Point-Efficiency in C: BA

[Morticon]

INTRODUCTION

 

Id like to share a theory regarding the BA codex that I have been considering for a while now .

Although it can be applied to various other codicies, the discussion and it's ideas pertain mainly to its application in the BA dex.

 

I'd like to add all relevant disclaimers ahead of time by saying that this isn't my proposal of what is "strongest", "best" or "unbeatable" in the BA codex. I think the external factors are way too complicated to make over-arching statements like that. Issues of local meta, player/opponent skill and list build are all factors that can greatly influence the competitiveness of a list.

 

What this theory aims to highlight is how certain units can be made more efficient in terms of the points they cost in relation to their potential battlefield role.

 

 

STARTING HANDICAP

 

This theory is based on a particularly factor intrinsic to Space Marines as an army choice; Namely, that in comparison to other bare-bones Troop units they're closer to a jack of all trades, master of none.

 

DA, BA and C: SM Space Marines generally come in at around 16 points per model for your usual guy - For BA, 18 For assault marines. With that associated cost we're considerably taxed in comparison to say an orky boy at a third of the cost, or at the same price a Chaos marine with more attacks (but other notable disadvantages) or a Wolfy with more abilities and attacks for the price - and we won't even talk about GKs!

 

Your minimum costs for troops are:

 

5 Scouts- 75 points

5 Tacticals- 90 points

5 Assault Marines- 100 points

 

 

Now, these units arguably do nothing by themselves without any costed upgrades (ironically aside from the scouts who can get sniper rifles for free and form some sort of a cheap battlefield role of sniper support and objective claiming).

 

The Tacticals have bolters - and are slow so really do nothing by themselves.

The Jumpers - although blessed with an extra attack and some mobility are at the end of the day "only" Space Marines- And 5 marines with no upgrades have a very, very limited role.

So, in order to have a unit that actually does something and plays an integral part in the battle, said unit needs to be upgraded somehow.

 

For many BA players there has been a swing towards what is generally considered the most points effective unit - a heavy Razorback Assault Squad.

 

 

MAKING BETTER USE OF THE POINTS

 

Why effective?

For many players, the 35point bonus our Assault marines provide sans their backpacks is reason enough to make use of this squad.

A bare-bones Tactical marine squad with a heavy razor ("Heavy" refers to Assault Cannon, Twin Plas or Twin Las variants) comes in at 180 points, while a bare-bones Assault squad (with one more attack each) comes in at 155. It's really not difficult to see why this is a staple.

 

However, many players fall into the trap of only partially playing to this unit's strengths.

 

What I mean by this is that too many players will not factor in that they are paying 155 points for what will essentially be a mobile, scoring gun platform - an inefficient use of points in many cases

 

Why?

 

Well, what is this unit's battlefield role?

155 points is paid for the heavy weapon and its fast ability -but what of the squad inside? What do they do? Just score?

I would like to put forward that this is a very inefficient use of the points we're paying and severely limits that unit's battlefield role and as a result limits the general's ability to react to unforeseen, difficult or unlucky situations.

 

In very certain lists/builds, this concept can be generally workable ( Example Here ). But too often players are not effectively using the remainder of the points (beyond the cost of the razor!)

The example above uses the concept that the Razor squads will provide shooty support along with the other shooty elements to greatly reduce the fighting capabilities of the units before the hammer units (the SG) swoop in to clean up.

 

However, here is something to consider: You are paying 10 points for a Meltagun upgrade in each of those squads - boosting your points to 165 for that unit.

Question: When and under what conditions will you use that Melta-gun?

Answer: When you get out of the razor.

 

This happens under two conditions:

1. You get them out voluntarily to make use of the meltagun.

2. You have to get them out since their transport is blown up.

 

From this point you have 2 options with the squad.

 

1. Use the melta gun and the bodies,

2. Hide the men and hope to save the KP or Claim an objective later.

 

If your option is 2 then, once again, I believe you may be using 110 points incredibly poorly.

 

FURTHER INEFFICIENCIES 1

 

If you include a priest into your list - a unit that gives you FNP and FC, you're paying a bare minimum of 50 points.

Would it not make much more sense to get those 5men into combat to actually make use of the points spent? The alternative is having them charged. Why let yourself get charged/chased down/shot up?

