Fluff Space

[A D-B]

The traitor legions have become like Orks. They are small and powerful, but if they were to ever unite under one banner they could conquer the galaxy. Look how relatively well the Black Crusades do. Of course they get stopped by the fluff shields, but if the Legions would put aside their differences, they would be the most potent force in the galaxy outside of the Tyranids.

 

Pretty much, though it's arguable (and, dare I guess, probable) that the 13th Black Crusade was very much this coming into existence: Chaos finally breaking free of containment, with the ability to run amok in Imperial Space.

 

Chaos is The Threat of the setting (though not just the Legions, of course, they're just the greatest external embodiment of it).

 

You don't think claiming 10,000 legionaries is a little ambitious for DIY background?

 

Hmmmmmmmyes, and no.

 

As it's always been explained to me, and as I've started to see more of in the background, the Imperium basically goes through cycles in its long, spiralling journey to eventual, inevitable destruction (past the point we'll ever see). We're at two minutes to midnight now, which is what the Dark Millennium represents, but the Imperium itself has endured a series of cataclysmic events that almost tore it apart fairly "regularly", with the Horus Heresy only being the first and most famous. Of course, in the setting, most people would never have heard of the Heresy, but whatever. The rulebook timeline lists these major events, though again, they never seem quite as catastrophic in the very brief text as the IP folks have always explained to me, so I wonder if the next edition will fix that and drive the point home a little harder. But we're talking about stuff like Vandire; the Nova Terra Interrgnum; the Beast Arises; and so on.

 

Suffice to say, with an example like yours, M2C - it kinda treads the boundary between "This is a likely event in the setting, and totally possible" and "This is unlikely, therefore it's less credible DIY background". It's just a perspective thing.

 

To me, it's fairly likely that it'll have happened a few times, under variously powerful warlords doing X, Y and Z for several months, years or decades. Even centuries, in the right part of the galaxy. There are probably entire reaches of the galaxy that have been in the grip of powerful and/or charismatic and/or genius Chaos Lords since the Heresy, and the Imperium has never realised / cared / been able to muster a reclamation force / repeatedly been repelled.

 

It's one of those things where the likelihood is dependent on the reader's own perspective of the setting. And the setting is so freaking massive, I find something like those examples pretty likely. Maybe not common, but it's likely they'd happen way, way more than the Imperium would like.

 

There's a huuuuge difference between "The Chaos Legions are fractured, and can never, ever organise outside of a Black Crusade" and "The Chaos Legions may be fractured, but individual warbands (or gatherings of warbands) can be pretty much any size, and can win some insanely impressive wars on their own."

[Piousservant]

Chaos is The Threat of the setting (though not just the Legions, of course, they're just the greatest external embodiment of it).

 

I guess that's why the Necrons have become Robot Space Victorians (... who dress like Egyptians). :confused:

 

 

Suffice to say, with an example like yours, M2C - it kinda treads the boundary between "This is a likely event in the setting, and totally possible" and "This is unlikely, therefore it's less credible DIY background". It's just a perspective thing.

 

To me, it's fairly likely that it'll have happened a few times, under variously powerful warlords doing X, Y and Z for several months, years or decades. Even centuries, in the right part of the galaxy. There are probably entire reaches of the galaxy that have been in the grip of powerful and/or charismatic and/or genius Chaos Lords since the Heresy, and the Imperium has never realised / cared / been able to muster a reclamation force / repeatedly been repelled.

 

It's one of those things where the likelihood is dependent on the reader's own perspective of the setting. And the setting is so freaking massive, I find something like those examples pretty likely. Maybe not common, but it's likely they'd happen way, way more than the Imperium would like.

 

The Sabbat Worlds (before, well and during, the crusade) would be a good example of something like this, I think? And there the big bad isn't even a traitor marine, so if human traitors can manage it, I'm sure transhuman traitors can too.

[darth_giles]

Since I've started Chaos Space Marines, I've found it a lot easier to write background than say, for my Tau, which all I ever got was "No, that's not possible." and really killed it for me. There is also an excessive amount of books and fluff for Chaos.

