Tactical Sergeants

[BattleBrotherJohn]

I wonder if anyone can help me out with the following questions.

 

How much wargear I should be giving to a Tactical sergeant ( from C:SM just to clarify things ) ?

 

I know there are lots of factors to consider - points limits , local meta game etc - but was wondering if a sergeant should take more than one item of wargear .

( If it helps at all my local gaming group tends to play 1500 points games and opposing armies tend to be Blood Angels / Grey Knights at the current moment , although other players have Imperial Guard , Orks and Tau ).

 

For example is giving a sergeant a Power Fist or combi-melta enough or would giving the sarge both a Power Fist and combi-melta be a good investment in points ?

 

Or should I be trying to spread the points around ? ( the points paid for a power fist could be used to upgrade a couple of Land Speeders with multi melta's for example ).

 

Also - does anyone ever give their tac sergeant a storm bolter . Apart from the appeal of a cool looking figure ( imo ) is it worth taking one ?

 

( Sorry if this has been asked before - I tried searching but the words Tactical and Sergeant bring up a lot of past threads and I gave up after 5-6 pages).

[Maligoare]

I've played around with many combinations of wargear for Sergeants, and really it depends what you want the squad to do. Seargeants with just combi-weapons can be great if you have a combat squad in a razorback and want a second special weapon (two combi weapons is a little silly though). Power fists are often a good bet, but they are expensive enough that you won't want to default them on all Tactical Sergeants.

 

In general, I tend to go with power weapon/fist and a combi weapon on mobile workhorse squads, and one or the other on a static fire-support squad I intend to hide in cover.

[DarkGuard]

As you've said there are many threads on Tactical squad Sergeants, and this will probably end up being like the rest of them.

 

Why do I say that? Because the question isn't simple. It comes down to personal preference, local metagame, and list composition.

 

For example, assuming no special characters, most people prefer not to use power fists. While power fists are certainly a nice weapon to have, in reality they do very little for quite a few points. Assuming you didn't get the charge (most likely) you've got 2 WS4 S8 attacks, 3 if you charge. That's worst than a Dread for more points and people quite rightly say they're terrible in prolonged combat. Of course the Sergeant has his buddies to help out, but how much damage against MEQ does 9 standard WS4, S4 attacks do? Not a lot. And against GEQ, where they do do damage, the power fist is just overkill. So basically, the power kill is best against MCs with few remaining wounds, maybe MEQ squads without them, but everything can else can be handled by other equipment or shouldn't be tangled with. Very niche role for a 25pts upgrade.

 

Especially when you consider that for free, you can run away from or out of combat, regroup and shoot. Tacticals are a shooty unit, that's what they do best beyond surviving and scoring. So to help with that a shooty weapon is often best. Now storm bolters might have been worth it, but for 10pts they aren't. All they give is an extra shot at 12"+ range, and considering that a lot of the time transports will get you inside that range, they're not great for the points. But for 10pts we can effectively have an extra special weapon for one turn. And considering most specials only get to fire once the one-shot nature of a combi doesn't mean much. But which combi?

 

Some people say go for diversity. So with a flamer/MM squad they'd put a combi-melta on to let the squad handle mech on the move. Others, like myself, say go for focus. One plasma gun isn't that frightening to most targets. But two? Now that's frightening, people don't expect Tactical squads to put that amount of firepower out. Dual flamer templates is nasty, while dual melta make you more likely to kill that one tank that absolutely has to die. Basically, for a small amount of points combis make your Tactical squad twice as good at what they do for that one turn. Golden choice, and first upgrade to put on IMO.

 

Now for armies without Chapter Tactics it gets more complicated. Vulkan armies should always take combi-flamers or combi-meltas on their Sergeants to take advantage of them, while combis in Khan armies work fine. Combis might not be so great in Shrike armies if you intend to get your Tactical Marines in combat (though might as well use combat Scouts then). However, the big ones are Pedro and Lysander. Again combis are fine, but when Stubborn you won't get out of combat unless your enemy breaks or dies, or you dies or get very unlucky. Now all of these characters prevent you from intentionally running, and so therefore as you're more likely to be in combat for longer combat weapons become better. Even more so with Pedro due to +1A making the squad decent in assault.