Following on with this thinking would it not make much more sense if you have a priest in your list, to equip a unit like a 5man Razor squad with a Power Weapon? I maintain it is.

 

This allows you the opportunity to put the full 125 points (with PW+MG) into use. Whether or not you actually get to use the PW may, of course, be a factor. However, I would be much happier "wasting" 15points, than wasting 110 points.

 

In the event you're playing a list without a priest, making use of the above concept in which you dont intend getting out and merely intend shooting and scooting, is fine. Mildly inefficient, but unarguably effective thanks to the additional firepower you can fit in.

 

EG: A 1750 Shooty Counter List

 

Mephy (or a Libby with Shield/Rage for the DC squad and then another Baal/Attack Bike squad)

10 DC - 1 PF, 1TH, 1PW

Rhino

 

5 RAS

Razor - Heavy

5 RAS

Razor - Heavy

5 RAS

Razor - Heavy

5 RAS

Razor - Heavy

 

Baal - HBSS

3 Attack Bikes- 2MM, 1HB

 

Pred - Las sponsons

Pred - Las sponsons

 

FURTHER INEFFICIENCIES 2

 

Carrying on with the topic of "Further Inefficiencies" we look at the Priest.

 

Here is an interesting topic on the debate surrounding whether or not to upgrade: Priest Upgrades?

 

I will maintain that a priest should almost always have a PW or LC upgrade.

 

Arguments against this largely boil down to two issues:

 

1. Wound Stacking May occur.

2. Priests can be singled out in combat.

 

I maintain that while wound stacking may occur, a definite kill is better than no kill. Also, a 5man squad with 1special and a PW sarge is likely to do 3 regular wounds and maybe 2 power weapon wounds at FC stats to MEQ. Throw in a priest to that charging squad and suddenly you have 2 more PW wounds. So only 7 wounds in total. If you're fighting a smaller squad -great more definite kills. If you're fighting a bigger squad- even better.

 

The fact that priests can be singled out in combat is not a poor one, but it is said within a vacuum that doesn't take our ability to position our models into consideration. We can quite easily avoid special weapons.

This is obviously more difficult to do for a footsloggy priest, but considerably easier to do with a Jumpy Priest.

 

Further to this, I find the reluctance to make use of 4x Strength 5, Initiative 5 Power Weapon attacks at Weapon Skill 5 just criminal. Why have a model that has a statline like that trail at the back of a squad in order to only give the squad FC and FNP. What's the point? Isn't half of FC's ability to boost S and I stats so that the combat is swung better in our favour? Why pay a KP premium and 50-75 points for a unit that takes no role on the field beyond giving FNP!? If you're paying points for a priest, I see little to no reason why you should ever be without a fighting weapon. Generally speaking that's what he's there to do.

 

Again, there are always exceptions to the rule, and certain builds may be based around only one priest. Certain land raider builds may use the raider as a lynch pin and require the priest remain in at all times while all the other units around make use of both FNP *AND* FC. An interesting way to look at the efficiency of this unit is to take its total cost of the priest(s) and divide it up among all the units/models that have made use of it. The more units/models that use its ability, the more efficient the usage of its points.

 

 

LEAVE SPECIALISATION TO ELDAR

 

The same concept of efficiency can be applied to other units.

 

Another concept I would like to put forward is that of Specialisation vs. Generalisation.

This concept goes hand in hand with the concept of Efficiency I have explained above.

 

Let's take a 10man unit of assault marines - coming in at 190 points.

 

While some players like to theme their units to fulfill a very particular battlefield role, I maintain that once again this is a poor use of points. Giving your 10man unit of assault marines a Power Weapon and 2 flamers is by no means a "bad" choice - especially if you're dealing with copious amounts of horde in your area. However, if you're in a more generalised environment equipping a unit to deal with one type of unit gives little credit to your opponent's ability or to the dynamic changes that can result during the game.

 

Having a unit that is capable of engaging ALL kinds of units/situations irrespective of what they are is a much better use of points in my opinion. The reason for this is that if you limit your potential battlefield roles for each unit, you limit your options as a general.

 

A bare minimum for a 10 man Assault squad in my opinion should be 2 Meltaguns and a Powerfist. This allows the unit to engage horde units, marines, tanks, walkers, the works. The exclusion of a fist just means that 200+ point unit now has to avoid/run away from dreadnoughts and the like and rely on other units in your army to deal with it if the situation arises.

