Point-Efficiency in C: BA

[knife&fork]

Easier said then done when you have 5 of them, which will all have at the minimum a 5+ cover save.

 

Your opponent doesn't have to take out all of them. Because you are trying to get synergy from several elements you'll start to lose momentum as soon as your first razor goes down. And what kind list is incapable of dealing with a couple of rhinos each turn? You have slow moving troops in fast transports, are you going to slow your entire advance in order to keep everything together once you've lost one or two transports?

 

Target priority vs your example list is a no-brainer.

 

Completely and utterly false. 5 FCing, FnP ASM are plenty able to take on any other MSU squad outside of Halberd Purifiers, as well larger squads when you throw 2+ units at them together.

 

Grey hunters, nope. GK, nope. Trukk boys, nope. Plaugemarines, nope. Those are some of the more common ones at the top of my head.

Melta/plasma vets, sure, provided you get the entire squad in assault before they are blasted to bits. Good luck with that.

 

What exactly is it that you think a 5 man assault squad is "plenty able to take on"?

 

 

Resilience isn't the only factor at play when you make a list, you know.

 

It's a pretty big one though. It takes a lot more firepower to get rid of three AV13 targets compared to four AV10s. With more AV13 on board you give less targets for all the S5 and S6 big guns in the game.

 

 

Mephiston unsupported will just die, same thing for the DC. And since you need to cut out the bits that would allow the ASM to support them...

 

To the rest: bollocks. Naked razor squads are entirely wasted as they have NOTHING they can do except score. You are taking a great deal of potential and throwing it in the gutter.

 

What are you getting at here, unsupported? Your entire army is able to help both of these by opening transports and stunning/destroying tanks.

There will be a lot of places to hide Mephiston in terrain or behind vehicles. Wings and fleet makes him plenty able to pick his own fights and he's capable of murdering entire units on his own.

DC Rhino go off and attract an inordinate amount of fire, kill something and then usually die, Just as planned. If they 'make their points back' or not isn't as interesting as forcing your opponent to commit.

 

Naked razor squads are expendable, as they should be. Any upgrades are best spent improving what they already do well and assault is not one of those.

If you are running a spammy list it makes sense to make it as spammy as possible. That's why we picked this approach to begin with, saturation. It's the same as running an elite list and not skimp on the upgrades that lets you come out on top.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Your opponent doesn't have to take out all of them. Because you are trying to get synergy from several elements you'll start to lose momentum as soon as your first razor goes down.

 

And this is different from any other non-naked troops mech list how exactly?

 

And what kind list is incapable of dealing with a couple of rhinos each turn?

 

If left to their own devices? Not many. When being suppressed by 5 twin assault cannons, 8 missiles, 6 lascannons and 3 autocannons? A great deal less, I can assure you.

 

You have slow moving troops in fast transports, are you going to slow your entire advance in order to keep everything together once you've lost one or two transports?

 

You shouldn't be making the mistake of thinking that assault is priority number one here. The shooting part is what will make or break this list, not the assault capacity. Ergo, the fact that some troops get demeched isn't as critical as they don't need to get where they are going to until the later parts of the game, by which time they should have caught up.

 

Target priority vs your example list is a no-brainer.

 

Target priority is generally a no brainer no matter the list, so... meh?

 

Grey hunters, nope.

 

Huh, yes? 2 melta shots + 3 BP + 15 attacks at S and I 5 = 3 dead Hunters before they even get to swing. Assuming the WG survives, and they pass their Countercharge check, they swing back and kill a third of a marine. Pretty clear win for the ASM.

 

GK, nope.

 

Wrong, again. Same result as last time for the ASM: 3 dead GK before they swing. The Justicar and two peddlers swing back and kill 1.33 ASM, assuming they pass Hammerhand. Narrower victory margin, but victory nonetheless.

 

Trukk boys, nope.

 

Depends on who gets the charge. If the ASM do, they will wipe the floor with the Orks. Otherwise, the Orks win by about 2 kills.

 

Plaugemarines, nope.

 

No, wrong. ASM kill 2, Plagues swing back and kill .3 ASM.

 

If you are going to make these claims, at least take the time to run the math. And yes a lot of these depend on the ASM getting the charge. That goes without saying, that's just the nature of the beast. And really, with fast transports, you should be able to.