 

I don't really like the Primarchs-as much like their Dad, they really aren't involved with the plot anymore except anecdotally, and I outright hate some of them (though Corax, and Alpharius/Omegon I do like). I've almost had the opposite problem for developing an army theme that I had for my Tau: I have so much to choose from, and so much I can develop from that I don't know where to start.

Good fluff requires good characters. If you can't put a name and a personality to your army's leaders then you don't really need to bother writing fluff. You'll just end up with a timeline of names and deeds, but nothing to really make your army stand out. Special characters don't really work, because they really dominate the fluff and make it hard to put your own mark on it.

 

That's also why I have a standing objection to most Privateer Press games; there's no option to develop your own fluff, because your HQ has to be a special character.

 

With current Necron fluff it's more like:

1st Chaos

2nd Tyranids

3rd/4th Orks/Necrons (kinda similar threat level)

 

Necrons were kinda like Tyranids, more or less united force which wanted to eat/kill every living being. Now Necrons are some small warlords and tiny empires, not united with a single goal.

CSM are a bit like 'crons and Orks but Chaos as a whole is a bit bigger thing. Striking not only from without but also from within. Renegade IG, Dark Mechanicum, Chaos Space Marines, Daemons and every single cultist and heretic....

 

Also we're not really sure how big the Tyranids are or how many Necrons are there. Maybe a lot. Maybe not.

You sure? What I got from the 'Cron codex was that the Tyranids were number one whether the Imperials realized it or not, and Chaos was much less of a threat, but got more attention.

 

Either way, the old 'Cron fluff was horrible. They were either mindless, faceless raiders who just wanted to kill everything; or they were so C'tan-centric that Necron Lords were a points sink- as if the Monolith wasn't a big enough points sink as it was. The new fluff is actually usable, and allows the same degree of storytelling you could have with any other army, without having to draw criticism for breaking from the "established" fluff.

 

They can also use similar tactics to the Word Bearers or old Alpha Legion, thanks to the magic of Mindshackle Skarabs.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Chaos finally breaking free of containment, with the ability to run amok in Imperial Space.

 

We're at two minutes to midnight now //snip// so I wonder if the next edition will fix that and drive the point home a little harder. But we're talking about stuff like Vandire; the Nova Terra Interrgnum; the Beast Arises; and so on.

 

I'm not one of the "advance the plot" drum beaters (mainly because I hate how it confused the issue for the Battletech game), but I would like this emphasized more clearly in the next iteration. The Grey Knights novels by Ben Counter is the only place I recall this being mentioned in a significant way, with the protagonist's resources being severely limited by almost all of their manpower being sent to the Cadian Gate and vicinity. In general, there have been so many Imperial victories in the novelizations that it seems like the Imperium is in fact holding the line, when what I gather from the source material for the game is that it really isn't.

 

To me, it's fairly likely that it'll have happened a few times, under variously powerful warlords doing X, Y and Z for several months, years or decades. Even centuries, in the right part of the galaxy. There are probably entire reaches of the galaxy that have been in the grip of powerful and/or charismatic and/or genius Chaos Lords since the Heresy, and the Imperium has never realised / cared / been able to muster a reclamation force / repeatedly been repelled.

 

This is much more clear in the source material, but a lot of people seem to be actively ignoring it. Maybe it's the propaganda style of Imperial source material and the aforementioned Imperial victories in the fiction affecting player perception, but reading through both the BRB and the C:CSM there is wide room available for petty empires and pirate kingdoms, some of which, like the Iron Fortress, pretty much sit out in the open and say, "come at me, weaklings" to the Imperium, who simply can't do anything about it. I mean, it's right there for us to use in the codex, but I can't remember ever reading a DIY IT here that dared such belligerence and scale. Not even my own, sadly, which I think I should change in my third attempt at something readable. You know, in anticipation of our next codex being awesome and unstoppable...

[Kol Saresk]

The chances are that part of the Codex was overlooked because of its lack of viability as a competition Codex.

[minigun762]

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

For example, I find it difficult to justify to myself that my army is made up of more then a few hundred marines and a warship or two because it feels as if anything larger represents too great and rare of a threat to be "believeable" and so my army stays small and is limited to more of a raiding force than anything else.