 

The same can be said for Tactical marines. If you are a fan of tacticals- dont find yourself paying 180 points for a 10man squad with a lascannon and a smile. That's a very expensive lascannon. Give the unit additional roles/capabilities. Buy a rhino, a fist and a melta/free flamer and a lascannon so that you can provide a shooty role from within the rhino if you desperately need the shooting, or if you need the added fighty support you have it! You can even use the unit as a tarpit for other hammer units or even Combat Squad up and have a claiming lascannon on home plate and mobile cover and fighty support up front! But don't leave the sarge without a weapon - ever! The only thing you do is make your opponent's job easier, and yours more difficult

 

CONCLUSION

 

 

While there are a myriad of factors to consider when applying this theory, I urge players that don't usually make use of it to consider it and try work it into their building/conceptualisation of lists.

Blood Angels are so incredible when synergised and units have real potential to become a jack of all trades unit - which allows you to deal with almost any situation coming your way.

 

I hope this provides food for thought!

 

Cheers,

 

Mort

[Fortunate Son]

I have run a 10man assault squad with fist and double melta for quite a while.

I agree that they need a transport (rhino or Raider)

I have seen them accomplish much more than jumpy troops kitted the same,

or more poorly equipped similar squads.

Keep them pointed in the right direction and they will always do their part.

[Atlantic]

I agree with about everything you wrote.

 

However, I shy away from pimping out Sanguinary Priests for one reason. They are 1 wound models. It scares me just a little bit to put a 90 point independent character on the table with only one wound. Weapon Skill 5 is cool, but it isn't that cool. You are still rolling 3's or 4's against the vast majority of opponents. I'm not sure that warrants another 15 point investment.

[Ushtarador]

I started equipping all my Spriests with LC's, the additional power attacks really help out a lot. If you manage to avoid power weapons (e.g. by moving in another squad first to bind ICs), it's very hard to kill a SP with normal attacks.

Also, I managed to wipe out a Devastator Squad with a single SP in three rounds, totally worth it ;P

[JamesI]

Well written Morticon, completely agree.

[Leksington]

I agree with about everything you wrote.

 

However, I shy away from pimping out Sanguinary Priests for one reason. They are 1 wound models. It scares me just a little bit to put a 90 point independent character on the table with only one wound. Weapon Skill 5 is cool, but it isn't that cool. You are still rolling 3's or 4's against the vast majority of opponents. I'm not sure that warrants another 15 point investment.

HG squad gets you worthwhile value out of your SP.

 

-Not an IC

-You get 4 veterans at essentially 16.25 points per model.

-If you upgrade to JPs, the Novitiate is getting his JP for 15 points cheaper than the SP would. (while the veterans get their JPs at their standard rate)

 

And if you are looking at the Meta value, they are the same cost as a C:SM Command Squad, despite the Blood Chalice being superior to Narthecium.

 

 

Great thread btw.

[Leksington]

While some players like to theme their units to fulfill a very particular battlefield role, I maintain that once again this is a poor use of points.

Here is where I disagree with you. Your overall Army needs to be adaptable, and adaptable units are very helpful in this regard. However it is great to have individual units great at filling particular roles.

 

Note: I agree with you that Troop choices often need to be adaptable. This because their primary 'specialized role' has a lot to do with being a scoring unit, and a scoring unit's specialized role will change from game to game.

 

 

A 'do-all' unit is never the most point efficient in any specific specialized role. Getting specialized units into their specialized role is where you maximize point-efficiency. This is where you earn your points as a general( ;) ); getting the right guys in position to do the right job. Venture to keep specialist doing what they do well, and minimize their exposure to what they do not not. This is where true point-efficiency comes from.

 

BA are one of the more mobile armies, and therefore offer the players a unique opportunity to get the right guys into position to do the right job. Sure your opponent will try to swing the match-ups in their favor, but with BA mobility you should have a leg up on your opponent.

[Morticon]

While some players like to theme their units to fulfill a very particular battlefield role, I maintain that once again this is a poor use of points.

Here is where I disagree with you. Your overall Army needs to be adaptable, and adaptable units are very helpful in this regard. However it is great to have individual units great at filling particular roles.