 

Those are some of the more common ones at the top of my head.

Melta/plasma vets, sure, provided you get the entire squad in assault before they are blasted to bits. Good luck with that.

 

Don't need a full squad to wipe a squad of Guarsdmen. Get real.

 

What exactly is it that you think a 5 man assault squad is "plenty able to take on"?

 

Well, all the above examples you erreonously listed.

 

It's a pretty big one though. It takes a lot more firepower to get rid of three AV13 targets compared to four AV10s. With more AV13 on board you give less targets for all the S5 and S6 big guns in the game.

 

Still doesn't answer my rather pointed question: what do the Baals provide me in terms of offensive capability that the I don't already have?

 

 

What are you getting at here, unsupported? Your entire army is able to help both of these by opening transports and stunning/destroying tanks.

There will be a lot of places to hide Mephiston in terrain or behind vehicles. Wings and fleet makes him plenty able to pick his own fights and he's capable of murdering entire units on his own.

 

And there lies the "unsupported bit" - he kills one squad and is left out in the open for your opponent to focus-fire down and kill. Very bad use of 250 pts.

 

DC Rhino go off and attract an inordinate amount of fire, kill something and then usually die, Just as planned. If they 'make their points back' or not isn't as interesting as forcing your opponent to commit.

 

Or the Rhino gets blown up/stunned/immbolised early one, and your big scary unit gets to go chase after some Rhino your opponent throws at them.

 

Naked razor squads are expendable, as they should be. Any upgrades are best spent improving what they already do well and assault is not one of those.

If you are running a spammy list it makes sense to make it as spammy as possible. That's why we picked this approach to begin with, saturation. It's the same as running an elite list and not skimp on the upgrades that lets you come out on top.

 

5 out of my 6 troops slots are already filled with the same kind of unit and as close as similar in capacity as is reasonable to make. Sure, I could cut out a bunch of stuff and add a 6th squad, but what do I gain? Another twin assault cannon and 5 dudes that can't do jack :ermm:. And for that I am giving up a ton of resilience on my admidetly limited amount of troops, as well as reliable means to deal with heavy armour or mass amount of transport and any reasonable ability to mop up depleted units through assault.

 

Thanks, but I think I'll stick with my current setup.

[Morticon]

Guys, lets keep it civil and respectful irrespective of how we view each other's opinions. There's a little too much shirtyness going on at the moment. It's a good thread thanks to all the varied input - lets not wreck it yet.

 

PS: This thread and the differences in opinion is exactly why I started the VASSAL BA Challenge....but so far no one is stepping up.

[SamaNagol]

I'm trying to learn how to use Vassal, maybe a guide to actually use it once you have installed it would be useful? Or should I just post in the arrange a game thread so I can 'meet' someone online and they can show me?

 

I do like the Razorback with the T/L Assault Cannon for the reasons this thread exists. Lascannons might be great but if you aren't facing elite well armour adversaries they are somewhat redundant. It is a very good point raised about the units inside the transports being effectively useless if they get popped. They really are. No threat at all if they get popped early and by the time they close in on something they won't have anything that scares the enemy. A meltagun and a Lightning Claw can be a great investment for the price of 2 bodies.

 

With such versatile tanks as our Predators and well priced MeltaBikes it allows you to make sure troops are geared towards utility rather than specialisation.

 

Of course they will never be Grey Knights or Grey Hunters but stil...

[Morticon]

I'm trying to learn how to use Vassal, maybe a guide to actually use it once you have installed it would be useful? Or should I just post in the arrange a game thread so I can 'meet' someone online and they can show me?

 

post in the game thread - let us know your times!

[Emperors Immortals]

Guys I haven't been able to post in this thread yet due to time constraints, but here is my 2 galleons. First thanks to Morticon for taking the time to help others with there enjoyment of our hobby and especially for getting the Vassal challenge going, ill make time to contribute and i urge all of us to as well.

 

This is a very valuable thread, any one interested in the basic philosophy behind army lists should view it.At what point can we judge someone else's enjoyment or effectiveness?

 

Effectiveness can be judged quite well on results - so lets support the BA Vassal challenge and get in there - ill take the time to write a small guide on the how to today and then we can all work towards establishing a good circuit because well need the training to take on the new Chaos and DA dex' and get in shape for 6th ed. Also, lets give those damn SW a good run!!!

