Dark Angel sucessors that aren't obsessed with the Fallen?

[Hellios]

The Relictors don't and they are part Dark Angel :)

 

No, I'm pretty sure the Relictors have an unknown geneseed. Are you thinking of the Consecrators? Because they're most definitely obsessed with the Fallen.

 

 

No the Relictors are stated to use a mix of Dark Angel and Ultramarine Geneseed.... Hence why the Inner circle could never trust them (Assuming they know they use Dark Angel geneseed.) and why the Dark Angels would not pass on their traditions even if they had the chance.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

One point raised is another geneseed chapter training the new recruits. Something I doubt happening. Why? Its all to do with the spiritual link thing with the Primarch. Only a DA chapter can train another DA chapter in the ways of the Lion. Therefore, they would share in the shame from the start. Their thinking will be DA. They will be Unforgiven from day 1. You dont just get 1000 pre-made Marines in a new chapter, they need to be trained, made, equipped, etc. They wont just say 'oh, its not our problem' as each and every one of them is trained in exactly the same way as every other Unforgiven and therefore shares the same beliefs. Maybe variations, but they will believe the same core thing and, not all will know (those who cannot handle the truth, for example) of the Fallen.

 

Now, if this did happen, maybe an error, then the Chapter will be stuffed up from the start and will probably fall to Chaos. Why? Becuase they know nothing about the Lion. Say an Imperial Fist Chapter or Ultramarine Chapter trains them, what do they know about Caliban? Lion el'Jonson? The DA Legion? Traditions? They will teach them that Dorn/Guillieman is the best, that they should follow their teachings. Suddenly, they are NOT DA, They are IF or UM. This will cause a clash of identities at some point. Somewhere they will think 'hey, why Dorn? What did the Lion really do? What are my brethren like?' This would be a problem as the Unforgiven will reject them, yes, they will. They can never trust them. Ever. No questions. They would destroy them first before they trusted them. Why? Because they have not trained them and are paranoid. Because they do not share the same, crucial beliefs, because they are not, truly, Sons of the Lion.

 

And we all know that rejection causes pain, and pain is the succour of the chaos gods.

 

Therefore, I believe the idea they do not know/care to be...well, unlikely. Unless they follow the scenario above, which, to me, will (cause this is 40k) to lead to damnation and destruction.

 

Dang, now I have an idea for a new DIY chapter and story :D

[spu00sed]

For an extra spin, what about the unforgiven not knowing that the new chapter don;t know about the fallen?

 

Example:

 

New chapter is created.

 

A Cadre is sent from the DA to train them and teach them about the fallen and working together

 

They get as far as explaining how all the DA successors work together for the good of humanity (not calling them unforgiven yet) and a council of chapter masters will often give out missions

 

The cadre have an accident involving a crossbow and exploding donkey, so can't pass on the teaching on the fallen.

 

New chapter carries on and occassionally gets strange orders from the inner circle, such as blow up this building. Capture this person.

 

As a new chapter they are still not allowed full access to the secrets so the prisioners are handed off to an older chapter (or they only lead a supporting role).

 

Since this has been their existance they don't think it is abnormal.

 

Any message sent to them would be coded. They wouldn't know the secret mission in the code, only the cover mission.

 

Other unforgiven could even start getting annoyed with the number of failed capture missions.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Thats an interesting idea actually, and could be plausible

 

However, the Inner Circle has survived for 10,000 years without anyone, or any group, knowing anything. This means the are not stupid :ermm:

 

I am sure they would summon the new Grand Master to meet with the SGM, ostensibly to offer his sympathies, where he tells him the truth and sends him back with a few new comrades, with the cover as advisers. A new Reclusiarch and Chief Librarian, maybe, and they continue as before.

[spu00sed]

It will take time for them to realise something isn't right.

 

All depends how much the new chapter knows.

 

They might know that they have a secret mission.

 

Certain Chaos marines have a history with the legion and are to be hunted.

 

The first rule of the unforgiven is not to talk about the fallen (though they weren't told that they could talk about them with the supreme grand master).

