The whole long fang/razorback stuff

[nurglez]

My paladin wing army loves fighting wolves that bring massed missiles :P

But yes, long fangs with missiles are the most cost effective choice that is able to handle everything, apart from armour 14 vehicles and terminators.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

If Im running my mechanized lists Ill always include a pack of LFs- and usually they will have the only razorback in the entire army. If its DPing then its more take it or leave it depending on my needs- but they often dont show up tell 2k or so.

 

I rarely field a second pack- I just dont need it usually. Though that maybe changing.

 

What do you think about a configuration to this effect:

 

2xMM, 3xML in a drop pod.

 

I would pod this unit down alongside a Grey Hunters unit in an opponents backfield to attempt to establish local superiority in the enemies own backfield while only having a minor dropoff in ranged ability.

 

Alternatively you could take two lascannon and three rocket launchers and sit them 48 inches from the enemy and shoot from the first turn.

 

Drop Pods are for units that can engage the enemy the moment they hit the ground. Without Logan that's not Long Fangs, and with Logan I'd rather run more terminators.

[the jeske]

They have a place in mine as well. Especially when they are on bikes! they work wonderfully in conjunction with pods, giving the Grey Hunters support! throw a wolf priest in there and then you have a super awesome unit!

yes let us buy a biker BC unit , waste an HQ slot on a wolf priest [and the points] and get the same effect you would get If you took GH and a landspeeder . only those are 2 units , cant be shot at the same time [as a priest and bikers are] .

You've guessed incorrectly. I am almost 50 years old man. I have stomped my fair share when I was younger. No need now. I am a bit older and I think more mature.

I like how west makes people odd. A world where playing to lose is seen as the mature thing to do. mind blown .

Do you also let play sports and other games like that too and do you do buissness the same way ?

 

 

I disagree with this statement. Bloodclaws have their place in our army and can be used very effectively, especially as large packs or as a supporting charge unit.

so you have to pay more points and upgrade them with HQs and then they are "effective" . you can take 10 GH with a power weapon a fist WG 2 melta totem and mark , with the same wolf priest and in the same crusader . and behold the unit works better. but maybe the BC one is significantly cheaper ??? nope . maybe it kills more . +2to hit totem re-rolling all 1s says no? So how is the BC unit better ? that it has 4 more bodies ? for more points .

[Khine]

I disagree with this statement. Bloodclaws have their place in our army and can be used very effectively, especially as large packs or as a supporting charge unit.

so you have to pay more points and upgrade them with HQs and then they are "effective" . you can take 10 GH with a power weapon a fist WG 2 melta totem and mark , with the same wolf priest and in the same crusader . and behold the unit works better. but maybe the BC one is significantly cheaper ??? nope . maybe it kills more . +2to hit totem re-rolling all 1s says no? So how is the BC unit better ? that it has 4 more bodies ? for more points .

 

Did i mention the use of land raiders or HQs? no i did not. Did i use the word "better" at all ? no i did not. All i said is "can be used very effectively" because they can be if used correctly. I agree that sometimes they can be a point sink if you go overboard with them. However, that wasn't what i was talking about at all.

 

Example: Your opponent gets your GHs squad locked in combat, they are going to be stuck there for a while, if they end up surviving. You send a pack of Bloodclaws to charge in and help clean out the enemy.

 

You don't tool them up with power weapons, you still give them a WG and if your feeling extra generous you put your Wolfpriest in with them if your going for the rhino size squad or if you really feel like going for the land raider.

5 BCs + a WG with a frost blade = 20 normal attacks hitting/wounding on 4s + 4 power weapon hitting on 4s and wounding on 3s on the charge against most other marines for 113 pts is an amazing small counter charging unit.

 

You've guessed incorrectly. I am almost 50 years old man. I have stomped my fair share when I was younger. No need now. I am a bit older and I think more mature.

I like how west makes people odd. A world where playing to lose is seen as the mature thing to do. mind blown .

Do you also let play sports and other games like that too and do you do buissness the same way ?

 

O.o seriously, your going to attack how he personally enjoys playing his "game" and then some how manage to jump to the conclusion that is how he runs his business or plays sports? You seem to forget that this is still just a game. All he said was he puts more emphasis on having fun than winning. That doesn't mean that he doesn't enjoy a win.