 

Enjoyment is such a nebulous state that its almost meaningless in an objective sense.At what point do you like to "compromise" effectiveness for fluff? I like to take DC and a Rec every battle for no other reason then philosophically and religiously that's what my little plastic men would do IRL to your little plastic men - not because there particularly the best unit (even though they are).The passion in this thread is ample demonstration of the fact that a man will fight for right to enjoyment more then his right for victory, and the two can be mutually inclusive - after all I know its not as much fun to run a fantasy list and lose EVERY battle, a few victories here and there are nice and Morticons suggestions are spot on the money IMO.

 

Anyway, children and Easter bunnies beckon, so lets make the BA forum stronger and remember our beloved Primarch and kill them without fear.

 

Blood calls to blood, see you on Vassal.

[Khorneeq]

My 2 cent about improving effectiveness

Yes I'll be using Tacticals as an example :)

 

I have one unit of them from previous edition (as they were necessary then) and thanks to some articles on B&C I changed my tactics.

Earlier I've been using them combat squadded and razorback mounted- half at the backfield, half going to the front.

But WarpAngel pointed in his tactica articles that I'm wasting potential of bolters they are armed with.

Now I've changed tactics and they are doing quite well. I'm taking a rhino full of them, 12" move 12" rapid fire range- and it work well for softening opponents CC hard hitters. Plasma gun and combi plasma are really useful for them, but fist is important too, as they end up in opponents charge range.

 

You might try and give these guys a try ;)

[JamesI]

My 2 cent about improving effectiveness

Yes I'll be using Tacticals as an example ;)

 

I have one unit of them from previous edition (as they were necessary then) and thanks to some articles on B&C I changed my tactics.

Earlier I've been using them combat squadded and razorback mounted- half at the backfield, half going to the front.

But WarpAngel pointed in his tactica articles that I'm wasting potential of bolters they are armed with.

Now I've changed tactics and they are doing quite well. I'm taking a rhino full of them, 12" move 12" rapid fire range- and it work well for softening opponents CC hard hitters. Plasma gun and combi plasma are really useful for them, but fist is important too, as they end up in opponents charge range.

 

You might try and give these guys a try :P

Yep, this is how I run my tacticals when I use them. Though mine carry 1 heavy weapon just in case.

[knife&fork]

And this is different from any other non-naked troops mech list how exactly?

 

Because they are either plain better, are part of a more passive concept or function independently from each other, usually all three. Your setup on the other hand needs a lot of things to go right if it's to function as intended.

 

 

If left to their own devices? Not many. When being suppressed by 5 twin assault cannons, 8 missiles, 6 lascannons and 3 autocannons? A great deal less, I can assure you.

 

You shouldn't be making the mistake of thinking that assault is priority number one here. The shooting part is what will make or break this list, not the assault capacity. Ergo, the fact that some troops get demeched isn't as critical as they don't need to get where they are going to until the later parts of the game, by which time they should have caught up.

 

You seem to disregard the opponents shooting phase in all your calculations. Plus you don't always go first, you can't always have targets in range/los for every weapon in the list and the fact that late game when you are likely to have de-meched the enemy you could just continue shooting them. Specially when you have picked a medium range, standoff weapon like the TL assault cannon for your razor backs. With TL flamers kitting out the squads a bit is definitely the way to go. If you take that approach it suddenly starts to make sense and you are getting some real synergy from your choices.

 

 

If you are going to make these claims, at least take the time to run the math. And yes a lot of these depend on the ASM getting the charge. That goes without saying, that's just the nature of the beast. And really, with fast transports, you should be able to.

 

Ah yes, and all it takes for the above to work is your squads reaching the enemy unharmed, always have priest coverage, always get the charge and for the opponent to be kind enough to never use cover. While riding AV11, non assault-vehicles. ;) Who are you playing against that let you pull off something like that frequently?

 

Still doesn't answer my rather pointed question: what do the Baals provide me in terms of offensive capability that the I don't already have?

 

I thought it was obvious, AV13, can't go on the offensive if you're dead/stunned. Your opponent doesn't have an unlimited amount of S7 and above fire power. The more AV13 you take the less targets he gets for his S5 and S6 guns. It also ties in with target priority and how it isn't a no-brainer when you limit the amount of effective fire available.

