Is Abaddon a failure?

[Gree]

But at what cost will the Imperium retake Cadia?

 

Logically? Rather little if they have orbital superiority already in place. Massed orbital bombardment and air strikes on the forces below not protected by any kind of anti-orbital defenses followed by starving out the Chaos forces of food, supplies and weapons. Then ship in your renforcements and take them out.

 

I say should because there have been many times in 40k fluff were people don't use orbital superioirty the way it should be.

 

Didn't they have to bleed just to recapture the skies?

 

And now they control them, effectively giving them a “I win” button on the defenseless infantry on the ground.

 

Didn't he also build a new Planet Killer? So there is obviously a decent amount of resources within the Eye.

 

Well there is a decent amount of resources in the Imperium as well. the fact that Chaos is often forced to scavenge from Imperial equipment should give you a good idea of how they compare in industrial output.

 

And unlike the Imperials, Abaddon actually knew how to use the BSFs.

 

Yes, that worked out so well for him in the 13th Black Crusade didn’t they?

 

Well actually no, they didn’t. They kinda failed and were destroyed.

 

And he had them long enough for the Dark Mechanicum to study their designs. For all we know, he is building some new BSFs.

 

They are incredibly anchient and complex Eldar weaponry. The Imperium has had them for ten millennia and can’t figure it out and they have stuff Chaos doesn’t have. I really think you are overestimating the production ability of Chaos.

 

For all we know, he achieved his objectives for the Gothic War and then tried to do some extra work and that is what got him beat. We simply do not know and it actually looks like maybe even GW doesn't know. Yet. Or if they do then they are doing a very good job of keeping it that way.

 

We already knew his objectives. Abbadon wanted the Blackstones. He only got two of them and defeated in battle and forced to retreat to the Eye with the Imperium harassing his fleets every step of the way.

 

That doesn’t scream a major success to me. It's a partial sucess at best.

 

But we have a lot of maybes. Maybe Abbadon has some super secret plan that we don’t know about. Maybe Abbadon has a million secret Planet Killers. Maybe Abbadon is Superman. We don’t know. But we can judge on his current performance and the twin defeats that sent him fleeing back to the Eye with the victorious Imperium recapturing their damaged worlds in the gothic Sector and rebuilding most of them.

 

I'm not saying Abbadon is a failure, I'm play black Legion after all, but the Gothic Crusade is not what I would call a sucess.

[Trevak Dal]

I think Big A has a long way to go before he feels like he's accomplished his goals. One of the worst things I think GW could do to Big A's character is make him a Daemon Prince (same with Khârn too), because at the end of the day-he used to be a human being or at least close (if he was cloned)

[maverike_prime]

And unlike the Imperials, Abaddon actually knew how to use the BSFs.

 

Yes, that worked out so well for him in the 13th Black Crusade didn’t they?

 

Well actually no, they didn’t. They kinda failed and were destroyed.

 

4 of the 6 were destroyed. 3 of those destroyed were the one's controlled by the Imperium. Final controlling count: Abaddon Controls 2 Blackstones. The Imperium controls 0.

 

And he had them long enough for the Dark Mechanicum to study their designs. For all we know, he is building some new BSFs.

 

They are incredibly anchient and complex Eldar weaponry. The Imperium has had them for ten millennia and can’t figure it out and they have stuff Chaos doesn’t have. I really think you are overestimating the production ability of Chaos.

 

The Imperium had them for 7,000 years not 10. And Studying Xenos tech (They are supposedly Eldar in origin, but regardless they were not built by mankind) is a major no-no in the imperium. So assuming that the imperium studied them to any degree greater then what is needed to add the landing bays man-made systems is a bit of a stretch. Chaos aligned Mechanicus however have no such compunction about studying Xeno Tech.

 

For all we know, he achieved his objectives for the Gothic War and then tried to do some extra work and that is what got him beat. We simply do not know and it actually looks like maybe even GW doesn't know. Yet. Or if they do then they are doing a very good job of keeping it that way.

 

We already knew his objectives. Abbadon wanted the Blackstones. He only got two of them and defeated in battle and forced to retreat to the Eye with the Imperium harassing his fleets every step of the way.

 

That doesn’t scream a major success to me. It's a partial sucess at best.

 

Let's see: imperium lost a sizable portion of it's Gothic fleet. Eldrad got eaten. And Abaddon now controls the only two remaining Blackstone fortresses. Not seeing this as a partial success. I'm seeing this as Abaddon won by virtue of the fact he had more pieces on the board.

 

But we can judge on his current performance and the twin defeats that sent him fleeing back to the Eye with the victorious Imperium recapturing their damaged worlds in the gothic Sector and rebuilding most of them.

 

I'm not saying Abbadon is a failure, I'm play black Legion after all, but the Gothic Crusade is not what I would call a sucess.

 

The problem with that statement is again the Imperium considered those engagements to be they defeated Abadon's forces. If Abaddon lead a force to attack a fortress to claim an artifact the fortress' defenders didn't know they were sitting on, and he breaches their defenses, kills hundreds, takes the artifact and then leaves... to the defenders it could easily appear that they beat Abaddon back when in truth he had no further reason to stay.

 

But the problem is we aren't told why Abaddon attacked the fortress. Merely that he did attack it and later left it. You can argue it as the Defenders beat him back, or you can say he chose to leave. Without knowing about the artifact, it goes either way.

 

The Imperium is a vast entity in the universe. And no single operation by any current military force can make an attack on Terra. To lead a campaign that would see him putting troops on Terra, Abaddon needs supply routes, stockpiles of supplies, ready supplies troops, and weapons. On a planetary level the operations to obtain these are carried out in week long operations. On a solar level it's months long or even year long operations. To carry out the objectives on a galexy level.... You're talking years for each step. Cadia is/was the most heavily fortified world in the Imperium outside of Terra itself. Any direct attack against it at it's optimum (pre-black crusades) would have been futile as the system should be able to repeal sieges for decades if not longer. 20-30 years is more then enough time to bring in reinforcements from other systems to cut off enemy supply lines and break offensives.