 

Note: I agree with you that Troop choices often need to be adaptable. This because their primary 'specialized role' has a lot to do with being a scoring unit, and a scoring unit's specialized role will change from game to game.

 

 

A 'do-all' unit is never the most point efficient in any specific specialized role. Getting specialized units into their specialized role is where you maximize point-efficiency. This is where you earn your points as a general( ;) ); getting the right guys in position to do the right job. Venture to keep specialist doing what they do well, and minimize their exposure to what they do not not. This is where true point-efficiency comes from.

 

BA are one of the more mobile armies, and therefore offer the players a unique opportunity to get the right guys into position to do the right job. Sure your opponent will try to swing the match-ups in their favor, but with BA mobility you should have a leg up on your opponent.

 

Some nice points.

 

My argument is that when all things being equal (ie: player capability) getting a specialised unit into position relies on too many factors lined up in your favour. Not something you can always count on. It also means that in cases where said specialisation does not warrant application, you have not used those points effectively.

 

That is just purely academic though, so a question for clarity, then;

What is your idea of a non-Troop unit that is specialised?

 

I can't really think of any off the top of my head.

[Tamwulf]

All hail the justification for Razorback Spam! The most efficient, practical, Mathammer way to win a beer and pretzels game! Booyah!

 

That's what this tactica article is all about, right? How many points a troop squad in a razorback costs and it's effectiveness multiplied as many times as possible to win?

 

Well written, good points, great justification for a list building strategy that I totally abhor and wish was not possible in 40K. But it is what is, and if you want a big red Easy Win Button, Razorback Spam it is.

[Morticon]

All hail the justification for Razorback Spam! The most efficient, practical, Mathammer way to win a beer and pretzels game! Booyah!

 

That's what this tactica article is all about, right? How many points a troop squad in a razorback costs and it's effectiveness multiplied as many times as possible to win?

 

Well written, good points, great justification for a list building strategy that I totally abhor and wish was not possible in 40K. But it is what is, and if you want a big red Easy Win Button, Razorback Spam it is.

 

Comprehension "D minus".

 

:P Re-read it Tamwulf!

 

 

Its not advocating razor spam at all.

Rather advocating how to choose effective and efficient units.

A razorback is just one of those units.

[Leksington]

That is just purely academic though, so a question for clarity, then;

What is your idea of a non-Troop unit that is specialised?

 

I can't really think of any off the top of my head.

A quick easy example (and one of my favorites) is 4 Plasma HG and it is very specialized.

 

I need to be shooting at something with at least Sv4+, and hopefully something closer to Sv2+. I don't want this unit in CC. I'm probably not trying to crack open vehicles with this unit. Ideally I'm peppering an opponent's big bad assault unit from out of assault range. If DoA, I want this unit's FNP bubble covering more than just this squad. I wouldn't want 2 units like this, because then their redundancy makes it harder to get both into their ideal situation.

 

While dropping 1-2 Plasma guns would make this unit better for CC (and cheaper), it wouldn't be as point efficient in CC or shooting as the 4 Plasma HG are in their specific role.

[Morticon]

While dropping 1-2 Plasma guns would make this unit better for CC (and cheaper), it wouldn't be as point efficient in CC or shooting as the 4 Plasma HG are in their specific role.

 

So you feel that 225 points for 4 plasma guns is an effective/efficient use of points?

:D

I'm going to have to disagree entirely. I think that's a very, very poor use of points.

 

If you're "peppering a units big bad assaulters outside of assault range" it means you're taking 4 shots- not 8.

It means you're likely to be getting around 2 wounds if there's no cover in the mix. 1 if there is.

Furthermore, if you're outside assault range, you're going to be outside of the priest range for FC and FNP for your own charges. Not good.

Then what?

 

That unit is using 225points to do 2 wounds a round, if it hasn't moved. If it has moved it can up this to 4 maybe even 5 wounds (assuming no cover) but then risks being counter charged.

 

What happens when your units that do mop up duty are countered by the enemy? What do you have to then counter that?

 

I understand how this unit works in a vacuum, but not how it works in reality on the field.

Having a unit like that with 4 Melta Guns (also S8 - much better for instant death) and then one or 2 PWs means many more battlefield uses. You can use it against vehicles, heavy troops and it works in conjunction with whatever else is charging - same plan as before, only more uses.

