Brotherhood of Psykers and Wound Allocation

[Gentlemanloser]

A discussion in the OI cropped up about a Purifier Keeper of the Flame being thier own group for wound allocation due to the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. I thought I'd bounce it over here, for more opinions. ;)

 

The original thread;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=250215

 

Basicaly the premise is that becuase BoP singles out the Keeper s the mini that suffers the units perils test, that the Keeper, even with identicle Stats, Wargear and Special Rules, should be his own save/wound allocation group.

 

I disagree with this.

 

The only distinction for wound groups are;

 

are identicle in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear

 

Now, assuming the Keeper has been given the same wargear as the other Purifiers (for example it's a 5 man squad with 5 Halberds), then he also has the Stats and Special Rules as the rest of the Squad.

 

Should the outcome of any of the units special rules be taken into account when forming save/wound allocation groups? I don't think so. How would this work when the Keeper dies? Becuase of BoP, then you'd have a random member of the squad be thier own save/wound allocation group for every attack...

 

A 5 man Purifier Squad, all armed with Halberds is a signle group for wound allocation purposes.

[ShinyRhino]

A discussion in the OI cropped up about a Purifier Keeper of the Flame being thier own group for wound allocation due to the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. I thought I'd bounce it over here, for more opinions. :)

 

The original thread;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=250215

 

Basicaly the premise is that becuase BoP singles out the Keeper s the mini that suffers the units perils test, that the Keeper, even with identicle Stats, Wargear and Special Rules, should be his own save/wound allocation group.

 

I disagree with this.

 

The only distinction for wound groups are;

 

are identicle in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear

 

Now, assuming the Keeper has been given the same wargear as the other Purifiers (for example it's a 5 man squad with 5 Halberds), then he also has the Stats and Special Rules as the rest of the Squad.

 

Should the outcome of any of the units special rules be taken into account when forming save/wound allocation groups? I don't think so. How would this work when the Keeper dies? Becuase of BoP, then you'd have a random member of the squad be thier own save/wound allocation group for every attack...

 

A 5 man Purifier Squad, all armed with Halberds is a signle group for wound allocation purposes.

 

I'd lean towards saying he's separate, purely because he has his own statline in the unit entry. However, the same argument has been made in the past for Sergeants in Assault Terminator units who duplicate armaments with at least one other model in the unit. Identical charactertistics, but a different statline.

It's a grey area rule that is subject to a roundabout of interpretations based on those factors. Tak it over with your opponent from game to game, and dice off if it's a sticking point.

[Gentlemanloser]

But don't Assault Termie Sarge's with the same wargear satistfy the RAW?

 

They (like the Keeper) have the same Stats, Wargear, Weapons and Special Rules as the rest of the Squad. Unlike Combi Weapons that have/have not been fired, they are identicle gaming wise to the rest of the unit.

 

Having thier own prfoile in the army list isn't enough to warrant becomig thier own save/wound allocation group.

[Legatus]

Basicaly the premise is that becuase BoP singles out the Keeper s the mini that suffers the units perils test, that the Keeper, even with identicle Stats, Wargear and Special Rules, should be his own save/wound allocation group.

I would say that is a viable interpretation of the "identical in game terms" rules. The purpose of those rules is to determine whether or not one model would work exactly like another model in the game, and usually if they have the "same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear" then that is generally the case. However, in this case of a Grey Knight unit with Justicar/Knight of the Flame, even though you could say that the Grey Knights and the squad leaders all have the 'Brotherhood of Psykers" special rule, that special rule clearly makes a case of the game play distinction between the squad members and the squad leader. The two are not the same and are treated as distinct by this special rule. They are clearly not "identical in game terms".

[dswanick]

Basicaly the premise is that becuase BoP singles out the Keeper s the mini that suffers the units perils test, that the Keeper, even with identicle Stats, Wargear and Special Rules, should be his own save/wound allocation group.

I would say that is a viable interpretation of the "identical in game terms" rules. The purpose of those rules is to determine whether or not one model would work exactly like another model in the game, and usually if they have the "same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear" then that is generally the case. However, in this case of a Grey Knight unit with Justicar/Knight of the Flame, even though you could say that the Grey Knights and the squad leaders all have the 'Brotherhood of Psykers" special rule, that special rule clearly makes a case of the game play distinction between the squad members and the squad leader. The two are not the same and are treated as distinct by this special rule. They are clearly not "identical in game terms".

