Dark Angel sucessors that aren't obsessed with the Fallen?

[TrashMan]

Its not all there is to the DA and the Lion. Theres a lot more, such as the brilliant tactical mind that he, and his successors have. The aloofness they feel towards other mortals, the Knightly feel that they have. These are just the start, then there is the influences from each home world and their own experiences.

 

Of course another question to answer is how they feel in relation to the Legion.

 

Well, I was thinking, sicne they were left alone and unmolested for hunderds of years at the endge of imperium space, that they really don't care much, sicne they've grown very independent and self-sufficient.

Always glad to help any battle-brother from any chapter, especially any DA sucessor, but generally removed and disinterested in bickering between chapters.

They are still very knightly and gret tacticians, as it befits any son or the Lion. Aloof? Not so much.

[march10k]

But really, is the Fallen issue all there is to the DA?

 

Until such time as they are redeemed by destroying or causing to repent all of the fallen, in a word, yes. Any forces that aren't actively engaged in pursuing a hot lead on one of the fallen will certainly be made available for general service to the imperium...at times, that may be the overwhelming majority of the unforgiven, but should a fallen brother suddenly turn up, all bets are off. 'Tis better that whole worlds perish than that but one fallen brother go un-captured a moment longer than necessary. Hunting the fallen isn't all the Unforgiven do, but it does absolutely dominate their mindset and override all other priorities. For that matter, I'd think that seeing any Ravenwing on a battlefield would be exceedingly rare. I imagine them to be dispersed in singles and pairs across the galaxy, operating networks of spies and informants and obsessively sifting through local news for anything that might smack of a clue. I'd be surprised if the inquisition had better intelligence than the Ravenwing provides to the Unforgiven.

[ShadowHaunt]

Well, I'm by no means an expert in DA lore, but the idea of a DA successor with no knowledge of the Fallen does have a certain hook in it that's extremely interesting. Just because the Chapter doesn't know about the Fallen, by no means indicates that the Fallen do not know of them. They could come under attack from forces orchestrated by the Fallen, without ever actually understanding why - like any non-DA Chapter, to them one of the Fallen is no more than another Chaos Marine. Yet somehow, this opponent whom they face so often, knows so much of their tactics, organization, even their traditions, they begin to become more secretive. Perhaps they even receive help from time to time, from other DA successors who are "in the know", but since this Chapter has nobody in the Inner Circle, they miss the hidden signals from their brethren.

 

To make it even more twisted, there is the possibility that such a Chapter was created on purpose by the IC, expressly to lure out the Fallen. An entire Chapter, used as unwitting bait, in order to pull the Fallen into the open. And what happens when this Chapter realizes that they are bait? The possibilities are staggering, the number of shades of grey in a single storyline nearly endless.

[Malthe]

Surely the other Unforgiven would teach such a chapter of their inheritance?

Unless they somehow were extremely untrustworhty...

I cannot see a situation where a chapter that were known to be of the Lion's gene-seed would not be taught of the Fallen.

If a such a chapter did not know from which legion they originated I could maybe see it happen.

But how that would happen, I don't know :unsure:

 

Also I doubt that any chapter with a primarch unknow would be much alike 'their' legion.

I think nuture beats nature om that one.

 

But by all means try to make it work. Just realise it might(!) be more reward, and certainly easier to explore the themes in question from another angle. Especially if you only want to focus on a single character.

 

Cheers :unsure:

[Jareddm]

To make it even more twisted, there is the possibility that such a Chapter was created on purpose by the IC, expressly to lure out the Fallen. An entire Chapter, used as unwitting bait, in order to pull the Fallen into the open. And what happens when this Chapter realizes that they are bait? The possibilities are staggering, the number of shades of grey in a single storyline nearly endless.

