Brotherhood of Psykers and Wound Allocation

[Gentlemanloser]

They don't. The BRB lists what the Characterists are. Name isn't a part of them.

[breng77]

No you would not, as once the Keeper is dead any one of those models can be the random guy who dies to perils. All of them are effected by the rule in the exact same manner, it is not as if after the keeper dies you roll(determine randomly) to determine the next guy, you roll when the perils happens. If the keeper is alive this roll is not needed. A model interacting differenly with a rule (not being random), is the point here. The keeper interacts differently with the rules, than any of the other squad members, the next guy to die is irrellevant as all of the remaining models are subject to the random selection.

[Morollan]

They don't. The BRB lists what the Characterists are. Name isn't a part of them.

 

No, but it is part of the profile. Again, look at all the examples.

[Legatus]

So what is a profile of characteristics? Does it inlcude name?

Yes, actually.

 

 

Is a Proflile of Characteristics (as defined by the BRB);

 

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8 Save:3+

 

Different or identicle to;

 

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8 Save:3+

 

Are they different in gaming terms?

That depends. Are those from two different profiles? Or did you just repeat the same profile? It is hard to tell without the name associated to those characteristics.

 

 

They don't. The BRB lists what the Characterists are. Name isn't a part of them.

It does not matter whether they have the same characteristics. What matters is that they use the same profile.

 

 

E.g. the Grey Knight Codex lists the following on page 31 and page 88 for the Purifier squad:

 

Purifier

4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

 

Knight of the Flame

4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

 

 

The summary on page 96 similarly makes the effort to list both the Purifier characteristics and the Knight of the Flame characteristics. The two are not unified into a single "Purifier squad model" profile, even though they have identical characteristics. They still get separate profiles.

[Gentlemanloser]

Characteristics

 

each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describ the various aspects of thier physical and mental make-up.

 

By RAW, a minis' Characteristic Profile is the 9 numbers.

 

It does not include a name. A name is not a Characteristic. It is not part of the Characteristic Profile.

 

The characteristics are: Weapon Skill <snip> and Armour Save (Sv).

 

Characteristic Profiles

 

Each model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics

 

As quoted above, the characteristics that make up a profile are the 9 stat values.

 

That's RAW.

 

If you have two different sets of 9 stats values that are identicle, they are idnetilce for gaming purposes. Regardless of the name of the model with that profile.

[Legatus]

each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describ the various aspects of thier physical and mental make-up.

By RAW, a minis' Characteristic Profile is the 9 numbers.

 

It does not include a name. A name is not a Characteristic. It is not part of the Characteristic Profile.

If the summary on page 96 of the Codex Grey Knights only listed the nine characteristics values in each row then it would be pretty damn useless, wouldn't it?

 

But maybe you could proceed to the next page of the rulebook (page 7) and see what it says about profiles.

 

Characteristic Profiles

Each model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics. At the back of this book, and in the Codex books for each army, you will find profiles for many races and creatures.

 

Below are the profiles for an Ork Boy and a Space Marine of the Imperium:

 

Ork Boy 4 2 3 4 1 2 2 7 6+

Space Marine 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+

 

Obviously the interesting bits about the profile are the model's characteristics values. But the reason you know that a Space Marine has BS 4, and not BS 2, is because the profile titled "Space Marine" is for the Space Marine, while the profile titled "Ork Boy" is for the Ork Boy. If the profiles weren't specifically labeled for the models they are associated to, you would be pretty clueless.

 

As pointed out earlier, the Codex Grey Knights lists the following profiles for the Purifier squad on the pages 31, 88 and 96:

 

Purifier 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

 

Knight of the Flame 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

 

 

So, just as the example from the rulebook presents the profile for a Space Marine model and an Ork Boy model, the purifier squad entry has one profile for the Purifiers and one profile for the Knight of the Flame.

[Gentlemanloser]

But in gaming terms, they are identicle.

 

I've quoted as much of the BRB as I can, I don't think there's anything else I can add.