 

It's alright to have your own opinion on how you enjoy having fun in a game but you have no right to insult his style of playing or how he does other things in his life. Keep these kinds of insulting comments to yourself.

[Grey Mage]

If Im running my mechanized lists Ill always include a pack of LFs- and usually they will have the only razorback in the entire army. If its DPing then its more take it or leave it depending on my needs- but they often dont show up tell 2k or so.

 

I rarely field a second pack- I just dont need it usually. Though that maybe changing.

 

What do you think about a configuration to this effect:

 

2xMM, 3xML in a drop pod.

 

I would pod this unit down alongside a Grey Hunters unit in an opponents backfield to attempt to establish local superiority in the enemies own backfield while only having a minor dropoff in ranged ability.

 

Alternatively you could take two lascannon and three rocket launchers and sit them 48 inches from the enemy and shoot from the first turn.

 

Drop Pods are for units that can engage the enemy the moment they hit the ground. Without Logan that's not Long Fangs, and with Logan I'd rather run more terminators.

Id rather bring more missile launchers or Lascannons simply because in a DP army long range weapons are at a premium. You can also deploy them normally and then use your DP to give the rest of your squads a bit more flex on if they come in first turn or not.

 

I like how west makes people odd. A world where playing to lose is seen as the mature thing to do. mind blown .

Do you also let play sports and other games like that too and do you do buissness the same way ?

You see some of us enjoy a challenge- wich means handicapping ourselves because overcoming something the hard way allows us to test out our own skills rather than relying on the power of our tools.

[Russ Brother 92]

You've guessed incorrectly. I am almost 50 years old man. I have stomped my fair share when I was younger. No need now. I am a bit older and I think more mature.

I like how west makes people odd. A world where playing to lose is seen as the mature thing to do. mind blown .

Do you also let play sports and other games like that too and do you do buissness the same way ?

 

O.o seriously, your going to attack how he personally enjoys playing his "game" and then some how manage to jump to the conclusion that is how he runs his business or plays sports? You seem to forget that this is still just a game. All he said was he puts more emphasis on having fun than winning. That doesn't mean that he doesn't enjoy a win.

 

It's alright to have your own opinion on how you enjoy having fun in a game but you have no right to insult his style of playing or how he does other things in his life. Keep these kinds of insulting comments to yourself.

 

a)how do I like stuff on this because I want a massive thumbs up to Khine here... :)@the jeske - at the end of the day, it's just a game that presumably we ALL play for the FUN of it, myself (I am young yet have been playing for half my life) like the winning, but I'd rather lose and have a great time with a coupla mates than let my ego (which we all have) control my hobby so please do keep these rather insulting comments to your side of the keyboard.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

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as for the delight of running blood claws, yes they can be a horrendous points sink (I learnt the hard way via 12+Lukas+WG+WP+LRR) and after the redeemer was immobilised the whole plan failed epicly, then again I've had great success with a meager 8+2x WG in a rhino, hop out and charge and they slaughtered a nice big 20 strong Ork mob (ard boys no less) in one round of combat (it was admittedly just about the best dice rolling I've ever had) but it shows what they can do, and I often utilise one or two 8-10 strong packs in dp's in my dp list (3x 10 GHs, 4x WG + Arjac and 6x LFs + 1 ACWG + Logan, supported by 2x 8-10 BCs) and use them to come in on 2nd or 3rd turn as they can then shoot the pistols, and more to the point charge into those already assaulting my belaguered GHs thus they have often turned a seemingly obvious loss into a victory and rout of enemy troops, often spilling over into other enemy units as they chase down what remnants are left.

[Gyson_Vore]

I have found that sometimes, if the situation is cool enough, I have more fun losing. Multi-melta at maximum Range Penetrates and causes my LRC to explode? That made my day in that game!

And besides being able to wipe out mobs, I had a full 15 man Blood Claw Pack (I think with Ulrik) charge a big Black Templar squad, and tied them down for three turns (and actually ended up winning that combat.

[DV8]

Did i mention the use of land raiders or HQs? no i did not. Did i use the word "better" at all ? no i did not. All i said is "can be used very effectively" because they can be if used correctly. I agree that sometimes they can be a point sink if you go overboard with them. However, that wasn't what i was talking about at all.