I like this a lot, though I'm wondering how the Fallen would've known about their geneseed. Perhaps the Unforgiven purposefully allowed this information to be "lost" during the chapter's founding. And if the chapter is being used as bait, does that mean the Unforgiven were constantly watching them without the chapter knowing? Perhaps it was a particular group of Fallen, like how the Disciples of Caliban were made specifically to hunt down Cypher. The new chapter's homeworld would've been chosen less for it's inhabitants martial prowess(though still formidable) and more for it's proximity to a region where this particular group of Fallen were believed to be hiding. It'd be interesting to see the conversation between Azrael and the younger chapter master after this particular group of Fallen were killed or captured.

 

Why bother? Because world-building is fun.

[Malthe]

But why would a group of Fallen ever want to go near such a chapter, even if they somehow knew of it's special situation? It seems like a horrible idea for them to go hunting in the lion's nest... Please forgive the pun.

Also it would be an incredibly risky move by the Unforgiven to gamble so recklessly with a whole chapter.

Not to mention; a terribly dishonourable thing to do, taking the traditions of the Dark Angels into consideration.

 

Personally I think a chapter that had knowingly chosen not to hunt the Fallen, would be a lot more interesting than a chapter that somehow didn't know about them.

But that's just my subjective opinion.

 

Please forgive my overt sceptisism, it is meant to be constructive :)

[Jareddm]

But why would a group of Fallen ever want to go near such a chapter, even if they somehow knew of it's special situation? It seems like a horrible idea for them to go hunting in the lion's nest... Please forgive the pun.

I agree. It's certainly a gamble on the part of the Unforgiven, but it's certainly not implausible. The idea would be letting the necessary information fall to chaos without it appearing as a trap.

 

Also it would be an incredibly risky move by the Unforgiven to gamble so recklessly with a whole chapter.

Creating an entire chapter to hunt down a single individual seems like an even bigger waste. Yet it's been done.

 

Not to mention; a terribly dishonourable thing to do, taking the traditions of the Dark Angels into consideration.

When it comes to hunting Fallen, I wouldn't put anything past the Unforgiven. As people have said before, the fact that they drop their allies, including fellow astartes, when a Fallen reveals itself certainly supports them trying such a plan.

 

Personally I think a chapter that had knowingly chosen not to hunt the Fallen, would be a lot more interesting than a chapter that somehow didn't know about them.

As I have been yelled at for previously, people don't seem to think the Unforgiven would allow a chapter to exist that knew about the Fallen but refused to hunt them. That said, I agree that such a chapter would be extremely interesting.

 

But that's just my subjective opinion.

 

Please forgive my overt sceptisism, it is meant to be constructive :confused:

And I thank you for providing it.

[Hellios]

I never said otherwise but sometimes you can try too hard to force something where it doesn't belong... and I think you are over simplifying the the Lion and the Wolf duels... Why do you need deep characters if they have no story... This is Dave... he is really deep but errm he has never done anything so we are moving on... Not all stories are about car chases and explosions... Some are about relationships between characters...

And like I said, I'm an RPG player. I don't need a story thought up ahead of time, I only need an interesting and deep character. Then I have the 40k RPGs to play out those characters.

 

As I said the question is why...

For the challenge of it. Anyone can play a Blood Angel assault marine or a Dark Angel devastator marine. The fun is in making a character that makes you think more deeply about them. What differentiates the work of a White Scars techmarine from an Ultramarine one? How would a Salamander's upbringing affect his duties as an apothecary? They're all codex chapters, would you say the answer is nothing?

 

 

No you missed my point... I RP as well... and I normally play a character that isn't all that powerful and with a background which I try and stick with throughout the game... to such a degree that it sometimes annoys other people in my party... What you are talking about can be done with existing chapters.. what makes a Dark Angel devastator different from an UM Devastator... You are already playing within confined limits which you apparently find fun... Adding things can be ok as well... The question is why are you adding them... Do you just want to add something that isn't there and possibly doesn't belong or are you adding something that adds to the Universe... Whatever the background is... If the answer is yes then you need to ask yourself why... Apparently you like in depth then you should be asking is it like this in Universe not I'll do this because it is a Challenge. I created a fantasy world for a campaign and I could have thrown in a load of crazy monsters because it would have been a challenge and my play group likes challenges... What I did was create a world with culture and history that had reasons for things being the way they are.