 

The Characteristic Profile does not include the models name (That's quoted directly from the BRB). The models name is a seperate identifier. Identicle Characteristic Profiles are counted as identicle for gaming purposes, regardless of the specific profile names in use.

 

The Wound Allocation rules don't mention the units/models name at all. It's not a factor. Only how they perform in game, and what their statistics are.

 

Identical Statistcis are what those rules look for, as only the 9 statistics make up a models Characteristic Profile.

 

But I'm just reiterating my posts now.

 

Unless someone brings anything new to this, or asks me something specifically, I'm bowing out.

 

For me, it's clear cut, RAW, and no where near a grey area issue.

[Legatus]

But in gaming terms, they are identicle.

No, really, "identical in gaming terms" is defined as "having the same profile". If they have different profiles, they are by definition not identical in gaming terms.

 

If you want to interprete "identical in gaming terms" more as there being actual differences in the game, and not strictly according to the list given in the rulebook, I would welcome that. But then I would refer you back to how Purifier squad members and the Knight of the flame are treated differently both by the 'Brotherhood of Psykers' special rule and by enemy rules that target characters. They are actually different in the game. But when people point that out, you reject that by claiming that it is not required by the rulebook for models to be considered "identical in gaming terms".

 

So, please. Make up your mind. Would you prefer models to be considered "identical in gaming terms" if there really are no differences between them during gameplay? Then Purifiers and Knights of the Flame are different because they are actually different during play. Or would you prefer models to be considered "identical in gaming terms" if they strictly meet the requirements stated in the rulebook? Then Purifiers and Knights of the Flame are different because they have their own distinct profile.

 

 

The Characteristic Profile does not include the models name (That's quoted directly from the BRB). The models name is a seperate identifier. Identicle Characteristic Profiles are counted as identicle for gaming purposes, regardless of the specific profile names in use.

That is not RAW. RAW requires the two models to have the same profile to be considere identical.

 

 

The Wound Allocation rules don't mention the units/models name at all. It's not a factor. Only how they perform in game, and what their statistics are.

 

Identical Statistcis are what those rules look for, as only the 9 statistics make up a models Characteristic Profile.

I am not really disagreeing with that interpretation. But then I would also go on and say that any differernces in gameplay are what those rules look for, even if they don't mention "character status" (which the Knight of the Flame has but the other squad members do not) or "being treated differently by a special rule". But I cannot have you get hung up on the strict RAW of "identical in gaming terms" when I point out those differences, only to then have you claim that two different profiles that happen to have the same characteristics values are not really different during a game, and should therefor still be considered "identical in gaming terms".

[Gentlemanloser]

Edit: Missed out the top point;

 

Or would you prefer models to be considered "identical in gaming terms" if they strictly meet the requirements stated in the rulebook?

 

By the RAW. ;)

 

I think my position on identicle in gamign with regards to special rules has become confusing, trying to exmaples that contradict themselves when you try to use the outcome of the BoP rule.

 

Well, going by strict RAW, indenticle in gaming terms is;

 

by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules, and the same weapons and wargear

 

While the Keeper is an upgrade character, this does nothing in terms of changing gameplay anyway (For clarify, if you were making the less RAW arguement of how they play out in game). The Squad has the same Leadership, and 'Upgrade Character' isn't a special rule the Keeper has.

 

No, really, "identical in gaming terms" is defined as "having the same profile". If they have different profiles, they are by definition not identical in gaming terms.

 

That is not RAW. RAW requires the two models to have the same profile to be considere identical.

 

I have show, by RAW, that the Keeper has the same characteristic profile as a Purifier. The name doesn't matter. The 9 values are identicle. There really is no was to disprove this.

 

The Characteristic Profile is *only* the set of 9 values, that's RAW. They are identicle for a Keeper and Pruifier. Therefore they have the same profile of characteristics. No one is going to try to say 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+ isn't exactly the same as 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+.