 

 

And there lies the "unsupported bit" - he kills one squad and is left out in the open for your opponent to focus-fire down and kill. Very bad use of 250 pts.

 

Or the Rhino gets blown up/stunned/immbolised early one, and your big scary unit gets to go chase after some Rhino your opponent throws at them.

 

So just don't do that? If there's no good target for Mephiston show some discipline and change position or simply stand down for a turn or two until you get an opportunity to strike. Just having him hiding behind a building is going to influence your opponents maneuvers anyway and the hood still works without LoS.

 

That's always a possibility, also the reason why we are careful with the initial placement and don't let a rhino DC unit break the bank. Sub 300 pts is not too bad and with careful use it's going to work fine more times than it will flop. Ideally there is plenty of cover and av13 to hide behind anyway.

 

I think you are already aware that there are many people here on this forum that have used Both DC and Mephiston to good effect. The "chase a rhino around" line is getting very old, being kited around is far less of a problem than people make it out to be.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Because they are either plain better, are part of a more passive concept or function independently from each other, usually all three.

 

What units are you thinking of exactly?

 

You seem to disregard the opponents shooting phase in all your calculations. Plus you don't always go first, you can't always have targets in range/los for every weapon in the list

 

Sometimes, a razor or two will be out of range on turn 1, but on boards that follow the 25% terrain coverage guideline, I have successfully managed to bring to bear all of my guns consistently. It's not always easy, but it is doable.

 

and the fact that late game when you are likely to have de-meched the enemy you could just continue shooting them.

 

I can do that now if I want to, you know? Having the ability to assault when that proves to be insufficient is golden, though.

 

Specially when you have picked a medium range, standoff weapon like the TL assault cannon for your razor backs. With TL flamers kitting out the squads a bit is definitely the way to go. If you take that approach it suddenly starts to make sense and you are getting some real synergy from your choices.

 

Yep, flamerbacks would work well. I deliberately choose to go with less synergy between the troop and its transport in order to have more flexibility at the army level.

 

Ah yes, and all it takes for the above to work is your squads reaching the enemy unharmed, always have priest coverage, always get the charge and for the opponent to be kind enough to never use cover. While riding AV11, non assault-vehicles. :confused: Who are you playing against that let you pull off something like that frequently?

 

You consistently ignore the fact that, as I have stated again and again, this is a shooting list, not an assault list. The principle point of having meltas is to take care of heavy armour or lists that spam a ton of medium armour (IG) against which having a pure shooty force is not going to work. The Priests are there to maximise the survivability of the ASM once they debus to blow up tanks. The fact that I can then use the ASM to mop up the survivors of my shooting phase is quite quite secondary to everything else. So pointing out the hurdles of getting into assault is, quite simply, missing the point.

 

But just for the giggles: all my Razors can shoot ahead on turn 1 18 inches. If I am going first, that means that most of the ASM can be in assault by turn 2 if the opponent didn't deploy back enough. Having Priest coverage is not a big issue with 2 priest and only 25 guys to cover. Getting the charge should also not be an issue with so much firepower to demech the opponent and having fast vehicles. And not use cover? Huh? Grenades, hi?

 

I thought it was obvious, AV13, can't go on the offensive if you're dead/stunned. Your opponent doesn't have an unlimited amount of S7 and above fire power. The more AV13 you take the less targets he gets for his S5 and S6 guns. It also ties in with target priority and how it isn't a no-brainer when you limit the amount of effective fire available.

 

The more AV13 I have equals more of the S5-6-7 slamming into my Razors. That is bad. Beyond that, the Baals simply add more AI - which I don't need.

 

So just don't do that? If there's no good target for Mephiston show some discipline and change position or simply stand down for a turn or two until you get an opportunity to strike. Just having him hiding behind a building is going to influence your opponents maneuvers anyway and the hood still works without LoS.

 

If you are going to sink in an extra 150 pts over a Libby to get Mephiston, using him passively seems pretty questionable. There’s a ton of thing you could do with those points.

 

That's always a possibility, also the reason why we are careful with the initial placement and don't let a rhino DC unit break the bank. Sub 300 pts is not too bad and with careful use it's going to work fine more times than it will flop. Ideally there is plenty of cover and av13 to hide behind anyway.