[Doghouse]

Just because they don't know about the Fallen doesn't mean that they don't have similar organisations in place or don't adhere to the structure of the DA though. They wouldn't need the Inner Circle aspect but the rest could be explained away quite easily and would serve to protect the secrecy of the chapter further by showing that the Death Wing, Raven Wing, etc are common aspects of all DA successors.

 

And why would they have a Ravenwing? What would be the purpose? The Ravenwing is partly defined by its unique purpose. The same is even more true of the Deathwing. If you mean to say that the Unforgiven could purposely let a successor chapter not know about their secret but still make them use their organisation (by sending a cadre of trusted, but not IC marines, for example), that could happen, but would they really do that just to have the one "good apple" to show everyone else?

 

Yeah but why do any chapters have dedicated formations at all? At the end of the day it's just what sets them apart as armies and defines their character to some degree or another.

 

The Raven Wing are a dedicated bike and speeder formation that could equally be at home in the likes of the White Scars and the Death Wing are basically a Terminator company that could equally be at home in any marine chapter that had the resources to field that many Terminator suits. I think as most of the Dark Angels chapter themselves have no knowledge of the Fallen then these formations wouldn't really seem that out of place as specialist formations in a chapter where even the veterans have no knowledge of the Fallen.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Just because they don't know about the Fallen doesn't mean that they don't have similar organisations in place or don't adhere to the structure of the DA though. They wouldn't need the Inner Circle aspect but the rest could be explained away quite easily and would serve to protect the secrecy of the chapter further by showing that the Death Wing, Raven Wing, etc are common aspects of all DA successors.

 

And why would they have a Ravenwing? What would be the purpose? The Ravenwing is partly defined by its unique purpose. The same is even more true of the Deathwing. If you mean to say that the Unforgiven could purposely let a successor chapter not know about their secret but still make them use their organisation (by sending a cadre of trusted, but not IC marines, for example), that could happen, but would they really do that just to have the one "good apple" to show everyone else?

 

Yeah but why do any chapters have dedicated formations at all? At the end of the day it's just what sets them apart as armies and defines their character to some degree or another.

 

The Raven Wing are a dedicated bike and speeder formation that could equally be at home in the likes of the White Scars and the Death Wing are basically a Terminator company that could equally be at home in any marine chapter that had the resources to field that many Terminator suits. I think as most of the Dark Angels chapter themselves have no knowledge of the Fallen then these formations wouldn't really seem that out of place as specialist formations in a chapter where even the veterans have no knowledge of the Fallen.

 

True, these formations would still be viable as such. But what I am getting at is the question where the new chapter gets his traditions from. If they get their traditions from the DA/Unforgiven, these traditions will most likely include the knowledge of the Fallen. If they get their traditions from somewhere else, the traditions of these special formations would not be transferred, either. Either a new chapter is trained by a cadre of marines from the Unforgiven - then I can't really think of a good reason to leave their officers in the dark - or they are trained in some other way, in which case I see no way for them to get their traditions from the Unforgiven, so they wouldn't have a DW and RW.

 

But if someone can come up with good reasons, then yeah, sure, it could work. Some of the ideas posted, like their IC cadre somehow all dying in an accident, might work, however that in itself could still use some work.

[Lorenzen]

although it hasnt been explicitly stated i believe the star phantoms are of dark angel stock and they have very little to do with the fallen.. they are very gloomy though.

[Jareddm]

One point raised is another geneseed chapter training the new recruits. Something I doubt happening. Why? Its all to do with the spiritual link thing with the Primarch. Only a DA chapter can train another DA chapter in the ways of the Lion. Therefore, they would share in the shame from the start. Their thinking will be DA. They will be Unforgiven from day 1. You dont just get 1000 pre-made Marines in a new chapter, they need to be trained, made, equipped, etc. They wont just say 'oh, its not our problem' as each and every one of them is trained in exactly the same way as every other Unforgiven and therefore shares the same beliefs. Maybe variations, but they will believe the same core thing and, not all will know (those who cannot handle the truth, for example) of the Fallen.