 

The problem isn't necessarily that Blood Claws are a bad unit per se, or that Grey Hunters are "better", but that Grey Hunters are, on the whole, vastly more flexible.

 

Consider:

 

Grey Hunters

• BS4 and WS4
  
• Bolters, Bolt Pistols, and Close Combat Weapons
  

 

BS4 and WS4 means your special weapons hit more often, and in close combat you will be hit less often by WS4 and hit more often against WS3. Bolters gives you the flexibility to lay down covering fire or objective hold, or to en-masse Rapid Fire after disembarking with 2-3 squads and begging whatever's left to charge your wall of Space Wolves.

 

Blood Claws

• BS3 and WS3
  
• Only Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons
  
• Headstrong
  

 

BS3 and WS3 means your special wewapons hit less often, and in close combat will be hit more often by WS4 and hit less often against WS3. Lack of any significant ranged weapon means that Blood Claws can't make as big an impact in the shooting phase, and being forced to charge when within 6" means that you absolutely want to pay points for that attached character (Wolf Guard or Independent, however since I believe flexible units always have attached Wolf Guard, I see the extra points as a negligible point).

 

Headstrong is where Blood Claws shine, receiving +2 Attacks on the charge (not when they Counter-Attack, mind you), helps to mitigate their poor WS and potentially sneak in some extra wounds, HOWEVER, that is the ONLY time Blood Claws are better than Grey Hunters*. Why? Because ultimately you pay the exact same points for either model.

 

Lets see, pay points for a model that's only good in one situation...or pay the same points for a model that's good in every situation...

 

If Blood Claws were 14 or 13 points per model, they would actually be a viable choice as a cheaper counter-attack unit. But as it is, Grey Hunters are just the better choice overall. Phil Kelly really dropped the ball with the Claw units in this book.

 

 

DV8

 

*Even then I think +2 Attacks on the charge is a marginal balancing factor. Consider (assuming 9-strong squads with Wolf Guard in Rhinos as a flexible unit and for equivalent points costs):

 

9 Grey Hunters

27 Attacks on the charge.

Against WS4 will hit with 13.5 Attacks.

Against WS3 will hit with 18 Attacks.

 

9 Blood Claws

36 Attacks on the charge.

Against WS4 will hit with 18 Attacks.

Against WS3 will hit with 18 Attacks.

 

Smaller squads of Blood Claws (in comparison to equal sized Grey Hunter squads) will land less Attacks, and because of their poor WS, will be taking more hits in return. Bigger squads of Blood Claws become unwieldy (and will either take casualties as they foot slog, or a larger investment in points for a Crusader or Redeemer transport). Are those handful of attacks in a couple situations worth the cost in flexibility of a Grey Hunter squad?

 

In fact, (in my mind) the only time Blood Claw units become viable are in a Grey Tide list, taking as many big beefy units of 15 Blood Claws as possible and ramming them down your opponents throat. But at that point you're running a one-dimensional list and slanting all your choices towards that one tactic.

[DanPesci]

[

 

You've guessed incorrectly. I am almost 50 years old man. I have stomped my fair share when I was younger. No need now. I am a bit older and I think more mature.

I like how west makes people odd. A world where playing to lose is seen as the mature thing to do. mind blown .

Do you also let play sports and other games like that too and do you do buissness the same way ?

 

O.o seriously, your going to attack how he personally enjoys playing his "game" and then some how manage to jump to the conclusion that is how he runs his business or plays sports? You seem to forget that this is still just a game. All he said was he puts more emphasis on having fun than winning. That doesn't mean that he doesn't enjoy a win.

 

It's alright to have your own opinion on how you enjoy having fun in a game but you have no right to insult his style of playing or how he does other things in his life. Keep these kinds of insulting comments to yourself.

 

applause to khine, right on the money with this mate,

 

jeske, theres a difference between 'playing to lose' and 'playing for fun' mate, no need to get personal on people for having a different opinion on how they view their wargames (note the 'games' in wargames there). No need to throw the toys out the pram cos he had a decent argument against the 'tailoring' argument you made.

 

Personally id prefer to field an entire army of bloodclaws vs a draigowing army rather than play someone whose gonna sit and criticise me for not taking a game seriously enough ^_^

[Simo429]

While there isn't always a difference between playing to win and playing for fun.

