reckoning Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 As the title suggests, how often do different legions wage war against one another? Im trying to write a bit of fluff for my BT Crusade, and it involves some IW contesting territory with WE. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amalricus Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 i'd say every time they meet, unless they have other priorities, or are planning actions together. there are a more than a few circumstances in witch IW ans WE would fight ( for a precious artefact, slaves, weaponry, or just about anything the IW would consider important.) Justification shouldn't be a huge problem for the WE, crossing their way is basically asking for a good beating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 There is a near constant struggle for resources, ships, slaves, tech, polished skulls etc so conflict between two Chaos units would be fairly common. If its a big element of your background, I would try and come up with a good reason for the conflict, something that feels fitting and not forced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Excellent. Thanks for the help! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongfu Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Remember the World Eaters are shattered though. So I doubt they would be in one place in any huge force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 It depends on your definition as huge. Angron led quite a few of them through the First War of Armageddon. And I believe someone mentioned that there were three different World Eater warbands at the Siege of Vraks which would still be several hundred most likely given the size of the Skulltakers. Although since I do not own the Imperial Armour Volumes, I can neither confirm nor deny this. So as a whole Legion, not unless it is the Black Legion fighting the Word Bearers since those are the only two confirmed to be cohesive Legions. But the warbands descended from the Legions do fight each other quite a bit for different reasons. There was mention of an Iron Warriors warband fight a Black Legion warband because Honsou didn't give all of the gene-seed from Hydra Cordatus to the Abaddon. I know it is mentioned in more than a few stories about Honsou following Storm of Iron. I remember in Iron Warrior, the battle gets special note because that is the one and only time that Honsou mentions where he got his daemon axe and that he took it from the Black Legion leader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Not sure about Vraks, have to check but I haven't my books with me atm. In the first wat of Armaggedon were 50,000 World Eaters IIRC. That was the story that appeared in some WD, and GW also released it as a free pdf in their site. Not sure is still online. In my opinion, you can't go wrong with warbands around the size of a chapter, and that's most likely, because in the Heresy era, when Legiones existed, each Legion was divided in Grand Companies/Chapters/Great Companies (name depending on the Legion). Chapter/Grand Company was around 10,000 marines, and Companies around 1,000 (size of a modern chapter) and makes sense that if a Legion splits, the smallest cohesive units remain together, with the chain of command more or less intact. Although the last part (not the size of Legion divisions) is a guess, fits fairly well and in logical manner. So Warbands of 1k CSM make sense, but can be bigger if the boss is tough enough, like Angron himself, Yabbadabbaddon, Khârn, Typhus... Hope it helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 My bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3036753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisisJimmy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The Sanctified are a former group of Word Bearers, who splintered post Heresy, and now worship Khorne (perhaps as a throwback to their previous Khorne worshipping fluff). And in regards to Angron and Armageddon, I think it meantions Beserkers, not necessarily World Eaters, although that may just be semantics. To the original question, warbands would be fighting all the time. Personally, I think that sub-chapter level would be best to represent the warring factions. Any larger and I think it becomes a bit unweildy, and requires a much stronger justification. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Nothing wrong with having a Deamon of Khorne unite a few Warbands to fight the Iron Warriors. Just paint em all red and remember blood for the blood god, as the Iorn warriors would say, Oil for the oil god! er, i mean Iorn within iron without! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The EC also seem like a rowdy bunch, in most their fluff it talks about raiding other Chaos marines for slaves, loot, and just plain fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The Sanctified are a former group of Word Bearers, who splintered post Heresy, and now worship Khorne (perhaps as a throwback to their previous Khorne worshipping fluff). That is exactly what I thought. But then there was this post. But would it follow the world eater theme Okay, i took the time to do the research and there is a warband in IA7 (Seige of Vraaks pt3, pg 138) called "The Sanctified" clearly depicted as armed with a bolter, and who use advanced daemoncracy to open the warp portal to Vraaks and allow the Daemonic incursion to escalate, and eventually summon The Unbound, mightiest of Khornes Daemons. They are described as "having possible ties to the Word Bearers legion" BUT who are credited as one of "Three Khorne worshipping warbands, all World Eater sub-factions: Lord Zhufors Skulltakers..the Sanctified and the Berserkers of Skallathrax". As we can see, teh Sanctified ARE astartes of the World Eaters Legion who use bolters and are so favoured by Khorne as to be able to summon his hosts.Clearly the WE have always been able to use bolters, s infered by the Sanctified being WE and therefore already lobotomized and so ALL WE and berzerkers are most likely able to use bolters. Happy hunting :) And like I said, since I don't have any Imperial Armour Volumes, I can neither confirm nor deny this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 I was thinking no more than a couple hundred on both sides. The engagement between the two would also be confined to a system. The IW raid an armory world, but then the WE raid the