 

Now, if this did happen, maybe an error, then the Chapter will be stuffed up from the start and will probably fall to Chaos. Why? Becuase they know nothing about the Lion. Say an Imperial Fist Chapter or Ultramarine Chapter trains them, what do they know about Caliban? Lion el'Jonson? The DA Legion? Traditions? They will teach them that Dorn/Guillieman is the best, that they should follow their teachings. Suddenly, they are NOT DA, They are IF or UM. This will cause a clash of identities at some point. Somewhere they will think 'hey, why Dorn? What did the Lion really do? What are my brethren like?' This would be a problem as the Unforgiven will reject them, yes, they will. They can never trust them. Ever. No questions. They would destroy them first before they trusted them. Why? Because they have not trained them and are paranoid. Because they do not share the same, crucial beliefs, because they are not, truly, Sons of the Lion.

 

And we all know that rejection causes pain, and pain is the succour of the chaos gods.

 

Therefore, I believe the idea they do not know/care to be...well, unlikely. Unless they follow the scenario above, which, to me, will (cause this is 40k) to lead to damnation and destruction.

 

You're making some fairly large assumptions in your thinking. Despite what Codex: Ultramarines says, not every chapter will put their primarch forward as the be all end all. A later Ultramarine founding or a chapter with an unknown geneseed may not have any connection to the primarchs and instead teach that the Emperor is the only one worth venerating or some other unique approach based on the chapter's homeworld. Plenty of chapters know nothing about their origins and have managed. Why would one specifically of dark angel geneseed be different? This "Dark Angel thinking" that you're referring to isn't real, otherwise every chapter would be able to figure out their origins based on some simple communication with other chapters. And why do you assume that a chapter would seek out their past, when many chapters are taught that lost knowledge is lost for a reason? That if some information about the chapter's creation was destroyed or sealed off, than for the chapter to know it would do more harm than good. Of course the unforgiven would reject them in the same way they'd reject any other chapter, but if the chapter never even knew they were of dark angel lineage, why would they care?

[TrashMan]

But, and this is the crucial part really, what does being a DA successor give a DIY chapter over being from any other Legion if you remove the whole "hunting the fallen" part?

 

A healthy geenseed other than the ultrasmurfs?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

One point raised is another geneseed chapter training the new recruits. Something I doubt happening. Why? Its all to do with the spiritual link thing with the Primarch. Only a DA chapter can train another DA chapter in the ways of the Lion. Therefore, they would share in the shame from the start. Their thinking will be DA. They will be Unforgiven from day 1. You dont just get 1000 pre-made Marines in a new chapter, they need to be trained, made, equipped, etc. They wont just say 'oh, its not our problem' as each and every one of them is trained in exactly the same way as every other Unforgiven and therefore shares the same beliefs. Maybe variations, but they will believe the same core thing and, not all will know (those who cannot handle the truth, for example) of the Fallen.

 

Now, if this did happen, maybe an error, then the Chapter will be stuffed up from the start and will probably fall to Chaos. Why? Becuase they know nothing about the Lion. Say an Imperial Fist Chapter or Ultramarine Chapter trains them, what do they know about Caliban? Lion el'Jonson? The DA Legion? Traditions? They will teach them that Dorn/Guillieman is the best, that they should follow their teachings. Suddenly, they are NOT DA, They are IF or UM. This will cause a clash of identities at some point. Somewhere they will think 'hey, why Dorn? What did the Lion really do? What are my brethren like?' This would be a problem as the Unforgiven will reject them, yes, they will. They can never trust them. Ever. No questions. They would destroy them first before they trusted them. Why? Because they have not trained them and are paranoid. Because they do not share the same, crucial beliefs, because they are not, truly, Sons of the Lion.

 

And we all know that rejection causes pain, and pain is the succour of the chaos gods.

 

Therefore, I believe the idea they do not know/care to be...well, unlikely. Unless they follow the scenario above, which, to me, will (cause this is 40k) to lead to damnation and destruction.

 

You're making some fairly large assumptions in your thinking. Despite what Codex: Ultramarines says, not every chapter will put their primarch forward as the be all end all. A later Ultramarine founding or a chapter with an unknown geneseed may not have any connection to the primarchs and instead teach that the Emperor is the only one worth venerating or some other unique approach based on the chapter's homeworld. Plenty of chapters know nothing about their origins and have managed. Why would one specifically of dark angel geneseed be different? This "Dark Angel thinking" that you're referring to isn't real, otherwise every chapter would be able to figure out their origins based on some simple communication with other chapters. And why do you assume that a chapter would seek out their past, when many chapters are taught that lost knowledge is lost for a reason? That if some information about the chapter's creation was destroyed or sealed off, than for the chapter to know it would do more harm than good. Of course the unforgiven would reject them in the same way they'd reject any other chapter, but if the chapter never even knew they were of dark angel lineage, why would they care?