 

 

When RPing a character you have two stories to look at which are not the stories you are playing... As you say the culture that the character belongs to... In this case his chapter... and I ask why it exists... The high lords don't seem to use the Lions pure geneseed as their first choice when making chapters... So why did they use it in the case of this chapter... Why didn't they use Dark Angels or their successors as the experienced troops to train the chapter. If the chapter really lost all these important people early on then you are looking at losing a lot of key people including the capter master, company masters, Chief apothecary, Master of Sanctity and Chief Librarian... If the chapter is really so young that it hasn't been intitated into all the secrets of the Dark Angels then how is it going to survive without these people? The most senior figure they might have left whomisn't in the know is the Master of the Forge. A chapter in such a state would likely seek harbour with kin while they rebuild their strength... or in the time honoured tradition of marines... go out in a blaze of glory and bolter shots.

 

Then you have the characters own story... so far... his own story... the story of his life so far.. before you play the game.

 

It is the first one that is a big issue here as some flimsy story just ruins the whole setting... You need to answer the why and the answer needs to be good. It needs to odd enough to make it the exception (which as far as we know it is...) but it needs to be simple enough that it doesn't sound like a string of excuses to make things your own way otherwise your background may as well be "Just well because"...

[TrashMan]

Surely the other Unforgiven would teach such a chapter of their inheritance?

 

I cannot see a situation where a chapter that were known to be of the Lion's gene-seed would not be taught of the Fallen.

If a such a chapter did not know from which legion they originated I could maybe see it happen.

 

Not necessarily. Aren't DA extreemly secretive? Only a few within the DA are privy to that (the IC, the Ravenwing).

Would they be so quick to trust a chapter that has been gone for hunderdes of years? A chapter that has changed considerably in those years? A chapter who may have mutations in their geneseed?

 

That's all assuming they know the chapter in question doesn't know. The galaxy is big. News travel slow.

By the time the DA figure out the chapter doesn't know about the Fallen, nurture has done it's thing.

 

 

 

But the main issue of my idea is the possibility of gene-seed mutation. (for now, the idea is increased regeneration and lifespan, and affinity to pryromancy. Downsides: some other glands either not functioning or functioning at reduced efficiency)

 

How would the Fallen react to that? The Inquisition? the ADMech?

Could the chapter send a small stock of pure geneseed as tithe, like hte BA do? (assuming it has some. Also assuming it didn't send any after it re-amerged, as it was trying to rebuild, and it only re-established contact with Mars years later)

 

Or would the Chapter master go strainght for Mars and Terra, to submit the gene-seed and his chapter to all kinds of test and probing? How would it go?

[TrashMan]

If the chapter is really so young that it hasn't been intitated into all the secrets of the Dark Angels then how is it going to survive without these people? The most senior figure they might have left whomisn't in the know is the Master of the Forge. A chapter in such a state would likely seek harbour with kin while they rebuild their strength... or in the time honoured tradition of marines... go out in a blaze of glory and bolter shots.

 

Why wouldn't they survive?

Space Marines aren't headless chickens. Plenty of chapters got reduced to almost nothing and survived.

You loose a chapter master - the highest ranking marine left takes over. Simple.

 

Why did they not seek harbor with their kin? Plenty of possible reasons.

Maybe they see their losses as a faliure and desire to rebuild themselves as penannce?

Maybe, since they're in the back end of nowhere, they consider it better to stay where they are and rebuild, rather than risk being attacked again on their trip back and loosing everything?

Maybe they just consider protection of the sub-sector their scared duty, and not even such heavy losses wil ldeter them from their course?

Maybe they desire to be self-sufficient?

Maybe the warp storm confined them to that system for decades?