 

So Chaos would have to work in stages. Cutting off supply lines, limiting corridors of access, taking outlining planets to garrison troops, Attacking convoys to divert supplies, ect. Such operations would take months to years to accomplish. So once again, if one assumes the outright goal of each Black Crusade was to destroy Terra then yes they have all failed. However, I find it extremely hard to justify that the Black Crusades were waged to carry out that goal. To facillitate it, yes. That I can understand. But not as a goal of the crusade itself.

[Trevak Dal]

Also, we have to consider that every death (friendly, and enemy) involved in a Black Crusade likely acts as a sacrifice to the gods-perhaps giving Abaddon further favor. So even the "failures" are successes in disguise...

[Gree]

4 of the 6 were destroyed. 3 of those destroyed were the one's controlled by the Imperium. Final controlling count: Abaddon Controls 2 Blackstones. The Imperium controls 0.

 

The Blackstones were not of much use ot the Imperium in that war anyway. But it does not change the fact that Abbadon went into the gothic sector to capture the Blackstones and only got two before he was chased out.

 

The Imperium had them for 7,000 years not 10. And Studying Xenos tech (They are supposedly Eldar in origin, but regardless they were not built by mankind) is a major no-no in the imperium.

 

Well the Ordo Xenos does study xenos tech and uses it, if nothing else to understand how to better kill xenos. But If the Blackstones are completely unknown to the Imperium then I doubt Chaos will have much success in building more of them.

 

Let's see: imperium lost a sizable portion of it's Gothic fleet. Eldrad got eaten. And Abaddon now controls the only two remaining Blackstone fortresses. Not seeing this as a partial success. I'm seeing this as Abaddon won by virtue of the fact he had more pieces on the board.

 

Where does it say that Abbadon had more pieces on board? The chaos fleet was said to have been virtually annihilated at Gethesmane with more being lost as the victorious Imperial harassed Abbadon’s fleet all the way back to the Eye.

 

And Eldrad was eaten during the 13th Black Crusade in the same action that deactivated the Blackstones that Abbadon controlled.

The problem with that statement is again the Imperium considered those engagements to be they defeated Abadon's forces. If Abaddon lead a force to attack a fortress to claim an artifact the fortress' defenders didn't know they were sitting on, and he breaches their defenses, kills hundreds, takes the artifact and then leaves... to the defenders it could easily appear that they beat Abaddon back when in truth he had no further reason to stay.

 

Well if the defenders deny him over half of what he sought to take, defeated him in two big battles after he attacked them and send the battered remnants of his fleet scurrying back to their home, then I would not call that a victory for the attacker. No sir.

 

Made worse by the fact that he could have destroyed Port Maw and really crippled the Imperium had he used the Planet Killer at the onset of the war to warp into the system and destroy the planet (the Planbet Killer’s gun outranging a nova cannon) thus crippling the Imperial war effort. Instead he used it and the blackstones on civilian targets of little value.

 

So Chaos would have to work in stages. Cutting off supply lines, limiting corridors of access, taking outlining planets to garrison troops, Attacking convoys to divert supplies, ect. Such operations would take months to years to accomplish. So once again, if one assumes the outright goal of each Black Crusade was to destroy Terra then yes they have all failed. However, I find it extremely hard to justify that the Black Crusades were waged to carry out that goal. To facillitate it, yes. That I can understand. But not as a goal of the crusade itself.

 

I am well aware that the objectives of the Crusades was supposedly to prepare, but then we get statements like this from the Eye of Terror Newsletter:

 

‘At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man”

He succeeded, it just took him twelve tries to do so.

[Kol Saresk]

True. But not all of the forces of Chaos scavenge off the Imperium. The Red Corsairs don't, not amymore at least. They do it to tick off the Imperium. If they were fighting to stay alive, then I think they would have refused repairs to a warband with a heavily damaged ship that had messed with them in the past. The Word Bearers have at least one entire Forgeworld that belongs wholly to them. The Planet Killer had to be built at some sort of shipyard. And I know there is at least one Forgeworld just outside the Eye under the control Chaos and the Iron Warriors fortified what was it, the Planet of Steel to the point that even other Chaos forces are kind of scared to attack. There is also the Forge of Souls that chugs out daemon machines on a regular basis. And Medrengard even seems to be something of a perverted forge world going off the fact of how much industry is going on there.

 

And there is the fact that they launched thirteen crusades. Just one massive assault requires a massive amount of respurces. Just look at how much the Imperium has to spend.

 

And I don't think they could afford to just bombard entire parts of Cadia. It isn't the feral world the Word Bearers first came to. It is a fortress world and the most defended one at that. If the Renegades are smart( of course we're talking about well-trained super soldiers here so that may or may not be the case) they will hole up in a strategically important place. It will end up requiring a massed army to move them out. And since the Imperium is just content keeping the Renegades in a hole away from the rest the world, as long as they can contain them, they will be happy. So they may or may not be starved out. But the Imperium is constantly being attacked on every side as well as rebellions from within. So if the next Battlefleet Gothic gets wiped out, it may not be as easy to reclaim Cadia's orbit. Look at Dark Adeptus by Ben Counter. In it, a small portion of the naval fleet is sent to contain the situation on a forgeworld that was spat out of the warp. It was considered a priority objective. The Imperial fleet was made up of one war-grade ship as well as two ships that were no more than merchant ships that had weapons slapped onto them. Meanwhile the token Chaos fleet went to the same forgeworld to merely pick up a gift for the Despoiler was made up of three other ships. One was a well known battleship. Another was a fighter carrier with limited weapons. The last was a daemonship. The Imperial Fleet was wiped out. Totally and utterly. And this was during the Crusade. Abaddon was able to send out one of his own champions and a heavily-armed scouting fleet out while fighting the fleet above Cadia for a side trip while the Imperials saw it as an even more important objective. So I would say that Chaos seems to be the more well-supported out of the two sides.