 

So as you can see things aren't black and white here, there are shades of grey. IMO combi matching the special first (you get versatility from the heavy weapon), and then points permitting power fist. And by points permitting I mean 3 power fists may be better as a MM/HF Speeder. Some lists may want those power fists more though, like Pedro and Lysander lists. Finally, meltabombs as points filler, always points filler, never more.

[ShinyRhino]

On the occasions when I run Tactical Squads, I keep my sergeants to a one-item maximum. Piling a powerfist and a combi onto one guy is all well and good, but then you realize you've inflated the sergeant's points cost by 200%, for a very limited utility. I'd rather have two extra Marines on the baord than a sigle combi-shot and maybe a couple powerfist swings.

Of course, that's because I use the rest of my army to do the heavy lifting, and the tactical squads are there to be mop-up units and to just be durable.

[BattleBrotherJohn]

Thanks for taking the time to reply people ( especially Dark Guard - a more comprehensive reply than I was expecting for this question ) .

[Gideon999]

Agreed with above. My srgt's usually have no upgrades at all to be honest. Krak grenades or regular attacks against rear armour will do the some nasty if you use them carefully, and like another poster said I'd rather have another unit on the board than a few power fists on my existing ones.

 

That said, your own meta will change that drastically. If you play a lot of mech heavy peeps, or a lot of orks with nobz (instakilling multiwound models is useful) or walkers you may find those fists are essential.

 

I would say, proxy the loadout you want to try in a few games, then switch it up. You will get some experience with different tactics and have a better idea of what you like and what works well. Unlike me who now has about 20 srgt models with different wargear, of which I use about 4 that are actually effective. :-)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I fall into the exception category DG mentioned -- I run Stubborn armies, so I get good mileage out of power fists. However, I also put combimeltas on them. My standard -- Ferrum-pattern, if you will -- Tac Squad loadout puts plasma in both weapon slots because my local metagame is so Marine heavy its ridiculous, so I need somewhere to put a melta in the squad for opportunity tank-busting, and that's my only option. It makes that squads fairly expensive by the standard most B&Cers stick to, but I do tend to get really good mileage out of my squads.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for taking the time to reply people ( especially Dark Guard - a more comprehensive reply than I was expecting for this question ) .

 

No worries, while there are a few threads on this it can be daunting sifting through the replies. I hope I've given a fair appraisal of the different options, although obviously a lot of it is based on what I think works best. Others may find things more useful etc.

 

Deux Ex Ferrum: Have you consider combi-plasma/plasma gun/MM as a midfield/offensive squad? Less flexibility in being able to combat squad effectively, but keeps some good anti-MEQ firepower and some anti-tank. Of course, more of a midfield unit when using the MM which may not be what you want. Just curious. The Ferrum pattern seems quite interesting, I may have to look into it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Deux Ex Ferrum: Have you consider combi-plasma/plasma gun/MM as a midfield/offensive squad? Less flexibility in being able to combat squad effectively, but keeps some good anti-MEQ firepower and some anti-tank. Of course, more of a midfield unit when using the MM which may not be what you want. Just curious. The Ferrum pattern seems quite interesting, I may have to look into it.

 

The combat squadding usually isn't an issue; I have a tendency not to do it with my Tac Squads. They all mount up in Rhinos and I normally employ them firing the plasma cannons and/or plasma guns out of the hatches. I do try to maintain them as backfield objective-holders, but I do move them into the midfield when the situation demands. I run, in most cases, a straight shooting army -- no assault-specific units at all -- which is the only way I tend to be successful against my local meta which is so heavily assault oriented its not even funny (at last count, there are three Space Wolf armies, two Blood Angels armies -- used to be three, but one guy moved away -- two Black Templar armies, two Dark Eldar wych armies, two Chaos Marine armies, and something dumb like five Grey Knight armies at my just-closed-on-Friday-LGS), and so my Tac Squads are normally a prime assault target for the enemy. Thus, Lysander for Stubborn, power fists to get my own licks in, and plenty of plasma to gun down the enemy as they close.

[minigun762]

Speaking from a traitor's perspective, I don't think enough people look at the basic power weapon for tac sarges.

Cheaper then the power fist but it effectively doubles your close combat ability against marines or terminators and your average tac squad is short ranged and more likely to get assaulted. The icing on the cake is that it ignores FnP which is becoming more and more common these days.

[Bannus]

Speaking from a traitor's perspective, I don't think enough people look at the basic power weapon for tac sarges.

