Is Abaddon a failure?

[maverike_prime]

So I was reading the Eye of Terror Codex last night for nostalgia's sake and I remembered how a lot of people have called Abaddon "Failaddon" a fair amount, referencing the prior 12 Black Crusades and claiming they failed. Well the more I was thinking about it the more I find it hard to really agree with that for one simple reason: To my knowledge we can't confirm what was Abaddon's goal in the respective black crusades. I've heard people claim that one of the Crusades was started so he could claim the Demon sword he now uses. Well if that was his objective then the crusade was success. For my money, it's hard to call Abaddon a failure for the simple fact that he is the only being to have brought the 9 traitor legions and the 4 major chaos powers under a single banner not once, but 13 times. Once you do that, I kind of find it hard to call Abaddon a failure. So, you're thoughts?

 

And no, this is not intended as "Abadon sucks" thread or a discussion about how to change his rules in the game.

[Visitor13]

No, he isn'a a failure. Cadia's basically fallen. And as for the previous crusades, he had as much success in them as an Imperium-focused GW would ever allow him. That is, not that much, though again, not that little.

 

That said, if GW were to flesh out the initial twelve crusades, there would still be room for an overarching plan that would make Abaddon look better than he does now. First crusade, beaten back by Dorn and possibly some of the other Primarchs - no shame in that. Cadia fortified as a reaction - perhaps by Dorn himself? Second one, failed assault against a full-strength Cadian system. Again, no shame in this. The next ten - a slow, methodical isolating of Cadia (there's already a hint of this in the present Black Crusade fluff) with the perspective that another head-on assault makes no sense as long as Cadia is in good shape. And finally, 13th Black Crusade, a massive and successful assault against a much weakened Cadia.

 

There's also the matter of the Black Legion's dominance over the other Legions. Again, much room for Abaddon to shine here. First subduing the broken Emperor's Children and World Eaters following Skalathrax; then gradually building up the strenght to teach the other Legions to heel.

[Artein]

We're in exactly the same situation at the moment, I think. I'm casting about for a Traitor force, asking myself the same questions. Though, in this instance, I think I have some answers that might help. At least, they work for me. The "poster boys" aspect is drawn from their current strength as the most powerful Legion, and their all-inclusive theme that allows them to make easy (and canonical) use of all their codex options. And conversely, I find those the least interesting things about the Legion.

 

The Black Legion are the absolute embodiment of an Astartes force rising from the edge of extinction. They're unique in that aspect - where all the other Legions are enduring a slow decline, the Black Legion have risen from almost complete destruction to ascendancy over the Traitor Legions. Most of this is down to Abaddon, and whether you'd use him or not, having Traitor Astartes sworn to him can be pretty cool. As leaders go, he's an interesting one. It's not all about being the best, and being right all the time. It's about interesting flaws shaping a character.

 

I know you know all this, but I'm going to wax lyrical anyhow. To battle.

 

The daemon primarchs have very little interest in the actions of the Traitor Legions, these days. Established canon tells us they're mostly engaged in the Great Game for their gods (and for Chaos as a gestalt pantheon), and it seems the physicality of war - of invading the Imperium - is sort of... beneath them. In a sense, they no longer care. They operate on spheres of consciousness far above the need to kill people and claim territory. Leadership of the scattered Traitor Legions has fallen to charismatic and bitter Astartes - and the epitome of those is Abaddon. He's Warmaster of Chaos, blessed by the Ruinous Powers as the one to herald the downfall of the Imperium. He's, in a very real sense, the Antichrist of 40K. He's the one humans whisper about in fear: The Despoiler, Warmaster of Chaos, the "clone son" of Horus who threatens them all. That's how scared of him the Imperium actually is: they consider him Horus's cloned son. The Devil's progeny.

 

And that's all kinds of awesome. The physical threat has fallen to the second generation, as it were.