[Gree]

True. But not all of the forces of Chaos scavenge off the Imperium. The Red Corsairs don't, not amymore at least. They do it to tick off the Imperium. If they were fighting to stay alive, then I think they would have refused repairs to a warband with a heavily damaged ship that had messed with them in the past. The Word Bearers have at least one entire Forgeworld that belongs wholly to them. The Planet Killer had to be built at some sort of shipyard. And I know there is at least one Forgeworld just outside the Eye under the control Chaos and the Iron Warriors fortified what was it, the Planet of Steel to the point that even other Chaos forces are kind of scared to attack. There is also the Forge of Souls that chugs out daemon machines on a regular basis. And Medrengard even seems to be something of a perverted forge world going off the fact of how much industry is going on there.

 

They have a couple of traitor forge worlds. The Imperium likely has more, considering the average Guardsman is probably better equipped than your average cultist.

 

And there is the fact that they launched thirteen crusades. Just one massive assault requires a massive amount of respurces. Just look at how much the Imperium has to spend.

 

And the Imperium replaces them and usually returns to status quo. I really doubt Abbadon can recoup losses as easily as the Imperium’s industrial might.

 

And I don't think they could afford to just bombard entire parts of Cadia. It isn't the feral world the Word Bearers first came to. It is a fortress world and the most defended one at that. If the Renegades are smart( of course we're talking about well-trained super soldiers here so that may or may not be the case) they will hole up in a strategically important place.

 

They can hit everywhere else with orbital strikes and air support.

 

will end up requiring a massed army to move them out. And since the Imperium is just content keeping the Renegades in a hole away from the rest the world, as long as they can contain them, they will be happy.

 

If the renegades are cut off and surrounded, befit of supplies, then that’s a good thing for the Imperium. It means they are not much of a threat at the moment.

 

So they may or may not be starved out. But the Imperium is constantly being attacked on every side as well as rebellions from within. So if the next Battlefleet Gothic gets wiped out, it may not be as easy to reclaim Cadia's orbit.

 

The forces of Chaos also fight each other as almost as much as they fight the Imperium with the Black Crusades being the rare exceptions, and not even Abbadon can unite them forever. Eventually the Black Crusdades fall apart with rivalries and infighting.

 

Well if you are using the Battlefleet Gothic example, the Imperial fleet was mostly intact and rebuilt itself with it’s shipyards intact while the Chaos fleet was mentioned as taking massive losses and Abbadon’s main fleet being described as ‘’annhilated’’ at one point, with many ships destroyed in the retreat back to the Eye and others splintering.

 

So if you are looking at the fleets the Imperial definitely were in better shape by the end of the Gothic war.

 

So if the next Battlefleet Gothic gets wiped out, it may not be as easy to reclaim Cadia's orbit. Look at Dark Adeptus by Ben Counter. In it, a small portion of the naval fleet is sent to contain the situation on a forgeworld that was spat out of the warp. It was considered a priority objective. The Imperial fleet was made up of one war-grade ship as well as two ships that were no more than merchant ships that had weapons slapped onto them. Meanwhile the token Chaos fleet went to the same forgeworld to merely pick up a gift for the Despoiler was made up of three other ships. One was a well known battleship. Another was a fighter carrier with limited weapons. The last was a daemonship. The Imperial Fleet was wiped out. Totally and utterly. And this was during the Crusade. Abaddon was able to send out one of his own champions and a heavily-armed scouting fleet out while fighting the fleet above Cadia for a side trip while the Imperials saw it as an even more important objective. So I would say that Chaos seems to be the more well-supported out of the two sides.

 

Black Library is contradictory. A much bigger fleet is sent to take Taros, a minor frontier world, than to take said forgeworld This was also during the Black Crusade. Said fleet even had Astartes and Titan support. Altough IIRC, the fleet in Dark Adeptus was more to investigate than to take back the forge world.

[Marshal Rohr]

Personally, I think if the 40K time clock stopped right as the invasion starts, thats the best thing for the setting.

 

 

Reset the timeline a bit. Move some things around. There we go.

 

999.M41 [ :cuss Gets Real]

 

Abaddon attacks at the head of the largest Chaos Fleet since Horus. Ghazghkul has united billions upon billions of Orks under his banner and is barrelling towards Armageddon, the Overfiend of Octarius and the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon have done likewise, uniting all the orks in their empies and are spilling into their respective Segmentums. Leviathan has cut off a whole swath of the Segmentum Tempestus. Biel-Tan has launched a massive Crusade on the edge of the Segmentum Pacificus to retake Maiden Worlds, its farseers having deemed now the time to begin resettling worlds and rebuilding the Empire. The Tau Empire begins the 3rd and most aggressive expansion yet. Across the entire Imperium Necrons awaken to cleanse all organic life to prevent the spread of Chaos. The Dark Eldar raids across the Segmentum Solar and Obscurus increase exponentially, suggesting a power struggle in the depths of Commoragh.

 

But all is not lost. Years of planning and logistical preperations see the Imperium ready for this oncoming tide. Already Crusade Armies are dispatched far and wide. The Inquisition's agents do the Emperor's work covertly and conventionally on thousands of battlefields. The Ecclesiarchy has whipped the faithful into massive wars of faith spearheaded by the Adepta Sororitas. The Navy and Guard haven't been so well supplied in a millennia.

A billion billion guardsmen march to war under the finest tactical minds of humanity. Everywhere the Adeptus Astartes stand ready to throw back the enemies of the Imperium. Battle Barges cut through the warp to front line after front line, winning victory after victory.

 

With this setting, everyone wins. It can still be grimdark, but it looks like everyone is hanging on by just a thread.

[Kol Saresk]

Yea they got a message saying that there was a gift for the Despoiler. Meanwhile the Imperium was investigating and if need be destroy the forgeworld. And from what I've seen, Black Library does a better job of not contradicting itself. It does conflict with GW and Forgeworld, but that is usually after GW and Forgeworld change the fluff. And I don't mean add to it, I mean change it.

 

And you said that the Imperium is more able to rebuild itself to status quo more easily. But its

Forgeworlds are limited in their capabilities. They only produce on a set scale. They will not improve that because any deviations are strictly monitored and usually stopped. Even if they are approved, those deviations have to undergo extensive supervision and study before they are put into practice with a full seal of approval. The Dark Mechanicus has no such restrictions and their daemon technology is vastly superior to the Imperium's, even if isn't massed produced on five thousand different worlds.