 

 

Any of those reasons good enough?

[march10k]

You loose a chapter master

 

;)

 

Visions of a marine being launched from an enormous bow dancing through my head....

[TrashMan]

Why not? The Anrgy Marines have their Angry Marine Launcher! That would be just a low-tech solution!

[Wayward]

My 2 cents on this:

 

Codex states that DA and succesors are NORMAL CODEX CHAPTERS except for the 1st and 2nd companies, wich take care of The Hunt. So, on this scenario, nothing strange would happen at first, they will be a normal Space Marine chapter... I dont know how far the geneseed alone goes for itself. It may change the implanted marines a bit, make em in the case of the Lions, more taciturn, introspectives? Better tacticians? You have to remember that The Hunt isnt something the Lion called for... In fact, nobody knows what the Lions oppinion about it. HH novels kind of made the Lion a doubty fellow, but I prefferred the older view, it made the Modern DAs a more desperate lot, trying to atone for their sins and tidy things up before his Father comes back...

 

Returning to the DIY chap: things will be allright until the IC notices an Unforgiven succesor without an IC cadre at its command... They will surely will want to know what happened and how much they know about everything. So, some degree of conflict and interference is expected for sure.

[TrashMan]

And that's exaclty what interest me. What kind of reaction is to be expected from the DA?

 

They find out one of their sucessor chapters - that's been presumed lost in the warp - is now operating under a different name, has taken control over an entire star system, possibly has gene-seed mutation and a rather different outlook at things.

And then you find out that none of the IC or original command structure survived, and they don't want to talk about what exactly happed. (Because they themselves don't exactly know and suspect treason was the reason the Chaos attack was so sucesfull)

 

How would try react to any of those points?

I dont' think there woudl be any trust there.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think you just described what could be looked at as modern Fallen from the DA point of view. I think you just set up a situation where at the least many of the highest ranking Marines left get interrogated intensely and an all out Chapter extermination could happen if the answers aren't sterling to the Supreme Grand Master. After all, look at the facts, lost in the Warp (potentially contaminated/tainted by Chaos - the very thing the Fallen are accused of and the reason for the Hunt), operatic under a different name (why would this even happen and it seems like an attempt at evading knowledge of who the Chapter is when others contact them - very suspicious), gene seed mutation (further evidence of tainting by Chaos?)... All in all, I don't think the cards are going to play in the favor of this Chapter.

[march10k]

Codex states that DA and succesors are NORMAL CODEX CHAPTERS except for the 1st and 2nd companies

 

I don't have my codex at work with me, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's clipped out of context. IIRC, the passage you're referring to relates to their organizational structure only, not to their tactics, techniques, and procedures. Remember the story of a DA battle force abruptly pulling out of a huge war to go hunt a newly unmasked fallen brother? That wasn't just DW and RW, that was greenmarines, too...

[TrashMan]

I think you just described what could be looked at as modern Fallen from the DA point of view. I think you just set up a situation where at the least many of the highest ranking Marines left get interrogated intensely and an all out Chapter extermination could happen if the answers aren't sterling to the Supreme Grand Master. After all, look at the facts, lost in the Warp (potentially contaminated/tainted by Chaos - the very thing the Fallen are accused of and the reason for the Hunt), operatic under a different name (why would this even happen and it seems like an attempt at evading knowledge of who the Chapter is when others contact them - very suspicious), gene seed mutation (further evidence of tainting by Chaos?)... All in all, I don't think the cards are going to play in the favor of this Chapter.

 

Operating under a different name has two reasons:

1)Given the accuracy of the attack, there is a high possibility of treason by someone from the Imperium. What are the chances of a Chaos fleet attacking you right after you enter the warp and knowing exactly where to strike being random luck? So, not knowing whom to trust, keeping a low profile until they rebuild is a smart course of action.

2) The events that happened in the earliest days of the chapter and it's near anihilation had a dramatic impact, and thus the name change. In honor of the fallen and those that survived.