 

I can't point to anything concrete to rationalize this but just an overall feeling that Chaos is either a minor raiding force and annoyance for the Imperium or its a grand crusade smashing through sectors and planets but nothing in the middle.

[ThisisJimmy]

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

I agree with this. I feel it has something to do with there being no knowledge of what the "average" size of a Chaos warband truly is. That ambiguity is both a blessing and a curse for fluff, as it allows wiggle room for anyone thinking outside the box, but it also stifles people (like us) who are just trying to make a fairly 'run of the mill' warband, but have no idea what the limits are. Having said that, I'm not too sure if providing guidelines would be a good thing or a bad thing, because it could easily take the chaos out of Chaos.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

I agree with this. I feel it has something to do with there being no knowledge of what the "average" size of a Chaos warband truly is.

 

Maybe it's a reflection of the stated 1000 (or so) limit of a Codex chapter, and a feeling that anything more than that might be grandiose even for a CSM DIYer? I just rewrote my TA to give myself a whole fleet, several recruitment worlds, and remove concrete mention of size. Because hey, Chaos. The Blood Gorgons book really influenced how I thought of a warband in a positive way, and ever since I read it I wanted to rewrite my TA to be more like them (as far as autonomy and unrepentant individualism go).

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

I used to do this constantly in the last Codex, but stopped once everyone and their cat started using special characters for battles of literally any size under the current runs (seriously, Calgar in a 1500-pt tournament?). Now I go all-in and don't bother trying to justify anything.

[minigun762]

-Max-: I think thats a larger part of it. The SM fluff supports the idea that a 1000 marines all working together at the same time is an almost undefeatable amount of force and so that does tend to put an effective upper limit on my own imagination.

 

Heck, even the capacity of SM warships hint at the approximate power level of 100 marines stating the sheer presence is enough to quell rebellions.

 

Often the arrival of a Space Marine strike cruiser is enough to quell a rebellious system. The Space Marines are quick to act if their enemies’ surrender is not immediately forthcoming.

To Cleanse the Stars BFG

 

Its not about exact numbers, but coming up with an range or yardstick that seems reasonable based on whatever your army's background or intentions are. Of course this is also bigger than just Chaos forces, you have to factor in appropriate levels of Imperial strength, how large is the PDF of an agri-world vs a hive world vs forge world, how many Imperial warships would you expect around a given planet, system, sector etc. The galaxy is too big and varied to have set numbers, but again we're only looking for ranges or approximations.

 

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

I used to do this constantly in the last Codex, but stopped once everyone and their cat started using special characters for battles of literally any size under the current runs (seriously, Calgar in a 1500-pt tournament?). Now I go all-in and don't bother trying to justify anything.

Good point and one of the major reasons I don't like to use special characters. It feels like they should only be brought out for the big or important stuff, not the minor skirmish on planet 3YU8 or whatever.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Good point and one of the major reasons I don't like to use special characters. It feels like they should only be brought out for the big or important stuff, not the minor skirmish on planet 3YU8 or whatever.

 

I'd have to agree... Something tells me that they should be wheeled out for those huge, enormous 'end-of-level' Apocalypse battles. Those Battle Report accounts in WD that feature Typhus/Huron Blackheart/Marneus Calgar in a 1,200-1,500 minor conflict feel... flat. That the rank-and-file is just there to soak up fire until the Big Boys get to throw down and manage to not quite kill each other. Ugh.

[A D-B]

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

For example, I find it difficult to justify to myself that my army is made up of more then a few hundred marines and a warship or two because it feels as if anything larger represents too great and rare of a threat to be "believeable" and so my army stays small and is limited to more of a raiding force than anything else.

 

I can't point to anything concrete to rationalize this but just an overall feeling that Chaos is either a minor raiding force and annoyance for the Imperium or its a grand crusade smashing through sectors and planets but nothing in the middle.