 

Actually, there is a way of DA thinking that all Unforgiven share, its called the 'Hunt'. If a chapter is taught idfferently, they do not think this way and therefore they are not Unforgiven.

 

And, do not brush of the Primarchs so easily. Look at the Blood Ravens, they do not know their Primarch and so are obsessed with finding out. Plus, I disagree with not knowing who your Primarch is, as it should be fairly easy to test the geneseed if you really wanted to know. And most Chapters should want to know who their father is. I mean, how many adopted children do not wish to know of their parentage and if they have any siblings? Yes, I know many do not, but the large majority of them do. 'Unknown' geneseed is just lazy plot writing unless theres a really, really, really good reason. The Imperium keeps extensive records of pretty much everything at some point. Yes, tons is destroyed, but the genebanks on Mars still exist.

 

In addition, the argument I raised was that they know they are DA geneseed and that they were trained by a Chapter that knows of their own Imperial Fista or other lineage. I believe they would seek out their brethren is they know they are of the seed of the Lion. This is the point raised. Imagine you know your parents and your siblings, yet you were raised with some of your cousins to respect your Uncle. Now, you go off and live a few years then you suddenly feel the need to know more about your father and your brothers, what was he really like, how did he behave, things like that that the Cousins could not teach you. When you reach out to your brothers, they reject you. They say you are nothing to do with them, yet you know your brothers are a close knit group and this hurts, you would turn to something for solace. Maybe the Emperor, or maybe something else...

 

This is just my opinion, though.

[Doghouse]

True, these formations would still be viable as such. But what I am getting at is the question where the new chapter gets his traditions from. If they get their traditions from the DA/Unforgiven, these traditions will most likely include the knowledge of the Fallen. If they get their traditions from somewhere else, the traditions of these special formations would not be transferred, either. Either a new chapter is trained by a cadre of marines from the Unforgiven - then I can't really think of a good reason to leave their officers in the dark - or they are trained in some other way, in which case I see no way for them to get their traditions from the Unforgiven, so they wouldn't have a DW and RW.

 

But if someone can come up with good reasons, then yeah, sure, it could work. Some of the ideas posted, like their IC cadre somehow all dying in an accident, might work, however that in itself could still use some work.

 

They won't need to take the traditions of the chapter on board though just the organisation of the companies. If you think about all the chapters out there that don't know their progenitor chapter/legion but people theorise that that they are the successor of such and such chapter because they fight in this way or that, have the same gene markers or a whole host of other little clues to suggest their origin without spelling it out.

 

They'd probably just be seen as a codex divergent chapter.

[AGPO]

Didn't the Cosmic Space Knights (of Doom) once think they were Dark Angels successors? ^_^

 

On a serious note, it's pretty easy to think of a few options to make this interesting depending on how 'Dark Angelsesque' you want them to be:

 

Option 1: The High Lords of Terra found a new chapter using stocks of highly pure Dark Angels geneseed to join the defences of the Cadian gate. However, knowing that the Dark Angels tendancy to go 'off book' could well undermine the defences of Cadia, the High Lords decide to put a group of Imperial Fists officers in charge of the new Chapter's training. The Dark Angels see this as a terrible slur, and refuse to have any contact with the new chapter.

 

Option 2: When a new chapter is formed, the Inner Circle go to even greater lengths to ensure that any of their new brethren are pure and trustworthy enough to join their order. Sadly for this particular chapter, before any of their number can be inducted in to the secrets of the legion, their training cadre of Inner Circle members is wiped out in some terrible incident. The newly promoted officers know nothing about the Fallen, but retain the chapter structure put in place by the Inner Circle.

 

Option 3: A newly founded successor chapter embarks on its first mission to put down a rebellion on the outer fringes. They manage to capture the instigator, an Astartes, who upon interrogation reveals himself as one of the Fallen. Not sure who to trust or to believe, the chapter begins to investigate the actions of its founding legions, even more distrustful than regular Dark Angels but determined to get at the truth by any means.