Cheaper then the power fist but it effectively doubles your close combat ability against marines or terminators and your average tac squad is short ranged and more likely to get assaulted. The icing on the cake is that it ignores FnP which is becoming more and more common these days.

I gave all of my Salamander Sergeants power weapons because they tend to fight fairly close to the enemy and it seems to be a decent investment at just 15 points. They strike at initiative - which is always good - and ignores armor. Granted, the hits are Str 4, but the Sergeants get to make three of them (four on the charge) each turn...which seems to make up for it.

 

Some of my Iron Hands Sergeants have power weapons as well (one with a plasma pistol...because it looks cool if you must ask!), a couple have power fists too. In my more recent army building, I'm treating my Sergeants like characters and heroes - no 'cookie-cutter' wargear for them. They are being built for aesthetics and character more than anything.

[ShinyRhino]

Speaking from a traitor's perspective, I don't think enough people look at the basic power weapon for tac sarges.

Cheaper then the power fist but it effectively doubles your close combat ability against marines or terminators and your average tac squad is short ranged and more likely to get assaulted. The icing on the cake is that it ignores FnP which is becoming more and more common these days.

 

The FNP point is a very good one. it does seem like veryone and their uncle has FNP these days. A basic power weapon might not turn the tide, but it slow the bleeding. For example, against FNP-bubble Blood Angels, they're likely charging you at S5/I5. You're going to be taking your licks before you ever get to swing, but should the sergeant survive, you have an actual chance to cause damage, whereas without it your chances of taking down a Blood Angel Marine are miniscule.

[greatcrusade08]

this wll add some perspective.. as a chaos player a regular generic CSM champion (aka sergeant) with power fist and combi weapon, comes in at a whopping 65 points on his own..

 

true space marine sergeants are looking at about 55 points for the same loadout, but it makes you think.. personally id rather have 3 extra MM attack bikes than 3 power fst toting sergeants.

combi-meltas as darkguard suggests are where the action is at, load up on these bad boys and go kill something

[Ming]

If I have a 5-man SM combat squad, usually in a razorback, I go PF/combiflamer, as the only time these guys need to leave the ride is to assault a infantry squad or similar smaller target, or some other thing that needs to get fisted. The combi- means you can only use it once, and when you just think the word melta, you always roll a 1 to hit so they are useless for the points. A combiflamer takes all the pressure off....you just roll to wound (usually for multiple models), pop off some pistols too from the squad, and then assault the survivors...

 

If I have a 10-man tac squad, I always take a long range heavy weapon and a short range meltagun or plasmagun. In that case, the sarge' just gets a power weapon.

 

Nowadays with them "newcrons" flying around all the time, melta seems to be getting very important....

[MordentHex]

Depending on which squad it is makes me weigh what i give the sergeant. Bet lets be serious and not flippant. Your army will play the way you personally play it. I know guys that give their serg's nothing and it works for them, I know others that deck them out and that works for them too. It really comes down to how you use and play your SM army. Plasma pistol on your tac squad anyone? probably not because people want that combi-bolter with 1 turn a game melta/plasma shot. by replacing my serg's boltpistol with a plasma pistol and get 2 plasma shot at 12" every turn or choose my bolter. Sure its a little more but i never run out of ammo. :whistling: That said I do trick out my serg's but others I leave bare bones. Im a slave to the fluff so every time i see a marine army full of power weapon/fist serg's with uber guns I think if i can kill theses guys his chapter is going to lose half of its entire armory. If i lose the game at least i have a small moral victory and if i win then i can pick over the corpses and make my armory even bigger.

[DarkGuard]

Plasma pistol is assault 1, so only 1 shot a turn....

[AGPO]

this wll add some perspective.. as a chaos player a regular generic CSM champion (aka sergeant) with power fist and combi weapon, comes in at a whopping 65 points on his own..

 

true space marine sergeants are looking at about 55 points for the same loadout, but it makes you think.. personally id rather have 3 extra MM attack bikes than 3 power fst toting sergeants.

combi-meltas as darkguard suggests are where the action is at, load up on these bad boys and go kill something

 

This isn't really a fair comparison as you're inclusding the cost of the sergeant himself which is sunk already. Now granted thirty five points is a lot to be shelling out on upgrades, but it doesn't buy you a MM attack bike.

 

Plasma pistol is assault 1, so only 1 shot a turn....