 

I think you are already aware that there are many people here on this forum that have used Both DC and Mephiston to good effect. The "chase a rhino around" line is getting very old, being kited around is far less of a problem than people make it out to be.

 

Yeah, I know both units can work. Not in this list though.

[appiah4]

The more AV13 I have equals more of the S5-6-7 slamming into my Razors. That is bad. Beyond that, the Baals simply add more AI - which I don't need.

 

Wat?

[Deschenus Maximus]

The more AV13 I have equals more of the S5-6-7 slamming into my Razors. That is bad. Beyond that, the Baals simply add more AI - which I don't need.

 

Wat?

 

It's simple. In my list, I have AV10 targets which are dangerous (the Typhoon speeders), AV11 targets which are dangerous AND scoring (the Razors) and AV 13 targets that are dangerous (the Autolas Preds). Two of those target types are vulnerable to S5-S6 (Speeders and Razors). If you remove the Speeders, what else is the opponent going to shoot with his S5-6 weapons but the Razors? Since they are also carrying my scoring units, those are the units I LEAST want to see destroyed.

 

As for the anti-infantry bit, well that's pretty clear.

[DarthOvious]

Have you forgotten that this thing called the shooting phase exists?

 

I know you said you like you AM to have some melta options but AM range isn't really that great with these.

 

Now this is just a question and you may disagree with it but do you think there could be a place for a Tact squad with 24" bolters, rapid firing at 12", since you're largely focused on shooting? Or do you think losing the 35 point discount on the transport is too much?

[knife&fork]

It's simple. In my list, I have AV10 targets which are dangerous (the Typhoon speeders), AV11 targets which are dangerous AND scoring (the Razors) and AV 13 targets that are dangerous (the Autolas Preds). Two of those target types are vulnerable to S5-S6 (Speeders and Razors). If you remove the Speeders, what else is the opponent going to shoot with his S5-6 weapons but the Razors? Since they are also carrying my scoring units, those are the units I LEAST want to see destroyed.

 

As for the anti-infantry bit, well that's pretty clear.

 

Brilliant, make the opponents shooting less effective by giving him a valid target for every gun on the table!

 

http://i.imgur.com/zsuNu.gif

 

And assault cannons (if we assume that's what you take on the Baals) are not anti-infantry, they are general purpose with an edge for dealing with armor.

[DarthOvious]

The more AV13 I have equals more of the S5-6-7 slamming into my Razors. That is bad. Beyond that, the Baals simply add more AI - which I don't need.

 

Aren't all those shots slamming into your Razors anyway. You mean, I know you have more of them in your case but your list is built around the shooting aspect of the game like you said. So I can understand if a Baal is too much Anti-Infantry but are you able to include another normal pred? (I can't remember your list so I don't know, you might have 3 already).

[Deschenus Maximus]

I know you said you like you AM to have some melta options but AM range isn't really that great with these.

 

Now this is just a question and you may disagree with it but do you think there could be a place for a Tact squad with 24" bolters, rapid firing at 12", since you're largely focused on shooting? Or do you think losing the 35 point discount on the transport is too much?

 

Darth, it wouldn't work because you would need to get full squads of Tac to get the melta, which costs a lot of points and would mean that I would have to make a lot of cuts elsewhere.

 

 

Brilliant, make the opponents shooting less effective by giving him a valid target for every gun on the table!

 

http://i.imgur.com/zsuNu.gif

 

Let me reflect your http://i.imgur.com/zsuNu.gif right back at you buddy.

 

Apparently you don't understand that your opponent would still have valid targets for all his guns with your Baals. Except now he has no reason not to kill your Razors with his S5-6 guns.

 

See, target priority is about making it hard for your opponent to decide what is best to shoot. Do I go for the Speeders that pack a mean punch and are easier to destroy than the Razors, or the Razors that are still a threat and are carrying melta troops? Remove the Speeders out of the equation, and you did the work for your opponent.

 

And assault cannons (if we assume that's what you take on the Baals) are not anti-infantry, they are general purpose with an edge for dealing with armor.

 

You know what is even better at dealing with armour? Typhoon Speeders. They can also kill infantry in a pinch.

 

Aren't all those shots slamming into your Razors anyway. You mean, I know you have more of them in your case but your list is built around the shooting aspect of the game like you said. So I can understand if a Baal is too much Anti-Infantry but are you able to include another normal pred? (I can't remember your list so I don't know, you might have 3 already).