[TrashMan]

Thats an interesting idea actually, and could be plausible

 

However, the Inner Circle has survived for 10,000 years without anyone, or any group, knowing anything. This means the are not stupid :P

 

I am sure they would summon the new Grand Master to meet with the SGM, ostensibly to offer his sympathies, where he tells him the truth and sends him back with a few new comrades, with the cover as advisers. A new Reclusiarch and Chief Librarian, maybe, and they continue as before.

 

It's 40K.

Entire planets get lost on rounding errors.

 

Far sillier and worse mistakes happened trough the 10 millenia. I really don't see nothing unbelievable about someone, somewhere forgetting to send a replacement IC member.

[TrashMan]

Ok, I think I jsut got a plausible scenario.

 

A new chapter is made with DA geneseed. The DA send a trainign cadre and bein training. It is going well and the new Chapter heads towards it's newely assigend home in the back end of nowhere. But then disaster strikes.

The fleet is lost in the warp.

 

After X years, it re-emerges in the back end of nowhere, where it was supposed to come. Only a few ships survied, and only a fraction of the marines. Everyone from the DA training cadre is dead (ar at least anyone from the inner circle), and as is everyone higher in the food-chain.

 

Being at the far end of nowhere, the chapter sets to work to re-build, and is largely undeteced by the Imperium for a long time.

 

 

The chapter has knowledge of their Primarch, but not of the fallen. They can have any kind of organizational or command structure, since they started from scratch.

 

You can play with what exactly happened in the warp (where they betrayed? Attacked by chaos ships? Demons? any mutation?) and how/when the other factions find out abot them.

[Malthe]

I believe Octa has a chapter which deals with some of these issues, though from a slightly differet angle :lol:

 

Bottom line is you gotta ask; why is this interesting?

Then, once you found a reason, ask yourself; am I the only one this is interesting to?

If you can answer the first question, by all means knock yourself out and go crazy DIY'ing!

But unless the answer to the second question is no, then mayby you should consider spending your time on something else?

 

It's difficult getting something interesting (unique =\\= interesting!) out of a DA successor chapter which doesn't know of the Fallen, since everything the DA are is because of the Fallen.

It's kinda like taking the Codex out of the Ultramarines or Fenris out of the Space Wolfs, or self-hatred and bionics out of the Iron Hands.

Can it be done, sure! But what's left?

 

Rather than busting your brains out trying to think of a reason a successor chapter wouldn't know of the Fallen, why don't you think about what themes you want to explore with your DIY chapter. Most likely it can be acomplished without forcing the established fluff.

 

But then again, if your mind is set on the Dark Angels, go ahead!

It's your world to play with after all, but be prepared that some people might feel that you are disregarding rules they consider to be set in stone. There is nothing wrong with having different views on what is and is not possible, just make sure people know that you are aware of how your thinking differs from theirs.

 

Best of luck to you mate :woot:

Cheers!

[Jareddm]

It's difficult getting something interesting (unique =\\= interesting!) out of a DA successor chapter which doesn't know of the Fallen, since everything the DA are is because of the Fallen.

It's kinda like taking the Codex out of the Ultramarines or Fenris out of the Space Wolfs, or self-hatred and bionics out of the Iron Hands.

Can it be done, sure! But what's left?

 

Rather than busting your brains out trying to think of a reason a successor chapter wouldn't know of the Fallen, why don't you think about what themes you want to explore with your DIY chapter. Most likely it can be acomplished without forcing the established fluff.

 

I approach development of fluff from an RPG player's perspective, not a wargamer's, so just having an overall theme that can be described in a sentence or two isn't going to cut it. When you're fleshing out individual marines in detail rather than armies, there's a lot more flexibility in how their chapter can be represented.