 

Not personally, but I can see what you mean. It feels (to me) like you're coming at it too far from the other side, though. I find 3,000-man (or more) Marine warbands just as likely (maybe not as common, but just as likely in the 10,000 year span of the Imperium) as 120-man warbands. Similarly, I find entire subsectors in thrall to massive coalitions of warbands just as likely as Chaos not showing up in that part of the galaxy beyond raids, for 7,000 years, or whatever. Sure, the bigger warbands and alliances might struggle to stay together, given personal ambition among Chaos Marines (which is largely most Chaos Marines' prime motivator; selfishness opposed to selflessness) but it's no less likely to me.

 

This is a subject with way, way, way too much black and white when it comes up. The reality is all shades of grey, with a Black Crusade at the far extreme.

[Legatus]

Does anyone else suffer from having to justify what is an appropriate scale of threat for either your personal army or Chaos in general?

 

For example, I find it difficult to justify to myself that my army is made up of more then a few hundred marines and a warship or two because it feels as if anything larger represents too great and rare of a threat to be "believeable" and so my army stays small and is limited to more of a raiding force than anything else.

I don't really get where you are coming from. You will rarely be able to field more than 50 Marines on the tabletop, so "your army" really has no reason to grow beyond that plus a few replacement units to change things up a little. If you want to think of the army you play as part of a larger warband, then around 200 Chaos Marines would be enough to take the average world. For half of the Legions you would expect some kind of cultist force that keeps the planetary defense force occupied while the Chaos Marine detachments take out the important targets.

 

When I play loyalists, I play one particular Company. They are supported by the specialist companies, of course, but even then I really never consider myself to be playing more than a single strike force in any given game I play. I mean, I could pretend that the entire Chapter is partaking in some greater conflict, of which the game I play against someone is just a tiny part. But since I will never see any of what else is going on (and since I don't have the entire Chapter worth of models anyway), I can just as well assume that it is my single strike force that is involved and taking care of things.

 

Maybe you want a bit of extra context for a Chaos force, since here you will not play a detachment of a standard 1,000 man Chapter or a Company. But what is wrong with a marauding Night Lords warband of 200-300 warriors? If it is a Word Bearers/Alpha Legion/Black Legion/Iron Warriors warband, you can have them tow around a cultist horde of several thousand. Well you could do that with the other Legion warbands too.

[Corsair]

I recently has my own little epiphany regarding my idea for a traitor warband and the scale of what I wanted to do versus what seems to be the common perception of a hundred dudes in spiky armour hitching a ride on a decrepit pile of crap ship.

 

 

So in the end I just decided that I'd carve out my own little section of the galaxy, make these guys a major threat, and be done with it.

 

 

Now I have Taskforce Cerberus, which is an amalgamated fleet and warband led by a significant number of Alpha Legionaires, their smaller group of Night Lord "allies", an attached retinue of Red Corsairs who have an unknown stake in the operation, and disparate remnants of a bunch of lesser warbands (typically renegades) recruited by the Alpha Legion through a combination of "glory for Chaos" promises and the threat of annihilation.

 

 

They hit powerful Imperial worlds, xenos-controlled systems, and even other Chaos warbands, using the renegades as a distraction while the AL go about their secret business and the NL get to do their thing as a part of whatever secret deal their leader has with the leader of the warband.

 

 

I see them as being about 2000 marines strong, plus human troops, plus their reasonably powerful armada. It might be a bit grandiose, but I don't care. Tiny raiding warbands are fun (hello Talos!), but sometimes you just want to BE the big bad threat for a change.

 

 

Plus mixing multiple factions makes for fun storytelling opportunities and will help my enjoyment if I ever build them as an army.