Which is similar to the argument for/against unexpended combi-weapons counting as the same WAG as expemded ones and expended ones counting identically to normal Bolters. Identical stats, rules, and wargear but the wargear's fired/unfired state makes a distinction between those with and those without. I don't think this question will have a satisfactory RAW answer, just as the other did not. So discuss or dice off.

[Gentlemanloser]

However, in this case of a Grey Knight unit with Justicar/Knight of the Flame, even though you could say that the Grey Knights and the squad leaders all have the 'Brotherhood of Psykers" special rule, that special rule clearly makes a case of the game play distinction between the squad members and the squad leader. The two are not the same and are treated as distinct by this special rule. They are clearly not "identical in game terms".

 

And if the Keeper is dead? (The justicar is a non issue as they have a different Ld and A value to the rest of the squad).

 

Do you randomly choose a GK that is to take the Perils test each time the unit is attacked, and make him his own wound group?

 

How about 'identicle for gaming purposes'? It doesn't matter if the Keeper (with a NFH) or a Purifier (with a NFH) actually taes the PErils test, in game. The outcome is the same, regardless of which mini actually takes the test. One is a random selection, the other is already determined. But who takes it has no different impact in game.

 

Surely the whole unit having the BoP rule still makes the whole unit identicle for gaming purposes regardless of the actual rule itself?

[breng77]

Do you randomly choose a GK that is to take the Perils test each time the unit is attacked, and make him his own wound group?

 

No this only occurs when the perils occurs, but the Keeper is different as he is alreay determined as the model picked out against perils (or any attack targeting a psyker)

 

How about 'identicle for gaming purposes'? It doesn't matter if the Keeper (with a NFH) or a Purifier (with a NFH) actually taes the PErils test, in game. The outcome is the same, regardless of which mini actually takes the test. One is a random selection, the other is already determined. But who takes it has no different impact in game.

 

THis is only true if the entire squad is equipped the same. If for example, the Keeper and 4 other purifiers have Halberds, and then 2 other purifiers have Hammers, and 2 others have psycannons. At that point who takes perils makes a big impact in the game.

 

I'm really not sure to the truth of this, but it is clear that the rules effect the Keeper differently than the rest of his squad, and as such he is not "identical" in game terms. The BoP rule clearly states that he is different (he is the first to die to perils, and is not randomly chosen.).

[Grey Mage]

The only distinction for wound groups are;

 

are identicle in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear

 

Now, assuming the Keeper has been given the same wargear as the other Purifiers (for example it's a 5 man squad with 5 Halberds), then he also has the Stats and Special Rules as the rest of the Squad.

Heres the rub: while is stats are identical numerically to the rest of the squad he does NOT have the same profile of characteristics- he has his own set, with its own title. They dont share the same profile of characteristics, they share an equivalent profile.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM, does that equate to any difference in gaming terms?

 

No this only occurs when the perils occurs, but the Keeper is different as he is alreay determined as the model picked out against perils (or any attack targeting a psyker)

 

Ah, but here, you're looking at the outcome of the special rule for the keeper, but ignoring it for the rest of the Squad.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Either, the save/wound allocation groups only care if you have a special rule or not. Or they care about how that rule is resolved.

[ShinyRhino]

GM, does that equate to any difference in gaming terms?

 

Think of it this way, if the Keeper didn't have his own statline profile in the unit entry, he wouldn't exist in the game. If he doesn't exist, the special rule is useless. His existence via the profile statline makes him different in game terms, simply because he's now there.

 

 

As mentioned before, you'll find this sort of argument, whether it's a TDA Sergeant or a Keeper of the Flame, is an exercise in tail-chasing. it devolves into circular logic. explain the situation to your opponent, ask their opinion, state yours, and if they don't match, roll the dice.

 

100% Grey Area Rule

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't see it as a grey area in the slightest.

 

The Keeper fulfills the three criteria to be counted as identicle for gaming purposes as the rest of his Squad.

 

As for the seperate profile entry, I address that in the linked thread. It's there to show what upgrades he can/can't purchase.

[Spacefrisian]

Lets search for a real world thing.

 

You have an ocean and a sea, both are pretty much the same eg large bodies of salty water but have different names.

 

Now apply this back to 40k.

