What makes coteaz so bad?

[*Furyou Miko]

*Shrug* To be honest, Coteaz lists don't worry me. They're basically Guardsmen pretending to be Dominions, only without Scout or Twin-link.

 

Storm Ravens are a pain in the backside to kill though, what with being immune to melta and capable of killing both Exorcists by the start of turn 2.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

*Shrug* To be honest, Coteaz lists don't worry me. They're basically Guardsmen pretending to be Dominions, only without Scout or Twin-link.

 

Storm Ravens are a pain in the backside to kill though, what with being immune to melta and capable of killing both Exorcists by the start of turn 2.

 

Not really. Dominions are Fast Attack (and therefore non-scoring), don't fulfill mandatory Troops slots, and you can't take more than 3 squads total. They also pay for power armour they don't need (T3 means it's hard to get much utility out of 3+ armour, you just take so many wounds from the anti-Marine firepower the meta-game has).

The changes don't stop there. Henchmen get Chimeras (so moar dakka, longer range, firing with five models and better frontal AV), Jokaero (mutable support weapon, and it grants a nice little bonus), and you can technically take the triple melta with a DCA unit (not recommended but hey it's an option). Henchmen also bring storm bolter spam very cheaply (cheapest firepower in the game I think, Devilgaunts are more expensive IIRC).

Stormravens are a problem but not impossible. Your meltaguns still kill hurt it on a 4+, kill on a 5+ and being AP1 means you cause significant damage more reliably. You can't do much about Exorcists getting targeted down, but potentially those Dominions could move into position to kill it in retaliation.

[*Furyou Miko]

Oh, the naivety. 3+ saves are far better on Sisters than they are on Marines because of that T3. Without power armour, we'd get slaughtered by bolters, shurikats, shootas, etc just like the Guard. Power Armour means we can reliably stand up to a full round of shooting from a MEq army and still have enough guns left to do some damage in return.

 

Most AP3 weapons are S6 or higher, with the exception of hot-shot lasguns. At that point, they're wounding Marines on a 2+ as well, so our lesser T doesn't have any effect as far as non-characters are concerned.

 

Anyway, Dominions get Repressors, which are cheaper than Chimeras while still allowing for all four special weapons to fire out. Storm Bolters are meh - if you're Melta'd up, regular bolters will do just fine. A Henchman wit Power Armour and a Storm Bolter comes in at 17 points. Dropping the armour makes you cheaper, but no longer equivalent in terms of resilience - and you're already much less accurate. Unless you get power armour on the henchmen, they'll die to flamers and bolters and never get a second look-in.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh, the naivety. 3+ saves are far better on Sisters than they are on Marines because of that T3. Without power armour, we'd get slaughtered by bolters, shurikats, shootas, etc just like the Guard. Power Armour means we can reliably stand up to a full round of shooting from a MEq army and still have enough guns left to do some damage in return.

 

3+ saves are good, but you aren't Marines, not by a long shot. The difference between T3 and T4 is substantial, without even getting into stuff like better statlines and wargear.

 

Most AP3 weapons are S6 or higher, with the exception of hot-shot lasguns. At that point, they're wounding Marines on a 2+ as well, so our lesser T doesn't have any effect as far as non-characters are concerned.

 

Nobody brings low AP in significant quantities, due to cover saves. However, you do touch on the important point that stuff like multi-laser spam or scatter laser spam works by breaking saves, so in both cases Sisters and Marines are in trouble. The difference is, a bloodied Marine unit can still punch a Sister unit to death (even Tac Marines, the unwanted step-children of the Marine codex), whereas a bloodied Sister unit is only marginally better than a Guardsmen squad (ie it can attrition other chaff, but not by much).

 

Anyway, Dominions get Repressors, which are cheaper than Chimeras while still allowing for all four special weapons to fire out. Storm Bolters are meh - if you're Melta'd up, regular bolters will do just fine. A Henchman wit Power Armour and a Storm Bolter comes in at 17 points. Dropping the armour makes you cheaper, but no longer equivalent in terms of resilience - and you're already much less accurate. Unless you get power armour on the henchmen, they'll die to flamers and bolters and never get a second look-in.

 

I won't get into the Sisters min-dex, it's a horrible example of GW not understanding how their own game works, and nerfing an already mid-tier army even harder into obscurity.

Storm bolters always fire 2 shots at 24" and I can move and shoot with impunity. Bolters are useless at 24", I have to remain stationary and potshot for little effect.

So you want to pay 1pt more than a Tac Marine, for a model that's functionally worse in every measurable way. If I want Marines, I can buy Purifiers for 7pts more who are about three times as good (and I do, Purifiers are fantastic fire support in a Henchmen army).

The thing is, I'm ok with my Henchmen dying horribly outside their Chimera bunker. They're glorified Guardsmen, and my super-cheap upgrades and dirt-cheap base cost (they're cheaper per model than a basic Guardsman). What I don't wanna do is overspend on my weak infantry, because multiple squads with cost-effective shooting is preferable to fewer squads with worse damage output and pretending to be Marines.

[breng77]

]*Shrug* To be honest, Coteaz lists don't worry me. They're basically Guardsmen pretending to be Dominions, only without Scout or Twin-link.

 

Storm Ravens are a pain in the backside to kill though, what with being immune to melta and capable of killing both Exorcists by the start of turn 2.

 

It sounds to me like you have not played against many good cotaez players or builds. Acolytes are not guardsman pretending to be dominions, they are guardsman pretending to be...guardsman. The issue a sisters list is going to have against(at least my cotaez build will be getting close enough to use those meltas and flamers. Against anything useful, and when they do close they need to avoid dying after killing one vehicle.

 

Look at it this way. Dominions run what 125ish for 3 melts shots in a rhino, my typical henhman unit will run about 100 for 3 meltas in either a chimera (better armor, more shooting, more fire points.) or a psyback(more shooting.)