 

And like the Eye of Terror Newsletter said, Cadia stands alone. There are only a few worlds left in the Cadia sector under Imprrial control and while the Imperium is able to reinforce each world individually, those worlds are most likely isolated from each other. This means that Chaos can take each world by itself, sit on it, reinforce it and then move on to the next until the entire Cadian Gate is under our control.

 

And while each Crusade had the objective of breaching the dam, it was far from their only objective. Some crusades didn't even attack Cadia. Like you said, the whole point of the 12th Crusade was to capture the Blackstone Fortresses. Or at the very least remove the six lynchpins in the defense of the Gothic Sector since he destroyed those he didn't have, not attacking Cadia as the Newsletter would suggest. That would instead suggest that capturing them was a secondary objective while the primary objective was just removing them from Imperial control. As such, they were expendable. As far as expendable goes at any rate.

 

You also mentioned that Abaddon wouldn't be able to rebuild his forces as quickly as the Imperium would. You have also pointed out on every turn that The Chaos fleet was sent back scurrying into the Eye, with only a handful of ships. But the 13th Crusade was launched in such numbers that the Imperium was completely thrown offguard. By the time they finally reorganized a counter attack, Cadia as well as the planets around it, were burning. And there were several also several Space Marine forces that converted to Chaos during the Crusade. His army isn't recouping its losses in the form of new troops because the old troops would no longer exist and therefore no longer be listed as a threat. But they are because they survived and recouped their own losses while the Black Legion regains its own.

 

And the Imperium thought that keeping the Traitor Legions in the Eye of Terror would eventually kill them off through the starving of supplies and such. Look how that turned out. And yes while you can bombard the crap out of any Loyalists caught in the open, they still cannot bombard them directly if they are holding objectives necessary to the defense of Cadia. That also limits it to a specific distance around the objective due to the possibility of collateral damage.

[Gree]

Yea they got a message saying that there was a gift for the Despoiler. Meanwhile the Imperium was investigating and if need be destroy the forgeworld. And from what I've seen, Black Library does a better job of not contradicting itself. It does conflict with GW and Forgeworld, but that is usually after GW and Forgeworld change the fluff. And I don't mean add to it, I mean change it.

 

It was still an investigation fleet, not a full blown invasion fleet at the end of the day.

 

And I don't mean add to it, I mean change it.

 

And you said that the Imperium is more able to rebuild itself to status quo more easily. But its

Forgeworlds are limited in their capabilities. They only produce on a set scale. They will not improve that because any deviations are strictly monitored and usually stopped. Even if they are approved, those deviations have to undergo extensive supervision and study before they are put into practice with a full seal of approval. The Dark Mechanicus has no such restrictions and their daemon technology is vastly superior to the Imperium's, even if isn't massed produced on five thousand different worlds.

 

Yes that’s why chaos technology consistently and constantly outperforms Imperial tech.

 

Hm, I seem to have missed that part when reading the fluff.

 

And like the Eye of Terror Newsletter said, Cadia stands alone. There are only a few worlds left in the Cadia sector under Imprrial control and while the Imperium is able to reinforce each world individually, those worlds are most likely isolated from each other. This means that Chaos can take each world by itself, sit on it, reinforce it and then move on to the next until the entire Cadian Gate is under our control.

 

You also ignore the part in the same newsletter about how Abbadon has failed to take the Cadian sector and it’s still in Imperial hands. Chaos does not control the majority of the worlds.

 

And Cadia standing alone seems a little odd for the article to say considering that the Imperium effectively has the trump card of orbital superiority around it.

And they can’t really do the strategy you suggest:

 

Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agnpmaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign. Some have said that it is for this reason alone Cadia still belongs in the material realm.

 

Abbadon made gains, but his forces are effectively cut off and isolated, which makes any expansion of those gains rather questionable.

Some crusades didn't even attack Cadia.

 

And then we have source stating that all crusades attacked Cadia, see my earlier comment.

 

Like you said, the whole point of the 12th Crusade was to capture the Blackstone Fortresses. Or at the very least remove the six lynchpins in the defense of the Gothic Sector since he destroyed those he didn't have, not attacking Cadia as the Newsletter would suggest. That would instead suggest that capturing them was a secondary objective while the primary objective was just removing them from Imperial control. As such, they were expendable. As far as expendable goes at any rate.

 

I thought the point that both the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook and the resulting Black Crusade was for Abbadon to capture the Blackstones to use in the 13th. I also very much doubt Abbadon planned to be defeated in two massive battles take big losses before retreating.

 

You also mentioned that Abaddon wouldn't be able to rebuild his forces as quickly as the Imperium would. You have also pointed out on every turn that The Chaos fleet was sent back scurrying into the Eye, with only a handful of ships. But the 13th Crusade was launched in such numbers that the Imperium was completely thrown offguard.

 

Where was it mentioned the Imperium was taken off Guard? The newsletter and Eye of Terror Codex note that the Imperium was already noting the nightmarish visions plaguing it’s psykers and the warp storms that started to appear.

 

Yes Abbadon rebuilt his fleet, but so did the Imperium, and they had an easier time of it due to having taken lesser losses than Abbadon did in the first place. And that was nine centuries ago.

 

But the 13th Crusade was launched in such numbers that the Imperium was completely thrown offguard. By the time they finally reorganized a counter attack, Cadia as well as the planets around it, were burning.

 

Where was this mentioned? The Newsletters give the impression of a slow grinding slugfest of much effort rather than Abbadon overrunning Cadia before anybody could react.

 

And there were several also several Space Marine forces that converted to Chaos during the Crusade.

 

Like who for example?

 

. His army isn't recouping its losses in the form of new troops because the old troops would no longer exist and therefore no longer be listed as a threat. But they are because they survived and recouped their own losses while the Black Legion regains its own.

 

I’m not really quite sure what you said here. If you are talking about Chaos recouping their losses we already know they have ore problems than the loyalists, considering that Chaos has to steal loyalist geneseed and have much risker and induction rituals as well as a collapse of the necessary support staff such as Apothecaries.

 

And the Imperium thought that keeping the Traitor Legions in the Eye of Terror would eventually kill them off through the starving of supplies and such.

 

Where did they think that in the fluff?