 

We have the squad and the keeper/ assault tda and Sergeant, both have the same stattline but still have a different name.

 

See no grey areas.

[Legatus]

The Justicar is a character, while the rest of the squad members are not. So, aside from the 'Brotherhood of Psykers' special rule making a point to distinguish between the two, the Rulebook does so as well. And while the rulebook itself does not give special in-game effects pertaining squad characters, being characters means they can potentially be targeted by another army's rules. Rules targeting squad characters are rare, but they do exist. Currently I only know of the Necron Special Character Imotekh the Stormlord, who is awarded additional close combat victory result points if he kills an enemy character.

[Stormshadow]

I just saw this post and I think it is good of you, Gentlemanloser, to move the discussion her instead of highjacking the other thread.

 

To give you some insight on how the KoF is still unique, even in a squad of equally armed models I will give you an example.

 

If you have a squad with an IC that is important but lack the ability hold his own in cc you must try to prevent him from coming into base with the enemy. When assaulted however (in this case by purifiers), you do not have a choice, if he can get in to base to base, he must. With planed maneuvering you can make it so that the only model able to swing at your IC is the KoF, this will give the IC a chance to survive the first round of combat if the KoF suffers Perils.

 

There are many ways the fact whether the KoF is alive or dead impacts the game, some are advantages to the controlling player, and some to the opposing player. This may not always be the case with a terminator sergeant or a depleted combi weapon, but it is with GK squad leaders. So I agree that this case is not a gray area.

 

If you do not understand that the KoF is different than the rest of the squad, pleas trust us when we tell you that he is. This is why I am opposed to you rolling the saves first and then allocating the wounds. It is for the same reason I wouldn’t allow you to roll first, glans at the dreadnought standing 2” away and say, “emmm, the saved dice rolls were for the purifiers with Hammer and Psycannon, and the failed one was for the one with the Halberd.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Justicar is a character, while the rest of the squad members are not. So, aside from the 'Brotherhood of Psykers' special rule making a point to distinguish between the two, the Rulebook does so as well. And while the rulebook itself does not give special in-game effects pertaining squad characters, being characters means they can potentially be targeted by another army's rules. Rules targeting squad characters are rare, but they do exist. Currently I only know of the Necron Special Character Imotekh the Stormlord, who is awarded additional close combat victory result points if he kills an enemy character.

 

Legatus, the RAW for wound allocation groups doesn't take other units special rules into aco:cuss, nor being an upgrade character.

 

There's only three distinctions to determin whether a mini is identicle in gaming to terms to another.

 

Same Stats, Same Weapons/Wargear and possessing the same Special Rules.

 

(As an aside, I can't remember if the following target IC's or UC's, but there's also potentially the Sanguinator and Deldar Husk Blades. But they might be IC's only! :))

 

Edit: So the next question.

 

Is a Keeper of the Flame armed with a NFH identicle in gaming purposes to a Purifier armed with a NFH?

 

This is why I am opposed to you rolling the saves first and then allocating the wounds.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Legatus]

Legatus, the RAW for wound allocation groups doesn't take other units special rules into aco:cuss, nor being an upgrade character.

 

There's only three distinctions to determin whether a mini is identicle in gaming to terms to another.

 

Same Stats, Same Weapons/Wargear and possessing the same Special Rules.

Technically the models would have to share the same profile of characteristics, not the same stats. As has already been pointed out, the Justicar has his own profile.

[Morollan]

Legatus, the RAW for wound allocation groups doesn't take other units special rules into aco:cuss, nor being an upgrade character.

 

There's only three distinctions to determin whether a mini is identicle in gaming to terms to another.

 

Same Stats, Same Weapons/Wargear and possessing the same Special Rules.

Technically the models would have to share the same profile of characteristics, not the same stats. As has already been pointed out, the Justicar has his own profile.

 

This ^^. As far as I'm aware, if a model has a separate statline in the codex then it is distinct in gaming terms, even if the stats themselves are identical.

[Gentlemanloser]

But we need to look at what is ment by the profile of statistics.

 

If you have one that's all 4's with one name, and another that's all 4's but with another name, is that a different profile?

 

And if it is, *how* is it different in gaming terms?

 

The mini names have *no* effect on the game, nor 'gaming terms'.

[nurglez]

I was originally thinking that a knight of the flame was different, as he had a different "stat selection" in the codex. However, rereading the rulebook, I came across this quote.