[ThisisJimmy]

I do understand what people are saying in regards to it being fair enough that Chaos can control entire planetary systems, that a warband can consist of thousands of traitor Marines. I completely agree with that, and like to see it happen. I think the reason I personally shy away from doing that because of what's in the "black and white". We are constantly reminded about just how dangerous a single Company of SM are, the fact they can quell entire worlds into subservience just by their mere presence. Thus if 100 Marines can do that (and I'm assuming they could take control of the world), what could 200? What could an entire Chapter do? If your warband is, say, 300 is it still reasonable for them to still be raiders, or should they be ruling worlds or systems? The obvious answer is that of course they could. But where would this system be located? Surely close enough to the Imperium so that they can cause damage against the old foe, but how do you explain a lack (or lack of success) with the punitive expeditions from the Imperium? I personally feel it is a huge stretch of the imagination that the Imperium would ignore such a system, or they would simply retreat if defeated. This isn't the Tau during the Taros campaign (IA:3), you could imagine loyalist SM chapters clamouring at the opportunity to erase a perceived stain on their honour, and for them to keep coming and not stopping.

 

In summary, I don't disagree with Chaos ruling entire star systems, I just feel that it requires significantly more justification, especially when there aren't any real guidelines as to what makes up an average warband. We know that Abaddon and Huron control the 2 largest warbands, but we don't even get sizes on them. Sorry about the wall of text.

[Warsmith Aznable]

should they be ruling worlds or systems? The obvious answer is that of course they could. But where would this system be located? Surely close enough to the Imperium so that they can cause damage against the old foe, but how do you explain a lack (or lack of success) with the punitive expeditions from the Imperium?

 

Where? The galaxy in question is the galaxy that we live in currently. There are an estimated 100 billion to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way, and recent science is telling us that among these there are 'billions' of potentially habitable stars. The bleeding thing is over 100,000 light years wide. It's an

.

 

The Imperium can't be everywhere at once, no matter how they life to draw their lines on the map. Look at the species distributions in the BRB. There aren't just Chaos Marines joy riding through Imperial space, but Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyranids, all littering the galaxy with their numerous kingdoms and empires, and, according to other sources, dozens of lesser species, as well as corrupt and selfish Imperial governors, antagonistic factions from within engaging in clandestine personal warfare, and the astoundingly inefficient and slow bureaucracy of the Imperium. Sure, when it gets moving it's unstoppable, but there just isn't enough to be everywhere. This is why places like Ultramar are a big deal, they are the shining beacons of hope in a dark and decaying galaxy, and even Ultramar was very nearly eaten by giant space bugs. The Imperium is putting out a house fire with a garden hose, and it's all about to come down around their ears. That's the bit of fluff we're discussing for the purpose of CSM warband DIY. What can we get away with while we're being creative (pretending)? And I'm coming around to the idea that it's rather a lot.

[Yogi]

The Imperium wins every war in the end. That is the problem with fluff right now.

 

Sabbat Worlds is one of the coolest things in the fluff, but even that, the feeling is the Imperium will eventually after spending millions or more lives, retake it.

 

2minutes to midnight dosen't matter, Cain is alive in the next millenium, The world hasn't collapsed.

 

Cadia fell, but Imperials have orbital supremacy. They will retake it eventually.

 

Armageddon is constant war and the orks are like planet herpes always flaring up, but eventually the orks will be crushed and live in the jungle as ferals.

 

The Imperium never loses. The lore implies it can last forever, the occasions it does lose, the invaders are still driven away or killed.

 

All those events like Vandire are civil, which is why no one cares about them. There is no codex successionist fools. There is a codex chaos. External be it chaos or xenos are the ones that interest players. (I have never seen a gorge Vandire army)

 

What I'm trying to say is that the 2minutes to midnight thing does not come across except when the fluff outright states it, or someone tells me (and this rarely happens). The fluff does not reflect this at all. This reflects the impression of chaos itself as hellish petty raiders with a burning hatred to do what they cannot ever achieve.

 

So yeah maybe I'm a fool, but the Imperium is here to stay, there is no real sense of their impending doom, just some setbacks that can eventually be won back. Thats the impression I'm left with.

 

TLDR; Imperium is the house, xenos and chaos are gamblers, who occasionally win big, but if they keep playing they lose in the end.

[ThisisJimmy]

Where? The galaxy in question is the galaxy that we live in currently. There are an estimated 100 billion to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way, and recent science is telling us that among these there are 'billions' of potentially habitable stars. The bleeding thing is over 100,000 light years wide. It's an

.