 

And yes while you can bombard the crap out of any Loyalists caught in the open, they still cannot bombard them directly if they are holding objectives necessary to the defense of Cadia. That also limits it to a specific distance around the objective due to the possibility of collateral damage.

 

Well if Cadia is already lost then you can rebuild it after. If the traitors are holed up by he threat of orbital bombardment then that’s also a plus for the Imperium since they can’t actually make any kind of strategic movement for the war.

 

So it’s a win-win situation for the Imperium.

[Kol Saresk]

And there were several also several Space Marine forces that converted to Chaos during the Crusade.

 

Like who for example?

This is the easiest one to start with. There were the Warp Ghosts, an entire Chapter of Space Marines. The Relictors were declared Excommunicate Traitoris during the last Crusade. Not necessarily "Traitor" but it is only a matter of time until the corruption fully manifests. There was a regiment of Imperial Guardsmen, the Volscani who were also the first troops to open fire on Cadia after landing there under the guise of an Imperial regiment. Killed the Cadian High Command who had come to greet them personally. Imperium was shocked by. I guess they weren't that thrown off. The Pyre also turned traitor during the 13th Crusade.

 

So that is three Chapters and at least one Imperial Guard regiment. And you have listed two different sources concerning the objectives of the Crusades. Battlefleet Gothic says that Cadia was not involved because it is in the Cadian Sector while the Gothic War took place in the Gothic Sector. Meanwhile the newsletter says that all thirteen Crusades attacked Cadia. A clear conflict wouldn't you say? But as neither fluff source was written by Black Library, that conflict shouldn't exist.

 

This is your quote from the Newsletter:

 

"At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man”

 

"All hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed." That means they have some sort of foothold outside of the Eye.

 

"The Imperium must consolidate its grip upon those world it still holds, and prepare to fight a world that will not end within the lifetime of its combatants." That means that several worlds were taken from the Imperium and the Imperium believes that the best thing it can do is just consolidate the positions it has, meaning that it believes that it cannot retake the worlds that have been lost and it must do everything it can to hold back the tides of Chaos.

 

Now, it does say that while Cadia stands. So let's just go with that the fiercest(not best) warriors(due to their total lack of mercy) who were ever seen by the galaxy died on Cadia's soil. the phrase "While Cadia still stands," would suggest that "we hope it holds out but it may not." Just going to leave it there.

 

On technology. The Planet Killer. Does the Imperium have anything like that?

 

The Despoiler-Class battleship. Yes the BFG version was built by the Imperium. Based off of a design of a ship built at Barbarus(homeworld of the Death Guard) before it was destroyed. Suggesting that Chaos now held the monopoly in designing that ship since every ship of that class built has turned traitor. Also, Abaddon not only knew how to use the Blackstone Fortress' actual weapons, he also knew that he had to obtain several xenos artifacts to work them. Which he did beforehand. I believe one of the Ciaphas Cain novels shows when one of the artifacts were taken by a Black Legion warband.

 

And they also have the Idolator-class escort which holds far superior weaponry to any Imperial counterpart according to BFG.

 

The Slaughter-class. Superior engines.

 

The Acheron-class. Imperium only built a prototype that it lost the designs to. Through fluff and players' taste, Chaos is now reproducing it. Of course let's just say that one doesn't count.

 

There is still the Murder-class. Superior plasma weaponry allows just a few of these cruisers to take out much more heavily armed battleships that were meant to take a pounding and dish out an even bigger one.

 

The Infernus-class battleship. Only seen in the hands of the Traitors. Specifically the Word Bearers.

 

The Brass Scorpion. The Tower of Skulls. The Decimator. The Soul Grinder. The Plague Hulk. The Blight Drone. The Defiler. The Kai guns. The many weapons of Chaos used by the Blood Pact and the Sons of Sek. The list can go on.

 

And yes, it was a small fleet. I pointed that out myself. But it completely overwhelmed the "battlegroup" that had been sent by the Imperium that was tasked with defending the world at all costs. And there was only one Space Marine there! Even if he was one of Abaddon's Chosen.

[Gree]

This is the easiest one to start with. There were the Warp Ghosts, an entire Chapter of Space Marines. The Relictors were declared Excommunicate Traitoris during the last Crusade. Not necessarily "Traitor" but it is only a matter of time until the corruption fully manifests. There was a regiment of Imperial Guardsmen, the Volscani who were also the first troops to open fire on Cadia after landing there under the guise of an Imperial regiment. Killed the Cadian High Command who had come to greet them personally. Imperium was shocked by. I guess they weren't that thrown off. The Pyre also turned traitor during the 13th Crusade.

 

So that is three Chapters and at least one Imperial Guard regiment.

 

I don’t recall the Warp Ghosts being a chapter that went traitor during the crusade. I recall them being listed as a generic warband in the 3.5 Chaos Codex, but that’s it. Where does it say that the Pyre turned traitor during the 13th Black Crusade? As far as I can tell it’s just another generic color scheme.

 

So it’s one chapter that did not even actually go over to Abbadon and a single tratiro regiment that was wiped out.

 

A clear conflict wouldn't you say? But as neither fluff source was written by Black Library, that conflict shouldn't exist.

 

The conflict still exists, even if it’s not being written by Black Library.

 

That means they have some sort of foothold outside of the Eye.

 

Yes they do, I was not contesting that, but their chances of expanding that are rather slim if their space travel is restricted.

 

"The Imperium must consolidate its grip upon those world it still holds, and prepare to fight a world that will not end within the lifetime of its combatants." That means that several worlds were taken from the Imperium and the Imperium believes that the best thing it can do is just consolidate the positions it has, meaning that it believes that it cannot retake the worlds that have been lost and it must do everything it can to hold back the tides of Chaos.

 

Yes and? Abbadon is still bogged down.

 

Now, it does say that while Cadia stands. So let's just go with that the fiercest(not best) warriors(due to their total lack of mercy) who were ever seen by the galaxy died on Cadia's soil. the phrase "While Cadia still stands," would suggest that "we hope it holds out but it may not." Just going to leave it there.