 

(also, not wanting to sound dismissive at all!! Im totally keen for dialogue/counter points! You should show me how to use a unit like that in vassal!! )

[JamesI]

The 4 PG HG is a unit I have tried. Not sure I consider it efficient. Every time I've felt disappointed in how it performed (except one time against a new player who left a really expensive bike command squad in the open without turbo boosting and I showed him how bad it would be if I deep struck the HG there and toasted him. Considering he was a new player I only showed him this, I was nicer than actually doing it).

 

The priest is helpful, and I think the unit can be ok in a pure DOA army. I'm not sure it works at all outside DOA.

[Atlantic]

I think a much more effective way to put some plasma in your list is using a las plas razorback.

 

You don't have to worry about get's hot and can rapid fire at 24 inches. Also, if you drive the vehicle 6" or less you can shoot both guns as it is a fast vehicle. The plasma gun is also twin linked. Depending on how you purchase it, it is much cheaper than the plasma gun honour guard squad as with two of those at 110 points you are getting more ap 2 shots per turn at less than half of the cost of the hguard.

[Leksington]

I understand how this unit works in a vacuum, but not how it works in reality on the field.

Having a unit like that with 4 Melta Guns (also S8 - much better for instant death) and then one or 2 PWs means many more battlefield uses. You can use it against vehicles, heavy troops and it works in conjunction with whatever else is charging - same plan as before, only more uses.

 

(also, not wanting to sound dismissive at all!! Im totally keen for dialogue/counter points! You should show me how to use a unit like that in vassal!! )

I didn't want to derail this thread and make it about plasma HG. :P

 

But I would point out that, your counter of a squad of 4 Melta and 2 PW isn't very efficient.

Every turn that unit is in protracted combat, you have 40 points invested in meltaguns in that squad that isn't doing anything, and you are down 2 Power weapon attacks, and 2 regular weapon attacks. Not to mention that this squad is going to die at a very fast rate if you are putting it up against your opponents toughest assault units. I would have suggested that it was more efficient to set your sights on a more favorable assault matchup. :P

 

If you are planning to assault with this unit, it would have been much more point efficient to keep it better at assaulting than to water it down its assault capability (and raise its cost) with split roles.

 

But like you said, in a vacuum and all that.

 

P.S. I think I could convince you of the value of Plasma HG if I showed you how I used it.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Mort:

 

I agree that one needs to use the ASM in the Razor for something - most of the time.

 

Also agree about fist+melta being the best setup for jump squads.

 

I am not keen on having power weapons everywhere however. That is a very expensive upgrade when you put them on enough squads to make it worthwhile. Additionnaly, power weapons are only really useful when fighting marines; they are a tremendous waste of points when fighting IG, Orks and the like.

 

I'm also not in agreement with you on the Priests. Yes, they can turn the tide in some assaults, but leaving them naked in their transport is not a waste. If they are supporting 10 guys while staying safe inside a transport, you are basically paying 5 pts per guy to give him Furious Charge and Feel no Pain... not bad at all.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

power weapons help against everyone, it's one less save he can even attempt.

 

my standard razor back squad, of which i only run two, is 5 guys, fist, melta with the assault cannons, or occasionally i'll sub in lascannons for funsies. i always take a priest in one of the razors and they stay together for the most part so his bubble covers both squads when they get out to assault/shoot.

 

they go with a tac squad with pw plasma and ML, and a 10 man RAS with fist and two melta and JP.

 

my rule of thumb is, if it can kill a tank it can kill a guy, so it's good.

[Deschenus Maximus]

power weapons help against everyone, it's one less save he can even attempt.

 

When that save is a 6+, or a 5+, it's entirely irrelevant.

[appiah4]

The same can be said for Tactical marines. If you are a fan of tacticals- dont find yourself paying 180 points for a 10man squad with a lascannon and a smile. That's a very expensive lascannon. Give the unit additional roles/capabilities. Buy a rhino, a fist and a melta/free flamer and a lascannon so that you can provide a shooty role from within the rhino if you desperately need the shooting, or if you need the added fighty support you have it! You can even use the unit as a tarpit for other hammer units or even Combat Squad up and have a claiming lascannon on home plate and mobile cover and fighty support up front! But don't leave the sarge without a weapon - ever! The only thing you do is make your opponent's job easier, and yours more difficult

 

I disagree 101% with this if by weapon you mean a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

These things really have little to no use in Tactical Squads. Buy them a matching or synergetic combi-weapon (my favorite is the Combi-Plasma because you can basically shoot it twice for the same point). Just because the Power Fist adds value to the squad for a role it has no business being in is bad advice IMO.

