Coteaz and lots of psykers

[irwit]

Hi all

 

I've been bouncing around a few codexs, mainly marines, but I think the big issue I have is when it comes to painting a pure marine army is so repetitive that I don't think Id manage 1000pts. So Ive had a look at the GK list as you can really go to town and completely individual squads.

 

Anyway, one thing I have noticed is the psykers in the henchmen squad. Surely this cant be right, 50pts for a stregth 8 ap 2 large blast weapon. Whats the downside?

[Gentlemanloser]

Psychic Test on Ld8. Suffer a Perils and you lose the entire Squad.

[The Holy Heretic]

And bs3 isn't exactly the epitome of precision :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

That too! ;)

[irwit]

Agree with the points made but I think that is still a pretty good deal. If I was going up against that with a marine army I would definitely be throwing some weight behind taking out that threat pretty quickly. Make for an interesting game too with such unpredictability!

 

Any other killer combos from the henchman unit people use? Was looking at the Jokaeros but using tooled up adeptus mechanicus models along with some hotshot lasguns and plasmas. Thats a pretty serious firepower unit.

[adamv6]

DCAs are the ultimate CC unit, and for 15 points, they are pretty crazy. I run them with Crusaders to make the most of the 3++ inv saves from the Stormshields.

 

Using Servoskulls with the Psykers is great. In my last match my servoskull placement was divine. I managed to use them for a DS and 2 attacks with my psykers, with a scatter of a whole inch!

[irwit]

DCAs are the ultimate CC unit, and for 15 points, they are pretty crazy. I run them with Crusaders to make the most of the 3++ inv saves from the Stormshields.

 

Using Servoskulls with the Psykers is great. In my last match my servoskull placement was divine. I managed to use them for a DS and 2 attacks with my psykers, with a scatter of a whole inch!

 

Thats a cool combo with the servo skulls. Is it just techmarines that can take them?

 

DCA unit sounds good, especially put in a RB with psy ammo. 140pts well spent I think :lol:

 

Im seeing why Cortaez is so killer now :)

[Warsmith Aznable]

My buddy plays a Draigo/Coteaz list against me all the time, and he really favors the Inquisition aspect of the Grey Knights. First I have to deal with DCA and Crusaders in a Storm Raven. They fly straight at my Heavy Support, usually Obliterators, and keep me from laying down fire power. Then his psyker enclaves lob those stupid templates around at my maneuver units, which is really distracting. By the time I've got the Storm Raven and henchmen in hand, his Paladins arrive from Reserves and the real fight begins.

 

Every game becomes: can I shoot the Storm Raven down before it delivers its cargo? Will the psykers manage to hit me while I drive as fast as I can across the field? Will I have enough space to shoot at the Paladins when they arrive, enough cover to survive the Paladins' shooting, and enough men left over to either counter-assault them or make a mad dash for objectives?

 

Those stupid psyker groups, if placed correctly, can really ruin my day. I don't recall them ever failing their psychic test, but they have missed spectacularly on several occasions because of their low BS.

 

The DCA/Crusader mob I usually can't stop from wiping out my Heavy Support unless I manage to down the Storm Raven in turn 1. They eat my Oblits or Havocs alive and then I gun them down with another unit. So they stop me from effective firing for two rounds, and generally permanently remove my HS.

 

I've started including heavy weapons in my regular troops squads because of the Coteaz stuff, and that's painful points-wise. I also end up being much more careful in the route I take with my mech units. So for very few points the henchmen have a big impact on how I approach and execute the battle, and I am usually reduced to last minute objective shenanigans to claw a tie out of any game I play against him. The only time beat him handily was with a list I designed specifically to do it, using Abaddon as a deathstar in a lower points game (just to see if it would work). And even then his psykers could have complicated my day if they hadn't missed their first template shot.

[irwit]

I like the idea of strom raven, a small strike force made of misfits packed up and shipped out to do the emperors bidding.

 

Cheers for all the advice B)

[Stormshadow]

Psykers are good but it is easy to go overboard with them. I always team them with other units so I don’t lose a whole squad if they suffer the perils of the warp.

 

Jokaeros are awesome. But to get the most out of them they have to have the right companions. I find that Servitors and acolytes benefit the most from the Jokaero buffs. Everything you roll but a one will benefit them greatly, from survivability to lethalness.

 

The DCA and Crusaders are also good as already mentioned. A fully kitted Teach Marine will do wonders in this unit, but pretty much doubles the Cost for the entire squad.

 

Xenos-Inquisitors with Psyoculum are also a great force multiplier for the henchmen. Ld 10 and Stubborn is always good for a unit that is standing near the table edge. And BS 10 is of course also superb. Think about a squad of 2 Jokaero, 6 Psykers and 3 Plasma servitors with BS 10 VS psykers. Imagin what they will do to a 10 man squad of SW Terminators and a Rune preset, not to mention Tyranids, Elder Councils, Thousand sons, and entire GK armies.