 

The Newsletter make sit rather clear that the Imperium still controls Cadia and the Cadian sector. However the Cadian sector is just one part of the Segmentum Obscuras, which in turn is a part of the much larger Imperium. So far, in galactic terms, Abbadon has not covered much ground.

 

On technology. The Planet Killer. Does the Imperium have anything like that?

 

Does the force sof Chaos have anything like the Pahlanx? But I’m not sure what is your point here. The Planet Killer has been destroyed multiple times and it’s hardly a game changer, considering all it did was destroyed 2-3 worlds in the Gothic War, mostly civilian targets.

 

On technology. The Planet Killer. Does the Imperium have anything like that?

 

The Despoiler-Class battleship. Yes the BFG version was built by the Imperium. Based off of a design of a ship built at Barbarus(homeworld of the Death Guard) before it was destroyed. Suggesting that Chaos now held the monopoly in designing that ship since every ship of that class built has turned traitor. Also, Abaddon not only knew how to use the Blackstone Fortress' actual weapons, he also knew that he had to obtain several xenos artifacts to work them. Which he did beforehand. I believe one of the Ciaphas Cain novels shows when one of the artifacts were taken by a Black Legion warband.

 

And they also have the Idolator-class escort which holds far superior weaponry to any Imperial counterpart according to BFG.

 

The Slaughter-class. Superior engines.

 

The Acheron-class. Imperium only built a prototype that it lost the designs to. Through fluff and players' taste, Chaos is now reproducing it. Of course let's just say that one doesn't count.

 

There is still the Murder-class. Superior plasma weaponry allows just a few of these cruisers to take out much more heavily armed battleships that were meant to take a pounding and dish out an even bigger one.

 

The Infernus-class battleship. Only seen in the hands of the Traitors. Specifically the Word Bearers.

 

The Brass Scorpion. The Tower of Skulls. The Decimator. The Soul Grinder. The Plague Hulk. The Blight Drone. The Defiler. The Kai guns. The many weapons of Chaos used by the Blood Pact and the Sons of Sek. The list can go on.

 

And yet, at the end of the day it was the Imperial fleet that held space superiority across a wide front.

 

Of course most of those are not something Chaos developed and researched, but rather stolen Imperial designs that were discontinued for a variety of reasons.

 

And yes, it was a small fleet. I pointed that out myself. But it completely overwhelmed the "battlegroup" that had been sent by the Imperium that was tasked with defending the world at all costs.

 

The Imperial fleet was also an investigation fleet. Why would they expect a handful of ships to defend a probably tainted world the were reinvestigating?

 

And there was only one Space Marine there! Even if he was one of Abaddon's Chosen.

Yes and? I think I’ve already established at this point that both sides were effectively investigation fleets send out to find out what had happened.

[Kol Saresk]

This is the easiest one to start with. There were the Warp Ghosts, an entire Chapter of Space Marines. The Relictors were declared Excommunicate Traitoris during the last Crusade. Not necessarily "Traitor" but it is only a matter of time until the corruption fully manifests. There was a regiment of Imperial Guardsmen, the Volscani who were also the first troops to open fire on Cadia after landing there under the guise of an Imperial regiment. Killed the Cadian High Command who had come to greet them personally. Imperium was shocked by. I guess they weren't that thrown off. The Pyre also turned traitor during the 13th Crusade.

 

So that is three Chapters and at least one Imperial Guard regiment.

 

I don’t recall the Warp Ghosts being a chapter that went traitor during the crusade. I recall them being listed as a generic warband in the 3.5 Chaos Codex, but that’s it. Where does it say that the Pyre turned traitor during the 13th Black Crusade? As far as I can tell it’s just another generic color scheme.

 

So it’s one chapter that did not even actually go over to Abbadon and a single tratiro regiment that was wiped out.

And to be honest I think it was a copy of the Codex: Eye of Terror that says that the Warp Ghosts turned traitor during the crusade and their colors are widely used. Of course there is always the fact that GW forgot a warband was already suing the colors. Or that they don't care. The same thing with the Pyre. And that both Chapters had turned Traitor during the Crusade.

A clear conflict wouldn't you say? But as neither fluff source was written by Black Library, that conflict shouldn't exist.

 

The conflict still exists, even if it’s not being written by Black Library.

This was more in reply to the attitude that only Black Library contradicts the fluff. Many people take that approach and it was simply an outburst from me considering they usually get stuck with "Here's pieces to eighteen different puzzles and we want you to make one single puzzle using all the pieces." and everyone groans and moans because the fluff was made more easy to accept as a possibility considering the fluff.

That means they have some sort of foothold outside of the Eye.

 

Yes they do, I was not contesting that, but their chances of expanding that are rather slim if their space travel is restricted.

We don't know how limited their space travel is. Small warbands have always been able to venture out and attack Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate is simply used for major fleet movements.

"The Imperium must consolidate its grip upon those world it still holds, and prepare to fight a world that will not end within the lifetime of its combatants." That means that several worlds were taken from the Imperium and the Imperium believes that the best thing it can do is just consolidate the positions it has, meaning that it believes that it cannot retake the worlds that have been lost and it must do everything it can to hold back the tides of Chaos.

 

Yes and? Abbadon is still bogged down.

Being able to move past Cadia and attack the rest of the Imperium at large isn't exactly bogged down.

Now, it does say that while Cadia stands. So let's just go with that the fiercest(not best) warriors(due to their total lack of mercy) who were ever seen by the galaxy died on Cadia's soil. the phrase "While Cadia still stands," would suggest that "we hope it holds out but it may not." Just going to leave it there.

 

The Newsletter make sit rather clear that the Imperium still controls Cadia and the Cadian sector. However the Cadian sector is just one part of the Segmentum Obscuras, which in turn is a part of the much larger Imperium. So far, in galactic terms, Abbadon has not covered much ground.

Yeah but the setting is still 40k. The last Black Crusade wasn't that long ago. While we do have some BL sources that are dated past the 999999.M41 mark, we don't know what happens past that mark other than someone in the Imperium is able to look at historical references from the next millennium. And again, the flood gates are open, he and every other leader in the Eye are able to attack any part of the Imperium at will now.

On technology. The Planet Killer. Does the Imperium have anything like that?