 

There is certainly an eltiism amongst some gamers who refuse to take best options just so they can brag about how they do OK with certain lists ect.

[Mar Bloodaxe]

People play they way they want to. Everyone enjoys his/her hobby differently. You win some, you lose some. What really matters, no matter what is in your list that YOU make, is that you and the person across table had a good time. Chat up strategies, list advice, etc. It's simple really. Some folks enjoy different aspects of the hobby more than others. Some have a different style to others. none are wrong, just DIFFERENT.

 

One can state opinions about army compositions and such, and still be civil and non-cynical in the commentary. We all here on this forum share one love of Space Wolves. I think we have a lot of good advice here from other players and value the input given. I know I do whether I agree or not.

[barek]

Khine: +1

[DV8]

There is certainly an eltiism amongst some gamers who refuse to take best options just so they can brag about how they do OK with certain lists ect.

 

No more than there are people who claim units X or Y are the best (and only) options to win with.

 

 

DV8

[Grey Mage]

Indeed- no matter wich end of the spectrum you are on there are people who can take it to far.

 

That being said, lets get back towards why/how/what you take as far as long fangs, MSU Razors, or why you dont.

[Karack Blackstone]

Considering the discussion thus far, I'll chime in with the following:

 

I hate that the price of Long Fangs with ML's effectively gimped the chance to make them have sensible weapons loadouts. In my upcoming tourney on Saturday I hope to be in, there's not a single LF in my list as far as HS slots go. Why? Well, for this list, I wanted a list that was fun to play, rather than competitive; I have two Plazorbacks (Las/Plas) with GH's, that normally go to my LF's in my full 4500 point list for Apoc. I can't really explain it, other than liking the fourth edition main book showing a 1500 or so SW force with four dreads and no actual LF's, thus making a really quick to respond and fire list. Not great, but as I'm not looking to win the event, I'm actually trying to see how high of a sportsmanship score I can get with this list.

 

Normally, I would love to take LF's with 3 ML, 2 LC and a Plazorback for each of two packs. If I can squeeze in my third, it's typically HB's or PC's, depending upon points totals played for that game. The thing is, for this game, I don't want to play to win, I want to play to have fun, and I hope I can do a good job of keeping that in mind when the dice start rolling.

[jmurph]

DV8- great points on GH v. BCs. Add a Wolf Standard to the GHs and the BCs are just outclassed. Not to mention special weapon options....

 

No HS choice in the codex brings firepower as cheaply as LFs. Combined with split fire, they are extremely versatile and effective. Compared to the other HS slots, they bring more shots, more options, and are generally more resilient (able to get easier cover, etc.). Vindis need a price drop due to only having 1 useful weapon, and preds are fine as AC/HB, but you don't really need that in most SW lists. Missiles are the ideal choice due to good range, high S (instakill T4, wound T6 down on 2s, can hurt any AV and very dangerous to AV 12 and down) low AP (good against MEQ who are very common), and very low cost.

 

Likewise, razors are a cheap fire support options that teams well with GHs. Note that Razors are useful to all marine armies, though.

 

Consider that 3 LF units and 4 lasplass RB squads pumps out 4 S9 AP2, 15 S8 AP3, 4-8 S7 AP2 shots plus whatever specials the GHs carry. That is a huge fire support backbone. As to cyclones, you have to take 10+ WG to near match 1 LF squad. To match 3 squads you need 35. Cyclones adding more missiles to the LF 15, though, is very nasty.

 

Paladins don't change any of this. The core is great against most armies, and 55+ pt paladins still don't like the las, plasma, and mass wound on 2s/ID. Heck, most armies double take on the blistering wall of firepower backed up by countercharging marines.

[DV8]

What you do or don't take, and what you can or can't win with, comes down to personal preference/playstyle, and how you approach the game tactically. Do you like your units to be stream-lined and driven with a purpose? I want X and Y units to take out armor, I want Z units to take out infantry; a very toolbox approach, where every unit has a clearly defined role to play (pros and cons to this). There is the other approach of flexibility and variety. I want to take X, Y and Z units, and I want them to be capable of dealing with anything I might come across; a jack of all trades approach, where every unit can do a little of everything.

