Viability of Nem. Warding Staves in Strike/Purifier Squads

[Murcielago]

If you're hit by 6 plasmas on your squad of 5 guys, you still have to put a plasma shot onto him...along with the bolter

[Gentlemanloser]

No you don't. If he's different.

 

Keeper: Bolter

Puri 1-4: Plasma x4

 

Now you can wrap again;

 

Puri 1-4: Plasma x2, Bolter.

 

The Keeper would only have to take a single Bolter wound.

[Stormshadow]

Edited

[Stormshadow]

Edited

[Gentlemanloser]

I don’t know if I understand you correctly, but if you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, I would say you are cheating…

 

If you have five purifiers, 3x swards and 2x hammers, and they suffer 5 wounds. The correct way of wound allocating would be to put three on the Swords and two on the hammers. Roll three for the swords and two for the hammers.

 

Yes. And you can choose which wounding types you place. For example you could choose to place 3 Plasma's on the 3 Swords.

 

If the knight of flame is still alive however (and is one of the models with a hammer for example). You have to nominate which dice is his saving roll. Put three on the swords, one on the hammer and one on the knight of flame.

 

No.

 

He's just another Hammer Purifier. He's no different to the other Hammer Pruifier, and is int he same wound/save group.

 

If you instead roll for the KoF and the hammer together and fail one armor save, and afterwards say “I decide that it was the knight of flame that died” you are cheating. To understand why, let me continue the scenario.

 

No, you're not.

 

The squad, now consisting of 3 swords and a hammer, is assaulted by a Dreadnought. The Purifiers try to use hammer hand but suffer perils of the warp. Who dies? Would you pick the hammer or one of the swords? This is one of the reasons you cannot roll the dice first and later decide if the the KoF lives or dies.

 

The Keeper, if he's alive. Otherwise, as per BoP, it's *random*. You *don't* choose who takes the perils.

 

I think it is unfair to DHeese to change his original post to a rules discussion and will say no more on the matter here. Feel free to PM me or start a new post if you want to continue the discussion.

 

OK, if you wish any additional information on this, start a OR thread. <_<

 

All the information I've posted is correct, RAW, and *might* help you decide how you want to arm your Keeper. Which might help you decide if you want a Warding Stave on him.

 

Besides, the OP has been answered. Warding Staves aren't really 'viable' at all, only in a very limited amount of situations, already covered in the thread.

[nurglez]

If he is a seperate wound group, then no you don't. And could put a single bolter on him while everyone else gets plasma'd.

 

Doesn't he have a seperate profile from the other purifiers in the grey knight codex?

[Darkmagi]

Yea the Knight of Flame is just like a tactical sergeant, besides even if gl's version was correct a simple 5 point upgrade changes it; mc his halberd then it is a diff group. But as the KOF is directly referenced by the Brotherhood of Psykers rule as different from the other members of the squad he falls in a different category as his rules are different

[Gentlemanloser]

Doesn't he have a seperate profile from the other purifiers in the grey knight codex?

 

He has a seperate profile. It's used to determin what upgrades he can/can't purchase.

 

In game, he's absolutley identicle to every other Purifier, wargear aside. He has the same special rules and the same stats as a 'regular' Purifier.

 

If he has the same wargear, he's in the same wound/save group as other Pruifiers, for reasons I've posted a couple of times in this thread. :)

 

But as the KOF is directly referenced by the Brotherhood of Psykers rule as different from the other members of the squad he falls in a different category as his rules are different

 

This isn't correct. :teehee: The save groups don't care about how special rules work, only that every mini in the unit has the same special rule or not.

 

Let's put it this way. If the keeper dies and you're left with 4 identicle Halberd weilding Purifiers, are they all in the sme wound/save group?

 

The answer is yes. They have the same stats, rules and wargear.

 

But, one of those (chosen at random s per the special rule) sufers perils. So if the *outcome* of BoP is tken into account for wound groups, that random mini would have to be in a wound group of his own.

 

Obvisouly this isn't the way to play it.

 

The *only* way to play it is as per the RAW. If you have the same special rules (no matter *how* they work) you're in the same wound group. Period.

[Stormshadow]

Edited

[Murcielago]

Ok Gentlemanloser...Im really starting to think your cheesy, or maybe just wrong.