 

The Imperium can't be everywhere at once, no matter how they life to draw their lines on the map. Look at the species distributions in the BRB. There aren't just Chaos Marines joy riding through Imperial space, but Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyranids, all littering the galaxy with their numerous kingdoms and empires, and, according to other sources, dozens of lesser species, as well as corrupt and selfish Imperial governors, antagonistic factions from within engaging in clandestine personal warfare, and the astoundingly inefficient and slow bureaucracy of the Imperium. Sure, when it gets moving it's unstoppable, but there just isn't enough to be everywhere. This is why places like Ultramar are a big deal, they are the shining beacons of hope in a dark and decaying galaxy, and even Ultramar was very nearly eaten by giant space bugs. The Imperium is putting out a house fire with a garden hose, and it's all about to come down around their ears. That's the bit of fluff we're discussing for the purpose of CSM warband DIY. What can we get away with while we're being creative (pretending)? And I'm coming around to the idea that it's rather a lot.

 

I'm not doubting the size of the galaxy, I am well aware of how large it is. My point, and I may not have made it clear, lies with the fact that traitor Marines are despised like no other enemy, because they are traitors. In my mind, preventing them from controlling anything within Imperial space would be a top priority. Loyalist Marines see them as a stain on their honour, and as such would move heaven and earth to destroy them, and remove the stain. Thus we come to the quandary of how many Marines does it take to pacify and control a system? Because there are (give or take) a million loyalist Marines, all of whom would love nothing more than to wipe out any traitor Marines bold enough to establish their own empire. And not only the Space Marines, but Imperial Guard and the Inquisition, of whom one entire branch is dedicated to wiping out Chaos.

 

I want to make this clear, as I feel my original point (which actually echoed minigun762's) has become muddied, was that I am in no way arguing against the idea of Chaos controlling worlds outside The Eye (or the Maelstrom). I just feel that some of the ambiguity surrounding warband creation hampers potential fluff creators as much as it helps. I feel that the fact that there is no real precedent set for Chaos empires in real space, requires more justification than a loyalist counterpart, particularly relating to why they haven't been destroyed yet.

[Legatus]

TLDR; Imperium is the house, xenos and chaos are gamblers, who occasionally win big, but if they keep playing they lose in the end.

While I agree that the Imperium is not really about to be destroyed, I disagree that it will "eventually win". They will never finally have defeated Chaos, nor will they ever have defeated the Orks. It is a never ending struggle. Which is why the Imperial regime is so harsh, and why the Imperium generally is not a nice place to live. It is a constant state of threat or war.

[Chengar Qordath]

I'm not doubting the size of the galaxy, I am well aware of how large it is. My point, and I may not have made it clear, lies with the fact that traitor Marines are despised like no other enemy, because they are traitors. In my mind, preventing them from controlling anything within Imperial space would be a top priority. Loyalist Marines see them as a stain on their honour, and as such would move heaven and earth to destroy them, and remove the stain. Thus we come to the quandary of how many Marines does it take to pacify and control a system? Because there are (give or take) a million loyalist Marines, all of whom would love nothing more than to wipe out any traitor Marines bold enough to establish their own empire. And not only the Space Marines, but Imperial Guard and the Inquisition, of whom one entire branch is dedicated to wiping out Chaos.

 

I want to make this clear, as I feel my original point (which actually echoed minigun762's) has become muddied, was that I am in no way arguing against the idea of Chaos controlling worlds outside The Eye (or the Maelstrom). I just feel that some of the ambiguity surrounding warband creation hampers potential fluff creators as much as it helps. I feel that the fact that there is no real precedent set for Chaos empires in real space, requires more justification than a loyalist counterpart, particularly relating to why they haven't been destroyed yet.

The Imperium might have a huge military, but it also has an equally massive number of military commitments, and the distances involved/nature of Warp travel makes shifting forces from one theater to another problematic on a good day. 99% of the Imperium's military capacity is going to be in some other sector, dealing with that sector's problems. There are plenty of places where the Imperium needs every single resource it has just to hold the line, and launching planetary invasions just isn't an option.