 

The Sons of Horus suffered immensely during and after the Scouring. While the other Legions slowly fractured or gradually degraded due to infighting in the Eye of Terror, the Sons of Horus suffered direct attacks from their former brothers more than any other Legion. They were hated, hunted, preyed upon by the others as a failure beyond any other Legion, and their primarch's death was clear proof. Once hailed as the finest Legion, now a poor joke. They scattered and died, inch by inch, day by day.

 

Abaddon was the one to turn this around. He launched an assault on the Emperor's Children fortress where legend has it, the III Legion were attempting to clone the Warmaster. Abaddon, wearing the Talon of Horus (in a clear example of "I'm the heir, not your genetic abomination"), ended that plot, and set about rebuilding the Legion. I'd imagine it was much like the popular image of the Mongol tribes coming together under the Khans: "We've beaten your warband, so join us or be destroyed." And obviously, more and more chose to join. His army swelled.

 

Then comes the crucial moment. Abaddon stands at the head of a united Legion, and decides to confront the other Traitors. He casts aside the failures of the past, saying that they will no longer bear the shame of being Horus's sons. They reconsecrate their armour - the Sons of Horus no more - now standing as the Black Legion.

 

This achieved, Abaddon declares a crusade - the crusade - against the Imperium. The infighting within the thousands of systems contained inside the Eye of Terror will never end, but here was the first leader to rise up and declare war on the Imperium again, in a consolidated, unified crusade. It wasn't about fighting to survive inside the Eye anymore, or occasional raids led by a charismatic leader or the increasingly rare appearance of a daemon primarch with no real goals. Abaddon declared that the eternal war had to be resumed, and the Imperium bled worse than it had since the Horus Heresy. That's what each of these Black Crusades is: We laugh and say "Teehee, he failed again", but he's achieving goals we may not know about. The Imperium doesn't laugh at Black Crusades. The Imperium regards them as the worst threat since the Horus Heresy, and millions upon millions die every time Abaddon declares one.

 

He declares the war's resumption, and the Imperium comes to know it as the Black Crusade - that's how grave it is. Abaddon spills from the Eye at the head of a united Chaos Marine war host, with armies of daemons, and beneath the Tower of Silence on Uralan, he claims what is surely one of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy: Drach'nyen, a sword with a daemon's soul that literally rends reality apart. The Imperium is left reeling, and manages to defeat the Chaos forces, but that doesn't matter. Abaddon waged that war for the sword, and he got what he wanted.

 

And in the years since, he's bloodied the Imperium worse than any other outside force. His new flagship, the Planet Killer, can destroy entire worlds on his whim. His last crusade saw him even gain footholds (and kill billions around) Cadia itself: the most heavily-defended world in the Imperium except Holy Terra. Again, people laugh that he failed. But the Imperium's not laughing when their toughest fortress world burns, and they came close to losing. If they'd lost the 13th Black Crusade, the way to Terra would have been open, and signs point to the Imperium literally falling if Cadia is lost. Those are the realities as seen by the people living in the universe, who don't get to giggle that "he couldn't even take one planet", which you see a fair amount of online. Perspective, etc.

 

EDIT: It's not like Codex: Space Marines suddenly claiming the Ultramarines are the best, honest, really, they totally are. The Black Legion are in a strong position, but not because they're "just better than everyone else". They have cool reasons for their ascendancy, and they worked hard for it. It doesn't devalue any other Traitor Legion, or lessen their storylines and themes.

 

So that's the appeal, at least for me. The Black Legion have the lows, the highs, the membership/personality variation and the unrivaled bitterness that makes them awesomely characterful as an army.

 

...unfortunately, I can't paint the Eye of Horus very well. So...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2305732

[Kol Saresk]

Here's the way I look at it, he has Drach'nyen, he has the Talon of Horus, he has the Planetkiller and IIRC there is a strong possibility that he has two Blackstone Fortresses still if they survived the self-destruct protocol that hit the other four. And according to the fluff from BL, Cadia is still suffering from the 13th Crusade as Guard reinforcements are heading there all the way from Ultramar.(Dead Sky, Black Sun) And it more appears that he is simply consolidating his forces before his next push.(Soul Hunter and Dark Mechanicus) SoI would agree that while Abaddon has become the poster boy of Chaos, he is not a failure.