 

Lemme say it like this then: You have a purifier and the flame knight left in the squad (so its a squad of 2) and are then shot by 2+ plasmas, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ALLOCATE A WOUND ON HIM RIGHT?!?

 

Or are you going to come up with a way of him dodging that?

[the jeske]

that depands , if there are also 2 wounds from normal bolters you can put the 2 bolters on one dude and the 3 plasma on the other .same thing as power weapon wound stacking from same I models . one of the 2 reasone zerkers never use power weapons because all the power weapon wounds end up on the same guy [unlike when a different I fist strikes and kills 2 different ones].

[Gentlemanloser]

If this is because you cannot comprehend that the KoF or justiciar is a unique individual you can learn more about this by reading the codex, study the effects of perils of the warp for example.

 

I'd ask you to stop with the personal attacks. I know the rules quite well.

 

I'd like someone to point out where the KoF breaks one of the three conditions that make him part of the standard save/wound allocation group.

 

Show where he has;

 

Different Statistics to other Purifiers

Different Wargear/Weapon to other Purifiers (this on is a wash, we're assuming he doesn't...)

Different Special Rules to other Purifiers.

 

If you *can't*, then RAW, he's identicle in gaming term to other Purifiers.

 

Lemme say it like this then: You have a purifier and the flame knight left in the squad (so its a squad of 2) and are then shot by 2+ plasmas, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ALLOCATE A WOUND ON HIM RIGHT?!?

 

Or are you going to come up with a way of him dodging that?

 

I think you misunderstand the point of debate.

 

First, you haven't given enough infomration. Does the KoF have the same weapons/Wargear as the lone remaining Purifier?

 

If so;

 

There is a single Save/Wound allocation group in that unit. It suffers to unsaved wounds, both die. It suffers one unsaved wound, you can choose which of the two you want to remove.

 

If not;

 

The unit consists of two distinct Save/Wound Allocation groups. If the unit *only* suffers two plasma hits, you would have to assign one to each group. If it suffers more, you can stack them however you want amoung those two groups, following the usual rules.

 

If you're unsure how wound allocation works, post some more information on your example and I'll go through it.

 

you can ask experienced players in your gaming community to show you.

 

Once agian, veiled ad homenien is unecessary, and unwanted. But you're not to know I've been playing 40K since RT.

 

But hey, 4K posts to your 99 *might* be some sort of indication?

[number6]

I am THIS CLOSE to closing this topic. The bad attitudes and sniping WILL end. Here. And NOW.

 

A couple of you are drifting close to official warning territory. You have been warned.

[Valerian]

I'm with Gentlemenloser on this one. Other than having a different name/title, the Knight of Flame is exactly the same in game terms as every other Purifier. He only becomes different when you make him different with upgrades/options, and even then you can choose to upgrade other Purifiers in the same way, which keeps them in the same wound allocation group.

 

It's the same for the Justicar of a GKT squad; he is in no way different than any of his squad-mates, until you make him different with options. For other Justicars, it doesn't carry over, as they do have different stat-lines, even if equipment and rules remain otherwise identical.

 

If your gaming group interprets this particular nuance of the 40k rules such that having a different name/title is enough to count as a "difference in gaming terms", then so be it. I, however, agree that with GL that a more appropriate interpretation would require a difference in either: rules, equipment, or characteristics to warrant being separated into distinct wound allocation groups.

 

For the Purifier squad we already agree that characteristics are the same, we've assumed for the sake of this discussion that the equipment remains the same. We should also agree that the special rules of each model is the same (all have Brotherhood of Psykers); it is only the application of that rule that differs, when certain triggers are met in gameplay. Although the effect of BoP on the KotF might differ from the effect on others in the squad, all are still bound by the exact same special rules.

 

This, at least, is the position that GL is coming from. It has nothing to do with cheating, or trying to get an advantage. It is simply the way he, and others, interpret the appropriate application of determining wound allocation grouping for a homogenous unit.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

N6, I hope that was more on target for how one should behave on this forum.

[the jeske]

Other than having a different name/title, the Knight of Flame is exactly the same in game terms as every other Purifier.

that is like saying that a plasma gun and a melta gun are the same [so are models carrying it] because both have only different names.

 

A model is different if A it has different arment . B it has a sperate slot in the army list . If the list says the unit consists of a sgt and 4 marines and there are no stats for the sgt then he is not separate . If it says 4 marines and a sgt and there are stats for the marines and separate ones listed for the sgt then he is a different model . that is why in some codex sgt company champions etc cant be give some of the upgrades .