 

Making a chapter unique within set boundaries is what makes it fun. For instance, a dark angel successor who not only didn't know of the Fallen, but was never told of the tradition of the lion and the wolf. Years later, a marine of that chapter finds himself face to face with a Space Wolf Long Fang, who immediately draws his blade and takes a combat stance. The Dark Angel successor simply looks at him quizzically. The dialogue concerning bouts of honor and tradition as the Long Fang must explain the tradition to the marine. Or the rage felt by the successor as the Long Fang laughs at him for not knowing his own traditions. Or even the feelings of dishonor as the successor turns his back from the Long Fang, refusing to fight another marine based on the beliefs he WAS taught. There's any number of possibilities that could occur and that thought makes an RPer like me's mouth water.

[Hellios]

It's difficult getting something interesting (unique =\\= interesting!) out of a DA successor chapter which doesn't know of the Fallen, since everything the DA are is because of the Fallen.

It's kinda like taking the Codex out of the Ultramarines or Fenris out of the Space Wolfs, or self-hatred and bionics out of the Iron Hands.

Can it be done, sure! But what's left?

 

Rather than busting your brains out trying to think of a reason a successor chapter wouldn't know of the Fallen, why don't you think about what themes you want to explore with your DIY chapter. Most likely it can be acomplished without forcing the established fluff.

 

I approach development of fluff from an RPG player's perspective, not a wargamer's, so just having an overall theme that can be described in a sentence or two isn't going to cut it. When you're fleshing out individual marines in detail rather than armies, there's a lot more flexibility in how their chapter can be represented.

 

Making a chapter unique within set boundaries is what makes it fun. For instance, a dark angel successor who not only didn't know of the Fallen, but was never told of the tradition of the lion and the wolf. Years later, a marine of that chapter finds himself face to face with a Space Wolf Long Fang, who immediately draws his blade and takes a combat stance. The Dark Angel successor simply looks at him quizzically. The dialogue concerning bouts of honor and tradition as the Long Fang must explain the tradition to the marine. Or the rage felt by the successor as the Long Fang laughs at him for not knowing his own traditions. Or even the feelings of dishonor as the successor turns his back from the Long Fang, refusing to fight another marine based on the beliefs he WAS taught. There's any number of possibilities that could occur and that thought makes an RPer like me's mouth water.

 

 

That's the point why? Why don't they know about the Lion and the Wolf but know they are sons of the Lion? If they don't know they are sons of the Lion then I doubt the SWs will know. Also I believe the duel is some kind of ritual with chosen champions... not just X drawing a blade on Y.

 

If you have a story in mind then post it up in the Librarium and I'm sure they will give better and more specific criticism/advice than we will here on your vague concept.

[Jareddm]

That's the point why? Why don't they know about the Lion and the Wolf but know they are sons of the Lion? If they don't know they are sons of the Lion then I doubt the SWs will know. Also I believe the duel is some kind of ritual with chosen champions... not just X drawing a blade on Y.

 

If you have a story in mind then post it up in the Librarium and I'm sure they will give better and more specific criticism/advice than we will here on your vague concept.

Just because a man is of German descent doesn't mean he knows the tales of Charlemagne. For the same reasons a Lion successor wouldn't know about the Unforgiven, they could've not been told about the Lion and the Wolf. And if both marines are part of the deathwatch or for some other reason there are no others around, then that would be the case.

 

This isn't about writing a story, it's about using deeper characterizations to create more compelling chapters that simply can't be described in a sentence or two. That there's no reason to reject an idea on principle just because making it work is hard.

[TrashMan]

AFAIK, the geneseed makes marines behaviorally more like the primarch.

So that is one thing that helps define a chapter.

Other is belief, organizational structure, etc...

 

But really, is the Fallen issue all there is to the DA? All there is to the Lion? I kinda find such a restrctive view dissapointing, as it seems to reduce entire chapters to caricatures.

 

 

I find the best chapters feel like they develop naturally. Throw them in situation X. How they react, how they change/grow is cruical and interesting.

 

Now this is all hypothetical discussion.

 

I confess I have toyed with the idea to change the origins of my DIY chapter (Phoenix Knights), to get away from the unknown-genessed. I considered both Dorn and Lion as the Primachs, and I found DA sucessors are too damn restricted exactly because they all end up being clones.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

AFAIK, the geneseed makes marines behaviorally more like the primarch.

So that is one thing that helps define a chapter.

Other is belief, organizational structure, etc...

 

But really, is the Fallen issue all there is to the DA? All there is to the Lion? I kinda find such a restrctive view dissapointing, as it seems to reduce entire chapters to caricatures.