[Solid Zaku]

One way to look at it is that the Crusades are not each individual failures. They are instead a Tzeentch-grade plot with (thusfar) thirteen elements uncovered. Could it go up to 36? Who can say? Although it will likely be during a year consecutive with one of Tzeentch's favored numbers. For those of you following at home, that means we have to wait until the eighteenth Black Crusade before Abaddon gets grooving over to the big boogie joint on Terra.

 

Either that, or he's been so badly attrited that he no longer has the manpower to sustain prolonged combats against the inexhaustible Imperial forces, and must now rely solely on his Death St...erm, Planet Killer and BSF's in order to attain victory.

[Spacefrisian]

I think the real problem is with chaos itself, one of their most favourite things to do is fighting amongst themselves, Abaddon might be able to unite them, but sooner or later their will be a Lord that thinks he knows better. Resulting in infighting of Abaddon ranks.

[Kol Saresk]

Which will then be crushed by Abaddon breaking wind in the traitor's general direction.

[Subtle Discord]

And then Abaddon would stomp on said Lord and scatter them to the winds. I suspect Abaddon rules the Legion with brutal efficiency, and wouldn't tolerate infighting within his ranks. If they want to squabble outside of the Legion, he could care less, unless it directly effect his ambitions.

 

Edit: Beat me to the punch Kol_Saresk, but I'll accept it since you did it so humorously. ;)

[maverike_prime]

And then Abaddon would stomp on said Lord and scatter them to the winds. I suspect Abaddon rules the Legion with brutal efficiency, and wouldn't tolerate infighting within his ranks. If they want to squabble outside of the Legion, he could care less, unless it directly effect his ambitions.

 

Edit: Beat me to the punch Kol_Saresk, but I'll accept it since you did it so humorously. ;)

 

I donno. Somehow I've had the impression that Abadon wouldn't care about infighting so long as he has sufficent resources to conduct his operations. Like if he wants a group of 100 berzerkers to spear head an assault, he's not going to care if 75 other berzerkers were killed before the assault, just so long as there are 100 berzerkers in the assault.

[Kol Saresk]

That would normally be a reasonable assumption. As long as he gets what he wants, he doesn't care what happens. But in Battlefleet Gothic, IIRC there is a rule about using Abaddon. He grants any ship that fails a leadership roll a re-roll. But if they fail that re-roll then his ship will open fire on the ship that lost the re-roll until it is destroyed if I remember correctly. After that, every other ship in the fleet gains +1 Leadership. Or something like that. Anyway the point is that infighting is normally a result of weak leadership. And since he despises weakness, he will not most likely tolerate infighting within his ranks as it carries the possibility to disrupt his plans. Therefore his quickest and most logical course of action would be to crush it, even if it meant losing a great deal of manpower in the process so that no one else would get the idea to try.

[A D-B]

Oh, wow. An old quote up there, but it's (mostly) still on the level, though I'd rephrase a few things.

 

Specifically, I'd reinforce the nature of the 13th Black Crusade, and Black Crusades in general.

 

The 13th Black Crusade was launched in order to allow Chaos into the Imperium, no longer almost completely blocked by Cadia. It was about breaking the dam, not to just say "LOL LET'S GO TO TERRA!", but to change the very dynamics of Chaos and the Imperium. The Chaos Marine can now sail fleets into Imperial space much, much, much easier than ever before. The dam is broken. The Crusade's goals were achieved. As far as I know, that's the current deal. The subject is confused by poor phrasing and general online assumptions clouding the issue.

 

But a crusade is a crusade. That sounds obvious, but a lot of people miss the relevance of the word, and the intent of the warrior declaring it. Anyone thinking a single Black Crusade was to take Terra, or see the Golden Throne fall, is probably missing the point. After all, historically, crusades weren't declared to conquer the whole world, or to wipe out all of Islam. They were, variously, declared to recover territory; to take Constantinople; to capture and/or sack a certain city; with heavy side orders of political, social and financial gain. A crusade is a campaign targeted at achieving a certain goal - one that, say, requires a massive army.