 

Give them a PW or PF in a fight they'd normally lose, and they'll just lose less badly. Give them a PW or PF in a fight they'd normally win, and they'll win through overkil. The only thing the PF actually helps a Tactical Squad against are armor and walkers, which are dealt with in a much better fashion with the free Multi-Melta, cheap melta and/or a combi-melta.

[Morticon]

I disagree 101% with this if by weapon you mean a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

These things really have little to no use in Tactical Squads.

 

Give them a PW or PF in a fight they'd normally lose, and they'll just lose less badly. Give them a PW or PF in a fight they'd normally win, and they'll win through overkil. The only thing the PF actually helps a Tactical Squad against are armor and walkers, which are dealt with in a much better fashion with the free Multi-Melta, cheap melta and/or a combi-melta.

 

Can the same not be said for Assault Marines?

If you feel this has no use in a tactical squad, how do you feel that the Tactical Marine's points are used in terms of efficiency?

170 points for walking bolters? Add a rhino and we now have 220 points of walking bolters. Arguably ineffective and inefficient!

 

The article is more about creating point efficiency rather than focusing on idealised roles.

[Morticon]

I'm also not in agreement with you on the Priests. Yes, they can turn the tide in some assaults, but leaving them naked in their transport is not a waste. If they are supporting 10 guys while staying safe inside a transport, you are basically paying 5 pts per guy to give him Furious Charge and Feel no Pain... not bad at all.

 

Remember, as above- I dont think it's a "waste" - i even quoted the example about working a priest off a raider lynchpin unit.

However, once again- we're talking about efficiency. If you divide that 50 points up to 10men, then its 5points per guy. But if you throw in the priest as well, you're making use of that models cost too - therefore increasing the point efficiency! Which is what the article is trying to focus on.

[appiah4]

I disagree 101% with this if by weapon you mean a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

These things really have little to no use in Tactical Squads.

 

Give them a PW or PF in a fight they'd normally lose, and they'll just lose less badly. Give them a PW or PF in a fight they'd normally win, and they'll win through overkil. The only thing the PF actually helps a Tactical Squad against are armor and walkers, which are dealt with in a much better fashion with the free Multi-Melta, cheap melta and/or a combi-melta.

 

Can the same not be said for Assault Marines?

If you feel this has no use in a tactical squad, how do you feel that the Tactical Marine's points are used in terms of efficiency?

170 points for walking bolters? Add a rhino and we now have 220 points of walking bolters. Arguably ineffective and inefficient!

 

The article is more about creating point efficiency rather than focusing on idealised roles.

 

I am not advocating 10 bolters in a Rhino as an efficient Tactical Squad build. By all means, taking the free upgrades is a no-brainer. The Multi-Melta in specific is the most valuable upgrade any Tactical Squad can take, and it's free, you can't beat that at efficiency. The Plasmagun is their second best upgrade, it allows for synergetic range and very good threat enhancement.

 

I am arguing against taking melee weapons on the sergeant. All I'm saying is, always take the combi-weapon on the sergeant over these, preferrably something that synergizes - in my opinion a Combi-Plasma or a Combi-Melta.

 

Why a Power Fist makes sense in the Assault Squad is hidden in the unit's name and role.

 

EDIT: I just re-read my own post and it came across rather bad, sounding like I argue against taking any upgrades in Tactical Squads. That is obviously not what I intended, I was arguing against arming Tactical sergeants with close combat weapons.

[knife&fork]

I am not keen on having power weapons everywhere however. That is a very expensive upgrade when you put them on enough squads to make it worthwhile. Additionnaly, power weapons are only really useful when fighting marines; they are a tremendous waste of points when fighting IG, Orks and the like.