 

I already have 3 normal preds, yes.

 

No, the shots won't necessarily be aimed at the Razors straight off the bat. The reason is that the Typhoon speeders are easier to destroy than the Razors, and pack a lot of punch. So while some shots will be aimed at the Razor (those that can't realistically reach the Speeders), the enemy's long range, mid strength guns (autocannons, for example) should be aimed at the Speeders.

[DarthOvious]

Darth, it wouldn't work because you would need to get full squads of Tac to get the melta, which costs a lot of points and would mean that I would have to make a lot of cuts elsewhere.

 

I was thinking along the lines of no Meltagun in the squad. Just the Sarg having a combi-melta or something. The reason for this is to sacrifice the Meltagun for the longer range on the bolters instead and also the rapid fire ability for closer range. Like I said though, you may feel that losing the 35pt discount on the transport makes it unworkable and I was only suggesting this for one or two squads, not all of them. Just provides that bit more of a range threat for bolter shooting.

 

 

I already have 3 normal preds, yes.

 

I see, so your opponent already has three preds at AV13 to shoot at. That kind of takes up the whole heavy support section then, so the only other options would be Baal pred & furioso dreadnought for AV13 and you've stated a dislike for the Baals in this particular list.

 

 

No, the shots won't necessarily be aimed at the Razors straight off the bat. The reason is that the Typhoon speeders are easier to destroy than the Razors, and pack a lot of punch. So while some shots will be aimed at the Razor (those that can't realistically reach the Speeders), the enemy's long range, mid strength guns (autocannons, for example) should be aimed at the Speeders.

 

Do you think attack bikes could be effective as well? Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with your list it looks pretty good and it is one I certainly would try out but then I'm the kind of player who changes my list for every game to give me a bit of variety but I stilll like the list to be somewhat effective while doing this though.

 

At the moment though I don't have any Razorbacks or assault squads without jump packs (yeah, I know. I should have magnatised them) to try this out. I started playing back in the days when it was Rhino rush so I have four Rhinos overall. However I've come back to the game a couple of months ago and I'm expanding gradually my Blood Angels army anyway, so I may as well have a look and see whats making the rounds.

[knife&fork]

See, target priority is about making it hard for your opponent to decide what is best to shoot. Do I go for the Speeders that pack a mean punch and are easier to destroy than the Razors, or the Razors that are still a threat and are carrying melta troops? Remove the Speeders out of the equation, and you did the work for your opponent.

 

You just don't get it, do you? Not only are giving your opponent easier targets (because of the lower average AV), meaning greater return for all his shooting. You are also opening up S4 guns as a valid way for him to counter.

 

You said it yourself, 25% terrain. Fast hulls all around. You have the ability to limit his target selection by maneuvering and screening.

[Morticon]

See, target priority is about making it hard for your opponent to decide what is best to shoot. Do I go for the Speeders that pack a mean punch and are easier to destroy than the Razors, or the Razors that are still a threat and are carrying melta troops? Remove the Speeders out of the equation, and you did the work for your opponent.

 

You just don't get it, do you? Not only are giving your opponent easier targets (because of the lower average AV), meaning greater return for all his shooting. You are also opening up S4 guns as a valid way for him to counter.

 

You said it yourself, 25% terrain. Fast hulls all around. You have the ability to limit his target selection by maneuvering and screening.

 

 

I say you guys should take it to VASSAL.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I was thinking along the lines of no Meltagun in the squad. Just the Sarg having a combi-melta or something. The reason for this is to sacrifice the Meltagun for the longer range on the bolters instead and also the rapid fire ability for closer range. Like I said though, you may feel that losing the 35pt discount on the transport makes it unworkable and I was only suggesting this for one or two squads, not all of them. Just provides that bit more of a range threat for bolter shooting.

 

Two problems with that:

1) Single melta weapons are a big gamble. You are still missing 33% of the time, and usually, when you are in meltarange, you don’t want to be missing. That’s why whenever possible, you go for double meltas.

2) As you correctly pointed out, the loss of the discount is going to have a big effect. Multiplied 5 times = something else has got to go.