 

To take the "Abaddon is the thematic Antichrist" trope one step further, the forces of Hell never "just appear and take over the world". Even with the Rapture, there's supposed to be years of war on Earth between angels and demons. To the Imperium, that's just happened. The Astronomican blinks on and off now, losing thousands of vessels in the warp, and the Golden Throne is failing. We have events called things like "The Night of a Thousand Rebellions". And Cadia, the unbreakable fortress world that guarded the Eye, was cracked open and the dam is broken: Because of Abaddon's last crusade, Chaos fleets enter the Imperium practically unopposed now, compared to how it's been the last 10,000 years.

 

The reason there's no 14th Black Crusade is because there no longer needs to be. The gates are open. The Gates of Hell, literally, are broken open. Chaos Marines are basically free, like never before, to do as they please. And to assume "They all totally want to kill the Emperor" is a wild, wild miscalculation. There's nothing to say most of them these days, after years / centuries / millennia in Hell, give a toss about the Emperor. Most published lore we have cites Chaos Marines concerned with their own amassing of power, wealth and renown, rather than in idealistic campaigns to destroy the Imperium. How many warbands want nothing more than a weak enemy to prey upon? Countless, countless numbers of them. Especially in Legions like the Night Lords. The Gates of Hell being open is pretty much exactly what they wanted. Their goals are achieved.

 

That's not to say they don't want the Emperor / Imperium to fall. It's just that that's a background theme to most of their lives, given their other interests, desires, allegiances and obsessions. It's a great overall objective, but doesn't apply to daily existence. That can be hard to grasp if all you ever see Chaos Marines as are essentially models based on stereotypes of Legions, but as a living, breathing soldier spending eternity in Hell, things would get a little different.

 

One of the core themes of 40K has always seemed to be "Every single one of these enemy races could (or probably will) wipe out the Imperium if they sped up and/or got their crap together". And as befits the end of the Dark Millennium, Chaos is one of them. The One, in fact. The greatest threat, but also because they're the enemy within, as well as the threat from without.

 

So, no. Abaddon isn't a failure. He's only a failure in, well, the "frequently espoused by younger player" terms of believing he wants to take Terra, and all anyone like him could be interested in was "Just killing the Emperor". Bit of a shallow overlook, that.

[Gree]

So, no. Abaddon isn't a failure. He's only a failure in, well, the "frequently espoused by younger player" terms of believing he wants to take Terra, and all anyone like him could be interested in was "Just killing the Emperor". Bit of a shallow overlook, that.

 

Well I’ve seen Talos himself express something similar to that effect to Abbadon’s own face. And yes, I know you like to write scenes as ambiguous, but I’ve seen many people walk away from reading Soul Hunter with their negative opinions of Abbadon reinforced. It’s even on TV Tropes the last time I checked.

 

And I’ve seen the opinion expressed by other Black Library characters. Honsou makes a degradtory comment about Abbadon in Iron Warrior and Marduk and Erebus discuss something similar to that near the end about Dark Disciple about Abbadon’s weakness.

[Chengar Qordath]

So, no. Abaddon isn't a failure. He's only a failure in, well, the "frequently espoused by younger player" terms of believing he wants to take Terra, and all anyone like him could be interested in was "Just killing the Emperor". Bit of a shallow overlook, that.

 

Well I’ve seen Talos himself express something similar to that effect to Abbadon’s own face. And yes, I know you like to write scenes as ambiguous, but I’ve seen many people walk away from reading Soul Hunter with their negative opinions of Abbadon reinforced. It’s even on TV Tropes the last time I checked.

 

And I’ve seen the opinion expressed by other Black Library characters. Honsou makes a degradtory comment about Abbadon in Iron Warrior and Marduk and Erebus discuss something similar to that near the end about Dark Disciple about Abbadon’s weakness.

Abaddon's enemies/rivals aren't going to give an unbiased account of his successes/failures.