 

We're assuming the Keeper has the same weapons and wargear, so we can ignore this.

 

And as Upgrade Charcater isn't a special rule, and the Keeper has the same special rules as a Purifier, this condition is satisfied.

 

There really isn't a means by RAW to show that an identically geared Keeper is not 'identicle in gaming terms' to a Purifier.

[DarkGuard]

Legatus, do you have a reference where is says identical in gaming terms relates to characteristic profiles? I'm pretty sure I've never seen that so if you can point it that would be great.

 

I've read that section many times, debated many times, and I believe I'm with gentlemanloser here, the actual name of the profile means little. What matters is differences in profile, differences in special rules, and differences in wargear, the name means nothing.

 

For example, a Terminator Assault squad all with thunder hammer and storm shield. You have 5 guys including the Terminator Sergeant who has his separate profile. You take 5 wounds. You allocate them onto individual members of the squad, and then roll all armour saves for models identical in gaming terms together. Does the name impact the game? No. Does its characteristics, its wargear, special rules? Yes. I check to see if these are different to the normal Assault Terminators, they aren't. So I roll them all together.

 

I have a unit of 5 Purifiers, including a Knight of Flame. All have halberds and storm bolters. I take 5 wounds one on each. I look to roll identical models together as before. The 4 normal Purifiers are obviously being rolled together, I then look at the Knight of Flame. The name is different, but that means nothing. It has the same wargear, same characteristics? Check. Same special rules? No. Brotherhood of psykers says that Perils are resolved against that the Knight of Flame if he's in the unit. That makes him non-identical to the other models, as a special rule interacts with him differently. So I roll for him separately, and the rest together. The name means nothing, the rule which references the name means everything. But just because a rule referenced a name for one unit doesn't mean we can apply that to all units like Terminator Assault squads.

 

So the Knight of Flame is always different to a Purifier, but not because of his name. Same can be said of a Justicar in a Termiantor squad, as a special rule interacts differently to them compared to the other models in the unit. But a Terminator Sergeant has the same profile and special rules as a Terminator, the only way it can be differentiated is by having different wargear to them. It's separate entry is I imagine more for completeness and uniformity across the Codex as opposed to trying to make it different in gaming terms.

[Legatus]

Legatus, do you have a reference where is says identical in gaming terms relates to characteristic profiles? I'm pretty sure I've never seen that so if you can point it that would be great.

 

I've read that section many times, debated many times, and I believe I'm with gentlemanloser here, the actual name of the profile means little. What matters is differences in profile, differences in special rules, and differences in wargear, the name means nothing.

It's on page 25 of the rulebook, first paragraph, and has been quoted in thos thread a couple of times.

 

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

 

---

 

 

While the Keeper is an upgrade character, this does nothing in terms of changing gameplay anyway (For clarify, if you were making the less RAW arguement of how they play out in game).

On the contrary. Since there are rules that specifically target characters, it does make a difference during the game.

 

 

I have show, by RAW, that the Keeper has the same characteristic profile as a Purifier.

And I have pointed out two times already that no less than three pages of the Codex Grey Knights list two separate profiles for the Purifiers and the Knight of the Flame. Two profiles. One for the purifiers. One for the Knight of the Flame. They do not use the same profile.

 

 

The Characteristic Profile is *only* the set of 9 values, that's RAW.

It is not. A chatacteristics profile is ALWAYS associated with a specific model type. You do not just have abstract collections of numbers without any context. You have the profile of a Space Marine and the profile of an Ork Boy as an example in the Rulebook. Every model you can use in the game has a profile. Sometimes several models will use the same profile, such as all Tactical Marines using the same profile, or all Ork Kommandos using the same profile. Three pages in the Codex Grey Knights list two separate profiles for Purifiers and the Knight of the Flame. They happen to have the same characteristics values, but they are listed as two profiles.

 

The Purifiers are given profile A, and the Knight of the Flame is given Profile B. Profile A and Profile B happen to have the same value for each of the characteristics. But the Knight of the Flame has not been given Profile A like the rest of the squad. He has been given Profile B instead, which is listed separately from Profile A.