 

But yes, you are right, the relationship with the DA would be tenious at best. I don't see them ever trusting the chapter with the Fallen story.

[Bryan Blaire]

Honestly, I don't think they'd let a Chapter like that survive. Almost everything you described sounds like an almost death sentence for a DA Successor Chapter. These guys are already paranoid enough with the Fallen running around, I'm not so sure a Chapter with that many issues would be permitted to stay around when all they would do is possibly cause more questions about the Dark Angels, especially when they couldn't be trusted with the Fallen secret, but may actually run into the Fallen. I think the best they could hope for would be almost constant surveillance, possibly being forced to accept some "loyal" DA back into their structure, and probable destruction the very first time a Fallen is encountered unless they handle it very, very well, but my guess is that there would be a very real possibility of destruction under the guise of "destroying a tainted traitor Chapter" rather quickly for these guys. After all, it is very plausible that the Dark Angels destroyed the Ophidium Gulf and its Black Templar compliment, and we all know they kill the Fallen, so it doesn't seem like any particular Legion gene-line is safe from destruction by the Dark Angels and their Successors, and it seems like they will go through some very serious lengths to eliminate security risks.

 

As far as answer 1, the Dark Angels know that the forces of Chaos aren't loyal to each other, from there point of view, the Chaos fleet could have just been attempting to eliminate a rival warband... Perhaps the "loyal" training cadre had already been killed prior to the new Chapter's fleet translating to the Warp. I don't think the DA would look very highly on the loyalty of Marines that don't even make their first Warp translation without issues of that magnitude.

 

For answer 2, that kind of evasion would probably set off the paranoid DAs "unloyal" detector. After all, they are keeping a huge secret, so any evasion probably looks like an attempt to keep secrets as well. I doubt seriously that it is very well looked on for Unforgiven to keep secrets from each other. At the very least, the issues would be ferreted out, likely forcibly.

[Brother Immolator]

Personally I think a chapter that had knowingly chosen not to hunt the Fallen, would be a lot more interesting than a chapter that somehow didn't know about them.

 

It is written in one of the deathwatch RPG supplements,that the angels of absolution is doing exactly that.They just dont care about the sins of the past.

It is also written that this has them in a shunned upon position,to the point were a schism may be forming between them and the rest of the unforgiven.

 

Also it would be an incredibly risky move by the Unforgiven to gamble so recklessly with a whole chapter.

Creating an entire chapter to hunt down a single individual seems like an even bigger waste. Yet it's been done.

 

I would agree with that but...Said individual has caused more trouble to the DA and the imperium than Abaddon.Well i exaggerate,but he got captured dozens of times and escaped,died countless times and here he is again,caused untold sectors to destabilize and lets not forget the personal grudges against the DA.

So i wouldnt say a waste exactly.

[Bryan Blaire]

Really, Brother Immolator, because that's almost the opposite of the idea from the Codex? The Angels of Absolution believe they've had the "sin" of the Fallen expunged, but they participate in the Hunt eager to mete out punishment to the Fallen for their traitorous actions/nature. They are also the Chapter that was indicated as having some of the best relations with the DA and coordinating a lot of actions with them.

 

That would be an interesting new twist in the storyline/concept behind the Unforgiven and hopefully we'll see some of that idea explored in the next Codex. I'd also like to see some movement in the Angels of Redemption and their slide to emnity with other forces of the Imperium. Maybe they are finally going to out the Dark Angels as not entirely loyal to the Imperium (which they aren't, they are actively disloyal by pursuing their own agenda and disregarding the agenda of the High Lords of Terra).