 

Does the force sof Chaos have anything like the Pahlanx? But I’m not sure what is your point here. The Planet Killer has been destroyed multiple times and it’s hardly a game changer, considering all it did was destroyed 2-3 worlds in the Gothic War, mostly civilian targets.

No, Chaos has the Planet of Steel. A lot larger. Huron also has more than a few star forts. And who knows what is lying within the Eye or the Maelstrom. Again, you asked about Chaos actually having superior technology. Can the Phalanx hold up to something that destroyed an entire planet? Don't know. Don't know why he spent his time taking out civilian worlds that did nothing more than send supplies to the frontline.

On technology. The Planet Killer. Does the Imperium have anything like that?

 

The Despoiler-Class battleship. Yes the BFG version was built by the Imperium. Based off of a design of a ship built at Barbarus(homeworld of the Death Guard) before it was destroyed. Suggesting that Chaos now held the monopoly in designing that ship since every ship of that class built has turned traitor. Also, Abaddon not only knew how to use the Blackstone Fortress' actual weapons, he also knew that he had to obtain several xenos artifacts to work them. Which he did beforehand. I believe one of the Ciaphas Cain novels shows when one of the artifacts were taken by a Black Legion warband.

 

And they also have the Idolator-class escort which holds far superior weaponry to any Imperial counterpart according to BFG.

 

The Slaughter-class. Superior engines.

 

The Acheron-class. Imperium only built a prototype that it lost the designs to. Through fluff and players' taste, Chaos is now reproducing it. Of course let's just say that one doesn't count.

 

There is still the Murder-class. Superior plasma weaponry allows just a few of these cruisers to take out much more heavily armed battleships that were meant to take a pounding and dish out an even bigger one.

 

The Infernus-class battleship. Only seen in the hands of the Traitors. Specifically the Word Bearers.

 

The Brass Scorpion. The Tower of Skulls. The Decimator. The Soul Grinder. The Plague Hulk. The Blight Drone. The Defiler. The Kai guns. The many weapons of Chaos used by the Blood Pact and the Sons of Sek. The list can go on.

 

And yet, at the end of the day it was the Imperial fleet that held space superiority across a wide front.

 

Of course most of those are not something Chaos developed and researched, but rather stolen Imperial designs that were discontinued for a variety of reasons.

Some are. And yes, the Imperium won. Superior does not always mean more capable. A Harley-Davidson will always have more superior torque when compared to any other European, Japanese, or American motorcycle. So in a drag race, the Harley will always win. However, due to their horsepower, European bikes will always win the long race because the horsepower is used for keeping speed, not making it like the torque is used for. You asked me to show examples of superior Chaos tech. I showed it. And every design that was discontinued was discontinued after all ships of that class either turned traitor or were destroyed.

And yes, it was a small fleet. I pointed that out myself. But it completely overwhelmed the "battlegroup" that had been sent by the Imperium that was tasked with defending the world at all costs.

 

The Imperial fleet was also an investigation fleet. Why would they expect a handful of ships to defend a probably tainted world the were reinvestigating?

Chaos received a message that there was a gift for the spoiler from an unknown benefactor which would turn out to be a possessed STC of an unknown class of Titan that would make the Imperator look like a child's toy. Meanwhile, the Inquisition noticed this planet as soon as it dropped out of the warp and sent an Inquisitor and a Grey Knights squad along with what was supposed to be an Exterminatus fleet in case bad juju was found.

And there was only one Space Marine there! Even if he was one of Abaddon's Chosen.

Yes and? I think I’ve already established at this point that both sides were effectively investigation fleets send out to find out what had happened.

Actually we have both pointed this out. What I keep pointing out is that while both investigation fleets were the same size, the Chaos fleet completely dominated the Imperial fleet.

[Gree]

Okay I’ve think I’ve had enough of this, I’m not even quite sure what we are arguing about at this point, but the more I’ve observed your claims I find they are false or simply misrepresented. (the claims of the Pyre turning Renegade turning the Crusade for example, to my knowledge that does not exist.) I am getting increasingly tired of arguing this is you are going to continue to keep on doing that.

[Kol Saresk]

Like I said, I'm not sure where I read, just that I read it. It may have been in my friend's copy of Codex: Eye of Terror. It may have been Lexicanum. So either way, I am not making it up. Just that I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere and that I am not sure where. No reason to call me a liar.

[Gree]

Like I said, I'm not sure where I read, just that I read it. It may have been in my friend's copy of Codex: Eye of Terror. It may have been Lexicanum. So either way, I am not making it up. Just that I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere and that I am not sure where. No reason to call me a liar.

 

All I’m seeing is various facts and statements thrown about that I’ve double checked with the relevant sources and found them to be lacking. Whether deliberate or not, I have little motivation to continue in a circular argument in such a fashion.

[Kol Saresk]

And as I do not have a Codex: Eye of Terror on hand, here is the closest thing to sources that I can find for my misrepresentations.

 

The Warp Ghosts

 

And this may be where I was mistaken about the Pyre

 

And after clicking the link for the Pyre, you are right that they are not explicitly stated as a Chapter that turned Traitor during the crusade. In fact, it would be impossible according to the information that is there so that is entirely my mistake that I read that one line and made an entire inference based off of it. Everything else has been me answering your questions and so far, this has been the only one that has had no fluff background except for "hearsay" on my part so for that I apologize. It was not my intent to offend you in anyway.

[diabloelmo]

Another thing to keep in mind - the bias of the sources. Many of the information sources you guys are throwing around tend to be biased towards one side or the other. One event chronicled by two different viewpoints will read VERY differently.

 

Throwing everything together, my interpretation of the fluff basically boils down to Abaddon's crusades resulting in decent successes for his forces (especially in the smaller-scale, specific objectives), but the overwhelming might of the Imperial Navy preventing him from smashing the Cadian system apart in one fell swoop.

Still, with the defences around the eye severely weakened, raiding fleets are now able to slip through in much greater numbers than ever before, thus increasing pressure on the Imperium as a whole. All those resources tied up in desperately trying to shore up the defences in the Cadian system would be bleeding the entire segmentum dry, giving all those raiding fleets deliciously soft targets to hit. And for every under-defended planet that gets hit, the Imperium's supplies of manpower - their most important resource - gets disrupted.