[dswanick]

It's on page 25 of the rulebook, first paragraph, and has been quoted in thos thread a couple of times.

I'm thinking that the whole of this debate comes down to what is meant by "they have the same profile of characteristics".

Side A looks at this phrase and interprets it to mean the numbers. IE : 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8, thus all models in the unit which share these numbers in their Profile of Characteristics are identical.

Side B looks at this phrase and interprets it to mean the entry as a information containing block. IE "Space Marine Profile of Characteristics" and "Veteran Sergeant Profile of Characteristics" which may or may not contain the same numerical values but are none the less different because the numbers are held in a different container.

I've read the section in the BRB several times and I still can't decide which of these two views are intended by GW. There are times when it seems that it's the numbers which matter, and other times when it seems that it is the container regardless of the values or the label attached.

[Stormshadow]

We have to clarify something before we go on with this.

 

Those of you that say that he is not “different in game terms” because of his stats, weapons and rules. Are you saying this because you do not think he impacts the game in a different way than the other squad members? Or do you think he does, but don’t care as long as the three criteria are filled?

 

I think that the KoF is a separate wound allocation group because he impacts the game differently from the squad. He is an individual that changes how the game is played depending on if he is alive or dead. But it isn’t necessary for me to explain how he is different in game terms if the people that will not single him out when making saves already know this but don’t think it matters.

 

So what are we talking about her? You do not think he is any different than the other models in his squad? Or you do, but you do not think you have to take this into consideration while making saves?

I think this is important to clarify so we can start talking about the same thing.

[breng77]

I think I found the answer to this in the Necron Codex of all things.

 

Trazyn the Infinite, has a weapon called the Empathic Obliterator. If it deals a wound, you "Roll a D6 for every model in the combat(friendly or enemy) the exactly the same name on their Characteristic Profile..." This would seem to suggest that the name on the profile is in fact part of the profile. Otherwise why not just say with the same name.

 

Throw that on top of the fact that BoP makes the KoF different in gaming terms. Purifiers use his LD for psychic checks if he is alive (as spelled out, though it is irrelevant because his LD is the same as theirs), and more importantly any Perils or attack that targets psykers targets him, unless he is dead and then it targets a random member of the unit.

 

Now the arguments against this have been Name is not part of the Profile of Characteristics (I find no evidence of this.)

 

each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describ the various aspects of thier physical and mental make-up.

 

in no way excludes the Profile from including a Name.

 

Nor does the fact that Name is not a characteristic.

 

The Name is part of the profile (as evidenced above by Trayzan.)

 

 

The second Part of the argument is that all Purifiers have BoP and being treated differently is not relavant. RAW by their description of what is Identical in game terms (possesion of wargear, special rules, etc.) I can see this argument. However, it does fly in the face of the actual definition of what Identical means (Which in this case would be are the same in game for all purposes.).

 

The models are not identical in game as they do not work the same way in game, but if you want to go RAW, they have a different Name on their Profile of Characteristics, and thus are not identical in that way. Just at Trayzan the infinte, if he killed a Purifier he would not be rolling to wound the KoF.

[DarkGuard]

Legatus, do you have a reference where is says identical in gaming terms relates to characteristic profiles? I'm pretty sure I've never seen that so if you can point it that would be great.

 

I've read that section many times, debated many times, and I believe I'm with gentlemanloser here, the actual name of the profile means little. What matters is differences in profile, differences in special rules, and differences in wargear, the name means nothing.

It's on page 25 of the rulebook, first paragraph, and has been quoted in thos thread a couple of times.

 

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

 

And yet no mention of the name there. Characteristics mentioned, as in WS, BS etc, special rules, weapons, wargear, but doesn't mention name. Sorry Legatus that quote isn't good enough IMO.