 

It is worth noting that, while fluff has the Imperium winning pretty often, they're almost always winning while fighting on the defensive. Even the examples of major Imperial offensives, like the Sabbat Worlds campaign, are often just a matter of taking back territory that had previously been overrun.

[Kol Saresk]

We also have to remember how many Imperial worlds are just "forgotten" backwaters. There are plenty of examples of either self-sustained worlds or worlds depleted of resources that are generally left alone by the Imperium. Anything could happen to them and unless someone cried for help, the Imperium wouldn't know until it did some routine Administratum/Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition inspection. There is plenty of room for a world to be controlled by Chaos and the Imperium do nothing about it because the Imperium didn't know about it. And an intelligent warleader would fortify his target in the meantime. So when the Imperium does find out, they can defend themselves. But intelligence seems to be something Chaos lacks except when it comes to beating-but-ultimately-losing-to the Imperium.

[ThisisJimmy]

If it a backwater, drained of resources, why would a warlord want it? Most of the population would have been taken away to be used on other worlds, so there wouldn't be much of a local slave base. And I'm thinking that a more populous target would be a higher priority for the Imperium. And if "99%" of their military is tied up, where did all this extra manpower come from during the 13th Black Crusade. This implies to me that there are extra resources, especially for a major Chaos incursion (and a warlord conquering worlds would have to be considered that. Besides, if they are always having to win back worlds, would that not necessitate a full planetary invasion? I mean how else would they win back a world. And this isn't some outskirt world seceding, this is a major strike by the Imperiums most hated foe. Surely that would warrant a bit of priority? And I'm sure the Adeptus Terra would eventually notice the sudden cessation of tithes being paid.

 

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure why I'm arguing against this. I love the idea, I don't want Chaos to simply be a bunch of pirates, and good for nothing else outside a Black Crusade. I guess it's just something I haven't been able to wrap my head around.

[minigun762]

This is a subject with way, way, way too much black and white when it comes up. The reality is all shades of grey, with a Black Crusade at the far extreme.

 

That is what I'm hoping for. A little (or maybe a lot) of fleshing out of the stuff in the middle, not just the extremes. There is so much potential out there, so I'm hoping that it gets filled in more.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Backwaters aren't necessarily void of resources though, they can be just as vital without being something already written about on a grand stage.

 

Lately I've been reading more and more here in the Chaos boards because I think I've finally come up with my "next great project" besides painting my mini's and a few more select purchases for my Grey Knights/Inquisition army to really make it gel with the new rules (and some select Sisters stuff of course). It also fit in with my own personal project of having one setting and tying all my model collection army ideas to that location and working on my own fluff. One day I'll even make a table with the modular battle boards (which will be interesting because I've invented a swamp world setting for neat modeling of docks, water, buildings, etc.). The fluff creation and such is something I'm still working on, thus peeking in on this thread, but anyway...

 

I agree that Chaos fluff and development has definitely gotten the short end of the stick. When I look at the themes of 40K and go back a few generations of rules (I still subscribe to the Illuminati/Star Child fluff and the ultimate battle being between man and himself and he wins by quitting trying to control everything and letting nature take it's course) it seems like the game is becoming less philosophical in fluff or thought and more... game. Less Science Fiction in that it no longer poses a situation and question and encourages individual thought and analysis and more of an action movie where we play with guns in a scenario.

 

Chaos should be the threat that the Grey Knights are needed against. All those weapons, abilities, special rules.. yeah, they should be needed against Chaos (in all it's incarnations, Space Marines, mortals, daemons, traitors, etc). You guys have gotten the short end of the stick too much. People should have a little tremor of fear when they see a Chaos army thrown down and know that the battle will be hard fought, tooth and nail.