 

With Space Wolves, I tend to prefer the latter; Rune Priests with Jaws (offensive) and Stormcaller (defensive), Wolf Scouts with Meltaguns and a Fist-packing Wolf Guard (anti-armor/combat), Grey Hunters with Meltaguns and Fist-packing Combi-Flamer toting Wolf Guard (anti armor/infantry/monster/shooting and combat), etc. Every unit I field has a purpose, but it also has flexibility. I could care less if I lose a unit or two because every other unit I have can plug the hole that unit might have left in my line. It makes target priority for my opponent difficult, because every unit is a threat; I saturate them with more targets than they can readily handle.

 

This does, on the surface, make my army somewhat weaker; I can't outright kill certain units, it takes a combination of units. I also pay a premium for my units, more so than a more stream-lined approach, and in some situations I'm paying for things I'm not going to use (there is a price-tag on flexibilty/versatility). I'm forced to focus far more heavily on objectives than I am on Annihilation, but that keeps the game interesting for me. I don't just move units forward and roll dice.

 

So why don't I use Long Fangs?

 

Inflexible

Long Fangs are too small for combat, they can't weather hits, with no ablative wounds and only heavy weapons, they're meant to do one thing and one thing only: shoot. If your combat units are taken out, Long Fangs can't be used to fill the gap (although as a small counter-attack unit they aren't too bad, they are still Space Wolves after all), and if your Long Fangs are knocked out, chances are your army has lost a significant portion of it's ranged firepower.

 

Vulnerable

At the end of the day, they're only Space Marines. At most 6 models at Toughness 4 with a 3+ save is not difficult to take out, and many players come prepared to knock out small back-field shooting units like Long Fangs. With no ablative wounds to soak up incoming firepower, every model lost is a heavy weapon or the ability to split fire.

 

Not maneouverable

They cannot move and shoot their heavy weapons; their effectiveness is entirely dependent on positioning. Every turn you have to spend moving into a better position is a turn of firepower you've lost.

 

Additionally, Dawn of War scenarios (1/3 of the games you can expect to play) cripple Long Fangs for the first turn (at the very least) as they must move into position. If you haven't bought them a transport, it could take two turns for them to move into position to impact the game. That inability to cripple enemy mobility by taking out their transports, or knocking out their long ranged firepower (Hydras, Manticores/Medusas, Predators, etc.) could allow your opponent to move their units into position and cost you the game.

 

It is because of Dawn of War you see Long Fang units taken in Razorback transports. The vehicle's max capacity of six is not a detriment (as Long Fangs are 6 max), and for 5 points more than a Rhino you get some extra Heavy Bolter shots.

 

Division of forces

I don't like the idea of leaving hundreds of points on the back-line while the rest of my army advances. It divides my army, and creates a clear target priority in my army: take out the transports, and then while my army advances on foot, take out my Long Fangs. By the time my army reaches their lines, my Long Fangs are probably dead. If not, they can be ignored since you can get stuck in with what's left of my army.

 

I much prefer to keep my army fluid, mobile, throwing squads in Rhinos, Drop Pod units with Cyclones, Wolf Scouts OBEL-ing, Land Speeders (Typhoons and Tornadoes) flying around. Lots of small threats that add up, nothing juicy that is "must kill", everything a threat.

 

Cost

One strength they have on their side is that Long Fangs are dirt cheap. 140 points for a 6-strong squad with 5 Missile Launchers is some of the cheapest long-ranged firepower Space Marines have access to, and the ability to Split Fire essentially makes Long Fangs a double-unit in terms of what they can kill.

 

However, that reduced cost factors in all the disadvantages of Long Fangs I've already mentioned above.

 

 

Is there a place for Long Fangs? Absolutely. The bigger the game, the more you'll find ready points to take them, and for some people who might play less aggressively or prefer the toolbox approach, Long Fangs might be right up your alley because of some of the reasons mentioned above: cheap, effective firepower, they are a huge threat straight up if they can be brought to bear from the first turn to draw fire away from other units in your army.

 

But would I say they're a must-have? Absolutely not. You can win without them. Will some games be harder? Definitely; you will find yourself wishing you had their firepower from time to time. But there will be equally as many situations where you realize that the other units you took instead of the Long Fangs were a stronger choice.

 

 

DV8