[TrashMan]

Honestly, I don't think they'd let a Chapter like that survive. Almost everything you described sounds like an almost death sentence for a DA Successor Chapter. These guys are already paranoid enough with the Fallen running around, I'm not so sure a Chapter with that many issues would be permitted to stay around when all they would do is possibly cause more questions about the Dark Angels, especially when they couldn't be trusted with the Fallen secret, but may actually run into the Fallen. I think the best they could hope for would be almost constant surveillance, possibly being forced to accept some "loyal" DA back into their structure, and probable destruction the very first time a Fallen is encountered unless they handle it very, very well, but my guess is that there would be a very real possibility of destruction under the guise of "destroying a tainted traitor Chapter" rather quickly for these guys. After all, it is very plausible that the Dark Angels destroyed the Ophidium Gulf and its Black Templar compliment, and we all know they kill the Fallen, so it doesn't seem like any particular Legion gene-line is safe from destruction by the Dark Angels and their Successors, and it seems like they will go through some very serious lengths to eliminate security risks.

 

As far as answer 1, the Dark Angels know that the forces of Chaos aren't loyal to each other, from there point of view, the Chaos fleet could have just been attempting to eliminate a rival warband... Perhaps the "loyal" training cadre had already been killed prior to the new Chapter's fleet translating to the Warp. I don't think the DA would look very highly on the loyalty of Marines that don't even make their first Warp translation without issues of that magnitude.

 

For answer 2, that kind of evasion would probably set off the paranoid DAs "unloyal" detector. After all, they are keeping a huge secret, so any evasion probably looks like an attempt to keep secrets as well. I doubt seriously that it is very well looked on for Unforgiven to keep secrets from each other. At the very least, the issues would be ferreted out, likely forcibly.

 

You make good points. DA are a very paranoid bunch. So the chapter has to either:

- not contact the other DA and never mention their lineage. If the DA doesn't find out the new chapter that appeared on the other edge of space is of their geneseed, they won't come after them.

- have influence. Possibly with the Inquisition or AD Mech. Given the other bits of Phoenix Knights backstory, both are possible, especially the Ad Mech.

- be really, REALLY convincing when they meet the DA gain. They could also lie about what hapened to them. There's plenty of hostile factions that could have almost wiped out a chapter besides chaos.

[march10k]

Here's another issue. Can the Unforgiven know for sure that there isn't a "faulty geneseed" component to the fall? After all, it seems like every other geneseed (except maybe the ultras) has some sort of taint. They'd have to tie in so closely with any daughter-chapter for the purpose of monitoring for any sign of taint-induced treason that they'd probably have no choice but to read that chapter in on the hunt for the fallen, right?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

...daughter-chapter...

 

ZOMG FEMALE SPACE MARINES! PUUUURGE!

 

... Always thought Chapters were male. >_>

 

Ahem.

 

While there is not sure way to know if the Fallen's geneseed has any fault, it isn't an impossibility. As we know from Fallen Angels, Luther was planning to draw on the power of the Daemon inside Caliban, so Fallen with corrupted geneseed is a plausible theory.

[TrashMan]

Here's another issue. Can the Unforgiven know for sure that there isn't a "faulty geneseed" component to the fall?

 

Possible, but there's many, many chapters with faulty gene-seed that are perfectly loyal.

If faulty gene-seed was reason enough for chapter anihilation, half the chapters wouldn't exist.

 

They'd have to tie in so closely with any daughter-chapter for the purpose of monitoring for any sign of taint-induced treason that they'd probably have no choice but to read that chapter in on the hunt for the fallen, right?

 

Not necessarily. You don't have to give the sucessor-chapter full discolsure to monitor them.

[Phoebus]

Personally, I think the Star Phantoms are the template that was offered as an implied example fo what happens when a Dark Angels-descended Chapter suffers from one of the hypothetical examples discussed in this thread.

 

Assuming the Unforgiven fail to reconnect with their "lost" Chapter or establish an Inner Circle to begin with, I think that's what their reaction would be: "They are not of us. Do not ask any more questions." Conversely, the shame of being rejected by their "ancestors" would probably lead a Chapter to react similarly to the Star Phantoms themselves. They would feel shame, but would also not understand why they had been rejected. And they certainly wouldn't want to discuss their shame with outsiders.