 

Anyway... fluffwise, it seems like there is an opening for individual creation and novelization that isn't being utilized. As an example, my own fluff has created a sector of a handful of planets in the Illsa system near the Sagitarrius Arm of the Segmentum Ultima past the Eastern fringe, the main being Illsa II. Rumors point to increase in productivity, trafficking with Dark Mechanicum, Xenos tech, etc. Members of the Ecclesiarchy worry due to the rising popularity of one particular preacher and subversive actions... the whole thing is actually a rebellion sewn by the Tau Empire. However an Inquisitor or two sent to investigate actually also uncover subversive action by the Alpha Legion enchancing the Tau's rebellion which puts the entire system and perhaps sub-sector into war. Space Marines and Imperial guard are brought in to put down the Tau rebellion (with human gue'vesa elements), only some of the Space Marines that show up are actually Alpha Legion that most people don't recognize (knowing just that a Space Marine is a Space Marine) and now instead of a two way battle it's a three way battle, Chaos forces begin rising on the planet, and I've been considering throwing in some Eldar Corsairs on general principle (that and I've an idea to build an army of them based on my wife's favorite color(s) and the fact she's a chief advisor in all things elvish for D&D gaming that I DM, but anyway...).

 

Chaos should exist in this middle ground. Subversion of planets creates pockets of influence. These pockets create sometimes an entire system or subsector that becomes under Chaos influence, which can create armies or fleets that can conquer more territory. Perhaps raiders discover what's going on and join forces, creating something that is easily Chapter strength or several-Chapters strong. We know Chapters can have influence over multiple planets and systems, and frequently operate at less than full capacity. Several hundred Marines can do a lot, and that's without daemons, mortals, subverted PDF troopers, etc. I think people get sucked into traps of trying to make everything bigger, better, more awesome sounding. Why write about the fall of a system or sub-sector when you can make a massive crusade destroying hundreds of worlds!!

 

For years it seems like everything was trying to build off of the last "great work" and trying to make something more epic, more awesome, more cool. I would think that you can actually create the same level of "we're all gonna die" by focusing in on individuals and telling as much from their own viewpoint instead of the large scale. From the perspective of the Imperium one or two worlds falling isn't that big of a deal... but what about from the perspective of the people living on those worlds? Yes, having a Chaos Lord who has taken a world or two and is working on worlds three and four seems like a small fry next to Abaddon.. but does that mean their story isn't worth telling now? Maybe it's a result of me liking the Inquisition and the focus on the battle for the Emperor's Soul and the personal level instead of just conquer all the worlds that has me looking at it this way, but it feels like there's a void between a small band of perhaps fifty Marines and a nonstop conquering Legion that needs more examples in fiction so people will begin to realize the possibilities.

 

I also just realized that I think I rambled the whole time and might not have made a point, so I suppose this will be my conclusion because I'm tired of thinking :)

[The Colossus]

my own fluff has created a sector of a handful of planets in the Illsa system near the Sagitarrius Arm of the Segmentum Ultima past the Eastern fringe, the main being Illsa II. Rumors point to increase in productivity, trafficking with Dark Mechanicum, Xenos tech, etc. Members of the Ecclesiarchy worry due to the rising popularity of one particular preacher and subversive actions... the whole thing is actually a rebellion sewn by the Tau Empire. However an Inquisitor or two sent to investigate actually also uncover subversive action by the Alpha Legion enchancing the Tau's rebellion which puts the entire system and perhaps sub-sector into war. Space Marines and Imperial guard are brought in to put down the Tau rebellion (with human gue'vesa elements), only some of the Space Marines that show up are actually Alpha Legion that most people don't recognize (knowing just that a Space Marine is a Space Marine) and now instead of a two way battle it's a three way battle, Chaos forces begin rising on the planet, and I've been considering throwing in some Eldar Corsairs on general principle (that and I've an idea to build an army of them based on my wife's favorite color(s) and the fact she's a chief advisor in all things elvish for D&D gaming that I DM, but anyway...).

 

This is a really cool background. You've got scope for a whole bunch of engagement sizes, but most interestingly, a real reason why they're all fighting. All too often I see "well, my Orks are bashing dese krimson fist oomies becuz da background sez so", or "my Ultramarines are fighting these Blood Angels because they want to capture some of their nice artificier made banner objectives". You've given a story to a whole setting, and it feels much more submersive as a result. I read your fluff and found myself imagining the protagonists, and their desires, and what they'd gain from this, in terms of the fluff, not a "cool armies, bro, who won?" type approach.

 

Meh, I added to your rambling... :)