 

 

I find the best chapters feel like they develop naturally. Throw them in situation X. How they react, how they change/grow is cruical and interesting.

 

Now this is all hypothetical discussion.

 

I confess I have toyed with the idea to change the origins of my DIY chapter (Phoenix Knights), to get away from the unknown-genessed. I considered both Dorn and Lion as the Primachs, and I found DA sucessors are too damn restricted exactly because they all end up being clones.

The Fallen are a fundamental portion of what makes the Unforgiven, yes. It's what makes them be a secretive Chapter, and the cause for their prolonged periods of worship to ensure the zeal of all Battle Brothers. Lacking exact knowledge of their origins, however, you can stress any aspect of the Unforgiven's behavior as a "tradition lost in time." Perhaps a whole range of traditions related to the study of what may have motivated their predecessors to act as they do emerged over time?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

AFAIK, the geneseed makes marines behaviorally more like the primarch.

So that is one thing that helps define a chapter.

Other is belief, organizational structure, etc...

 

But really, is the Fallen issue all there is to the DA? All there is to the Lion? I kinda find such a restrctive view dissapointing, as it seems to reduce entire chapters to caricatures.

 

 

I find the best chapters feel like they develop naturally. Throw them in situation X. How they react, how they change/grow is cruical and interesting.

 

Now this is all hypothetical discussion.

 

I confess I have toyed with the idea to change the origins of my DIY chapter (Phoenix Knights), to get away from the unknown-genessed. I considered both Dorn and Lion as the Primachs, and I found DA sucessors are too damn restricted exactly because they all end up being clones.

 

Its not all there is to the DA and the Lion. Theres a lot more, such as the brilliant tactical mind that he, and his successors have. The aloofness they feel towards other mortals, the Knightly feel that they have. These are just the start, then there is the influences from each home world and their own experiences.

 

Of course another question to answer is how they feel in relation to the Legion.

[Hellios]

This isn't about writing a story, it's about using deeper characterizations to create more compelling chapters that simply can't be described in a sentence or two. That there's no reason to reject an idea on principle just because making it work is hard.

 

I never said otherwise but sometimes you can try too hard to force something where it doesn't belong... and I think you are over simplifying the the Lion and the Wolf duels... Why do you need deep characters if they have no story... This is Dave... he is really deep but errm he has never done anything so we are moving on... Not all stories are about car chases and explosions... Some are about relationships between characters... As I said the question is why...

 

and your example with Germans and the Unforgiven is not comparing like for like...

[Jareddm]

I never said otherwise but sometimes you can try too hard to force something where it doesn't belong... and I think you are over simplifying the the Lion and the Wolf duels... Why do you need deep characters if they have no story... This is Dave... he is really deep but errm he has never done anything so we are moving on... Not all stories are about car chases and explosions... Some are about relationships between characters...

And like I said, I'm an RPG player. I don't need a story thought up ahead of time, I only need an interesting and deep character. Then I have the 40k RPGs to play out those characters.

 

As I said the question is why...

For the challenge of it. Anyone can play a Blood Angel assault marine or a Dark Angel devastator marine. The fun is in making a character that makes you think more deeply about them. What differentiates the work of a White Scars techmarine from an Ultramarine one? How would a Salamander's upbringing affect his duties as an apothecary? They're all codex chapters, would you say the answer is nothing?

[Candleshoes]

although it hasnt been explicitly stated i believe the star phantoms are of dark angel stock and they have very little to do with the fallen.. they are very gloomy though.

 

It was never explicitly stated that they are of Dark Angel Gene Seed. This is the direct quote:

 

"Some sources have since hinted that they utilised Dark Angels gene-seed, although this has been vehemently denied by the Dark Angels themselves, and the Star Phantoms consider such queries, even via official channels, as inherently presumptuous and cause for offence."

 

In fluff reality, they are likely decendants of Dark Angels and the denial on both parts is made only to further the avenues the Star Phantoms can persue on behalf of the Inner Circles' agenda. It is very likely there are many Inner Circle loyal, Dark Angel successors who publically claim that they are not, but are truthfully another cog in the great wheel that is the First Legion.