Deus Mortem Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Hello, Recently started just building a GK army, And was talking to a buddy who shuddered when I mentioned about adding coteaz. He said his army was total cheese, I was alittle confused as I haven't played 40k in over year & can't see in his rules how he can be that bad? Any help clarifying? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Cheese doesn't exist unless you have the intellect of a twelve year old. Anything can be beaten if you do it right Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Mortem Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 And I completely agree, but my question still stands. What give coteaz his rep? Any tips on actually using him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 The Henchman army can bring some nasty Close combat units, but lacks the balance of a GK list. Many of the ''cheese" units require additional resources to be spent in order to get the full potential, and they can quickly become overpriced. The Henchmen units also occupy your troops slots, leaving you only expensive other units to take in your other slots Ex: DCA have the feared I6, S4 powerweapons, but don't get grenades unless jumping from a Landraider crusader or redeemer. (another 250 pts, nearly double the full squad) 3 servitors are cheep, but must be babysat by an Inquisitor or they can mindlock. Techmarines do not prevent this, only Inquisitors can (Max of 2, 1 of which must be coteaz)(Though that is where his abilities are the best, in my opinion) The squads can be made firepower heavy, but only at BS3, so half the shots are missing. And I can continue... Don't get me wrong, I love my Henchman Army, but it definitely isn't an easy one to master, and in no way a cheesy one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Mortem Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 Thanks, I'm still building & list making. So I'll see what I can come up with a mix force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I think if anything, because it's led to my first use of a possibly 'Cheesy' force, because he was deceptively uncheesey until I realised Whyches make damn fine DCA and I had 30 of them.... Also I'll be getting around 40 Kaskrin at some point, so 50 Hot shot lasguns in chimeras for less than 1200 points... Damn. I have turned to the Dark Side...I just wanted to show people at my local that there were other things than Draigowing... But for 100 points he can batter an Avatar or Demon Prince to death on the charge, provided they don't get to hit back else he gets instadeathed. If he had any sort of Inv he would be just awful.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
undeadsoldier Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Coteaz by himself isnt OP, its what he can unlock. 62 point razorbacks with 3 strength 6 shots on an unstunnable chassis is pretty mean. 6 of those and you have barely used any of your points leaving you so many points to fill out the rest of the force org. This army has bad match- ups such as blood angels jumpers or tyranids. He opens up a lot of options one being re rolls to steal the initiative. Add in 5 tlac dreads and a vindicare and you can shut down some bodies mech turn one. Any list has its downfalls though. I got sick of having useless troops and no one at my store wanting to play the list. So now I mix it up a lot, but I always bring coteaz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Cheese doesn't exist unless you have the intellect of a twelve year old. Anything can be beaten if you do it right It exists I assure you, I've seen it myself... Sure it was dark and I had a fever but it was there in the dairy section. Oh and yes anything can be beaten in a game of luck or you happen to have the right list to counter something... Cheese isn't the army itself but the mind behind it. On that note I don't think mister C is cheese. My one wish is that the armchair inquisitor could fit inside transports... I would do a pure hench army then... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 the AoD 3ed and pre nerf IG siege company with unnerfed hellfire mortars were cheez. but anyway . What is good about cortez . he is cheap and has good rules [ive been expecting you] and he makes henchman troops . now if taking him ment GK options are closed then he would be ok , but nothing special [like playing a melta vets army for IG but without valks/vendettas ] . Thing is you can take him and GKs. that is why he is good . you take realy cheap troops for shoting 2-4 units ,with GK razors mixed with chimeras[up to 1750 probably 50/50 mix] . But the real bonus is combinations you can get with him . techmarine grenadier+ DCA/cru mix . ultra cheap scoring units which still work well [4DCA in a psyback . cheap still deadly can help to finish of an HQ or a shot up squad] . and its not just at squads level . imagine your playing an IG army . you get the vets[warriors] the chimers[same] the hydras[the rifleman] , you counter is by stun locking[doesnt work so well as GK ignore that ] and tieing up in hth . only the cortez list instead of the 2 lemmans or lemman and marbo puts 5-10 paldins infront of the whole army . suddenly tieing up in cc aint an option . worse those paladins can just walk to you [some will die] and they will still be effective and to kill them all you will need a lot of fire power . that is why cortez is the best special HQ in the game right now , up there with the storm lord . the way both of those influence game play , army options etc is just huge . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 ... Imotekh the Storm Lord is awful, and no Necron player in their right mind takes him as anything other than a mildly effective artillery defence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3032913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 3 turns of night fight if you play farm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 That's what I meant. 3 turns of Night Fighting. Wow. That's so worth the price of five Canoptek Spyders. Yes, that was sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell. You could have 2 turns of Night Fighting for less than a hundred points using Solar Pulses, and you'd still have your two Overlords spamming double-court leaders into your squads. On top of that, I've had enemies fail their Night Fighting rolls maybe eight times in the last six years. It's pretty much useless against the majority of armies we struggle against anyway because they'll be in your face on turn 2 or have Acute Senses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Cotaez is considered Cheesey, for a couple reasons. Mostly because he unlocks Henchmen as troops (which is one of the most effective armies in the game. Cheap MSU vehicle spam, 3-6 Dreads, Death Cultists as counter assault units.) Further he is very undercosted for what he gets compared to other Inquisitors. He has a 2+ save (only one inquisitor can even get this and he needs Terminator armor for a good chunk of points.), he has Psychic mastery level 2 with 3 powers, regular inquisitors only get 1 power again for a good ammount of points. So to get an inquisitor even close Terminator w/ Daemon Hammer, and Hammer hand you pay 75ish points. So for 25 points you get 2 extra psychic powers (1 good), I've Been expecting you, Henchmen as troops, and the ability to almost never get siezed, and to seize really well.