 

Another fun little combo I have been playing around with is a decked out Teach Marine, 2 Crusaders and a Daemon host. This unit holds the home objective and babysits my land raiders Dreads and Chimeras. They have an amazing survivability, and can take almost any melta suicide unit that drops in to my deployment zone.

[dswanick]

Whats the downside?

An Eldar opponent with two Runes of Warding...

[The Holy Heretic]

I was wondering, why there us so little love for the humble 4Pt acolyte. Pistol/hand weapon at 4 points - you can get 4 for the price of one DCA.

 

You rarely need a Unit of all power weapons, most other armies get by with one or two. And when you 'need' them, you've got plenty of GK options to fill the need :teehee:

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase the 5 point version with a Bolter is signifcantly better. ;)

 

I even prefer the Bolter version over the SB version, unless I'm running them as a mobile footsloggin unit to accompany a OM Inq in TDA with a Psycannon.

[Chengar Qordath]

Whats the downside?

An Eldar opponent with two Runes of Warding...

Yeah, LD 8 makes them very vulnerable to any psychic defense that keys off leadership.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

Becuase the 5 point version with a Bolter is signifcantly better. ;)

 

I even prefer the Bolter version over the SB version, unless I'm running them as a mobile footsloggin unit to accompany a OM Inq in TDA with a Psycannon.

To be honest I don't see the point why everyone runs SB-Acolytes. 2 Acolytes with Bolters for 10 points are far superior than a singe SB-Acolyte for 7 pts. Especially if you're talking about squishy BS3 cannon fodder.

[Chengar Qordath]

Well, depending on your opponent, being able to shoot on the move from 24" can keep them alive for a fair bit longer. Having to go within 12" of the enemy to double tap means a pretty high chance that the unit will be dead next turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

In addition, if you're running a squad of 4/5 Warriors to accompany a TDA Psycannons OM Inquisitor, if you give them Bolters, when the unit moves, only the Inquisitor can shoot over 12" away, but with SB, the whole Squad can fire up to 24" away.

 

That being said, the Bolter versions are more killy for thier cost as 12" then the SB versions.

 

It's all about mobility, and what you want to do with them.

[Drachnon]

I think comparing 2 bolter acolytes with 1 stormbolter acolyte is not the best comparison. Better would be 5 SB acolytes vs 7 bolter acolytes which are the same amount of points. It would be two less wounds (assuming you don't free up points elsewhere to max out the squad anyway) and instead have 4 shots less within 12" but 3 shots more at 24". Personally I'd just take the SB's just because I love SB's but even without personal preference it's actually a pretty good trade off as there are many times you want to stay out of the 12" charge range and still be able to fire.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Psykers are too easily negated, when things go wrong (Perils does happen) they all blow up, and they fire a blast weapon. Blast weapons scatter, so unless you bring multiples, they're not going to work. For fun lists they aren't bad, but I would hesitate before including them in a tourney list. Eldar take them apart with their psykers, and enemy Marines (SW just negate on a 4+) can psychic hood you.

 

As others have pointed out, DCA are a blender that nothing can survive. To back them up though, I like mixing in equal parts Crusader. That way, you take the heavy hits on the Crusaders (who have a storm shield), thus keeping more DCA alive and swinging. Delivery wise, Stormravens are expensive, so you can always opt for a Chimera or even a Rhino if need be. For the truly maniacal, you can take a Redeemer in Heavy Support.

 

For shooty Henchmen, storm bolter+triple melta+2 x monkey is pretty much ideal. Packed into a Chimera, you have a unit that's not even that much more expensive than melta Veterans from IG, but packs a lot more options and firepower.

I field a single 3 x plasma servitor+2 x monkey unit in a Chimera for fire support, but remember, you only have Coteaz for stopping Mindlock, so you can't really take servitors outside of his bodyguard. To further dissuade you, remember that Mindlock affects the entire unit (yes, they worded that stupidly), and it's on a 4+.

 

Regular bolters and hotshot suffer from short-range, which is a real problem for Henchmen because they fold in close-combat. Building hybrid squads isn't a good idea either, DCA are wasted if you aren't in combat, whereas shooty Henchmen are useless in close-combat.

[*Furyou Miko]

Dari, if you're in Meltagun range, you're in "Bolters are better than Storm Bolters" range.

 

Of course, ideally you'd want them to take Bolt Pistols instead, so they can get the 2 CCW bonus when they get charged, or even do the charging themselves. Laspistols just don't quite cut it there.

 

Then again, I'd probably run mine 8x (Power Armour, Bolter), 3x (Meltagun, Storm Shield) and constantly forget they're BS awful.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dari, if you're in Meltagun range, you're in "Bolters are better than Storm Bolters" range.

 

By choice. I'm only moving in if I have to, meltaguns are a hard counter to enemy armour the lascannons can't disable easily.

If I'm fighting infantry, I have no reason to close the distance, I'm quite happy to stay at 30". As I said, I only close to meltagun range if it's a Landraider or something else annoyingly tough (AV13 walkers, battle tanks etc).