[Stormshadow]

If this is because you cannot comprehend that the KoF or justiciar is a unique individual you can learn more about this by reading the codex, study the effects of perils of the warp for example.

 

I'd ask you to stop with the personal attacks. I know the rules quite well.

 

 

This was absolutely not meant as any kind of attack, personal or otherwise. I was just trying to enlighten a fellow 40k player and meant this as a friendly tip. Tone, sarcasm, or lack there of, is hard to convey in a forum. My intentions mean nothing however, If you were hurt by this remark you have my deepest and most sincere apology.

[Stormshadow]

you can ask experienced players in your gaming community to show you.

 

Once agian, veiled ad homenien is unecessary, and unwanted. But you're not to know I've been playing 40K since RT.

 

But hey, 4K posts to your 99 *might* be some sort of indication?

 

Once again I apologies. Your post count is very impressive and you must indeed be a skilled and talented player if you have played since RT, I am sure you could show me a thing or two about the assault phase. I remember when I asked some of the old guys at the gaming club to show me some of their tricks in the assault phase and it was truly eye opening. This is why I made this suggestion to you, which I now regret and I am so sorry that you were hurt by this, I truly meant no offence.

[Stormshadow]

I am THIS CLOSE to closing this topic.

 

Please do not close this topic, it would be very unfair to DHeese. Instead I will remove my comments, I do not want them to be here if they are conveyed as being in “bad attitude” and “sniping”

[Gentlemanloser]

Hey no need to edit your posts! I'm not offended, I'm quite thick skinned. ;) It's just not the direction any of us would want the thread to go in.

 

Totally agree about tone, I usually use a liberal amount of smilies becuase of this. :D

 

As for RT, nah, not only was I young and a bad player back then (Wiping out an entire Ork army with some Toxi Gas Grenades was FUN!!! Doesn't matter my mate was utterly dejected!) but it was a vastly different game to 40K of today.

 

And to be honest, my post count mean little. I think I should also apologise for that comment, a little too barbed. Sorry. ;) Joining date might have been a better comment. I missed out 3rd edition entirely, and only vaguely remember 2nd. But I played a DH hunter army through 4th, and have been playing the Grey Knights since the odex release.

 

I just have little time these days for discussions that follow logical fallacies like ad homenien, and don't stick to resolving the topic at hand.

 

that is like saying that a plasma gun and a melta gun are the same [so are models carrying it] because both have only different names.

 

Come on Jeske. A PGun and MGun have different stats, not just names. As per the RAW, name isn't a part of a units 'profile of charcateristics', if you want quotes from the BRB please visit the OR thread) so all that's left if trying to claim that;

 

4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+ isn't the same/identicle to 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+

 

And I really don't see how anyone could argue that position.

[breng77]

I already posted a possible counter to that in the OR thread...

 

TO me it is at least not very clear RAW, RAI I believe they are to be different wound groups.

[Brother Tual]

gml is right.. the example in the rule book picks out the sergeant because he has different stats and wargear. not becuase he has a 'title'. The example highlights this point

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, but it's pointless revisting it. The Necron Codex has an item of wargear that does something specific. That in now way changes the rules for save/wound allocation groups.

 

And the BRB states quite clearly what a profile of characteristics is, the set of 9 values. Name isn't included, and as been oft mentioned, 40k is permissive.

 

If name isn't mentiond as being part of the profile of charcateristics, it isn't.

 

/shrug

[breng77]

Except that the Necron Codex references the Name on the Profile, if the Name is on the Profile it is part of the Profile. THe BrB references that there are 9 characteristics, it in no way says those characteristics are the only part of the profile.

 

If the name is not tied to the Profile tell me what unit 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+ this belongs to?

 

Space Marine? Grey Knight? Techmarine? Which profile is this?

[Gentlemanloser]

The name is obviously the identifier for the profile. it tells you which unit in the game that specific profile is attached too.

 

It's not part of the profile though as we're not told it's part of the profile.

 

it in no way says those characteristics are the only part of the profile.

 

Permissive rule set.

[breng77]

Well I see no point in continuing as we are not going to agree on this and honestly I don't care enough to keep going we have both made our points and everyone will decide for themselves how to play it.