 

Personally, I thought Abaddon's response to Talos in Soul Hunter was a pretty solid refutation. Sure, Talos might call him a failure, but Talos knows almost nothing about Abaddon's true goals or what he hoped to accomplish with his Black Crusades.

[Gree]

Abaddon's enemies/rivals aren't going to give an unbiased account of his successes/failures.

 

Personally, I thought Abaddon's response to Talos in Soul Hunter was a pretty solid refutation. Sure, Talos might call him a failure, but Talos knows almost nothing about Abaddon's true goals or what he hoped to accomplish with his Black Crusades.

 

The problem is that is the view that is presented by the protagonist characters, a view that supports a common misconception.

 

If you have ever visited TV Tropes Abbadon is placed under the title of “General Failure” without a hint of irony. 4chan is much the same (As well as the place where the meme originated.) In my personal experience, visiting sites like 4chan, DakkaDakka and Spacebattles, the general consensus is is not “Abbadon has a valid point” but “LOL, Talos called Failbaddon out.”

[A D-B]

So, no. Abaddon isn't a failure. He's only a failure in, well, the "frequently espoused by younger player" terms of believing he wants to take Terra, and all anyone like him could be interested in was "Just killing the Emperor". Bit of a shallow overlook, that.

 

Well I’ve seen Talos himself express something similar to that effect to Abbadon’s own face. And yes, I know you like to write scenes as ambiguous, but I’ve seen many people walk away from reading Soul Hunter with their negative opinions of Abbadon reinforced. It’s even on TV Tropes the last time I checked.

 

No, definitely. But Talos is presented, constantly, as a very biased guy, and deep into self-deception when it comes to his Legion and its dealings (as shown in many scenes where he argues with his brothers over their differing opinions) and even in that scene, no matter what Talos is saying, Abaddon is pretty much just bored of the whole moment - it's beneath him, and he's doing a small favour for another warlord.

 

Even so, I wrote that years ago. I wasn't entirely aware back then of how often 40K readers will take prose as the author's voice, or as unbiased commentary. I'd have written that scene differently if I'd done it now. Talos has no respect for Abaddon, because Talos is an idealistic front-line grunt who does just want to tear down the Emperor, without really acknowledging (until later) that it's not a realistic goal from where he's standing.

[Playa]

Hey,

 

I’ve seen Talos himself express something similar to that effect to Abbadon’s own face

 

Yikes! Quite a thread ...

 

I'd just add that 40k is a *fictional setting*, not a documentary - or any other sort of narrative.

Abaddon fought the Imperium, fights the Imperium and WILL ALWAYS BE fighting the IoM.

(Well, as long as there's a buck to be made selling little statues of him, anyway.)

 

There are few canon "failures" of certain fictional entities, but the onus there falls on *real developers*.

Any IC or even race, would "fail" if publicly dismissed as Nid Scat by uncreative "content creators".

I refer, of course, to the Sq

[Legatus]

The reason there's no 14th Black Crusade is because there no longer needs to be.

Well... that the next Black Crusade would be somewhere around 800.M42 might have something to do with that as well.

 

 

We do know that at least one of the earlier Black Crusades had failed. Stopped in it's tracks by Rogal Dorn's sacrifice. (IA:IF)

[Aqui]

From a personal view point, I feel that Abaddon hasn't failed. Why? He might not have always achieved his objectives, which as has been said, not known in most Crusades, but the fact that he's still alive after each and every one thus far says a lot. The Imperium wants him dead. He's the figurehead, the successor of Horus, and until he's gone, the Traitor Legions will be as untied as they will ever be. For the IoM to beat him the only way is to kill him. It would create a power vacuum, and have everyone from Huron onwards, fighting to take his place. That would at least give the IoM a bit of breathing room and try to take back territory lost.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's the other thing, every time the Imperium has faced the Black Crusades, they have done it with a new and fresh army that is simply using the same technology since the Guilliman Reforms. Abaddon has had the same exact core army thirteen times. And more and more allies join him every time. Every crusade, something new is unleashed. There is no need for Chaos to take Terra. Like A-D-B said, with the Gates to Hell thrown wide open, it will happen in due time. The ultimate goal of Chaos has been reached; an entire galaxy thrown in turmoil.