 

I'm also not in agreement with you on the Priests. Yes, they can turn the tide in some assaults, but leaving them naked in their transport is not a waste. If they are supporting 10 guys while staying safe inside a transport, you are basically paying 5 pts per guy to give him Furious Charge and Feel no Pain... not bad at all.

 

A regular power weapon increases your wound output vs marines by 200%, even more if you run into other FnP units. Where else can you get an increase in performance like that?

Against orks or IG it's certainly not as point efficient but every bit of combat resolution helps against those too. A 5+ is still 33%, similar to the difference between a melta and krack missile vs AV. Who says melta weapons aren't worth taking?

If you want to take a priest and he's going to see some action it's definitely worth taking that PW. A backline priest babysitting devsquads doesn't need that power weapon, and front line priest in razor spam aren't worth it at all imho.

 

 

5 points per dude is not a good deal in my book, it's ok. Buying him in an honor guard for less pts and getting FnP/FC coverage on the vets, 1-2 assault squads and likely a HQ IC is a good deal.

I've also found that it's easier to slip outside of the 6" bubble when you leave the priest inside a transport.

[Morticon]

I am not advocating 10 bolters in a Rhino as an efficient Tactical Squad build. By all means, taking the free upgrades is a no-brainer. The Multi-Melta in specific is the most valuable upgrade any Tactical Squad can take, and it's free, you can't beat that at efficiency. The Plasmagun is their second best upgrade, it allows for synergetic range and very good threat enhancement.

 

Appiah, would you be suggesting then that an efficient role for the Tacs would be a multimelta and a plasgun (coming in at 180 points for 10guys)?

So- at 24"you're looking at a unit that shoots 8 bolt shots a MM shot and a plas shot. Its also static. So, you're paying 180 points for a unit that does very little in the game.

 

This is essentially the crux of my argument/article - making use of the additional points invested in your "start up points".

 

We have invested 170 points into a unit.

Using it for a very, very limited role is simply inefficient in my view.

 

I agree with you 100% that PW/PF tacticals are not "ideal" units- however, the tactical squad is arguably not an ideal unit. But, if we're fielding it- we should at least be making it as efficient as we can. Paying the 180point tax to have it sit back and shoot some shots does not do it any justice. And I feel that's also why this unit gets quite a bum rap.

[appiah4]

Appiah, would you be suggesting then that an efficient role for the Tacs would be a multimelta and a plasgun (coming in at 180 points for 10guys)?

So- at 24"you're looking at a unit that shoots 8 bolt shots a MM shot and a plas shot. Its also static. So, you're paying 180 points for a unit that does very little in the game.

 

This is essentially the crux of my argument/article - making use of the additional points invested in your "start up points".

 

We have invested 170 points into a unit.

Using it for a very, very limited role is simply inefficient in my view.

 

I agree with you 100% that PW/PF tacticals are not "ideal" units- however, the tactical squad is arguably not an ideal unit. But, if we're fielding it- we should at least be making it as efficient as we can. Paying the 180point tax to have it sit back and shoot some shots does not do it any justice. And I feel that's also why this unit gets quite a bum rap.

 

When you want to make something sound bad, you can make anything sound bad; like what you did here with the Tactical Squad loadout I mentioned. If I give this squad the Power Fist you mention, then it will be a 205 pt squad with 9 S4 and only 2 S8 armor ignoring attacks. Which will hit on 4+ against anything worth hitting. And with retaliation. See what I did there?

 

Face it, Tactical Squads are not efficient, and can not be efficient by just further investing points into them; That's because they aren't tooled out in a way to handle any situation effectively by themselves, their default weapons make sure you have very limited damage output to anything that's armored. You can only slightly amend that disadvantage in close combat (1 PF just doesn't cut it) but you can mitigate it to a reasonable degree for ranged combat with the Heavy/Special/Combi trio.

 

Power Fist or not, if your Tacticals are in combat with something that will not go down to S4 attacks, they'll die. Trying to get them to take down a few more models does not make them efficient. It makes them less efficient even, because you invested points into something with no meaningful return.

 

FINAL EDIT: I understand what you are doing here and I agree with most of your points and your general stand. I also think that Tacticals are an OK and valid choice as a Troops choice if not as good as others in our or other codexes, and I share your sentiment that they don't deserve the bad rep they get. But a PF or otherwise trying to tool them for better melee does not fix them, that's what I think.