 

page 25 of the rulebook

The rules for taking saving throws and removing

casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the

models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms.

By this we mean they have the same profile of

characteristics, the same special rules and the same

weapons and wargear.

Now, the unit has the rules brotherhood of psykers, not the knight of the flame. All other stats are the same, so if they are equipped the same, I would agree with Gentlemanloser and rule that they form the same wound group.

[Legatus]

But we need to look at what is ment by the profile of statistics.

 

If you have one that's all 4's with one name, and another that's all 4's but with another name, is that a different profile?

 

And if it is, *how* is it different in gaming terms?

Ok, seriously, you have to take your pick. Either the listed criteria for models being different in gaming terms are all that matters, and any further differences between the models that might exist are completely irrelevant, or what matters is whether the models are actually different in the game. You can't have your cake and eat it too, pointing out how rules distinguishing between a Justicar and the squad members do not matter because that is not listed in the rulebook as a distinguishing factor, but on the other hand pointing out how even though they might have distinct profiles the fact that their stats are the same means that there is not really a actual difference in gaming terms.

 

Is the list the crucial element? Then the Justicar is different, because he has his own profile.

 

Are differences during game play what really matters? Then the Justicar is different because the Brotherhood of Psykers rule treats him differently and because Characters are subject to certain rare rules that would not affect normal squad members.

[dswanick]

Legatus, the RAW for wound allocation groups doesn't take other units special rules into aco:cuss, nor being an upgrade character.

 

There's only three distinctions to determin whether a mini is identicle in gaming to terms to another.

 

Same Stats, Same Weapons/Wargear and possessing the same Special Rules.

Technically the models would have to share the same profile of characteristics, not the same stats. As has already been pointed out, the Justicar has his own profile.

 

This ^^. As far as I'm aware, if a model has a separate statline in the codex then it is distinct in gaming terms, even if the stats themselves are identical.

I can buy that argument - so long as you agree that a Vanguard Veteran Squad Space Marine Sergeant is still a different WAG from the Vanguard Veteran Squad Veterans upgraded to have Power Weapons instead of Close Combat Weapons.

[breng77]

except that in this case the Mini-name does have a different effect on the game in gaming terms. A mini named Purifier interacts differently with Bop then one named Knight of the flame.

 

The KoF and a regular Purifier are not Identical in game terms. As identical means alike in every way, and in terms of the game (with respect to BoP) the KoF is different than a regular Purifier.

[Morollan]

Legatus, the RAW for wound allocation groups doesn't take other units special rules into aco:cuss, nor being an upgrade character.

 

There's only three distinctions to determin whether a mini is identicle in gaming to terms to another.

 

Same Stats, Same Weapons/Wargear and possessing the same Special Rules.

Technically the models would have to share the same profile of characteristics, not the same stats. As has already been pointed out, the Justicar has his own profile.

 

This ^^. As far as I'm aware, if a model has a separate statline in the codex then it is distinct in gaming terms, even if the stats themselves are identical.

I can buy that argument - so long as you agree that a Vanguard Veteran Squad Space Marine Sergeant is still a different WAG from the Vanguard Veteran Squad Veterans upgraded to have Power Weapons instead of Close Combat Weapons.

 

Always have played that way. Different name = different wound allocation group, regardless of wargear.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ok, seriously, you have to take your pick. Either the listed criteria for models being different in gaming terms are all that matters

 

So what is a profile of characteristics? Does it inlcude name?

 

BRB doesn't include 'unit name' as a characteristic. Even the GK Codex lists Unit Name and Unit Profile as two seperate entries in the Army List.

 

Is a Proflile of Characteristics (as defined by the BRB);

 

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8 Save:3+

 

Different or identicle to;

 

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8 Save:3+

 

Are they different in gaming terms?

 

A units name, isn't it's profile of characteristics.

 

except that in this case the Mini-name does have a different effect on the game in gaming terms. A mini named Purifier interacts differently with Bop then one named Knight of the flame.

 

So if you use the outcome of Special rules to determin wound groups, what do you do with a Squad of 4 Purifiers with Halberds, and no Keeper? You would have to resolve who takes the random perils each time you took wounding hits...

[Morollan]

A units name, isn't it's profile of characteristics.

 

The name forms part of the profile of characteristics. Look at all the examples in the brb.