[Aqui]

Here's the other thing, every time the Imperium has faced the Black Crusades, they have done it with a new and fresh army that is simply using the same technology since the Guilliman Reforms. Abaddon has had the same exact core army thirteen times. And more and more allies join him every time. Every crusade, something new is unleashed. There is no need for Chaos to take Terra. Like A-D-B said, with the Gates to Hell thrown wide open, it will happen in due time. The ultimate goal of Chaos has been reached; an entire galaxy thrown in turmoil.

 

And of course, on every world set up on, the seeds of Doubt and corruption are sown, so every Imperial World attacked potentially suffers more than once.....

[Kol Saresk]

Exactly. Look at Cadia. Once the shining light of hope that the Imperium would never again have to close the Gates to Hell. But the last I heard, while the skies above Cadia were clear, Cadia itself was still fending off the servants of Chaos that had been "abandoned" on its surface. It survived relatively unscathed twelves times. It was the staging point for "defeating" the forces of Chaos twelve times. And now, it is still defending itself from a constant attack this long after the Thirteenth Black Crusade and because of that, the Cadian Gate itself is wide open, even though that one shining beacon of hope is still standing, waiting to be consumed by the approaching darkness.

[Gree]

Exactly. Look at Cadia. Once the shining light of hope that the Imperium would never again have to close the Gates to Hell. But the last I heard, while the skies above Cadia were clear, Cadia itself was still fending off the servants of Chaos that had been "abandoned" on its surface. It survived relatively unscathed twelves times. It was the staging point for "defeating" the forces of Chaos twelve times. And now, it is still defending itself from a constant attack this long after the Thirteenth Black Crusade and because of that, the Cadian Gate itself is wide open, even though that one shining beacon of hope is still standing, waiting to be consumed by the approaching darkness.

 

You realize that whoever controls the orbit controls the high ground right? The Imperium can simply cut off supplies and reinforcements to Abbadon’s troops on the surface, bombard them from orbit when the opportunity presents itself and ship in their own reinforcements when they need to.

 

Controlling Cadia means little if you don’t control the space around it and can’t actually get off.

 

But as an additional point the Cain novels evidently have the Imperium surviving perfectly well after the 13th Black Crusade with excepts from books published well into M42.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't realize they controlled the surface, just that they left troops on te surface which is continually weakening Cadia's infrastructure. That means the next time they attack Cadia, they just have to take control of the orbital lanes of Cadia. The surface battle will already be won as soon as the skies are open and supply lines are reopened.

[Gree]

I didn't realize they controlled the surface, just that they left troops on te surface which is continually weakening Cadia's infrastructure. That means the next time they attack Cadia, they just have to take control of the orbital lanes of Cadia. The surface battle will already be won as soon as the skies are open and supply lines are reopened.

 

But that would never happen as it should be very easy for the Imperium to send a fleet to Cadia and retake the place if they control the skies.

 

I note that Cadia itself has not been attacked twelve times. At least one of those, the 12th, was directed at the Gothic sector, and that was only a partial success at best, with Abbadon being driven back by the Eldar and the Imperium with only some of the Blackstone Fortresses at his command, the same Blackstones that were lost in the 13th Black Crusade, pretty much nullifying Abbadon’s efforts in the 12th.

[Kol Saresk]

But at what cost will the Imperium retake Cadia? Didn't they have to bleed just to recapture the skies? Didn't he also build a new Planet Killer? So there is obviously a decent amount of resources within the Eye. And unlike the Imperials, Abaddon actually knew how to use the BSFs. And he had them long enough for the Dark Mechanicum to study their designs. For all we know, he is building some new BSFs. As it has been pointed out, we don't know what his goals were during the Crusades and whether or not they have been achieved. For all we know, he achieved his objectives for the Gothic War and then tried to do some extra work and that is what got him beat. We simply do not know and it actually looks like maybe even GW doesn't know. Yet. Or if they do then they are doing a very good job of keeping it that way.