 

Stormshadow, we're talking about whether the name of a model is enough to warrant that model being a different wound allocation group even if its rules, stats and wargear are the same. Or at least that's what I gathered. That's why I compared the KoF and puris to a Hammernator squad, the Terminator Sergeant has a different name but everything else is the same, he impacts the game in the same way as the other Terminators, therefore same wound allocation group. The KoF, even if he has the same equipment etc impacts the game differently to the others thanks to BoP, and so is his own wound allocation group.

 

breng77, as usual I wouldn't take an obscure from one Codex as precedence for all other Codices. Unless Legatus or someone else can come up with a better quote that includes names as conditions for wound allocation groups, or GW FAQ it then I myself won't be playing it that way.

[breng77]

AS I posted elsewhere, I'm done with this one, the two sides are not going to agree, so little point in continuing.

[Legatus]

And yet no mention of the name there. Characteristics mentioned, as in WS, BS etc, special rules, weapons, wargear, but doesn't mention name. Sorry Legatus that quote isn't good enough IMO.

Well, you were asking for where it mentioned "profiles" as being important for "identical in gaming terms", and that's what you got.

 

For proof that profiles do include names, please see any profile in any Codex or rulebook of your choice. But I'll go with the one given as examples in the 5th Edition Rulebook:

Below are the profiles for an Ork Boy and a Space Marine of the Imperium:

---

Ork Boy 4 2 3 4 1 2 2 7 6+

Space Marine 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+

---

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 7, characteristics initials omitted for formating reasons)

That is how a profile looks. And the simple reason for that is that a profile is associated directly with a model. a list of characteristics without information to what model those characteristics are associated to would be completely and utterly useless.

 

On page 7 of the Rulebook, you are presented with the profile of an Ork Boy and a Space Marine as an example. On page 31 of the Codex Grey Knights (and on page 88, and again on page 96) you are presented with the profile of a Purifier and the profile of a Knight of the Flame.

Purifier 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

Knight of the Flame 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

Their characteristics values happen to be the same. Yet on all three pages that list them, they are given separate profiles. Not a single profile. Separately listed profiles.

 

 

That's why I compared the KoF and puris to a Hammernator squad, the Terminator Sergeant has a different name but everything else is the same, he impacts the game in the same way as the other Terminators, therefore same wound allocation group.

If you want to determine wound allocation by actual gameplay differences, I am all for that. In that case the Knight of the Flame would be a different model group for wounding because he is treated differently by the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule and because as a character he is subject to certain rules the remaining squad members are not. But if you dismiss those points because "they are not listed in the rulebook as criteria for being different in gaming terms" then we'll stick to that list. And that list asks for models to use the same profile, similar statistics or no discernable differences in gameplay be damned.

[DarkGuard]

You make good enough points to support your thinking Legatus, but I just can't agree with you. I don't feel the evidence you point to the rulebook is conclusive proof for names being used, in game the game cares little about names, just what those models can do on the tabletop, defined by other characteristics. That's the conclusions I've come to from plenty of consideration and playing etc.

 

As others have said I also don't think both sides will agree, I believe this debate has been attempted many times with no budging from either side, and why not, they both have good and valid points. Lets wait for a badly worded FAQ and then battle it out again. :teehee:

[Legatus]

in game the game cares little about names, just what those models can do on the tabletop, defined by other characteristics.

But as has also been pointed out, there are actual differences between the Purifier squad members and the Knight of the Flame.

 

If there is no Knight, then a wound from a perils of the warp attack or an attack against psykers would hit a random model of the squad, which could potentially be a Purifier with Psycannon, or the one model with the warding stave. If the Knight is alive, it will always hit him first, and could not randomly hit one of those models.

 

If Imothek the Stormlord kills the Knight with one of his close combat attacks, then he counts as having inflicted D3 additional wounds for that combat resolution. If he kills any of the Purifiers then nothing special happens.

 

As you see, there are actual gameplay implications depending on whether the model is a Knight of the Flame or a regular Purifier.