(you only get Seized 1/36th of the time, but you sieze about 30% of the time) As for Necrons, Immotek is actually quite good in many builds (remember you can take 2 pulses and him to get possibly an entire game of night fighting, also remeber that nightfighting Caps all range at 36", acute senses or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 1: Reroll Sieze. Your opponent lucks out rolls a '6' whoops for joy and scuppers your deployment. Nope, soz, reroll that please... 2: I've been expecting you. Attach coteaz to your shooty pew pew of death. Watch as WWP Deldar pack up and go home. Other DSers DS next to Warp Quakes and are placed withing 12" of Coteaz. Blam Blam thank you mam. 3: Unlocks Warrior Accolytes. 7 points for a Storm Bolter. 4: Is a S8 Daemonhammer, oh and you can't Assault him. Have fun. 5: Unlocks the only way to have a sizeable amount of Meltaguns in your GK army. An army that is balanced by, you guessed it, not having access to sizeable amounts of melta guns. 6: Is cheap. 7: Unlocks DCA. 8: (as mentioned above) Unlocks 62 point Scoring S6 Heavy Bolter Razorbacks. Mech is king. All hail 62 point S6 vehicles of doom. Oh, that also provide cover to the 6 LT Autocannon Dreads that are going to ruin your opponent. 9: Allows the second largest weakness of a GK army to be mitigated. Always outnumber? No, not if you bring 72 IG for 288 points... All this and more! Coteaz is a *steal*! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 As a Necron, you will almost never be engaging at 36". Necrons operate at the same 'sweet spot' range as GK - 12"-24" - so night fighting really is pretty poor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Coteaz vs Emperor's Champion..... Cheeze melts before youre eyes. EG: Oh you want to go first, by all means bring youre cc units closer by all means, thats where i want you anyway. Oh youve been expecting me, well youre in luck i stand right in front of you. And he is basic S3 that means his Daemon hammer is S6 in close combat, and he will most likely never use it when he is charged by the unit with an Emperor's Champion S6 vs T3 means Coteaz will get hurt. Its quite funny that the oldest marines codex out their has not much trouble dealing with GK cheeze build lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 And he is basic S3 that means his Daemon hammer is S6 in close combat, and he will most likely never use it when he is charged by the unit with an Emperor's Champion S6 vs T3 means Coteaz will get hurt. Hamerhand. And Sanctuary for when someone tries to charge. EC isn't an Eternal Warrior, is he? So a S8 NDH hit will ID him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Not to mention, Cotaez will usually be running around with 5+ DCA and they will kill the EC before he swings. Coteaz vs Emperor's Champion..... Cheeze melts before youre eyes. EG: Oh you want to go first, by all means bring youre cc units closer by all means, thats where i want you anyway. essentially having a guaranteed no sieze means I don't have to deploy worrying about getting siezed, also most cotaez builds are Shooty so I'll go first and blow away a good chunk of your army not move closer to get into CC Oh youve been expecting me, well youre in luck i stand right in front of you. I've been expecting you is situationally useful, and less so with the ruling that it does not work when embarked, but it can be quite good, against Deepstrikers and outflankers. And he is basic S3 that means his Daemon hammer is S6 in close combat, and he will most likely never use it when he is charged by the unit with an Emperor's Champion S6 vs T3 means Coteaz will get hurt. Yes he would die 1 on 1, which is meaningless when the squad he runs with kills the EC. If 1 on 1 combat prowess = cheese, you'd see more people complaining about Abbadon or the Swarmlord, both who would stop the EC pretty easily in CC. Its quite funny that the oldest marines codex out their has not much trouble dealing with GK cheeze build lists. Sure BT can beat GKs, but to say you have no trouble seems to be infering stupidity on the part of your opponent Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Further he is very undercosted for what he gets compared to other Inquisitors. He has a 2+ save (only one inquisitor can even get this and he needs Terminator armor for a good chunk of points.), he has Psychic mastery level 2 with 3 powers, regular inquisitors only get 1 power again for a good ammount of points. So to get an inquisitor even close Terminator w/ Daemon Hammer, and Hammer hand you pay 75ish points. So for 25 points you get 2 extra psychic powers (1 good), I've Been expecting you, Henchmen as troops, and the ability to almost never get siezed, and to seize really well.(you only get Seized 1/36th of the time, but you sieze about 30% of the time) To be fair, every special character included in a 5th edition codex is significantly undercosted compared to creating the equivalent with a generic HQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Stern isn't. :D Maybe that's why no one uses him! LoL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Emperor's Champion has this special rule where he seeks out enemy IC's, even if Coteaz hides in a unit, it wont do him any good as the EC is instantly placed base to base with Coteaz upon entering close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 And that's why you shoot the EC first. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 The Champion is placed in B2B with Coteaz, but that doesn't mean that Defenders React can't let the DCAs dogpile him anyway. In any case, the Necron special characters aren't undercosted compared to an equivalently-armed overlord/cryptek. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 To be fair, every special character included in a 5th edition codex is significantly undercosted compared to creating the equivalent with a generic HQ. :looks at tyranid specials: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3033933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 And that's why you shoot the EC first. :D I know that Assassin is good but i doubt that he can shoot the EC while hes in a Landraider. So at least he will be busy dealing with that Landraider first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250192-what-makes-coteaz-so-bad/#findComment-3034126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.