 

Do you think attack bikes could be effective as well? Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with your list it looks pretty good and it is one I certainly would try out but then I'm the kind of player who changes my list for every game to give me a bit of variety but I stilll like the list to be somewhat effective while doing this though.

 

Yes, attack bikes could work as well, though they don’t give you the immediate punch and suppression that the Typhoons give. BA are a little stuck for firesupport due to shooty dreads being Heavy Support instead of Elites. The Phoons are not my go-to choice usually, but here they make sense.

 

At the moment though I don't have any Razorbacks or assault squads without jump packs (yeah, I know. I should have magnatised them) to try this out. I started playing back in the days when it was Rhino rush so I have four Rhinos overall. However I've come back to the game a couple of months ago and I'm expanding gradually my Blood Angels army anyway, so I may as well have a look and see whats making the rounds.

 

I simply ripped off my jump packs and put some magnets in. It’s not as easy as when you do it from the get-go, but it’s doable.

 

You just don't get it, do you? Not only are giving your opponent easier targets (because of the lower average AV), meaning greater return for all his shooting. You are also opening up S4 guns as a valid way for him to counter.

 

No YOU don’t get it. It doesn’t matter that more of his shooting is able to influence more targets, because the important thing is for your Razors to stay alive. If that means the Speeders have to bite the dust, so be it. Taking Baals not only means your Razors are higher up on the target priority list, but it also cuts in to your AT firepower quite considerably. Which means less enemy tanks suppressed, which means more Razors dead. Also, S4 guns? How many S4 guns have a 48 inch range? Or just 36” for that matter? Really, S4 guns are a non issue.

 

You said it yourself, 25% terrain. Fast hulls all around. You have the ability to limit his target selection by maneuvering and screening.

 

How is that an argument for Baals exactly? If I am able to hide stuff like Razors on a map, why would I not be able to hide speeders as well?

[knife&fork]

No YOU don’t get it. It doesn’t matter that more of his shooting is able to influence more targets, because the important thing is for your Razors to stay alive. If that means the Speeders have to bite the dust, so be it. Taking Baals not only means your Razors are higher up on the target priority list, but it also cuts in to your AT firepower quite considerably. Which means less enemy tanks suppressed, which means more Razors dead. Also, S4 guns? How many S4 guns have a 48 inch range? Or just 36” for that matter? Really, S4 guns are a non issue.

 

How is that an argument for Baals exactly? If I am able to hide stuff like Razors on a map, why would I not be able to hide speeders as well?

 

If I want to go after your troops, I'll go after your troops. If you have speeders or predators doesn't matter because they fill similar roles, but at least it's going to be more difficult getting good fire on them if there is AV13 in front. Are you seriously suggesting that typhoon missile launchers are amazing at busting armor while tl assault cannons aren't? It's just 2 krak missiles.

 

Because you can use them to screen your razorbacks with AV13. Isn't that obvious? With the speeders the best you can do is a cover save.

[Deschenus Maximus]

If I want to go after your troops, I'll go after your troops.

 

Yep, and then you get pelted by 8 missiles a turn.

 

If you have speeders or predators doesn't matter because they fill similar roles, but at least it's going to be more difficult getting good fire on them if there is AV13 in front.

 

Which, as I have tried to explain, is not what you want. They just not an attractive target compared to your Razors (for S5-7 guns) and your normal Predators (S8-9-10 guns). So in the end you are just screwing your Razors over while not doing much to help your normal Preds.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that typhoon missile launchers are amazing at busting armor while tl assault cannons aren't? It's just 2 krak missiles.

 

Go run the math on that and you tell me which is better. I know I have.

 

Because you can use them to screen your razorbacks with AV13. Isn't that obvious? With the speeders the best you can do is a cover save.

 

Razors are never fully hidden from view behind a Pred except from directly ahead.

[knife&fork]

Yep, and then you get pelted by 8 missiles a turn.

 

Not a problem for any decent list. That's less than two dead rhino hulls on average, assuming no cover. It's certainly not nothing, but it's definitely something that can be ignored for a turn or two by the big guns to break your troop synergy.

 

Which, as I have tried to explain, is not what you want. They just not an attractive target compared to your Razors (for S5-7 guns) and your normal Predators (S8-9-10 guns). So in the end you are just screwing your Razors over while not doing much to help your normal Preds.