 

Unfortunately the rulebook forgot to list "being a character" as a distinguishing factor when it was describing when models are considered to be different in gaming terms. But then again the reason for that could be that squad characters usually do get their own profile, separate of the other squad members.

[Gentlemanloser]

I still don't get the reasoning behind using the outcome of BoP.

 

Sure, all Purifier have the same special rule (BoP), but if you check the outcome of the BoP every time the units suffers a Shooting/CC wounding hit, then you *must* check the outcome of BoP every time.

 

If you do so and the Keeper is alive, then BoP would treat the Keeper differently to the rest of the squad. The Keeper would take a Perils hit.

 

If the Keeper isn't alive, then when you check BoP you would have to find the Random Purifier that would then take the Squads Perils hit. And the random Purifier would then be differen tot he rest of the Purifiers.

 

You can't pick and choose how to use the BoP rule. Either all Purifiers/Keepers have the same rule and it's a wash. Or you check the outcome of BoP every time the unit takes a Shooting/CC wounding hit, and have to follow BoP in it's entirety to see which mini in the unit would take a Perils.

 

You can't pick and choose to use BoP to allocate wounds just becuase one member of the Squad is chosen by the rule, and the others are random.

[breng77]

That reasoning never made sense to me it is not the outcome of bop that matters it is how the rule treats the model in question. I.e. random vs specified. The kof is always the first model effected, the rest are effected the same way afterward. That is the difference, not the fact that he will take perils, but the fact that it is not random.

[Grey Mage]

Legatus, do you have a reference where is says identical in gaming terms relates to characteristic profiles? I'm pretty sure I've never seen that so if you can point it that would be great.

 

I've read that section many times, debated many times, and I believe I'm with gentlemanloser here, the actual name of the profile means little. What matters is differences in profile, differences in special rules, and differences in wargear, the name means nothing.

It's on page 25 of the rulebook, first paragraph, and has been quoted in thos thread a couple of times.

 

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

 

And yet no mention of the name there. Characteristics mentioned, as in WS, BS etc, special rules, weapons, wargear, but doesn't mention name. Sorry Legatus that quote isn't good enough IMO.

This was my point from earlier.

 

You see, just because the numbers in his profile are identical to those of his squadmates doesnt mean their profiles are identical. He has a different entry, and thus is a unique member of the squad. He has a similar profile, but it is not the same profile.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM,

 

Are you really trying to argue that 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+ isn't identicle to 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+?

[Legatus]

I still don't get the reasoning behind using the outcome of BoP.

Here is how it makes a difference:

 

A squad of 5 Purifiers (1 Knight with normal weapons, 2 Purifiers with normal weapons, 2 Purifiers with Psycannon) fails and one model is removed, leaving a unit of 4. In example A it had been a regular Purifier that had been removed, leaving the Knight, 1 Purifier and 2 Psycannons. In example B it had been the unlucky Knight who had failed his save, so 2 Purifiers and 2 Psycannons remain.

 

Example A (Knight alive)

Unit suffers a "Perils of the Warp" wound --> Knight is removed

 

Unit suffers a "hits Psykers" wound --> Knight is removed

Example B (no Knight)

Unit suffers a "Perils of the Warp" wound --> random model is removed (50% chance it is a psycannon)

 

Unit suffers a "hits Psykers" wound --> random model is removed (50% chance it is a psycannon)

 

Plus, in a large combat with several units involved, when Imotekh killed all 4 remaining members of this unit and one of that models was the Knight, the Necron side would then receive 4 + D3 combat resolution for those kills alone. If it had just been regular Purifiers, then the Necrons would only receive 4 combat resolution for them.

 

 

Edit:

GM,

 

Are you really trying to argue that 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+ isn't identicle to 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+?

No, he is arguing that

Purifier 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+

Knight of the Flame 4/4/4/4/1/2/9/3+

Are two profiles, not one profile.

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course they are two profiles. I don't think anyone doubts that.

 

But they are two profile of characterists that are identicle to each other. That's the point.