 

This is correct. Plasma pistols used to be a great option, especially in third edition when you could shoot and then assault to full effect. Sadly with this edition, pistols have been mostly nerfed. That said if going with a power weapon I'd always take the plasma pistol over the combi-plasma. Yes once per game you'll get that extra shot, but with the pistol not only do you get to assault afterwards, you get two extra power weapon attacks in the first round, and one extra evey round after that. Added to this you'll be able to use the plasma pistol again in subsequent turns.

[DarkGuard]

This isn't really a fair comparison as you're inclusding the cost of the sergeant himself which is sunk already. Now granted thirty five points is a lot to be shelling out on upgrades, but it doesn't buy you a MM attack bike.

 

But 35pts gets you most of an MM AB, and if you auto-add upgrades to all your Sergeants like some do you can end up with 35- 105pts spent on upgrades on 3 models, certainly many people run at least two Sergeants, that's 70pts. Now some are good, such as combis, but you really have to ask yourself whether each needs a power fist, and at 25pts each the answer is probably a no.

 

This is correct. Plasma pistols used to be a great option, especially in third edition when you could shoot and then assault to full effect. Sadly with this edition, pistols have been mostly nerfed. That said if going with a power weapon I'd always take the plasma pistol over the combi-plasma. Yes once per game you'll get that extra shot, but with the pistol not only do you get to assault afterwards, you get two extra power weapon attacks in the first round, and one extra evey round after that. Added to this you'll be able to use the plasma pistol again in subsequent turns.

 

It depends how you use them. I'd be tempted to keep the combi-plasma and run a power weapon. I'd prefer my Tactical squads to maximise shooting, so combat comes after. Chances are if I'm running a combi-plasma I'm running a plasma gun as well. I can't assault after firing that thing, and I'd much rather have the plasma shot at BS4 than the extra power weapon swing at WS4, especially as most my opponents are Space Marines. If I get charged I only get 2 attacks, but you can bet I'll try to get out of combat as soon as possible so I can fire that plasma gun again.

[MordentHex]

correct after looking it is assault 1, duh on my part, But still I would rather shoot that and the rest of my squad with boltpistols and charge them. That way at least im likely to cause a wound or two before close combat, they dont get the charge bonus, and if i fail, it gives me more room to fall back in their turn and maybe turn around next turn and do it again if i lose and break, (which if it goes badly im likely to choose to auto-fail and get out anyways) Power weapon does actually help too. but thats more than a powerfist and i would have to give up my magic bolter.

[AGPO]

This isn't really a fair comparison as you're inclusding the cost of the sergeant himself which is sunk already. Now granted thirty five points is a lot to be shelling out on upgrades, but it doesn't buy you a MM attack bike.

 

But 35pts gets you most of an MM AB, and if you auto-add upgrades to all your Sergeants like some do you can end up with 35- 105pts spent on upgrades on 3 models, certainly many people run at least two Sergeants, that's 70pts. Now some are good, such as combis, but you really have to ask yourself whether each needs a power fist, and at 25pts each the answer is probably a no.

 

This is correct. Plasma pistols used to be a great option, especially in third edition when you could shoot and then assault to full effect. Sadly with this edition, pistols have been mostly nerfed. That said if going with a power weapon I'd always take the plasma pistol over the combi-plasma. Yes once per game you'll get that extra shot, but with the pistol not only do you get to assault afterwards, you get two extra power weapon attacks in the first round, and one extra evey round after that. Added to this you'll be able to use the plasma pistol again in subsequent turns.

 

It depends how you use them. I'd be tempted to keep the combi-plasma and run a power weapon. I'd prefer my Tactical squads to maximise shooting, so combat comes after. Chances are if I'm running a combi-plasma I'm running a plasma gun as well. I can't assault after firing that thing, and I'd much rather have the plasma shot at BS4 than the extra power weapon swing at WS4, especially as most my opponents are Space Marines. If I get charged I only get 2 attacks, but you can bet I'll try to get out of combat as soon as possible so I can fire that plasma gun again.

 

You're right on this and in general I'll take a sergeant with a combi weapon to match the squad's special weapon (ie. combi-plasma and plasma gun, combi flamer and flamer, combi melta and melta) and leave the power weapon at home. However, if I'm taking a power weapon and I'm facing a lot of MEQs then I'll leave the combi plasma and go for the extra combat punch, as otherwise the power weapon is a waste. Four power weapon attacks are worth the investment, two aren't.