corresponding moon which has the largest population center in said system. Now both parties want what the other has and so the inevitable happens. My tiny crusade just happens to be stuck in the middle. Does that sound plausible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Completely plausible. However, it would not be "THE Iron Warriors" and "THE World Eaters", since the Legions as such do not really exist any more. It would be an Iron Warriors warband fighting against a World Eaters warband. A few systems away there could be an Iron Warriors and a World Eaters warband co-operating or joining forces against a common foe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 According to the background dating right back to the RoC books, the Traitor Legions and the various warbands, schisms and offshoots that derive from them are in a state of constant conflict within the fluctuating delirium of The Eye of Terror. Territory, resources and various less quantifiable concepts are fought over all the time, save in those rare instances when a semblance of stability is brought to the area by a particularly powerful overlord (such as Abaddon the Despoiler). Even in thes einstances, their influence isn't so profound or far reaching that it can quell all of the ancient grudges, conflicts and arbitrary attacks the survivors of the Great Legions and their Renegade allies/enemies hurl against one another. The Chaos Gods actively perpetuate this condition, since the wars their followers embark on feed and strengthen them, ensuring that they have a constant supply of fodder-souls and influence within the material universe to sustain themselves. As such, wars can be fought for reasons as practical as occupying a Dark Forge world to "...because Slaanesh told me to go to war wearing only one boot and singing The Emperor Loves me backwards in my dreams, that's why." Then, of course, you have the ancient grudges and ideological differences that have cropped up between the different cults and legions; endlessly fertile ground for engendering conflict. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I was thinking no more than a couple hundred on both sides. The engagement between the two would also be confined to a system. The IW raid an armory world, but then the WE raid the corresponding moon which has the largest population center in said system. Now both parties want what the other has and so the inevitable happens. My tiny crusade just happens to be stuck in the middle. Does that sound plausible? It seems plausible but I wonder why the two armies wouldn't have wanted both targets from the start or noticed the other's ship in orbit. Without changing your whole idea, what if one faction was already engaged with the local defenders while the other attempted to swoop in and lay claim to the prize while they were distracted. This angers the faction already on the ground who then proceed to divert resources into stopping the other warband. It would also give your BT a potential ally in the remaining local defenders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisisJimmy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 //SNIP// They are described as "having possible ties to the Word Bearers legion" BUT who are credited as one of "Three Khorne worshipping warbands, all World Eater sub-factions: Lord Zhufors Skulltakers..the Sanctified and the Berserkers of Skallathrax". //SNIP// And like I said, since I don't have any Imperial Armour Volumes, I can neither confirm nor deny this. I think this is a quote from the book taken out of context. If you read that list it paints a very different picture. All other lore states that The Sanctified are an off shoot of the Word Bearers, but this isn't really the thread to debate this. Really, you can pick and chose any reason why any faction would be fighting each other. Personally, I'm liking the whole "one side trying to steal the glory from the other" angle. It could be easily explained by IW laying siege to a world for whatever reason (technology/conquest/they didn't like the rulers face) and the WE seeing a good scrap and hoping to join in the fun. And by fun I mean slaughtering everything that moves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The Sanctified are a former group of Word Bearers, who splintered post Heresy, and now worship Khorne (perhaps as a throwback to their previous Khorne worshipping fluff). That is exactly what I thought. But then there was this post. But would it follow the world eater theme Okay, i took the time to do the research and there is a warband in IA7 (Seige of Vraaks pt3, pg 138) called "The Sanctified" clearly depicted as armed with a bolter, and who use advanced daemoncracy to open the warp portal to Vraaks and allow the Daemonic incursion to escalate, and eventually summon The Unbound, mightiest of Khornes Daemons. They are described as "having possible ties to the Word Bearers legion" BUT who are credited as one of "Three Khorne worshipping warbands, all World Eater sub-factions: Lord Zhufors Skulltakers..the Sanctified and the Berserkers of Skallathrax". As we can see, teh Sanctified ARE astartes of the World Eaters Legion who use bolters and are so favoured by Khorne as to be able to summon his hosts.Clearly the WE have always been able to use bolters, s infered by the Sanctified being WE and therefore already lobotomized and so ALL WE and berzerkers are most likely able to use bolters. Happy hunting :) And like I said, since I don't have any Imperial Armour Volumes, I can neither confirm nor deny this. They're definitely of the Word Bearers. There was a story about them on the Gw website ages ago, I can remember the original article, but it's only available via an archive link. Look at their lexicanum page. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I remember that article. It was the "Create your own Warband" article. And I looked at their Lexicanum page as well. But as much as people complain about Lexicanum's legitimacy, I just leave it alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Sorry, I wasn't advocating the veracity of the lexi article, it's got the archive link in the sources. That's mainly what I was getting at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 I was thinking that an IW warband arrives first and their primary target is the armory world. Basically, lets grab all these vehicles and munitions, and then we'll focus on the people. And because both warbands are relatively small in size, they would rather focus on one area and then go after the other. The WE warband translates in system and finds the IW. They think the IW are going after the population because thats the main reason the WE came to the system. Space battle ensues with WE coming out on top, but just barely. They decide to pacify the population, while effectively blockading the armory world. Once they have accomplished their first mission they will destroy the rest of the IW and take the spoils of war themselves. Hope thats been descriptive enough. First time writing fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Sorry, I wasn't advocating the veracity of the lexi article, it's got the archive link in the sources. That's mainly what I was getting at. Oh believe me, I know. It's just since I had someone write me five thousand words as to why I can't reference Lexicanum, I just stay away from mentioning it, whether it be for veracity or citing a source. And Reckoning, sounds like a decent start. Any chance we could see it after you flesh it out? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Well I'm basically doing a summarized version for now. Just to add some back story to my crusade before I start modeling and painting them. As more time allows (school has a way of wasting all mine presently), I'll try to add more depth. Thank you everyone for helping. I knew I could count on you trait...I mean...people with different beliefs... :confused: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3037590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 The Sanctified are a former group of Word Bearers, who splintered post Heresy, and now worship Khorne (perhaps as a throwback to their previous Khorne worshipping fluff). That is exactly what I thought. But then there was this post. But would it follow the world eater theme Okay, i took the time to do the research and there is a warband in IA7 (Seige of Vraaks pt3, pg 138) called \"The Sanctified\" clearly depicted as armed with a bolter, and who use advanced daemoncracy to open the warp portal to Vraaks and allow the Daemonic incursion to escalate, and eventually summon The Unbound, mightiest of Khornes Daemons. They are described as \"having possible ties to the Word Bearers legion\" BUT who are credited as one of \"Three Khorne worshipping warbands, all World Eater sub-factions: Lord Zhufors Skulltakers..the Sanctified and the Berserkers of Skallathrax\". As we can see, teh Sanctified ARE astartes of the World Eaters Legion who use bolters and are so favoured by Khorne as to be able to summon his hosts.Clearly the WE have always been able to use bolters, s infered by the Sanctified being WE and therefore already lobotomized and so ALL WE and berzerkers are most likely able to use bolters. Happy hunting :D And like I said, since I don\'t have any Imperial Armour Volumes, I can neither confirm nor deny this. They\'re definitely of the Word Bearers. There was a story about them on the Gw website ages ago, I can remember the original article, but it\'s only available via an archive link. Look at their lexicanum page. No, clearly they may once have been word bearers, but are NOW described as a WE offshoot with suspected ties to WB due to there expertise at daemonancy. I have both articles here in front if me, and anyone else with them can vouch the same.Thats it, its official, sorry to sound condescending but i looove vraks and still run the campaigns and have had this conversation more times then the EC have warm bodies....eeewwww. Anyway, until i can make a PDF page into a jpg file, well do this the hard way. The Lexicanum page of The Sanctified.Note the warband designation is a flaming daemonic skull, they have a black helmet and rather ordinary power armour. http://i41.tinypic.com/r1eiiw.jpg The Vraks version on the left is different to teh GW "Renegade Warbands" article on the right. http://i39.tinypic.com/2n1hxme.jpg Pre-Vraks shoulder pauldron http://i42.tinypic.com/334rc6w.png Vraks-era shoulder pauldron In the Vraks book (pg 138, IA 6) the Sanctified are depicted as having modified power armour and silver trim/helmet - but most important the icon has changed from a flaming skull to a rune of Khorne in flames, they are also clearly described as a World Eater splinter along with Zhufors Kulltakers and the bezerkers of Skalathrax, both undoubtedly WE. Both articles are published 2008 (as far as i can tell), with Vraks having been published last - which leaves me with the conclusion that while the Sanctified may once have been WB, they have been from at least the outset of the Vraksian campaign, a splinter of the WE - probably through a re-dedication from WB to WE and thus explaining the change of pauldron icon. We can see that The Sanctified are a WE splinter war-band dedicate to Khorne and using bolters who are probably highly valued for there ability to summon forth the daemonic servants of Khorne through portals and rather then a frenzy of blood shedding. Anyway, the opportunity to assault the greatest builders of fortress\'s in the univers is reason enough. - reason for edit - added pictures showing difference in two versions, mostly for future article. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3039055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Well the wiki shows that their current symbol is a burning rune of Khorne. And it even shows the details from the GW article that was mentioned. I believe it was the old "Make your own warband" article but it hasn't been up in years. I think it got lost when GW reformatted their site. So I don't know what happened. Because everyone has been quick to follow the change when one of the Imperial Armour Volume(Number 9 of the Badab War I believe) changed Periclitor from a Night Lord to a Word Bearer. Although he is still listed under Notable Night Lords on the wiki. The wiki also says that the Sanctified were mentioned in IA volume 9 as well. Maybe Forgeworld retconned themselves? I don't know. Like I said, I'm pretty confused about the whole thing and it makes me happy that I just stuck with the Night Lords instead of picking a warband because I don't have to worry about the fluff changing too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250461-the-chaos-legions/#findComment-3039074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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