Storm bolters only cost marginally more, and as our own Knight prove, having options and reach over enemy squads (who typically are armed with rapid-fire or short-range assault weapons, if they're infantry) is pretty handy.

 

Of course, ideally you'd want them to take Bolt Pistols instead, so they can get the 2 CCW bonus when they get charged, or even do the charging themselves. Laspistols just don't quite cut it there.

 

Wut? Nobody but DCA+Crusader units belong in close-combat, all other Henchmen squads are shooty only, its what they do best. I'm not paying points to make my Guardsmen bad unit to be slightly less meh (but still extremely underwhelming) in close-combat.

 

Then again, I'd probably run mine 8x (Power Armour, Bolter), 3x (Meltagun, Storm Shield) and constantly forget they're BS awful

 

Why are you paying so many points to be worse than a Tactical squad for close to the same points? Henchmen work because they bring extremely cheap firepower, or extremely cheap power weapon death. Loading them up with power armour or storm shields imply you care if they die, you shouldn't. Bring multiple cheap squads, don't load down a couple with useless upgrades.

[*Furyou Miko]

So you're wasting 20 points on a backup plan? There's a reason no-one takes more than one Simulacrum in a sisters army. I don't know. Maybe you're happy wasting an entire squad just to keep a single lascannon active. Doesn't sit right to me. You've got all those guns, Melta is the most powerful weapon-group in the game, get in there and use them!

 

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that you can use a meltagun and then not get assaulted straight away, which is frankly ridiculous.

 

I would pay the points because I don't play Grey Knights, and therefore do give an orang-outang's fuzzy backside whether my troops live or die. If they die, they can't shoot things. I know that's not a consideration for you khorne knights, but so of us have an Imperium to protect and want to keep it that way.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So you're wasting 20 points on a backup plan? There's a reason no-one takes more than one Simulacrum in a sisters army. I don't know. Maybe you're happy wasting an entire squad just to keep a single lascannon active. Doesn't sit right to me. You've got all those guns, Melta is the most powerful weapon-group in the game, get in there and use them!

 

What 20pts?

This may amaze you, but I'm not actually in range with my meltaguns or storm bolters on Turn 1. In the early game, extra lascannon is very handy, so I'm quite happy to camp and disable some enemy transports before moving in. And when I get closer, the multi-melta or heavy flamer morph comes in handy (again, situational, but heavy flamers out of a Chimera hurts even Marines).

I'm not in a mad rush to go for the enemy's throat, Henchmen are not MeQ. I fight a lot of aggressive opponents anyway, except the two guys, one with IG, one with Eldar. Eldar dude camps with scatter lasers and fire prisms and plays the shooting war, IG guy camps with Russes and heavy weapons and tries to outlast me. Guardians make a mess of my de-meched squads if they get in range with shurikens, IG also get more deadly the closer I get.

 

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that you can use a meltagun and then not get assaulted straight away, which is frankly ridiculous.

 

Do you play 40k? Tactical vacuums rarely exist, whilst one squad opens up the can another can go to work killing the passengers spilling out. Also, assuming it is a 1v1 scenario, I'm happy to trade the squad if I have no other option, or it works favourably for me (ie stopping those Templar Terminators halfway across the board is worth trading a squad).

 

I would pay the points because I don't play Grey Knights, and therefore do give an orang-outang's fuzzy backside whether my troops live or die. If they die, they can't shoot things. I know that's not a consideration for you khorne knights, but so of us have an Imperium to protect and want to keep it that way.

 

I have some bad news for you. Henchmen are precisely as bad as Guardsmen at everything. Paying a lot of points to give them 3+ saves is silly, especially when it means nothing in close-combat (they still lose horribly and die to the Initiative roll off).

Jokaero are awesome, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Lol, Khorne Knights. We embrace all aspects of the warp, plus the Emp's fuzzy glow of 'daemons suck'. Sisters get a pale reflection of it, and it comes in handy against nano-weapons infected by the warp, but thats about it.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm just waiting for one of your Jokaero to rip an Inquisitor's arms off for calling him a monkey. >> I don't know how Jokaero work, but it sounded to me like you were buying meltaguns for your henchmen so that they could protect your laser ape while he sits at the back of the board. That's what I meant by wasting 20 points - on meltaguns that don't get into range.

 

Turn one is for getting into position. Turn 2 is for shredding everything that dares come close. Your Henchmen wouldn't get shredded by Guardians nearly so badly if they had 3+ saves. It's a strange thing, but I find myself passing a lot more 3+ saves with my Sisters than with a MEq army (Necrons, or, so very long ago, Marines).

 

As far as CC is concerned, not everyone has free power weapons everywhere. Maybe one or two in a squad, in fact. 3+ saves are a big help.

 

Not sure what you mean by a 'pale reflection' of your anti-demon aura. We lost Shield of Faith in exchange for a universal 6+ invulnerable save with the new book. I know, it annoys me too - I'd rather ignore pyskers on a 5+ than fail a handful more 6+ invuns.