 

And I've tried to explain that it doesn't matter, if someone thinks your transports are worth taking out he'll fire at them. I wouldn't count on him taking the bait and going for the easier kill if your razorbacks are a higher priority.

You don't face an unlimited amount of high S guns. 6 AV13 and 6 AV11 targets are more survivable than 3 AV13, 6 AV11 and 4(3)AV10.

 

Go run the math on that and you tell me which is better. I know I have.

 

Depends on what results on the damage table you are interested in but if I remember correctly the typhoon ties or have a slight edge vs mid AV while being worse at everything else. I think that was compared to the normal assault cannon, so a twinlinked should edge out the typhoon. The important thing is that the TL-AC is not mounted on a AV10 vehicle.

 

 

Razors are never fully hidden from view behind a Pred except from directly ahead.

 

LoS situations are far to varied for absolute statements. Let's just say that you don't need total coverage, just a durable screen.

[Leksington]

If I want to go after your troops, I'll go after your troops.

 

Yep, and then you get pelted by 8 missiles a turn.

I suggested adding a net addition of 10 points to one Razorbacks (plus powerfist, minus infernus pistol).

 

You told me that your opponent would make that Razorback such a high priority that it would be killed first, and poopooed any suggestion that it could be made an inefficient shooting target for your opponent.

 

Your opponent didn't care about taking 8 missiles a turn then. Take away that 10 points, and all of a sudden your Razorbacks will survive because your opponent is worried about 8 missiles?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Not a problem for any decent list. That's less than two dead rhino hulls on average, assuming no cover. It's certainly not nothing, but it's definitely something that can be ignored for a turn or two by the big guns to break your troop synergy.

 

Well then I suppose our understanding of target priority is just different.

 

And I've tried to explain that it doesn't matter, if someone thinks your transports are worth taking out he'll fire at them. I wouldn't count on him taking the bait and going for the easier kill if your razorbacks are a higher priority.

 

Then it goes back to "what is the highest priority". Since we don't agree on that, we are at an impasse.

 

You don't face an unlimited amount of high S guns. 6 AV13 and 6 AV11 targets are more survivable than 3 AV13, 6 AV11 and 4(3)AV10.

 

But aside from being more survivable, the Baals just don't deliver the same punch offensively than the Typhoons will. And they still make the Razors and even more obvious target.

 

Depends on what results on the damage table you are interested in but if I remember correctly the typhoon ties or have a slight edge vs mid AV while being worse at everything else. I think that was compared to the normal assault cannon, so a twinlinked should edge out the typhoon.

 

Actually, the correct answer is: 4 Typhoons are better or equal at killing AV12 and under than 3 TLACs, and are better or equal at supressing AV 13 and under than 3 TLACs. Considering the fact that all but 1 race's transports are AV 12 or under, I know which one out of the two I would rather have. Especially since I already have 5 TLACs and 6 lascannons that can take care of the AV14 stuf. Oh and all those meltas.

 

The important thing is that the TL-AC is not mounted on a AV10 vehicle.

 

Again, not much help considering the Baals aren't going to get shot until all the TLAC Razors are destroyed/gunless.

 

LoS situations are far to varied for absolute statements. Let's just say that you don't need total coverage, just a durable screen.

 

To do what? Get a 4+ cover? Don't need the Baals to do that, the Razors can do that themselves.

 

I suggested adding a net addition of 10 points to one Razorbacks (plus powerfist, minus infernus pistol).

 

You told me that your opponent would make that Razorback such a high priority that it would be killed first, and poopooed any suggestion that it could be made an inefficient shooting target for your opponent.

 

Your opponent didn't care about taking 8 missiles a turn then. Take away that 10 points, and all of a sudden your Razorbacks will survive because your opponent is worried about 8 missiles?

 

Remember that I said "if you have a non-mech force, the fist is more scary". Non-mech forces have far less to worry about from 8 missiles than a mech force does. That is why the targe priority is not necessarily the same.

 

But for argument sake's, let's dig a bit deeper. Even if say your opponent decides that the Phoons are scarier than the Razors, and shoots them first. The fist squad is still going to sit at a higher priority then the melta squads once all the Phoons have been suppressed or destroyed. Ergo, the fist squad is still going to eat it before the melta squads. Thus, my argument is not invalidated by what I have been saying about the Typhoons.