 

Abaddon's big, overarching plans for setting the galaxy alight might be getting stymied by the Imperium's efforts, but they aren't stopping him completely - not even close. Between the crusades and all the other nasty threats hitting it all at once, the Imperium's defences aren't a mighty, unbreakable bastion. They are a thin, crumbling wall, barely enough to stop the rampaging hordes from sweeping away the defenders. The Despoiler doesn't need big victories, he just needs to bleed the Imperium dry until they simply cannot hold out any longer.

[maverike_prime]

Okay I’ve think I’ve had enough of this, I’m not even quite sure what we are arguing about at this point, but the more I’ve observed your claims I find they are false or simply misrepresented. (the claims of the Pyre turning Renegade turning the Crusade for example, to my knowledge that does not exist.) I am getting increasingly tired of arguing this is you are going to continue to keep on doing that.

 

please see Deathwatch: The Achilus Assault (RPG), p. 78. I want to say it was also mentioned in the EoT codex but I don't have that with me right now. Will check when I get home.

[Gree]

Okay I’ve think I’ve had enough of this, I’m not even quite sure what we are arguing about at this point, but the more I’ve observed your claims I find they are false or simply misrepresented. (the claims of the Pyre turning Renegade turning the Crusade for example, to my knowledge that does not exist.) I am getting increasingly tired of arguing this is you are going to continue to keep on doing that.

 

please see Deathwatch: The Achilus Assault (RPG), p. 78. I want to say it was also mentioned in the EoT codex but I don't have that with me right now. Will check when I get home.

 

Yes that.....proves my point. They appeared to have tunred renegade at least nine centuries before the 13th Black Crusade according to the book, not during it.

[Snejk]

My personal opinion in this matter is that the only reason Abaddon (or any other Chaos henchman) has crushed the Imperium Of Man is because GW still wants to sell minis. :unsure:

[The Colossus]

Please see this, the list of Chaos Space Marine Chapters involved in 13th Black Crusade states the Pyre turned renegade during said crusade. This is directly contradicted by the Lexicanum entry for The Pyre, as they are first observed near the EoT in 131 M41, whilst the 13th Black Crusade began in 999 M41.

 

Its a case of conflicting fluff one would presume.

[Gree]

Please see this, the list of Chaos Space Marine Chapters involved in 13th Black Crusade states the Pyre turned renegade during said crusade. This is directly contradicted by the Lexicanum entry for The Pyre, as they are first observed near the EoT in 131 M41, whilst the 13th Black Crusade began in 999 M41.

 

Its a case of conflicting fluff one would presume.

 

I would actually just chalk it up to Lexicanum being Lexicanum. It's a wiki anybody can edit so there is probably going to be some falsehoods and fanon mixed in. I remember once a guy wrote his his Blood Angels fan characters in one of the pages that lasted for a few weeks before the Lexicanum mods finally took it down.

[Iron Lord]

But all is not lost. Years of planning and logistical preperations see the Imperium ready for this oncoming tide. Already Crusade Armies are dispatched far and wide. The Inquisition's agents do the Emperor's work covertly and conventionally on thousands of battlefields. The Ecclesiarchy has whipped the faithful into massive wars of faith spearheaded by the Adepta Sororitas. The Navy and Guard haven't been so well supplied in a millennia.

A billion billion guardsmen march to war under the finest tactical minds of humanity. Everywhere the Adeptus Astartes stand ready to throw back the enemies of the Imperium. Battle Barges cut through the warp to front line after front line, winning victory after victory.

 

A billion billion guardsmen in a galaxy of a million worlds is problematic to say the least- that would be, on average, a trillion guardsmen per world!

 

The Deathwatch book does suggest that the population of the Imperium is of that order, when speaking of psykers "Amongst an empire of a billion billion they number in their millions"

 

Still problematic for a million world Imperium.

 

However- some of the other FFG books occasionally use the figure of "a billion worlds" or "billions of worlds" alongside the usual "million worlds" figure.

 

I did guesstimates of the galactic population- based on the billion astropaths dying during The Howling (5E), 90+% of psykers in imperial service being astropaths (Old Rogue Trader book), 1 in a million people being born psychic (The Voice, in Tales of Heresy) and 1 in 1000 psykers found being judged fit to live (Codex Witch Hunters) and it definitely puts it in the "billion billion people" range.

 

Maybe they'll retcon the number of worlds to be consistent with this.

[Chengar Qordath]

But all is not lost. Years of planning and logistical preperations see the Imperium ready for this oncoming tide. Already Crusade Armies are dispatched far and wide. The Inquisition's agents do the Emperor's work covertly and conventionally on thousands of battlefields. The Ecclesiarchy has whipped the faithful into massive wars of faith spearheaded by the Adepta Sororitas. The Navy and Guard haven't been so well supplied in a millennia.

A billion billion guardsmen march to war under the finest tactical minds of humanity. Everywhere the Adeptus Astartes stand ready to throw back the enemies of the Imperium. Battle Barges cut through the warp to front line after front line, winning victory after victory.

 

A billion billion guardsmen in a galaxy of a million worlds is problematic to say the least- that would be, on average, a trillion guardsmen per world!

 

The Deathwatch book does suggest that the population of the Imperium is of that order, when speaking of psykers "Amongst an empire of a billion billion they number in their millions"

 

Still problematic for a million world Imperium.

 

However- some of the other FFG books occasionally use the figure of "a billion worlds" or "billions of worlds" alongside the usual "million worlds" figure.

 

I did guesstimates of the galactic population- based on the billion astropaths dying during The Howling (5E), 90+% of psykers in imperial service being astropaths (Old Rogue Trader book), 1 in a million people being born psychic (The Voice, in Tales of Heresy) and 1 in 1000 psykers found being judged fit to live (Codex Witch Hunters) and it definitely puts it in the "billion billion people" range.

 

Maybe they'll retcon the number of worlds to be consistent with this.

Could be something along the lines of the million figure just being the developed Hive and Forge worlds with significant populations, industry, and such, while the billion figure includes every world with that has a tiny little five-person outpost on it as an Imperial world.