses,

 

I stand by my points in my post at the bottom of the first page. That we don't have a 1st is largely moot. What we do have, as the theme seems to have continued on, is the tradition of the Wolf Lord that becomes Great Wolf keeping his current Great Company and adding the Great Wolf's Company (Dreads, Priests, etc.) to their personal Great Company, and having the discretion to send out these units to other Great Companies to aid them in their service to the Imperium and Humanity.

 

That in time this tradition was formed more than likely by what happened to Bjorn (conjecture, yes), and is continued as it is what the Vlka Fenryka know as far as their history, so that's what they do, because it was done.

 

My opinion on the numbers for the Great Companies is still that there's some ritual that decides them based upon the order of the returning Wolf Lords. I'm still looking for this in Battle of the Fang, but it's something that might be in a Codex if I can't find it in there.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

By default, whoever is the Great Wolf's company is the 'first' company.

And he gets all the Priests, Dreads, etc. at his call.

 

Which can lead to a situation where the 'first' company has fewer Wolf Guard than another company, because it is the Wolf Lord who is called to the station and not his Great Company, thereby not satisfying the Codex version of having a fully l33t First Company. As though that were a problem for Fenrisians ;) :D

[Grimtooth]

By default, whoever is the Great Wolf's company is the 'first' company.

And he gets all the Priests, Dreads, etc. at his call.

 

Which can lead to a situation where the 'first' company has fewer Wolf Guard than another company, because it is the Wolf Lord who is called to the station and not his Great Company, thereby not satisfying the Codex version of having a fully l33t First Company. As though that were a problem for Fenrisians ;) :)

 

I had a picture on my old harddrive that had a picture of the compostion of the Great Wolf's Company and it had the full complement of Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, and Long Fangs listed in addition to the dreads and preisthood. It looked to be old 3rd edition due to lack of any of the new units, but I do think whichever wolf lord is elevated to Great Wolf, his company goes with him and becomes the Wolves version of a first company.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I had a picture on my old harddrive that had a picture of the compostion of the Great Wolf's Company and it had the full complement of Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, and Long Fangs listed in addition to the dreads and preisthood. It looked to be old 3rd edition due to lack of any of the new units, but I do think whichever wolf lord is elevated to Great Wolf, his company goes with him and becomes the Wolves version of a first company.

 

Yes.

 

What I was trying to say was the Lord is called to be the Great Wolf, and his Company follows him. He is who must be qualified, and whether his Great Company is the strongest, or weakest, is not a condition on the Wolf Lord become the Great Wolf.

 

And he gets control of the Dreads, etc.

[Grimtooth]

I had a picture on my old harddrive that had a picture of the compostion of the Great Wolf's Company and it had the full complement of Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, and Long Fangs listed in addition to the dreads and preisthood. It looked to be old 3rd edition due to lack of any of the new units, but I do think whichever wolf lord is elevated to Great Wolf, his company goes with him and becomes the Wolves version of a first company.

 

Yes.

 

What I was trying to say was the Lord is called to be the Great Wolf, and his Company follows him. He is who must be qualified, and whether his Great Company is the strongest, or weakest, is not a condition on the Wolf Lord become the Great Wolf.

 

And he gets control of the Dreads, etc.

 

However with the Great Companies being representative of their respective wolf lords in terms of tactics and composition, it stands to reason that if the wolf lord is elected to the Great Wolf by his peers, his great company would also be highly regarded among their peers.

[Grimtooth]

Another Prospero Burns revelation that I thought of today.

 

Despite all the accusations of the Fenrisian shamans being nothing more then finger wagglers, when Kasper first falls to Fenris after being shot down, they nailed it pretty good as him being a bad star and touched by malficarum. as readers, we only find out much later the extent of Kaspers link to the maleficarum, but from the beginning the Fenrisian shamans somehow knew.

[hendrik]

i think that's a nice discovery however i think every guy crashing down on fenris would be seen as a bad star and touched by malficarum. remember the fenrisians are kept in their feral state, with almost no if no influences from the 40k universe. If 1000 years ago some humanoid looking creature landed here on earth, speaking a weird but understandable version of your local tongue i'm pretty sure he'd be described as a bad star/omen and touched by malficarum aswell, even if the person in question is free from malficarum

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Another Prospero Burns revelation that I thought of today.

 

Despite all the accusations of the Fenrisian shamans being nothing more then finger wagglers, when Kasper first falls to Fenris after being shot down, they nailed it pretty good as him being a bad star and touched by malficarum. as readers, we only find out much later the extent of Kaspers link to the maleficarum, but from the beginning the Fenrisian shamans somehow knew.

 

i thought that myself...the backwards, primitive fenrisians accurately called out Kasper and his connection to the Maleficarum. certainly validates the Wolves approach to things.

 

and i think the Wolves themselves knew of Kasper's link the entire time, and had to slowly break into. It would make sense if they were showing Magnus (who they thought sent him) just how brutal the Wolves were throughout the entire book.

 

WLK

[Chodjinn]

This thread is based upon observations in Prospero Burns that has the jarls of certain companies appearing to follow the orders and defer leadership to the Jarl of Un. In fact, the Jarl of Un is referred to not just as Jarl Gunn, but actually Lord Gunn.

 

Have you thought that Lord Gunn might just be the highest ranking or Russ' favorite of all Lords/Jarls? Bear in mind that Russ was still around, to lead the Wolves, therefore no requirement for a Great Wolf at that time. But he may still have required a Lord of Lords, as such, hence 'Lord Gunn' rather than the normal 'Jarl Gunn'.

 

I still don't think it has any bearing on company numbers.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

This thread is based upon observations in Prospero Burns that has the jarls of certain companies appearing to follow the orders and defer leadership to the Jarl of Un. In fact, the Jarl of Un is referred to not just as Jarl Gunn, but actually Lord Gunn.

 

Have you thought that Lord Gunn might just be the highest ranking or Russ' favorite of all Lords/Jarls? Bear in mind that Russ was still around, to lead the Wolves, therefore no requirement for a Great Wolf at that time. But he may still have required a Lord of Lords, as such, hence 'Lord Gunn' rather than the normal 'Jarl Gunn'.

 

I still don't think it has any bearing on company numbers.

 

A Jarl is a Lord - a very senior one :)

[mactire]

just my two cents worth.

 

i think it makes sense for the great companies to be numbered, when a jarl or lord dies the company elect a new one from his wolf guard, the company name would then change as would the heraldry according to the codex, this would leave the number as the only constant to identify the individual companies to either outsiders or even the rout itself as often this change could happen on service.

i agree with eyeslikethunder in that i dont think the numbers represent any seniority or extra honor this is evident in the way a new greatwolf is chosen from the remaining jarls. this is based on the best for the legion not just the oldest warrior ie. ragnar.

 

going by the codex i like to think that the jarls and companies are as follows

 

redmaw - onn

krakendoom - twa

morkai - tra

red moon - for

grimnar - fyf (lord grimnar,jarl of fyf and great wolf of the vlka fenryka)

deathwolf - sesc

stormwolf - sepp

iron wolf - for-twa

dragongaze - tra-tra

blackmane - dekk

bloodhowl - dekk-onn ???

grimblood - twa-sesc/for-tra ???

 

i am willing to accept that i am wrong but for my self i will be collecting the company of erik morkai, jarl of tra. :P